Newbie needs support!

only have a couple of minutes before the kids come looking for me

but in short

odds are really high that this will improve somewhat, especially if you learn the posture and take care to never strain on the toilet

odds are really good that you will not need surgery

what stage it is really doesn't matter, it changes for most of us from day to day and sometimes within the course of a day too

sex shouldn't be a problem. as with any postpartum sex, go slow and use lots of lube and you should be fine. the bladder is mobile and easily gets pushed out of the way.
unless you mean you don't know how sex is going to happen because you're so upset. if that's what you mean {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}} I've been there too. the psychological impact of prolapse was way worse than any of my physical symptoms.
it takes time.

but remember you are soooo early postpartum, things can (and will!) change.

ah, kids are calling.

but stick around, the women here are fab. supports

and congrats on the baby : )

Physcologically it's very hard, be kind to yourself and your body, I know a friend who said it took full 12 months after having a PP Prolapse, and now she feels fine I agree with her, I would personally wait 12 months, try not to do heavy lifting, try not to push hard on the toliet, look at your posture, rest and read lots of tips on this site, it's so helpful, great emotional support (as we have been through it) and great for tips to look after yourself physically

I wouldn't even worry about surgery don't think about that at all and there is definiately nothing stopping you having more children as many on the site have proved.

But just take care of yourself and enjoy your baby.

I will tell you I had a prolapse (it was the uterine when standing up was out of the vagina opening and I was so frightened, this was during my 2nd pregnancy and was so scared of having a natural birth but it all went fine and after my birth I think I felt bulky for about 4 months, by 12 months I notice nothing and would even know what I have, as I not had the doctor look since my 6 week checkup, I know I am still low or something, but I don't think about it too much and it definiately not affected my life or my sex life.
But I am always taking care of things.

Take your time regarding sex afterall you have just had a baby, and dealing with the emotions of a prolapse, I hope you have a understanding partner as it helps if you can talk about it openly and honestly.
Good luck (you will be fine:-)
Nicola

Just wanted to say welcome and just to add that things will most likely get much better to the point where it feels normal again. At 2 months pp I felt a bulge all the time which most of the time was lying right at the vaginal opening. By 3 months postpartum I felt almost completely normal again except right before I needed to have a bowel movement, then things would feel droopy but once I took care of that, things felt normal again. So at 3 months pp, I decided to give running a try (after 3 doctors gave me the go ahead to run again.) I did an easy 10 minute jog just to gauge how it would make my prolapse feel. That was 2 weeks ago and I'm still feeling the effects of that jog. The night I did it things fell back down almost like they were at 2 months. I'm definitely feeling better than I did 2 weeks ago but it's still not back to where it was before the run.

So I just wanted to share that because I feel like our bodies want to heal and will heal if we let them and work with them. Try to stay away from things that make your prolapse feel worse and listen to your body. As much as I want to get back to running, I'd rather take a year off now and maybe run again in the future, the work against my body by running now and maybe never run again without feeling like everything's going to fall out.

My 4th is 3.5 months old right now and I already know that things can improve vastly from the day you find your prolapse. I think the most important thing to remind yourself when you get upset and depressed is that prolapse is a long healing process. My friend had to take 6 months off running after a groin injury and I feel like this is a similar thing. Some injuries take a few weeks and your good as new, prolapse isn't like that. And if you do too much too fast, it can really hinder your healing. Sorry to ramble, I'm just really angry at my doctor right now, a supposed specialist in the pelvic floor field (he's a urogynocologist) who told me that I would never get any better and would most likely need surgery but that running was fine and I could go ahead and do it. Both of those statements have been DEAD WRONG. It makes me sad that he's not telling women number 1, what kind of things to stay away from while their bodies are healing from prolopse and number 2, what kinds of things they can do (posture, exercises, etc) to help their recovery. No wonder he told me I'd need surgery when I'm in my 50's (I'm 28,) if I followed his advice I definitely would!

Good luck with everything and enjoy your little one!

ARG

Hi Hunnb1974

I think you've got to realise that each woman's body is different. Once woman can resume running. Another cannot make it work. So it is with dancing. Some women find they can utilise WW posture during dancing, which is different from running in many ways. And there are so many forms of dance, some of which would be very difficult with prolapse, others not so difficult.

What is important is to not try and show the world you are superwoman. Just do what you can, and ensure that you don't push it too far. Your body is at maximum reversion time at the moment; there are many adjustments that it is making as it gets over pregnancy and birth. You have about another ten months of recovery before you can say your body is as good as it is going to be. Nobody really knows what you can and can't do. We are writing that story as we go along. It is all about exploring and assessing risks for yourself, and always working out how you can utilise WW posture 24/7.

Cheers

Louise

Hi arunnergirl & newbie,
I've been popping onto this site (pun intended) every once in a while. I am now 17 weeks postpartum, and my cystocele (which FREAKED ME OUT several weeks ago) is now much better. It really only bugs me when I bend over (like during housework). I am 35 years old, and I just had my first (Ingrid...so worth all the grief!), and I am breastfeeding exclusively.

Anyway, I used to love to run, even completing marathon. I was very eager to start again, and I ran at 4 weeks for a few days in a row, and then I discovered my cystocele :( . HOWEVER, I am totally confident that things will return to as normal as possible after my period returns. I found an article at runnersworld.com that I found very promising. Here's part of it:

PUBLISHED 10/19/2007

"Kimberley Anderson, 31, gave birth to a healthy baby boy last September. To stay fit during the final days of her pregnancy, Anderson walked and used an elliptical trainer. Once she gave birth, she couldn't wait to return to her regular 5-mile runs. But she had one problem: The pushing she did during childbirth had relaxed and lowered her pelvic organs, including her bladder. With a prolapsed bladder, she told us that she wasn't sure if she'd ever be able to run worry free.

To help Anderson, we consulted Toni Brayer, M.D., an expert in internal and sports medicine and chief of staff at the California Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco.

Dr. Brayer prescribes patience. A prolapsed bladder is common after pregnancy and often fixes itself over time, she says. Once Anderson no longer nurses her son, her estrogen levels will return to pre-pregnancy levels, and her internal organs will firm up and return to their normal positions.

Before Anderson resumes running, Dr. Brayer suggests that she let her menstrual cycle be her guide. When Anderson starts having periods again, that will be a sign that her hormones are back to normal. Then she can start slowly with easy walking and jogging. Until then, Anderson should stick with her pregnancy workout on the elliptical trainer, which minimizes the bouncing that can aggravate symptoms such as loss of bladder control.""

I plan to breastfeed at least another few months. So, I'll see how I feel then in regards to running.

My suggestions: Wear comfortable panties (use liners or pads if you need to), wear loose-fitting clothes (especially around the waist), don't strain or lift anything heavy, lay down in the mid afternoon or evening, check out the 'organs in place' at T-Tap.com, DON'T CHECK IT ALL THE TIME, and do your Kegels. Lastly, please don't freak out. You will cause yourslef needless worry for nothing. I was sooo consumed by my cystocele, and it upset me to the point where I was miserable, when I should have been enjoying my baby more!

