loose vagina and possible bladder prolapse

It does sound like you have some sort of prolapse going on particularly as you describe a bulge on the front wall (cystocele). If you go to the home page you will find a description called "the prolapse self exam" under the "Articles" and "Resources" section.

One of the ladies who has been through menopause will be better at answering your question about that and changes to the vagina.

I myself have 2 children, one vaginal delivery 6 years ago (VERY traumatic) and one c-section 19 months ago and I discovered my prolapse about 6/7 months ago. Mine really bother me too but I am hoping that continuing with this work I will get to a place so many other women have already reached when things feel stable and comfortable.

As for Kegels its really trying to find a balance that works for you and what you feel helps you. I started doing hundreds a day and then read on this site that that is not a good thing as it tires the muscle out so now I do 2 to 3 sets of 10 strong ones a day holding each for 10 seconds. I also try to remember to do one when picking anything up, especially my daughter.

Continue having a look around and reading all the information and getting the book. I am guilty of having the book but not read it all yet so that is somethign I MUST do.

Take care,

Anita

P.S. I am also in the UK.

P.S.S. Strong smelling urine does seem to me to indicate an infection. I would see your GP again. If you have a cystocele they can prevent the bladder from emptying properly. You will find tips on the homepage on how to empty the bladder completely. Christine recomends getting on hands and knees in the shower. I haven't tried that one as I seem to be emptying quite well at the moment.

I keep posting replies to people and then hit a button by mistake and it disappears - grrr. I just posted a reply to this and whoosh, gone.

Anyway I said something like laxity is exactly what prolapse is, our vaginal walls are herniating into the vaginal canal. Pelvic floor exercises will more than likely not help the prolapse but can help greatly with stress or urge incontinence. Some ladies find them very helpful and some only do the minimal amount to keep leaking at bay.

If you are not suffering any pain or discomfort from your prolpases then there is no need to ever consider surgery. As for the lack of sensation then pelvic floor exercises should help with that. They do take time to see results so be patient.

Its so hard dealing with all this and I for one would love my 18 year old vagina back!

I am sorry for the delay in responding. I know how much you want to see a reply when you ask something.

Anita

Such a pretty name, by the way. Unfortunately looseness also means they can easily be moved about, so no I don't think they would be tighter. At least that seems reasonalble to me. I am no expert and I'm finding that the more I figure out, the less I want to know. Surely a lot of this has to be normal aging? At least that is what I'm telling myself today. How did you get your pretty name? Kit

Hi Zabadee

It is a depressing thought, isn't it. However, all is not lost. It may be that your vaginal opening is indeed larger than it was, due to incomplete healing after childbirth or episiotomy, full stop, or even perhaps prolapses eroding the area. If your pelvic floor muscles don't do a lot during sex that will not help either. Waking them up and getting them working again will help, and you may need some help from a skilled physiotherapist and equipment. I don't think it is ever too late to do something about an unresponsive pelvic floor, especially when it comes to sex.

The other thing is posture. When in Wholewoman posture the pelvic floor is tight. The ischial spines are at their maximum distance apart and the pubis is as far away from the coccyx as it is possible to get. The whole complex sheet of muscles is pulled tight like a drum, as the opening of the pelvic floor is at its maximum. When you think about it, it doesn't sound right. How can the pelvic floor be tightest when its size is largest?? It just is. It is about geometry too complex for me to explain.

Now for TMI, If you have sexual penetration when in WW posture your pelvic floor will be tightest and produce more friction. Your vagina will also be deeper. You can get your pelvis into the same orientation as WW posture in several positions for sex. Think on hands and knees with back hollow for rear entry. Think lying on your back with a little pillow in the small of your back and your arms stretched out over your head, hanging onto the bedhead (you need a strong bedhead with easy uprights to hang onto at pillow level for this - woo-hoo!). Think straddling your partner, leaning forward with a good lumbar curve. Think lying on your side with back entry, but with your hips flexed and your torso at right angles to his (not very good for cuddling, but great for penetration). Try lying on your back, then when he is in, cross your feet and knees so you can grip his penis with your thighs (shallower penetration but very effective friction, especially with Bliss Balm on your upper, inner thighs). You can do similar things lying on your front, by gripping his penis with your buttocks. It is only limited by your imagination once you get the hang of what you can do with your body by changing how the parts work together.

Happy experimenting!! Hope it works.

Louise
:-)

That was fantastic! You took the depression factor right out of that equation. Lovely, isn't it, all the possibilities...so much sweet lemonade to be made...my personal approach has been much the same...you just gave me so many more ideas! I had been wondering what the heck Christine meant by having sex in the posture...just hadn’t thought to ask yet. So much to learn, I feel like a baby yet with many toys to discover...you're one awesome Aussie!! Kit

OK a little off topic but....

Becoming disabled changes your sexuality in a BIG way

But - You find ways around this - Men age too and everything changes - Things don't work like they used to ya know...