Hi Jb

Look, I suspect that these publications play chinese whispers between interview and hard copy, but as a veteran of about 56 months of breastfeeding of three babies/toddlers, I seriously disagree with this Dr Brayer (donkey?).

Re,"Once Anderson no longer nurses her son, her estrogen levels will return to pre-pregnancy levels, and her internal organs will firm up and return to their normal positions." Yes, her oestrogen levels will return to normal, but if you wean gradually (which I see as ideal, but I know it doesn't always happen that way) your hormones kind of morph back to normal levels. Introduction of non-breastmilk foods will start that weaning process. However, I would not even think about it until 6 months; keep up the number of visits to the breast, night time feeding too, and baby won't even be interested in other foods. My first baby was still gagging on real foods, all mushed up, at 11 months, and I only resumed menstruation well after that. He was 17mo and partially breastfed when I was admitted to hospital for a month, so he was weaned suddenly. Different stories with the other babies.

I doubt that length of breastfeeding affects reversion in the pelvic area at all, or if it does, it happens in ways that we do not yet understand. Otherwise, why do we not hear from artificial-feeding-from-birth Mums saying they are fully recovered prolapse-wise after six months or so? and why do Mums on this Forum relate that weaning doesn't seem to make much difference? This may be a gross generalisation. However, "Comparison in recovery from postpartum prolapse between breastfeeding and artificially feeding Mothers" might make a good subject for a PhD.)

The point I am making is that breasts are somewhat independent of pregnancy and birth organs. Reversion in the pelvic area is related to the reversion of the uterus after pregnancy and the shrinkage and repositioning of the other organs and all the soft tissues, whereas return to oestrus is related to length of exclusive breastfeeding, whether that be 1 day or 1 year. Same continuum, some overlap of hormones, driven by changes in different organs. That will get me googling.

I suspect Dr Brayer's statement might relate to weaning and return to oestrus at between 3 and six months, which was regarded as acceptable and normal some years ago. In this situation, the normal improvement in prolapses that happens after the first three months would be happening anyway, regardless of when the woman weaned and returned to oestrus. The observations may be true, but the scientific rigour of making the association between cessation of breastfeeding and recovery of pp prolapses would be questionable. In saying this I have made assumptions but Dr Brayer's reported statement is equally full of unknowns and crystal ball gazing.

Hi-ho, hi-ho, its off to googling I go ...

Louise

have to agree with louise. At 9 months postpartum I'm still fully breastfeeding with my little one having the odd taste of solids here and there. We delayed introducing solid food at all until about 8 months and really I don't think it has affected/delayed improvements at all. I'm rather enjoying the delay of my periods and a little nervous of how their return will affect things (they were painful in the past any occassionally accompanied by the heavy, draggy feeling I have now come to associate with pop).
The good news is things have improved for me majorly since the early days, I saw very little change to 12 weeks, then a huge difference by 20 weeks and again I can feel a huge difference between 6 months postpartum and now.
I think I read somewhere that the chinese regard the postpartum period as being 2 years. I think allowing 2 years is pretty sensible since even by 9 months I'm seeing huge leaps in how much better it is getting, every now and again.

I would be very careful of bouncy type exercise, about a month back I jogged to the end of the road which felt great at the time, but when I stopped, for a full hour felt like I'd just given birth. It took a full week to feel that I'd undone the damage that jogging did and get back to 'normal'. So i think the doctors advice there is good, I do think that I'll be able to run without if causing any problems eventually. Other than not running, the only other activity i'm careful with is making sure my shopping trolley isnt too heavy to push at the supermarket. I wear my baby all day pretty much and he's big! about 25lb and can happily pull my 3 year old along in his red wagonif we go for a walk in the neighbourhood (i feel pulling much kinder on the pop than pushing), hence carry the baby rather than use stroller and my 3 y/o has to walk so we dont go anywhere his legs cant handle.

Louise asked for more info on T-Tapp. I'm sure you won't like this, but these really are helping me strengthen my core. I just read the desciptions & looked at the photos (I didn't purchase anything) at http://www.t-tapp.com/articles/flatstomach/

I'm not interested in a flat stomach, but I feel that losing some of my pregnancy weight & strengthening my abdominal & back muscles has helped tremendously. I still have about 20 pounds to go, but I feel better almost everyday, just walking Ingrid 1 hour a day (in posture when I remember) and doing these exercises at night (especially the 'half frog').

As far as Dr. Brayer's comments...well, I am going to put my faith in her for now. She appears to a well-trained physician, as well as an active mother of 2. I am absolutely convinced that my cystocele is related to my depleted estrogen. My skin is rough, my vagina is dry (except for when I have a discharge of course), and my hair is falling out (yes, my thyroid is normal). I would choose breastfeed if I had to do it again, but I still believe that eventual weaning will help 'straighten' things out. I do expect to have these problems again when I hit menopause (but I'll deal with that later on).

Anyhow, I think that waiting until I resume menstruating makes sense. At the very worst, it certainly will not hurt me!

jb

I have a "fallen bladder" which I am told is typical among women who havve had several children. I don't know about it going away after so many weeks after birth, but I hope yours will. However, even if it doesn't, you can live with it. I can feel my bulge now between my legs occasionally, especially at the end of the day. If I sit down propery and keep my back and my legs at right angles to each other, it "tucks away." The same thing happens when I lay down. But if I've been walking around a lot and not paying attention to my posture then it hangs a bit out all the time. It in no way shows through any of my clothing and the cotton panties I wear from VS do not irritate it at all. I have come to accept this as a prt of my body and my life history. I even have the idea that the fallen bladder is stopping me from experiencing a vaginal prolapse. So, I've grown to appreciate it. My gyn says that it is a stage 3, but they do banty about those terms. She said that because of the positioning, if they surgically went in to lift the bladder it would then open up the liklihood of needing another surgery for a vaginal prolaps. So, she said, I should have it all done at once, a hysterectomy and an ovary removal too. Huh! Who needs that? I was really upset, just like you, but now I have read a lot more and I feel quite certain that I will not subject myself to surgery unless it becomes absolutely necessary. So, don't you be discouraged. There are plenty of happy women walking around with this condition if it should come to that in your future. Take deep breaths and let your body and mind heal you.

The T-Tap site looks really interesting and the first exercise is actually similar to what I was already doing to pull my organs up. I'm going to print it out and try the others from that site as well. As far as the article from Runner's World, I read that a while back and have also been more optimistic because of it. I don't know if my prolapse will heal or if things will change from what they are today, but for right now, I choose to be optimistic that it will get better to the point that I don't think about it any more and be able to run without causing it to be worse. I don't plan to wean because of it but I definitely hope that once I start ovulating again, it will make things firmer. Maybe that's a naive hope to those of you that have been dealing with this for longer, but I guess I'm just not ready to accept this as a life long condition yet. I'm just taking it one day at a time and trying to stay as optimistic as possible.

ARG

still wondering how estrogen can reverse a prolapse. I keep hearing all about that, and as far as I know (and I've been wrong many a time, so correct me if I am) all estrogen does is plump up vaginal tissue. not sure how that would reposition a bladder.

but anyway, estrogen levels can and do return to normal even when bf, and I would imagine that one's menstrual cycle would be a sign that those levels are normalizing. of course, hormone levels fluctuate during bf (at least that's what I've found) due to growth spurts, etc.

I just hate the implication that weaning will hasten the healing process. I know dr's say that all the time, and I know they mean well, but really, they haven't a clue. If someone wants to wean, I say do whatever you want, but for those who are on the fence or desperate to fix a prolapse, don't take the bf away unnecessarily. prolapse is loss enough. there was a woman here a while ago who weaned hoping to hurry the healing along and she didn't report that to be the case.

and as far as optimism goes, I'm all for it! naive or not, its a good thing, I think. and I've gotten to the point where I don't think about it on a regular basis. I don't run, but I bet if I did I'd feel it in my knees before my prolapse.

Hi Ladies,

If you do a search here on t-tapp you'll see our discussion going back four years or so. From a wholewoman perspective, these exercises are not very useful. The "replacing the organs" exercise makes absolutely no sense anatomically. First, she is on her back so her pelvic organs have fallen back from the hollow of her lower belly. Secondly, what is the use in trying to push them up toward the chest? It is a totally lame concept probably based on Mayan massage and conjured up by someone who did not bother to learn female anatomy. With every breath we take our body is relentlessly trying to push our organs down and forward - where they are normally pinned into position well out in front of the pubic bones. A "flattened tummy" suggests trying to hold the abdominal wall in. When we do this we are working against the body's constant effort to keep the bladder and uterus forward.

I think the primary road-block in understanding prolapse is directional. The organs have fallen BACK, not down - and therefore the work is to push them FORWARD, not up.

The only possible value those exercises could have would relate to moving the fascia, like Mayan massage.

Not trying to be discouraging - do whatever makes sense to you - but we need to stay on track here.

Christine

Hi Christine

Bowen Therapy is partly about mobilising and moving the fascia. I wonder what keeps the fascia 'lubricated'. What keeps them healthy and mobile? Good hydration? We have discussed the problems of a vagina that is not well-lubricated, so it kind of sticks together and prevents complete mobility of the pelvic organs, so if they slip towards the vaginal opening they can't 'slip back again?

What keeps the organs 'up' for a while after firebreathing and the abdominal vacuum exercise? What normalises their positions if they do get out of place? Moving in posture does it, particularly walking, with its nutation/counternutation, jiggling effect. Does breathing do it by increasing the lumbar curve during inspiration? And pushing the organs forward onto the lower abdominal wall?

Cheers

Louise

Signing off for good here! The tone of your post makes it very clear that my posts are "no sense" and include "totally lame concepts."

I must have misunderstood the point of this site. I did not come here for anger or to endure your demeaning remarks. Please, "Stay on track."

Best of luck to all the new moms!

Thanks for the URL, JB

I now see what you are talking about. I don't know anything about Maya massage, but Christine does. OK, if it is based on Maya massage technique I can see what she is trying to do. If the organs do indeed get stuck in a lower position than they are meant to be in, then the Putting the Organs in Place exercises might mobilise them upwards, but away from the lower abdominal wall. I don't think that the latter would be desirable, especially if considerable pressure is applied.

Which organs is she talking about? Stomach? Intestines? Uterus? Vagina? Ovaries? She is not using correct anatomical terms, so it is all a bit ambiguous. Why doesn't she just say what she means? The 'tightening' she is talking about does not illustrate the same as my tightening would look. It looks like she is doing a stomach vaccum-type thing which would be blocking an inward breath, or pressing her abdomen towards the floor. The way the bottom of her ribcage is sticking up tells me this. But her breasts are sticking up too. She must have her lungs full of air, or else she has seriously surgically-enhanced breasts, or an older head on a young body. Fanny? Does she mean vagina? Or buttocks?

There are too many puzzles and contradictions in this set of exercises for me to make sense of them, but if you are finding that they are helping you get some tone back into your abs, and not putting any pressure on your pelvic floor while doing them, then I guess they are working for you. Maybe I just don't understand the way she is using the English language, or perhaps I don't understand what she is trying to do? I figure that as soon as she stands up gravity will just bring everything back to normal.

Actually the frog position exercises have some similarities to some of Christine's DVD exercises, but I don't know that the intent is the same. I would rather do Christine's.

Re losing 1 1/2inches off the abdomen, what's the big deal? I can do that once a month just by having a period!! ;-) Also, does she measure it lying down or standing up? Remember that lying down is the best way to fasten tight jeans when they are straight off the washing line? That's just a hazy memory for me!

Re the weaning / improvement in prolapses connection, yesterday I put a query in to the Australian Breastfeeding Association's research Forum to see if there has been any work done on this subject. I will let everyone know if any research results turn up. This Forum appears to be moderated by Lactation Consultants, so their answer should be authoritative.

Sorry if my comments on the exercises sound negative. It is only because I really don't get it. I can't see the aim. I can't understand the mechanism. I can't see the point.

Cheers

Louise

Hi Louise,

The front aspect of the lumbar vertebrae are connected to the respiratory diaphragm with strong, thick ligaments called “crura”. With every inspiration the diaphragm pulls the lumbar vertebrae forward and in doing so helps pin the organs into position. Lie flat on the floor on your back and place your hand under your lumbar area to feel this forward movement. Every time we suck in our stomach, tuck our tailbone, or contract our pelvic floor we obstruct natural breathing and the figure it has sculpted – our pelvic organ support system.

It is the breath working in consort with our muscles that move the connective tissue that moves the bones that provide the structure for it all.

I think of connective tissue in terms of “tone” rather than lubrication. But either way depends upon a nutritionally rich diet.

Christine

please don't go!
I'm sure christine did not mean it personally. not that 'your' comments make no sense, but the concept of t-tapp maybe (ignorant here myself as I admittedly did not read up on it).
I'm sure the 'stay on track' comment referred to the concept of moving the organs forward, rather than up, as that is the premise of the wholewoman concept.

I, for one, think your comments are very relevant, as it keeps the conversation intellectually stimulating and fresh. and there is always something new to be learned.

don't know the answer to your question, louise, but I do know one thing that will make things more difficult for fascia to slide and move - scar tissue. maybe one reason a c-section won't necessarily prevent prolapse.