If you think you have a front wall prolapse of bladder - There is a self test that I have found so far to be correct...

Put two fingers up there (standing is best)

If you feel a sausage you can run your fingers in a circle round - Thats uterus
If you feel like a sausage behind a wall to front - thats bladder
To the rear (same sausage behind same wall lol) thats bowel

But - Whether you have one or not - You can still enjoy sex and it can get better and better as you both age with experimenting as Louise said...

I have found that doing some Kegels has made him feel me more - But too many made the area overtight (and TMI here - But if a female does soooooooo many and orgasms she can during this squeeeze him out - lolol)

Anyways...

There are many ways you can still have a great sex life :-)

And if you have a prolapse - Dont let this dictate to you in any way what your life and sex life will be like :-)

Remember moderation.... Too many of anything can be bad :-)

All will be well OK
Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

So it's a bit looser than it was - No biggie - life goes on eh :-)

Too many onlu made it too tight at one moment - Made the prolapse much WORSE and felt draggier at all times...

Do not feel inadequate.

Posture is written about on the site alot - And a link to a picture is also in the FAQs...

All will be well, where there is life there is hope ya know

:-)

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Zabedee, I woke up thinking of you--this has happened to me with several others here, as well, so I am getting used to it. I’ve not been here very long, a few months maybe, and I’m still trying to find my way--with how to heal myself and how to help others.

You mention feeling inadequate. As Sue so wisely put it ‘All will be well, where there is life there is hope ya know.’ She is so right, and you can trust in her wisdom because from what I’ve learned through her sharing is that life has brought her some pretty great trials. Trials bring clarity and clarity so often brings the gift of wisdom. Sue has earned her wisdom. Take what she has earned and use it for
a while. It won’t be long until your own trials bring you the wisdom that you will then share.

I so well remember the feeling of inadequacy, accompanied by the feeling that I had let myself down, let my body down, let my husband down, etc. etc.. It held a sadness I hope to never feel again, at least for a long, long time. I understand where you are, which I guess is why I got out of bed at 3:00am to write to you.

I want you to know that the feelings will pass. They may come and visit from time to time for a while till you find your feet and walk strongly again. And then they may try to trip you up at times. But they will not stay to be your daily companion. If you want another assertion of this, seek out Zelda. Even with the difficulties she’s faced, she will tell you that it does get better. You will find your way.

I am coming to believe that the center of our emotions and life energy lies not in our physical hearts, or even just in our heads, but rather circulates through-out our bodies and certainly through our core. I have to believe that after experiencing the grief I felt. It was an uncommon grief never accompanying other ailments I’ve experienced. I really felt the core of my emotional being had been assaulted. I believe I read something Christine posted recently where she was discovering the wonderful mysteries of how all of this works. I look forward to her next book. She has a gift for writing that you will enjoy.

As to your love life—this is what I have found to be true. As you feel this part of your life threatened, you will also feel how intensely valuable it is and grow fiercely protective of it. Whatever value it had before, it will be amplified. And I’ve found that there is so much more to sex than intercourse, not that you will in any way have to give that up. When you find your ground again, you might very well find that all of your senses have deepened and your experiences so much more intense than before. You will find your way here. Give it time.

Others will come, I trust, and continue to help you with your physical symptoms. There is a truly wonderful body of support here. Getting started on healing exercise is so important to your body and to your spirit. I trust that others will come and add to, or subtract from what I’ve said here, also. Like I said, I am still very new here. There is a balance to be found here…so many voices and so many choices, you can sort through it all and find what feels true for you.

Take care of yourself-- be as gentle and as forgiving as you can of your spirit and your body. Seek whatever help you need. And remember Sue’s advice… All will be well, where there is life there is hope ya know (I think I'm going to frame that bit of wisdom and keep it very near).

It is 4:00am now. I am going back to bed. Kit

The book says (About vaginas and sex) page 114

The reason vaginal caliber does not significantly affect male sexual experience that distension of the vaginal walls, usually accompanied by cystocele/rectocele makes the lower vagina fuller and therefore better able to provide friction for the penis, etc

So I wouldnt worry about that looseness you feel maybe - He might think things are better (Men prolly don't notice things that we think they will notice anyways

:-)

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Antibiotics tend to create a vicious cycle of infections because they destroy the healthy intestinal flora. For a bladder infection, try LOTS of water, cranberry pills, and a drop of iodine a day. Also cut out sugars and take probiotics to replace the healthy flora in your gut.

Zabadee,

I'm 56 and yes, the vagina does seem to all of a sudden seem more open. I think there is a shrinking of tissues during perimenopause and then menopause caused by a lessening of estrogen. I first noticed it in the car. I noticed that when I sat in the car, I had to collect myself or I felt as if I was sitting on the inside of my belly button!