Well I am just one woman but I will share what has happened to me so far. I have had 2 cycles in the last 3 months (they are my first in 6 years- for the past 6 years I have been pregnant or breastfeeding, getting pregnant on my first ovulatory cycle between babies) which leads me to believe that my estrogen levels have returned to normal.
I feel good. I am now about 18 months post partum.
before the last 3 months I had one or two days each month where my rectocele felt lower (not the heavy achy feelings of the early days-just a sensation of the bulge in the vagina)- I was able to do the firebreathing or abdominal isolation exercises to pull it back up. Occasionally I would do something that made it worse- like camping or running a few miles or throwing up- and by resting and doing the firebreathing or isolation exercises I would feel better in a day and would be back to my baseline in a week or so.
Now during both of my last 2 cycles before and during ovulation my vagina felt very firm. Really good.but then 2 or 3 days before I started my period I felt so sore and heavy- It was my warning that I was going to start soon- then for the first 3 days of my cycle I was pretty miserable. I was so achy. and the whole area was just draggy. I will say that using tampons was kinda nice. I felt support from them. but I was glad to have them out. Toward the end of my cycle I felt better. Less heavy. But- and here is the clencher- better wasn't even as good as my "bad days" pre-cycle return. Also I couldn't do my firebreathing or ab isolations. All I could do was rest as much as possible (not so easy with 3 kiddos).

summary? well having a cycle means my estrogen is back to normal- but for about 7 days out of the month I feel terrible and for another 7 I feel kinda bad- so half the month? I would much rather not have the return of my cycle. I prefer the 2 or 3 off days a month.

Here is something else a little funny-my skin is more dry these last 3 months- and my mood is all over the place. Those nursing hormones are a beautiful thing.
We are planning another baby. We hope soon. I am pretty concerned for my POP but finally my desire to have another baby is drowning out that concern.

I am running- playing with my kids all over the yard- dancing- jumping- staying on my feet all day long with no impact at all on my prolapse so I guess I am holding onto the faith that after we have #4 by the time SHE (we all want a girl so bad) is 2 I will be feeling this good again-
funny to think I am willing to have a little handicap for the next 3 years just to have a baby- but man I love them so so much. And we are ready- as a family to add a new member anytime-

JB (I think you are the one who is leaving right?) stick around. I know sometimes this stuff gets sticky- but the support here is wonderful. give us a chance.

sending lots of babydust your way! (that's PINK babydust)
I'm so psyched that you're trying for no.4.
you won't regret it.

a baby : ) a baby : ) a baby : )
I love babies!!!!

what she said :)

Did not mean to hurt your feelings, jb, AND I think you're being a little oversensitive. T-tapp doesn't make sense anatomically and that's the gist of it. It has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Also...I do think I'm running out of patience - hence the "tone", which I do apologize for. I'm not running out of patience for anyone in particular (well - Almost anyone), but just sort of burning out on this whole venue.

The forum is kind of a drag, actually. Women come, pour their hearts out and get ooodles of support. And then when the going gets a little rocky or a bit outside their comfort zone they turn around and split. Some even take great enjoyment in it and continue to write me gooey emails - even though they've removed their support from the forum. It's quite okay - I don't expect that anyone who's gained strength and healing here owes us anything. But I would like to see some kind of real community develop where women care enough and enjoy each other enough that they would not lose one another for no good reason.

Peace,

Christine

!

Some people do not have the gift of wording something that is non offensive in some ways to some people...

Know the forum was set up with the best of intentions to let women talk to each other and support each other and I personally email with many women who post now and who have moved forward with life, I am kinda in and out but I read alot and email alot and I really do believe the good always outweighs the bad on forums. This forum is lucky... There is not much bad at all, that is a good thing in all aspects.

Everyone reads the written word in a different way and you are unable to hear the voice which means the tone of 'voice' is also lost in the typed word and people read it in many different ways...
That is the same in text messages - They can be 'heard' in so many different ways.

Nothing you say is nonsense or lame. And I am sure that nobody would want to make you feel demeaned. Many people find that a myriad of things work together to make a good solution for their life to become liveable again - What might work for you might not work for me and vice versa.

I realise that POP and its 'aftermath' Can and does make people very sensitive. And others who are at a different place on this winding road can make you feel belittled in this journey at times. Not intentionally so, but nonetheless your feelings are important and please do not think that all people on this site take things in life so flippantly to say anything you say is lame - Sometimes as I said above people do not understand things and need clarification etc.

Whatever the posts below mine say to you, they were not meant I am SURE in the way you 'heard' them. Personaly I look upon a forum in a very different way, maybe because I do alot on forums and have done for many years and they work in a cycle of very 'up' times and then very quiet times. Unfortunately communities wane every now and then, that is just the way life goes. Maybe if people feel 100% comfortable they will return to somewhere they feel safe. I am sorry this has not happened for you :-(

Sometimes people need to take a step back and they leave the forum for a while. Sometimes something happens and they dissapear. Sometimes they are so busy having a life, they forget... I am sorry that the reason you are leaving is because you have been offended in some way. Please note - Many of us are alot more tactful in our stringing of the written word - Well, I do try to be but we can all fall off the 'wagon' at times lolol

Please do not think that people here thought your comments were anything but your own thoughts and feelings and they ARE important.

As I said above, sometimes people should re-read their posts before clicking that posty button and they would notice that words strung in a certain way can cause offence, and I am sad that you feel that way.

Sometimes taking a step back is a good step forward :-) (If you understand my meaning)

Hoping you will return...

Even in the post I wrote above I am sure someone could read something bad into it - As everyone reads things from a different angle. But it was intended as ony good. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time writing it :-)

I have been emailing with a lady who had an exercise that worked for her but did nothing for me, I think she put it on here somewhere. I will try to find that email if you would like?

Take care...

Sue

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference
Look into the eyes - They hold the key.
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Yes…I think you are right about forums, Sue. I was never very well adjusted to the “real” world, so why should it be different here? But I really want it to be different because the world (of humans) is not a very nice place, generally. By next year our format will be much different, which should help.

And Sue…I think you should start your own forum! Wholewoman is not your average prolapse support group, although obviously support is a major part of our process. We have very specific work we are doing here and it is so important that we understand it so we can communicate to other women these principles. It is absolutely not true that every exercise or treatment is generally okay because “what might work for you might not work for me”. That is true of pessaries and flax, but not pelvic and postural exercise because healthy, intact women are far more similar than different in terms of pelvic organ support.

Changing deeply ingrained paradigms is very hard work and we need all the help we can get.

Sincerely, if not tactfully,

Christine

Is that a subtle hint? Sounds like one to me.

If you wanted me to just leave - Why not just come out and say it?

Considering all I have done for the past three years is back you - I must say that is realy hurtful. I backed you on all sites where your name was banned from even being typed. I backed you passionately. And what did I do wrong? Bar my POP getting worse?

There are many ways to change peoples thoughts and feeling and to leave them feeling insulted so they leave and gain nothing is not one I thought was helpful. Not very supporting really in my opinion which obviously counts for less than nothing.

And I was not talking about T Tap - I was talking about the other woman on here who had an exercise thing - As many women have discussed - Not that Tapp woman.

You should be actually proud of what I have learned - I found a way to live well with 3rd deg POP - In posture etc etc

I apologise to everyone else.

*Very very shocked and well just shocked and confused*

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference
Look into the eyes - They hold the key.
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

(((sue)))

I think the 'tone' was lost again!
when I read it, I thought the 'start your own forum' comment was complimentary. you've been through alot, you always respond warmly and with a sense of humor. I think a general POP-support forum run by you would be welcomed by many, many women.
I don't think any of us wants you to go, silly girl.

I really do not see it as you do Gmom - But I really do thank you.

And when the whole time I have PROVEN the fact that you CAN live well with 3rd degree POP after stumbling along the road again and finding my way through to a way where I am not in surgery and not thinking of it at all - ever!

I can safely say I have not been hurt like this in many a year.

Thank You Gmom you are the best. You really are.

But people need to feel 'heard and validated' - Not 'hurt and violated'

And I know I brought a sense of humour to here - Life needs that - It makes harsh things a bit less 'edgy'

I am sorry. I only meant for JB to not leave, and to know that she could have misconstrued. I didn't mean to get attacked or start one.

I have never been anything bar whole and real on here.
I am just me.
http://xfa.xanga.com/8a1c75e1d0732185837455/t142573033.jpg
And that is all I will ever be. Just Me. Myself. and I.

Apologies,

Sue

Sometimes you are holding Someone else's heart whithin your hands. & you can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart and hurt it - Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it.You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed...

yes, sue, holding someone's heart in our hands is quite the responsibility. sometimes more than we bargain for and sometimes we don't even realize how many hearts we hold!
I think that's one of the amazing things about women, we mean so much to each other, without even knowing it. I know that when I first found this place I was on the brink of despair, really, a mess. and the women here gently carried me over to safety. without thinking about it, just by being themselves. It is to our credit that we can do that for one another, but you are right, we need to also recognize that it is not enough. once you've touched someone's life, you're in a position to also do great damage to that person. unfortunately that kind of damage is often done without any intention, but painful nonetheless.
it *is* much easier not to get involved, but that's not like us sisters, is it?
I am really sorry you got so hurt, sue. I dont' like to see that kind of thing happen, especially here.

Hi Sue,

It's me..Mae. The person you helped through email with the sponges. I am sorry you were hurt by what Christine had to say, but try not to take it to heart. I hope you will continue posting because you have helped a lot of people (including me!) and it would be great loss to so many.

I think you are exactly right about needing to reread what we have to say when we post. We need to stop and think about how what we write might sound to others. I made that mistake recently when I got impatient waiting for a response to one of my posts. When I reread it later it didn't sound very nice, but I didn't mean it that way. I apologized, explained my frustration and we went on from there (thank you Louise!). I suspect Christine will apologize if she was having a bad moment, or will at least explain what she was trying to say. I really don't think she was asking you to leave.

In the meantime, I hope your little one found the tooth fairy money she lost in her room. What a cutie she is!

Thanks again for all your help. Still working on getting the sponge thing right. Haven't had a really bad POP day since I got them. Maybe because I am a little afraid about using them???? Now wouldn't it be nice if that's all it took to do better with POP! LOL

Warmest regards,

Mae

This song - Download it it's GREAT...

The words are for a man to a woman but I am sure anyone can see/hear the words that I take from this son and are words tolive by. That I live by in the main. Words are VERY very sharp things they can sooth or they can hurt. Words can kill intheir harshness. Words can show emotions and words can show oh so many things. And in here all we have are words...

Thank You to everyone. I really do appreciate emails and posts.

The song......

INDIA.ARIE
"Talk To Her"

When you talk to her talk to her
Like you'd want somebody ta
Talk to your mama
Don't be smart with her
Have a heart to heart
With her just like you
Would with your daughter
Cause everything you do or say
You got to live with every day
She's somebody's baby
She's somebody's sister
She's somebody's mama

Now when you go to her
Speak truthfully
Honest as you can be, from your heart
You're in a situation
Well you're losing patience
Take your time and look her in the eyes
When you just can't find the words you want
And it's hard to reach a point
Where you both can understand
Don't just tell the truth
But tell the whole truth
It'll make a better man out of you

When you talk to her talk to her
Like you want somebody at
Talk to your mama (Don't get smart)
Don't be smart
With her, Have a heart to heart
With her, just like you would
Would with you daughter
Cause everything you do or say
You got to live with everyday
She's somebody's baby
She's somebody's sister
She's somebody's mama

It doesn't matter if
She's wearing mini a skirt or business suit
Whether she's twenty-five or ninety-nine
Treat her the way your mama taught you to
She could be the queen of Sheba, she could be a school teacher
A homemaker or lawyer
I think it's good for your karma
If when you talk to her

When you talk to her talk to her
Like you want somebody ta
Talk to your mama
Don't get smart with her
Have a heart to heart with her
Just like you would
Would with you daughter
Cause everything you do or say
You got to live with every day
She's somebody's baby
She's somebody's sister
She's somebody's mama

Now let's keep it real
Nothing in the world will ever exist without the opposite
There has to be a sun and a moon
A man and a woman
And that's just the way it is
Humanitys excited
And everybody's fighting
How do we restore the peace
Mama Earth is hurting
And everybody's searching for that feminine energy
You gotta talk to her

When you talk to her talk to her
Like you want somebody ta
Talk to your mama (Watch your mouth, yeah yeah)
Don't get smart with her have a heart to heart with her
Just like you would
Would with you daughter
Cause everything you do or say
You got to live with everyday
She's somebody's baby
She's somebody's sister
She's somebody's mama

When you talk to her talk to her
Like you want somebody ta
Talk to your mama
Just like you'd fight for your sister
If you knew that someone dissed her
How you gonna care for your daughter
Turn around and talk bad about her mama
Same way you listen to your auntie
Never interrupt while she speaks
Make your words sweet like candy
As if you were talking to your granny yeah
If you really love her then (say so)
And If you really need her then (say so)
You Love the way she thinks (say so)
You love the way she speaks (say so)
When you need some good conversation (say so)
Say so (say so)
If you want her in your life (say so)
You want her to be your wife (say so)
Tell her she's your best friend (say so) (alright)
You'll be there to the end (alright)(say so)
If you're thinking about leaving (say so)
If you wonder where she going (say so)
If you need to breed with her (say so)
You just want to be with her (say so)
If you love her hair (say so)
If you want her there (say so)
Tell me if you really want her (say so)
You wanna slap her down (say so)
Say so...
Laughing...
If you like her loving
You wanna feel her hugging
To fade...

Thanks once again...

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart and hurt it - Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed

I'm at work (hope I don't get caught doing this) but I just wanted to tell you that you are such a BIG part of this community of women and if you were to leave there would be a HUGH void - especially for me.

I love your picture with your little girl.

Love, Goldfinch

'Life is not holding a good hand; Life is playing a poor hand well'

This is a hard and difficult place. Do we stand up in support? Do we lie back and say nothing? Before I decided, I asked myself again and again which was best. I could not answer.