This is the time to really begin to take care of yourself. You can do some deep kegels, and for some it helps. Try this: stand with your feet apart but straight as if you were walking. Bend over at the hip - not the waist - and aim the top of your head at the floor. The hope is to be able to kind of fold with a straight back. Then grab your ankles with your hands and relax. Breathe deeply and then do five really strong kagels right through your core and hold, hold, hold. It will strengthen a lot of muscles and make that feeling less prominent.

I tried HRT with no success bringing back the tissues. Some women use vaginal hormones to try to plump things up, but I didn't go that route. I do a lot of yoga which helps me all over. You'll get used to it in time and lots of exercising will help.

Glad you found us!

Judy

I've had some of my concerns answered and gained much info. I have been diagnosed w possible bladder prolapse, and wondered if s-e-x helped anyone...I am in a dry spell...but "did it" the other day and it seemed so much better. And also, has anyone used a pessary? I'm trying to give up being embarassed about this. I've had 7 kiddos. I am done with menopause, 49. Yeah!

Thanks so much.

Grace,
Blue

Blue,

Nice you dropped in. The help here is absolutely wonderful. Hope you find this forum as good as I do.

I think Louise should answer your question about sex.

Judy

Hi Blue

And thankyou Judy for your very complementary introduction. You can all stop clapping now, and listen carefully.

Really Blue, all I can suggest is that you go with what feels good, and there's nothing IMAO that makes me feel better than a good ...

Some women experience pain with sex when there is prolapse. Some don't. Also remember that penetration is not the beginning and end of sex. There is a lot of other lovely stuff to make you feel loved and beautiful. Lubrication is important so nothing gets dragged around, especially in the second half of the cycle or during the last two or three decades of being sexually active (Was there a first two decades?).

I always try and empty my bladder properly beforehand (or just put the old man on hold for a minute halfway through) while I pay a visit. It doesn't hurt to take them along for a lovely ride then just desert them at the last minute. It is all spice! As long as you deliver when you get back, that is! Then you can really let go without worrying about drowning one or both of you. Sorry if TMI!

Also, I think constipation can sometimes contribute quite a bit of pain to sex, especially with prolapse, because there are lumps where there are not supposed to be lumps. So keeping your bowel 'light' will probably enhance the experience.

Position is everything. If you try and maintain WW posture during sex all your organs will be better supported and your pelvic floor will be tighter, because the bones that these muscles are joined to are stretched far apart. The pelvic floor muscles become a bit like a drum skin. You can do this on top, underneath (using a little pillow in the small of your back), or on your side. Having your arms raised can also help to pull it all up as well (the rails on the bed end?) It is all trial and error and adapting to your body if it changes. Pain is not good for anyone. And often positioning is the key to preventing pain.

The bottom line is to experiment with what works, which is easy if you have a partner who understands what is happening in your body. Not so easy if you don't know him well. You might need to be firm about your preferences and not say why, or just say, "So it doesn't hurt me", no need to go into the details. Bad sex is not worth it. And it works both ways. He will like to be considered too. Mutual enjoyment and caring for each other is a good aim in a good relationship.

Another hint, stay away from firm young men - useful as eye candy only! Older, more experienced, and even slightly stretched men will understand much better about a body that has a few imperfections, and will probably have more idea of what they are doing.

I find that Wholewoman posture makes me feel (dare I say it?) sexier than I have ever felt before, so I am a bit biased, but there you go. Enough from me, the old hornbag.

Cheers

Louise

ps I really don't understand what many young people find distasteful about the idea of their parents having frequent sex. I would have thought that it was affirmation that you don't have to give it up just after your thirtieth birthday? Perhaps it just takes a while for the penny to drop.

Wow, Louise!

This place is great and thank you so much.

I had an umm widely varied sex life when younger (7 kids) and have been feeling odd/old because by choice I have not been sexually active after my mate left. He was also abusive and there is other trauma going on with custody/court.

I have not been emotionally ready, but I miss it terribly, not just sex, but the intimacy that goes with it. It is so wonderful to hear mature women talk about sex, as it is can be a truly good thing.

I have other body issues, mostly injuries from ex, but I look great and dont feel almost 50.

Funny that you said that about younger men. He was 17 yrs younger than I, we were together 10 yrs and our love life was rocky. I was actually celibate before he left, too.

I have been very hesitant to even think about a love life, but I am getting there. I have felt self concsious about myself because of the ex and the whole bladder thing on top of his abuse made me feel like I was a pariah. After reading the posts, I see I am not an outcast. I actually feel lucky it is not worse because I'm a grand mulitpara! What a title!

Can you tell me more about "the posture"?

Grace,

Blue

Some of my injuries include a previously broken pubic bone healed together crooked, not in line, a previously broken tailbone, and a damaged L5 and severe pain in hip...not yet identified...could these be related to bladder prolapse? I have been extremely active all my life, homesteading, fire wood, carried water, horses, kids and etc...sled dogs now...do you have a clue how this all would play in?