I think that we all take great risk here, when we come to care so much for people we've not met—for people we can't hug or hold during a crisis. We can't look each other in the eyes--we can't see and feel and portray real intention. Still, so many give their all here.

We can only be hurt to the degree that we care.

It is plain to see that Sue cares deeply and is bonded here. Her heartbreak is not staying on the page as I read. It reaches, country to country, woman to woman. I have not been able to be here much lately but it was a bright spot to see her back. She lifted me up so many times when I needed lifting. She was tireless with it. To see her hurting now after her courage to open up again is deeply troubling.

Something--nothing forum related--really angered me this week. An opportunity arose where I could have used the passion from that anger on a completely different situation. I sought the council of a wise and trusted friend. She brought me back to clarity.

It is so easy to lose clarity especially when there is great passion and commitment. I hope that is the case here, for all involved.

Gmom, you seem wise beyond your years. I hope your insight proves true here.

Whole Woman has represented emotional and physical support in equal measure to me. I needed both sides. I think most of us do. I hope both sides remain and flourish. Kit

Can be so devasating and can destroy relationships. I
hope that is not the case here.
If we can stand back and try to see where the other person
is coming from it can help us to understand their point of view.
Sometimes it is hard but can be worthwhile and bring us closer.
Sue, you can see how loved you are on this forum and as I have said
before one of the bright lights on it.
Christine you are much loved and respected.
I hope this can be overcome and everybody stay on the forum.
Everybody and their input is valuable as we have much to learn from
each other.There are bound to be misunderstandings as we are all human
and it is part of living and learning.
Regards to all,
Flora

Let's remember, too, what a stiff toll prolapse takes from all of us. My symptoms are mild when compared to many others', but even mine can be extremely difficult to live with.

Many here have been coping for so long, giving more of yourselves than you can really afford. Let's hold one another by the hand and get to that quiet place we all know, and we'll remember what we share.

Love to all.

Ellen

So very true, Flora, and Ellen...and this thought keeps circling around inside me...what can we do to help? Kit

Don't let this conversation rattle you away from us. :-)
It's a good, good place with more caring hearts than one
can mention. And there is a wealth of knowledge here you
just can't find anywhere else. Know that you are cared for.
Kit

Hi Kit,
Don't really have an answer as we are all so far apart.
Can't talk person to person or give a hug.
We can do what we do for our family and friends at
a time like this. Pray that everything will get sorted out,
be there for them and hold good thoughts for them.
Sounds corny but in most cases that is all we can do and most often
it will get sorted out in time.
I guess we can all send hugs to ((((Sue and Christine)))) and tell them how much they mean to us.
I know when everyone sent such lovely thoughts to me when my husband
passed away it comforted me no end.
Love Flora.

Know that you are both precious to me and I hold you both in my thoughts.
You both contribute so much in helping us, each in your own ways.
I will always be grateful to you Christine for all your hard work and
knowledge that you pass on. I must admit I don't understand all
the anatomical explanations but do try. Anatomy was never one of my
favorite subjects. Your knowledge awes me.
Sue your humour (especially your gremlins) help cheer me up when I am
feeling down. Your staight forward way of putting things is a treat.
You both in your own ways contribute so much.
Take care and (((((HUGS))))to both of you.
Love Flora.

Hi all,

I still check in here every so often to see how you all are, and I wanted to contribute a little to this thread because I believe that I could well be perceived as one of the women Christine refers to who "come, pour their hearts out and get ooodles of support. And then when the going gets a little rocky or a bit outside their comfort zone they turn around and split". I think I understand this perception, but wanted to offer an explanation if I may?

I think that it is important to remember that unless one is completely following the wholewoman principles, one may not feel entirely justified in being here. There are many of us I suspect who do a little bit of many things to manage our prolapse, and yet understand that doing these things may separate us from the women who manage principally with the techniques used here. I have not found the techniques for example to be helpful with resuming running, and rather then be seen as a naysayer, it is better for me to explore other ways that may make it easier for me to run again. This is one reason I don't come here as often, not that I don't support the work, just that I also support other things.

I also found that by coming here all the time that prolapse occupied my existence, by stepping back a little, it does not. I still care for many of the women here a great deal, and feel that I provided my share of support, but for me I needed to move on a little. I think many women come here, give and get support, but also move on a little with their lives which is a huge tribute to this place, and a sign of healing.

Anyway, not in any way trying to be contraversial or anything, just trying to present another point of view. I am grateful for everything here, and will continue to give support if needed. Miss you all!

Love Michelle xxxx

with UKmummy. I stumbled on this site when searching for answers to my many questions about prolapse. I honestly don't agree or disagree with the whole woman approach. I was here because it was great to "talk" to other women going through the same things that I am since I don't know a single person in real life with these issues (at least no one's talking about it.) It shouldn't surprise people that Christine doesn't want anything discussed other than her approach to prolapse, after all this is her site and how she earns her living (I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just trying to state a fact.) I'm specifically talking about the discouraging words about ttap. Honestly, I've been doing exercises similar to those and they have made me feel tons better. So although you may see no value as they don't relate to your work, others may. I personally want to hear about any method (non surgical of course) that people here have found useful in managing their prolapse whole woman related or not. What I'm realizing is that maybe this is not the forum for that. Maybe a yahoo group for discussing things not related to the whole woman approach would be more appropriate.

I don't know if that's the answer, just thinking out loud so to speak. I'm sure I've offended people but really that wasn't my intention.

ARG

Good points, well made Michelle. Louise

Hi Michelle,

So very much is contained in your post and I would love to expand upon some of it if possible.

First of all – and I say all of this with so much love and compassion – you were one of those who, although you were always very supportive, never seemed to thoroughly get behind these concepts. You seemed very tied to the conventional – PT, kegels, and the nurse practitioner you thought so highly of. Although you were always very sweet and verbally supportive, I always got the sense that your integration of the core work was not very deep. Do you remember our lengthy conversations about suspension bridges and such? Yet, there never seemed to come a time – like it has for Marie and Louise and so many others, that the lights really went on. For one thing, you have what sounds to be an extremely mild prolapse and I wonder whether you even have much in the way of symptoms that can be improved with this work – outside of mildly saggy vaginal walls that feel tighter when kegeled.

I am so very curious about your statement that holding yourself in natural posture is not conducive to running. This is not some kind of “invention” on my part and that is what’s so frustrating – that people think I’m attached to it as if I were selling a vagimaster or something. Rather, I have torn my hair out trying to convey to women that carrying our spine in this way is upholding the very pelvic organ support system! It is also aligning the body’s four sets of load-bearing joints one atop the other as nature intended so as to avoid injury and arthritis. There is complete anatomical justification for natural posture being the very best thing for the running body, the dancing body, the leaping body, and the standing body.

And btw, ARG, for all these years we as a group of thoughtful women have sifted through, scrutinized, accepted and/or rejected every possible product or treatment for prolapse.

The need for the female race to return to natural human posture is beyond critical. The surgeries will never work – they cannot work but for a few extremely lucky women who have high pain thresholds and low body awareness. And for millions of others they are nothing short of total disaster.

And we have a mountain of “conventional wisdom” working against us: the entire medical system, hysterectomized women who no longer have any visceral sense of natural pelvic support, and scores of others who find it all just too much to comprehend, let alone integrate into their lives.

I absolutely do think some of the women here should start their own forum and I am not apologetic for my feelings. We need a certain level of mindset at wholewoman: women whose innate sense of what is truly natural overrides deeply ingrained conventional ethos, and who understand that pelvic reconstruction is the Western form of genital mutilation and that there is a huge transnational corporate movement to “fix” as many females as possible – at an unimaginable cost to humanity. There is no other way to return future generations of women and girls to their natural birthright – active lives, healthy births and prevention over intervention. If I have to be alone in this work , so be it.

Christine

Hi Christine,

You obviously picked up quite different things from Michelle's post. I was picking up on the variety of things that we can each do to help our bodies over hurdles, whether they were sourced from WW or not. I was also picking up that the WW forums don't occupy a central part of most women's lives. Goodness me, we couldn't have my degree of domestic disarray being duplicated all over the world!

I spend a lot of time here. It gives me a buzz when women get some benefit from my words or the words of another. Sometimes somebody stuffs up and we have uproar for a while. That's humans for ya. I also pick up ideas for myself and am able to share things I have found elsewhere, which might help Christine and the Wholewoman model (or a particular woman) along the way, by filling in puzzle pieces and giving WW situations to test the model on. It also enables me to clarify my thinking and understanding via discussion of various issues, and to understand my own anatomy better. It is also a part of my contribution to 'community' as I don't belong to any service clubs and the like. I have met wonderful, inspiring, quirky, earthy, commonsense women who share my wierd sense of the absurd. I count you among my best friends, 'cos boy have we shared *Some Stuff*!!! If these feelings are reciprocated by one or two, and they are, then I am one very happy woman. (Judy, I haven't forgotten your most recent very long email!)

Besides, the mischievous side of me just loves chipping away at existing, faulty realities in this stupid world of ours, and making people think about their false assumptions.

Christine, I would hate to see WW transformed into a brand that became a law unto itself, and over which you were the only one with any influence. Once a theory closes itself off to criticism and further development that comes as part of the debate, it is just another set of products that does not respond to the customer. Many brands would kill for the sort of customer feedback you get, whether or not you ask for it. I say that the day you limit WW to just WW techniques is the day it will become simply a consultancy with its horizons determined by the WW model existing at the time. Being able to take criticism, and not take it personally, is very important (whether the criticism is valid or not). If you don't have an avenue for inviting criticism you will never know what people think, and people won't talk about WW and spread the word. Also you will not be able to debunk certain exercises or products or ideas for good reason. It must really bug you that WW cannot help women who want to run marathons, or do powerlifting or lift invalids without a mechanical hoist, but a reality of life is that we are, in general, less physically capable at the age of 50 than we are at age 20. We are less physically robust at the age of 20 with damaged fascia that we are before the fascia get damaged. At the age of 50 we can (or will) no longer drink all night and watch the sun rise. We last until about 10pm, then go bye-byes.

For a highly competitive runner POP would be absolutely devastating, a bit like a concert pianist having a finger or two amputated. The concert pianist can become a teacher or composer. The runner just has to keep running. I don't know what I would do. My heart goes out to you Runnergirls, and I hope that between you, you can come up with ways in which you can keep running, or at least satisfy in some other way that urge, that need to run that is eating away at you.

Actually, getting Sue and others to set up a different Forum may have some merit, cos then Christine could post if and when she wanted to, and their members could say what they liked about any prolapse management techniques. I would probably join it as well as these Forums. Christine could still use it for testing her theories, as could anybody. The problem at the moment is that WW Forums are the only Forums on the Net (that I know of) where non-surgical management of POP is the focus. There aren't any others. Why? WW is not some dirty secret that has been discredited by the whole world. It has cred.

We are all so different physically, in proportion, past injuries and other ways. I may get major benefit from WW posture, where another woman just can't make it work. As an 8yo child doing gymnastics I can remember adults commenting on my wide and long lumbar curve. Maybe that's why I can use the posture so effectively, and I thank Christine every day, and God for finding her for me. (This sounds like an Oscars presentation.)

Lkewise, I think if women want to bring other exercise systems and other theories to the Forum, they have to expect them to be scrutinised, and perhaps rejected or partly rejected, and find out why. Or else be accepted, like Alemama's stomach vacuum thingy, or the sound endorsement flax seed has had from so many women. That's your job, Christine - testing your theories and developing them all the time - for the benefit of all women. Must be pretty exhausting and frustrating, though.:-(

That's why I would like to get some formal training from you. If we could get some formal training you could accredit individuals, and we could do some of the sifting for you, and you could trust us to do it. This is how so many organisations, such as the breastfeeding support organisations, volunteer fire fighters, swimming and lifesaving instructors and volunteer paramedics work. What they say has to maintain the credibility of the organisation. This, of course relies on the person accepting the authority of the organisation, and the organisations theories and policies being quite clear.

1+1=2 1/2. 1 by itself will only ever be 1.

I guess I now have a pretty good understanding of WW techniques [though I don't workout regularly, and have never had a serious go at Firebreathing, so I must be one of the women who dabble in WW techniques. Sorry Michelle, couldn't help that. It just slipped out! ;-)]. Christine, I can put my finger on any page of your book when I need a quick reference or answer, because I have read the damned thing from cover to cover several times, and still learn stuff. I think your theories are very well researched and put together, and you can answer every bit of criticism of the WW model with facts. I test this all the time, as you well know! ("Hey Christine, what about if...???") And I have been known to test WW theories out on physiotherapists and their educators, continence therapists, researchers, doctors etc. Nobody can fault them so far, even if they do think I am a bit nutty. I hope they put it away in their background info and refer to it later. Maybe one day a patient will ask them about it. At least they will have heard about it.

It has so much credibility because all the puzzle pieces fit together, unlike so many other women's health theories and practices, where the puzzle pieces are by the same manufacturer but they just don't quite mesh, or if they do mesh, the picture doesn't make sense when you look at it. I have recently read a very recently-published book on the pelvic floor which is streets ahead of anything I have ever read before, except STWW, but this new book still has bits of cognitive dissonance in it. If only WW posture was at the heart of it, it would be perfect! But it is damned well NOT PERFECT. What a waste! Oh well, you or I might be able to influence the 2nd edition. When I see the 2nd edition improvements of STWW it fills me with heart, because I can see how much of the improvements on the first edition were fired by the feedback from the Forums.

Sorry about the War & Peace post.

Cheers

Louise

Thank you to everyone.