Grace,

Blue

Hi Blue

Words fail me. You have been through so much pain already. I am so happy that my reply brought you some reassurance. I take my hat off to you as a bigtime mother and woman. ((Blue))

Blue, you will find out more about the posture from www.wholewoman.com in the FAQ's, but more importantly from Christine Kent's book, Saving the Whole Woman, which has the throetical basis for it. This will help you understand how your injuries may have affected your body prolapsewise. It has lots of anatomical illustrations which I have found very helpful in getting a deeper understanding of how this amazing human body works. You will also find a lot of posts on posture where we have discussed it in the past. It is a bit of an evolving story, as we all experience it differently and find out more about what works and what does not. Wholewoman has only been in existence since 2004 and we are all learning together, underpinned by the years of research that has been done by Christine. There is sometimes pain and discomfort associated with adjusting your posture and getting your body moving better but the payoff has been there for me. I have been doing this work now for over three years and it has made an amazing difference for me. I hope it will for you too. I cannot really comment on whether or not your injuries could have something to do with your prolapses, except to say that you may have a lot of residual scarring which may interfere with the way your bones, muscles and fascia support your whole body.

The difference has been both in minimising prolapse symptoms and in my general attitude towards myself and my body. I have been very fortunate to have never suffered physical violence but have experienced deep unhappiness and lack of intimacy in my marriage for the first 25 years. I will simply say that it took its toll, but is now happily resolved thanks to a miracle. I am not going to let 25 years of impersonal and very ordinary sex get in the way of the next 25 years of enjoying what we have now built out of the ashes of the old marriage.

I really hope you can bring your current difficulties to a resolution that will enable you to move on and heal, and get on with your life and get some more of that intimacy and happiness stuff. Keep calling back to the Forum with questions and comments.

Cheers

Louise

Golly - I'm here to tell you that my heart wrapped around that woman.
I LOOOOVE her voice.

I just went back and read her Post to Zabadee down below. For the first time.

She speaks and I hear the voice of the Goddess, of all wise women Before
REVERBERATING out of those little back letters.

Oh my. And in an unusual way ... Words fail me.
From my core,
Zelda

Hi Zelda,

I received an email yesterday from a very kind and sweet soul. The sort of person who would gather us all if she could into a warm and healing embrace. She provided one for me, by providing me with you.

Thank you for your thoughts. I know they are genuine because that is the only way you know how to be. You have affected me greatly from the beginning. You have imprinted on my heart in that enduring way that will stay with me forever and feed and teach me each day.

You humble me now. It is a warm and gentle and sweet humbleness that makes me want to wrap myself in it and give from this place for the rest of my life. It feels like home to me. I know my guides when they come. You certainly are One.

I am trying to find how I can fit here again. I miss you all so much. I am
equipped to handle the pain of one, or a few, that has been my constancy for as long as I can remember. But coming to care for so many in pain was a new experience for me, and one that I wasn’t equipped for…not yet, anyway. It has been said that pain is part of the process here, and of course it is. It is natural and expected. But that knowing does not offer me the natural protection that it does most, and I don’t really want it to. I could, most likely, seek it out and shelter myself with it if I tried. But if I shield myself from the pain of others, that shielding will also affect the way I offer back. Zelda, I wrote these words to you-- ‘from the soul of my own soul.’ Those are not the words of a shielded heart and spirit. You helped me to see that. If I get what I want and find my way back here it will be in unshielded, unguarded, openness. I have thought about it so much in these past weeks. If anything I want more openness, more unguarded-ness. I want to know how you and every other soul here feels. I don’t want shields of any kind…except the shield of love, of course. I’m sure there is an answer-- I’ve just to find it.

And Zelda, I have to ask while I am here, from every cell in my body, I ask you to please never hurt yourself again. I have no doubt, not one, that if you were standing near any woman here and you saw her begin to fall, you would dive under to soften her landing, gentle her fall, dry her tears and hold her till she could rise again. You must do this for yourself also. I know it is hard for you. Your life’s cohesiveness is seemingly non-existent. You are being assaulted on so many levels and have lost so much…for now. I have faith that it will change. I hope you can find a way back to Nature. I think it feeds you in a way that nothing else can. In Nature, there is enduring permanence. All the lessons for how to live are there in the soil and grass and water and rocks and animals and trees—all of it surrounded by unending openness. There is such freedom to be found, so many lessons to be learned, so many gifts just for the taking, we don’t even have to ask for them, they are already provided for us. If you can’t hike like you want, you can go out and spread a blanket on the ground and let the earth mother you a bit. I thought that the oddest suggestion when first proposed to me. Complicated and life-enhancing story but after a particular experience I was told that I needed to be grounded, to let some energy return to the earth. I though it a bunch of hooey, fledgling that I am, but it was a beautiful day so I did as suggested. There are not words for how it made me feel. I have always liked to play in the dirt, love to garden, love the soil, composting, all of it, so it should not have been that much of a stretch for me to see how joining with the earth could be of benefit. I think that just proves how programmed we are. It made me want to explore within reason the wonders around us and the wonder of us. Zelda, if you hurt yourself, know you are hurting me, and so many others who care so deeply for you. Next time, take a stick and lash out at water—you will make lovely ripples that settle again into calming peace. You will turn pain into beauty. I’ll be back when I find my way. Know that I am in a good place and that I think of you each day. Love, Kit

Will you be my Valentine ?

I had been debating "bugging" you with an email, for days now.
Well the days since I've transitioned. Not to say I expect only calm waters.... tee hee
The catharsis of that action has been profound - for lack of words. I wanted you to
know the shift and be released from any worry. I know my posts have been hard to
follow. Some of you may even avoid them...

What is more feminine than water ?
It is soft and yielding,
Yet nothing impedes
Its homeward flow to the Ocean,
And cliffs fall
Under water's constant caress.

This is obvious to all
But will it apply to your life ?

Master softness,
Don't push against the obstacle;
Yield and flow
yield and flow.

Attack disease and invite battle;
Surrender to Love
And know true victory.

Like water, truth embraces
Both stone and starlight.

pg 78,"The Tao of Healing"
by Haven Trevino

Yes, yes, dear Zelda, I would be honored to be your Valentine. How could I resist such an offer?… And thank you for the poem. It is so very, very lovely. I must buy that book for myself.

You know, I believe (yes, I can hear the chorus singing!!), I believe that I have landed upon why you affect me as you do…

Okay, stay with me here…

We can all be bright sunshine (joy, joy, joy),

Fresh misty days (love those, much chance for reflection, you know),

Cloudy quietness (still good, maybe a ‘why’ or two? but nothing serious),

Or stormy weather (I’d rather not define this one so early in the morning),

depending on our moods and circumstance… you know, whether we were just given a home baked cookie or someone just stole our last Dove Dark Chocolate!! or all things before, between and beyond…

But you, Zelda (Zelda, wake up!!, I’m getting to the good part!!), you experience each shift with an uncommon pureness…remember, I’ve just landed on this thought so I’m still on the surface…

Take your sweet Valentine invitation. Who else would have thought of that? And who could have offered it like it was not just sunshine, but pure sunshine?…it seems to dance because it is so ‘of light.’

Groan…I know…why can’t Kit just say ‘thank-you’ and leave it at that?... I’m sure I leave so many with a headache…sorry people, hope you have some Tylenol handy…I think I may need some myself, by the way.

I read here a couple of hours yesterday. Oh, I miss so many of you so very much. A few I’d like to shake into reason, some I’d love to embrace, others-- just sit at your wise feet and listen. I have no right to any, I know, I truly do. I wish all of you some sunlight today; too heavy a cloud cover can cause a loss of perspective. Focus can so easily shift where heartache shields our blessings from view…take care with that. Much love, Kit

reflected in the mirror you hold up for me to see ...
I have sought a fierce integrity with myself that is brutal and maybe even unkind at times.
Like Anita and others have said so very well... but I'm sure I'll say dramaticallyy... This POP has run long sharp blades
into the very core of my spirit. Way beyond anything previous. I have thought that the death of a child would
be similar. I think in a way I've witnessed my own death. That Woman has contributed her DNA but little
else remains.

For months now I've been mostly aware of a sort of - oh hell what are those balls pasted all over
with little squares of mirror they hang 'em in dance halls "n roller rinks ? - Any way one of those
things .. a Mirror-ball of pain and grief, but worst of all was the Anger. Never ever have I ever come
even close to such rage - and I'm irish, a little. Part of it was the timing, when I needed to be strong for
my Family - To BRING My Family back together, make money, clean house, play, I not only fell down hard
but had all the air knocked out of me. It def.felt a bit mean-spirited on the part of the Divine Spirit. I hated
this Mirror-ball, the damn thing just wouldn't quit spinning ! I wished it stop, I was nauseous and wished I could
just throw it all up. I wretched until I had dry heaves with little relief. I wanted to get OFF the ride. I hope I never feel that way again.

So I smacked myself into my new life.

I'm currently making friends with the Mirror-Ball. In fact I've noticed that there is a bright beautiful mirror
there that each of you have contributed. Thanks for reminding me that Love IS All that matters. Each one of you
does it in her own way. Even the darkest posts, regretting children. Remind me that the further we get from
love the more pain.

To build up
Dismantle first
To expand
Contract first
To attain clarity
Allow confusion
To become civilized
First live in the wild.

The balance of all things
Is in their opposites:

The truth points in both directions.
Thus the clenched fist holds weakness within
And the open hand offers the hidden power of suns.

Deny one-half of yourself,
Stand precariously on one foot.

again from- "The Tao of Healing"
written by another reverberating Woman, Haven Trevino

Or run around in circles, which ever you prefer.
Makes me think of all those"Nail one foot to the floor"
jokes- my 12 yr old boy just told me a bunch. I'll have
him repeat them and listen with my new ear.