But - I do not understand why you are doing this. This forum has been one of the most open forums about this subject where I felt everyone can speak and have their voice listened to. Everyone has differing views and unlike other forums all sides were heard here - Where they do not allowed that on 'other sites' Other sites had banned all talk of this way.

Having such an open forum enables ideas and cameraderie for those who have a common problem. To have a single idea running through a theme is beneficial for the whole where others can chip in a little bit to polish the final outcome - rather like painting a wall. You think you have finished and somebody comes along and says 'you missed a bit' and you fill in the gap.

Christine's ideas are sound and with input from other people just gives the whole thing that edge for a better environment for us all. Alot of people have benefitted from the posture, but I cannot expect any one person to know the answers to absolutely everything. (Unless it is '42' if you have seen that film lol) So as is everything - work goes on and WW becomes a stronger more well know and larger stronger voice in the world.

I still do not understand what I have done wrong when in all aspects I have done what is right - I fell apart - YES. That is natural and alot of women arrive here in this state. I have explained so many things from the book to so many people and I have travelled that same POP road twice now and got through it twice. I really do not understand what exactly I have done wrong when I have NEVER said surgery is the answer, because it is not in my opinion. And in fact all I have done is support Christine and her work.

I am just at a loss when I am left in the dark as to what I did wrong.

Please explain... I really want to understand.

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart and hurt it - Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed

I think we posted at the same moment lol...

I just think we all work together successfully to make WW a force to be reckoned with. To get the word out there in this world and HEARD.

Maybe there could be a different part of this forum that is just just a laid back chatty space where we all hold a common bond - Where we can talk about anything and everything?

People need laughter - It is the best medicine.

*N** said* To be a teacher is to pass on your knowledge toothers and yet retain the ability to learn yourself. A teacher who no longer learns is a dictator.

To make women able to spread the WW word to all, they have to really understand it and talk about it openly and feel comfortable. To strengthen them and make them feel empowered by this work.

Personally I still now send people to here from the other sites. And I will still and will always tell women there IS another way when they mention surgery is the only way.

If enough women can be trained to spread the WW word then the world will hear about it alot more and once people on TV etc get this word they might not think that Doctors are the be all and end all - As they are NOT.

It is obvious that a forum will be very repetative as people arrive when they are in need and new faces as the same old question. The job of some of us at WW has been to answer the same question over and over in many differing ways that all mean the same thing as people hear in differing ways and understand differently.

The whole thing is - To get the word out - Is it not?

I had a huge hurdle in my POP-life - I didn't jump it - More fell over it and landed with a bump - But I am back and I am - FAR FAR more of a WHOLE WOMAN for it!

Christine should in all reality be PROUD. I got through, maybe rockily but I did it. Does it not show that you taught me well?

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart and hurt it - Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed

I don't think you did do anything 'wrong'. I don't think Christine did anything 'wrong'. Where there is discussion that has no obvious answer or outcome there will always be the odd disagreement/disharmony. It's how we handle these disagreements/disharmonies that determines whether it will build or destroy.

At the moment I'm writing a talk for church tomorrow (and peeking at the Forums, and listening to Miles Davis, and making DH a cup of tea too).

To elaborate, I will quote in part, for all of us, the New Testament reading for tomorrow from the Revised Common Lectionary. This is for all of us. I can see no other way.

1 Peter 3:8-12 (the reading goes on to verse 22)

Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love for one another, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or abuse for abuse, but on the contrary, repay with a blessing. It is for this that you were called - that you might inherit a blessing. For
"those who desire life and desire to see good days, let them keep their tongues from evil and their lips from speaking deceit; let them turn away from evil and do good; let them seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

I can't put it any better than that. We all need to tread gently in cyberspace. Something like 80% of human communication is not in what we actually say. In text we only have 20% of the signals. Humans have never had to deal with this before. Even letters are not the same, because they are written to one person only (even if others often read them), whereas Chat and Forums are very public, and run the risk of offending people who inadvertently think they are involved.

I think when things like this current disharmony happen all parties need to be prepared to communicate one to one with somebody whom they may have offended, or been offended by, apologise where they think it means something, reconcile with each other, then move on. If it is published in a part of somebody else's topic it is a bit like have an argument with your partner in the school grounds, unwelcome, distracting and inappropriate. Lots of people get upset about it, and the playground becomes a battle field that has nothing to do with the kids whose playground is invaded by somebody's warring parents. Yikes!

Hey, these things happen. We must move on. I don't think it's not good form to have visible disagreements in public places.

Cheers

Louise

Thanks Louise, you speak sound words :-)

The idea of a forum I always thought is to provoke thought. Share knowledge. To prompt discussion, or debate. To bring together a community of people with the same interest/problems. Whithin a common theme and having the ability to produce an open letter to all and sundry. And in that you can make lifelong friends and possibly solve lifelong problems, and change things for the better.

I just think that if the WholeWoman voice gets LOUD enough, gets heard enough and gets out there enough. It will become a force to be reckoned with and the whole World will listen and then.... THINGS WILL CHANGE.

WWAFTBRW

lol

Sue

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

well. First. Christine. I see you hurting. I see it. You are not saying it as loudly as some (ahem MeMyselfandI) but you are hurting. So let me first say how sad I am for your pain. I think it may be wise to find someone to read your WW emails and then send the important ones to you so you don't have to be exposed to the negativity of the "gooey" ones for a little while. I think it may be easier to hear it right here on the forum because then you can have the support of us WW behind you and also I think people are less nasty on this public forum than they would be in a private email. I have such respect and love for you. I honestly have no idea what I would have done if you were not here with you knowledge and support. You are a pioneer. Debunking the myths that have for so long HURT women like me.
Your mission is such a burden. You must feel at times like Atlas. Especially when women can not get the concepts of WW and especially when we lose one to surgery.
I think women are critical of you with out thinking of the person you are. I know for me you are larger than life. Your knowledge and confidence in this journey of yours make you seem bullet proof. It is hard to imagine that you have feelings just like everyone else. You have a responsibility to protect yourself. Please let us see that you are vulnerable.
That said I also agree totally with Louise. every single thing she said in her first post.
ARG and UKmommy. I have gathered so much from you ladies. Just the fact that you exist. Live and Breathe. I need to know that there are women- like me- young with children- running. It gives me great hope. even if you do only pop in from time to time.
lastly Sue. my own heart aches for you. You were one of the first to drag me out of the pit of despair. It was hard these last few months to see you in it. Now I see you climbing out and I am so glad. I know you are upset with the things Christine has said to you. Especially the suggestion to start your own forum or group. I see no harm in it. But you better come here and post too- your voice is amazing here. WW would be less with out it.
I love you all.

I have and will always say she should be PROUD, i went through a very dark patch but she should be proud that no matter what - That she taught me well (and I obviously assimilated the info somehow)And I got through and can now show people all the more so that you CAN live well with even a 3rd degree POP. And I know this to be true - because I am... And that is a good thing as it shows others that it can be done.

:-)

*Off to the Uk sunshine while it still lasts*

Have a great day WWpeeps...

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.