Thanks for all the helping hands. You GALS Rock in every way.
Zelda

Hi zabadee,

I am new to this site and have not had much time to read many of the topics but yours was of much interest. I am the same age as you and one year ago I went to therapy to get rid of the loose vagina feeling and feeling of having to urinate constantly at night before bed. The kegals help with that but the air escaping from my vagina thing continues all the time. I do not exaggerate about the air thing at all. Thank goodness my boyfriend does not believe I have any problems as they do not affect our intimacy. But all of the bodily changes are making me feel extremely uncomfortable.

I fully relate to how you are feeling and before the kegals thought I had a huge gaping hole in my vagina. I am just falling apart bit by bit. I am only 47 no wonder my mother is clinically depressed as she has suffered with incontinence, uterine problems and much more the past 20 years.

I realize it could be worse yet the changes are coming on so fast and I have other issues in addition to my female problems. I could jump out of my skin some days and fight crying as I do not want to end up like my mother.

I am here to provide you with support and a shoulder to cry on if you need it. Lord knows I do some days.

Oh, what is this about too many kegals can be harmful??? I read on one of the threads that one woman performs 700 per day. Also, didn't I read that you had a C-section? If so, why are you having the same issues with your bladder and vagina as one who has had a vaginal birth? I thought my issues were due to the vaginal birth and I have been cursing my obgyn for not performing a c-section on me.
Be well,
belianne

Hey Zelda

Thanks so much for another little treasure from this book. I think I need a copy.

Louise

hi there
just wanted to address some of the questions in your post
too many kegels....I haven't found any scientific reason to believe that too many can be harmful, but I personally have found that to be so. I think also, the position you are in when doing them matters. my mw had me doing kegels on my back, and I think it helped pull my rectocele down. now I only do a few kegels a day with the plies in teh ballet workout (from the book) and that's enough for me.

the question about why a woman who has had a c/s vs vaginal delivery would wind up with POP seems like a bad joke, doesn't it? you'd think the silver lining to a c/s would be an intact perineum. however, c/s is major surgery. they pretty much dissect away your pelvic organs and mess up the fascial supports and then stitch you back together. so instead of the trauma falling on the muscular walls of the vaginal canal, the trauma to the pelvic support system is from above.
and even more upsetting are the women who've never birthed a baby and yet find themselves with POP. so yes, vaginal delivery is oftentimes the cause, but it is not the only cause.

Hello
Thank you for all the information.

My biggest issue now with my perio-menopausal symtoms is the air that escapes from my vagina. It was so bad yesterday as it was non-stop all day long. No one can tell but it is more than evident to me. The doc and therapist tell me that the kegals should help and they do for incontinence. I suppose they help a bit for the air but that problem has to mainly be due to my misplaced bladder. I am convinced of that now. If this air bubble stuff would disappear I would feel a lot more comfortable. My sister has suggested that I try accupuncture.
Be well,
belianne

I *think that the air bubbles are due to the prolapse holding the vaginal walls open. then air can get in. then the prolapse shifts around (its not a stable thing, just organs moving around) and that traps the air and lets it out. that's what it seems like to me.
others here have tried acupunture, I have no idea if it is useful or not. my impression, though, is that anything that will help your overall state of health and wellbeing is good for prolapse, indirectly at least.
however, prolapse itself is a structural problem, and I'm not sure how acupuncture would directly affect that. In theory, if you could get your bladder up and over your pubic bones, your vagina would be able to flatten and stay closed, and no air would get in. as far as kegels, I'm at a loss as to how they would do this either. all kegels do is strengthen the muscles, not reposition the bladder.

I am sure what gmom is right because after each baby I get that trapped air bubbles feeling and it is very annoying and then as time goes on and I practice the posture the feeling gets better and better. I can't remember how long it took last time once I started the posture but I was at the point where it went away completely so I guess my bladder went up enough by being supported by the pelvic bone that it could stay closed. That was a huge relief. This time 4 months pp I still have it some days a lot and some days not at all but it is getting better slowly.

Hi All

I just had a really wierd and a bit scary thought. I am thinking that perhaps the vaginal walls are not being held open, but there has been a landslide underneath that has taken away the floor. This landslide might be cystocele or rectocele. This leaves a bit of a vacuum in the vagina, where there is now a cave (echo echo ...). This may put sucking pressure on the uterus to fall and fill in the cave. If you have had an hysterectomy that cave will be the same one that the small intestine will be sucked down into (enterocele /collapse of vaginal vault that happens after 40% of hysterectomies). Once the uterus has fallen in, the air bubbles should no longer be there, or else will reform during Downward Dog and similar postures, then spontaneously be expelled when you are upright again and everything settles at the lowest point.

The good news is that the uterus will form the third part of the nature's pessary plug and help to support the cystocele and rectocele, and voila, you reach this mythical? stage of stabilisation of prolapses.

I hope I am not being a prophet of doom here in suggesting that these air bubbles are the warning of impending uterine prolapse because I don't *know* that this theory is true, but in a glass half full / glass half empty kind of way they may eventually just go away as the cave fills and the woman reaches a point of stabilisation. They may just be a normal part of the process for some women, ie the falling of the uterus is not all bad.

Cheers(?)

Louise

I think you're theory makes more sense than mine. maybe that's why my air bubbles stopped....nature's pessary at work for you!

Hi,
Thank you for your informative post.

What is the "posture" you mentioned? If I could get the posture to either stop or reduce the air bubbles I would be so contented.

Thanks,
belianne

Hi Belianne

Wholewoman work is based on carrying your pelvic organs further forward than you have probably been carrying them in the past. By changing the curves in your spine slightly you can tilt your pelvis forward slightly so that gravity pushes your pelvic organs over your pubic bone, rather than over the pelvic floor, which is not really designed to carry weight. It is a very female posture.

Have a look at the FAQ's at www.wholewoman.com, where you can find out the basics of this Wholewoman posture, that underpins the management of pelvic organ prolapse without surgery.

Cheers

Louise

I've been thinking about her theory with a vacuum being created.
I think she nailed it too.
What could you do ? A straw of some form keeps coming to mind.
I have experienced this ever so minimally and have followed this thread
as my heart goes out to you. This POP business is annoying enough
without that. Good luck and I hope this is a stage that will go away.
Zelda

Hi All

Here's another bit to think about.

The following suggestion only applies to women who have all their pelvic organs. If you have had a hysterectomy or other repair stop reading now, or it may cause worse problems than air bubbles!! ie further prolapse.

If my theory about air bubbles is correct, and it is a *big* if, it depends on the integrity of the fascia holding up whatever has not fallen.

*If* you accept the theory that when the uterus also descends to join the cystocele and rectocele low in the vagina, and are OK with the possibility of that happening (as it often seems to do eventually), you might be able to use the cave effect to reduce the symptoms of cystocele and rectocele by sucking them up with a vacuum. I have no idea whether or not this would work, or even if it might be useful, but it might contribute to understanding the air bubbles phenomenon.

I find that if I have an understanding of a process I am no longer afraid of it, and if I am no longer afraid, it has no power over me and I can get on with my life.

Here is a little exercise to try. Get yourself into a position like the yoga pose Downward Dog, ie with your feet and hands on the ground and your butt in the air. I get into this position and relax my belly, and a bit whoosh of air goes into my vagina. Thank goodness I don't have a Webcam! If I stand up straight away it comes farting out again, which one woman described as being "very embarrassing at yoga class"! Now do it again. This time, but instead of standing up straight away, set your tummy muscles rigid. This squeezes your abdomen contents and puts a little pressure on your pelvic floor and expels the air more slowly, while you are in Downward Dog, instead of a big fart when you stand up. Then stand up into Wholewoman posture, relax your lower belly, and assess what your prolapses are doing. You might be able to feel the sensation of the cystocele and rectocele rising up when you relax your lower belly, and being held there by the vacuum created by getting rid of the air in the cave.

If you have all three prolapses like me it feels good and stable (cos there is no uterus up high, trying to fill the cave with air again, but if you only have cystocele and rectocele the air may gradually find its way in again and they will fall again. I have no idea how long it would work for, if at all, but the effect is probably similar to that challenging stomach vacuum exercise from YouTube that we talked about previously. You might be able to do it for a period of time if your pelvic organs are held in place well enough by the downward pressure of the sacrum, as described by Christine in Wholewoman posture.

Actually I have just had a lightbulb moment and realised that this is the essence of what I do if I suddenly need a wee on standing up after lying down or sitting in the car for a long time. It just pins the bladder in position so the pressure is taken off the urethra, so the urgency decreases.

It would be good if a few of you could give this wierd exercise of mine a try and see if you can get it to suck up your pelvic organs and for how long. Or tell us if it contributes to your understanding of what is happening in your pelvic cavity.

BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO EXPERIENCE YOUR UTERUS DROPPING. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYONE EXPERIENCING FURTHER PROLAPSE AFTER DOING THIS EXERCISE. IT IS ENTIRELY UNTESTED. I THINK THERE ARE OTHER THINGS IN EVERYDAY LIFE THAT ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO PROLAPSE YOUR UTERUS, BUT YOU DO THIS EXERCISE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Cheers

Louise

I want to thank kit for writing this. I know it was written a long time ago but hit me right to my soul... Thank you, Thank you!

Thanks for bringing this post to my attention. I read another older thread yesterday and also enjoyed it so much. I think I should spend more time reading and less time writing! But I have to say something about this - women in love with each other. It's so beautiful and how I wish I had a dear close friend. Is there an acronym for crying out loud?

We are all on this crazy journey trying to figure things out and that I am finding how much I love being a woman right now. As hard as this condition is on my emotions at times I feel sooo lucky to have this circle of woman holding hands and coming together to help and support eachother. I love this!! I have such appreciation for all of us!! I am proud to be a woman at this time and I think that I never truly understood the power and beauty of women.... We are all on this journey together and in saying so I hold respect and love to al of you for being here with me!!

Louise,
i tried it and I am the one who has everything outside the body all the time, and it worked for several seconds. That is the first time I have been standing up and not had everything outside of the body. It was only a few seconds but it did work and did feel good. I think it is worth pursuing. Also, I have realized that I don't really know how to relax my stomach muscles fully. i am practicing. Thanks for experimenting.

A few more minutes have passed and I have sat some and walked some and still the organs are staying more inside. I am getting encouraged. I am also making sure to keep my belly relaxed. thanks

Louise I am so encouraged. Doing your weird exercise gave me revelation that I was not relaxing my lower belly. I thought I was but sucking in as I stood up and then releasing the stomach muscles showed me what relaxed really means. I did the DVD workout keeping, with a struggle, my lower belly truly relaxed and my organs stayed in part of the time and only a little out the rest of the time.
I must be doing something wrong with the firebreathing part though because I looked at the dictionary of movements and am trying to do it right but when I breathe in I feel my organs lift but when I hold my stomach in and blow out I feel the pressure of the cervix coming down again. The nauli does not do that but breathing out especially forcefully does. Can you guess what I am doing wrong? Thank you so much. Also the leaning over the chair before you sit down really helps as well. thank you thank you thank you so much!

Have you tried jiggling before the firebreathing? I have noticed that if I don't get my uterus up there a lttle higher, the firebreathing isn't as effective. I happen to love firebreathing and have really been working at getting my body in the correct position to do it in. I found the best explanation on Christine's third wheel yoga DVD. She does both the standing and hands and knees positions.
After jiggling, I like to do the hands and knees position firebreathing, keeping my head aligned. I noticed that I was raising my head up, which didn't help. I was also bending my elbows too much.
For me anyway, keeping my head aligned with my body and keeping my elbows straight, helped me with the rest. And, I would imagine having a tail on my tailbone, breathing in deeply raising my tail and filling my belly as full as I could. And then, sucking in my belly button as I release the air through pursed lips. I even put my fingers inside to see if I could feel the suction, and I could! It took me awhile to get all the components right for me, but like I said, I do love firebreathing.

Thanks Graceful, all very excellent points about how to really make FB work the way it was meant to! - Surviving

Hi Savtasavav

Christine tells us to exhale through pursed lips. :-X

I would prefer to reword that. don't purse your lips. Just make a big circle with them, like you are trying to fog up a mirror before wiping it to clean it. If your purse your lips tight, to the point where you feel your cheeks expanding withthe outbreath, this will build up intraabdominal pressure and make your organs try and come out of your vagina. If mouth is more open there is no resistance to the air coming out, and you can possibly feel your diaphragm moving up and sucking your pelvic organs further inside you on the exhale. I find that pulling my belly button up under my chest works better for me than belly button to spine. It makes my upper back hump, but keeps some lumbar curve. If I suck my belly to my spine, my butt tends to tuck and my lumbar curve goes. Then I feel my organs in my vulva because they have slipped off the back of my pubic bones. The more you do these manoeuvres the more aware you will become of where your organs are.

I am so glad you have worked out how to relax your belly! You can practise this, last thing at night, in bed, before you go to sleep. Put your hands on your belly and breathe gently, feeling your hands rising and falling.

Louise

Good points Louise! I will actually try to incorporate these ideas into my firebreathing!!

From my reading of Christine’s instructions for firebreathing P167, Christine says, on the exhale, “to contract the abdominal muscles in and up in all directions. Imagine the muscles and fascia contracting on the front AND sides of your belly.” So I think this would include lifting the navel up as well as in. Although I don't see why this would necessitate the humping of your back.

She also says to purse your lips on the exhale and “breathe steadily out through this small opening. This will create resistance.” And I have only ever imagined pursing as relaxed, but then I can whistle. My understanding is that the resistance (slight though it be) is key to the exhale and subsequent lifting of organs and the avoidance of interference from intra-abdominal pressure.

The open mouthed, rounded exhale is recommended by the medical profession for inducing a huffing cough which lifts guff off the lungs and certainly is very useful if applied for that reason.

Comparing the two exhales in firebreathing posture I do find a difference in the tightening of the abdominal muscles which strangely enough mimic the shape of my mouth. Accordingly, it is the pursed mouth one which results in a narrower abdominal wall. Quoting Christine, “Upon completion of the exhalation you should have a hollow, narrow, pulled up abdominal wall.”

We need someone who is familiar with yoga to be able to tell us about the meaningfulness of breath.

Cheers, Fab