Needing information on Rectocele and Cystocele

you will for sure get better (although you may get worse first which is what happened). Read through the FaQs here and ask any questions you may have. I am now 19 months postpartum and I feel great. It really does get better.

Alemama,

You wrote that things got worse before better...how much worse? and about when? Just to work at mentally preparing myself to not go nuts again!

tthanks! so grateful for your experiences!!!

~kristy

my experience was that things got worse at around 3 mo pp. I was back to my baseline by ?6 mo? don't remember exactly

I agree with alemama, surgery isn't necessarily needed. in fact, sugery might be the worst thing to do right now. when you get your book you'll read up on those surgeries and the nightmare side effects (further prolape, pain with intercourse, incontinence, etc). many of us have stabilized or reversed somewhat, our prolapses. and many of us are living quite well with stage 2's. I am. I have no pain, no incontinence, I run around with my kids and sex is great. the only time I have 'pressure' is around ovulation and a few days before my period. I can live with that.

remember, you are very new at this. 7 weeks pp is too soon to worry about what will be, lots can change in the next year. no one can promise you that your vagina will look like it did before you had babies, but you will be normal again. maybe a new normal, but you will be ok.

and congrats on the new baby!

the truth is that when you discover you have a prolapse, your life feels like it is over. the truth is that this is something to grieve and to mourn and it can feel all encompassing and overwhelms the rest of your life. the truth is that grief follows a pretty routine course, and down the line most of us reach a place of acceptance and that's when you look back and realize, hey, this really isn't as bad as I thought it would be.

the truth is that I still have an active life. today I took my baby for a 20 min walk (I wore him on my back). then I went to the gardening center and picked up five 40lb bags of compost and lugged them to the car. then I got home, took them out of the car and hauled them to the backyard. after the big kids came home, had dinner and did homework, we went out back and I prepped the soil in our veggie garden. prolaspe notwithstanding.
I run. I pick up my children - even my 55lb 7 yo on occasion.
sex is enjoyable. heck, sex is the best thing ever for a prolapse. puts everything back in place for a day or so.

honestly, the worst thing about prolaspe is what it does to your psyche. at least for me.

as far as the kegelmaster, try doing a search of old posts. I know its come up from time to time. but this is what I think: kegels cannot reverse a prolapse. a prolapse is NOT due to weak pelvic floor muscles. I started kegeling the day I found out I was pg with my first. I could probably have cracked walnuts with those muscles, and still I wound up with a cystocele. so go figure. kegels are good for compensating for stress incontinence so I won't go knocking them. but be careful not to overdo it. some of us (myself included) feel that too many can actually make things worse.
your time would be better spent learning the posture.

Gmom,

Well said, and so true. It's a mental thing even more than a physical thing. You can be as busy as you want and enjoy life to the fullest, but you have to conquer that fear first.

I just made plans to take 50 kids to Mammoth Cave this summer for a two hour deep cave tour. I know you will know what I mean when I say I don't want to miss the kids faces when they first see the cave. I don't want to sit on the bus because I am afraid a two hour hike will be bad for my prolapse.

You just have to get on with your life and do the things you love to do like putting in a garden. I hope yours grows beautifully this summer.

Judy

Hi Shiloh,

Whenever someone writes in worried about a newly discovered prolapse, I always breath a sigh of relief when they say they recently had a baby. From everything I've read, it is not only possible, but probable that your prolapse will improve with time. I think you should try not to focus on it so much, take care not to overdue and enjoy your new baby.

I tried the Kegelmaster (I've tried almost everything I think) and found it did nothing for me. However, it might very well work for you as my prolapse is different in that it did not happen to me after pregnancy. My prolapse (cystocele 3rd stage) happened three years ago when I was 58. Many years ago (my kids are 34 and 37 now) I had 2 very LARGE babies (9 lbs. 13 ounces and 8 pounds 11 ounces, I loved my OB/GYN back then, today I curse him for not encouraging me to keep my weight down) and I suffered like crazy after delivering such big babies (I was all of 110 pounds when I got pregnant with them) and looking back I am sure I had prolapse but no one ever told me. Things, of course got better and my permanent prolapse didn't show up for many years.

What works for me is to eat right, stay in posture, exercise (I fail on that a bit, I'm afraid) and to stay VERY moisturized. I use Replens for high up in the vagina moisture and KY or Christine's Bliss Balm, lower on the vulva. I need to use a mini pad because I stay so moist, but it helps the prolapse tremendously. Baths help as well, with prolapse AND stress. Sorry if this is TMI but I think you might want to know what works for women on WW so you can pick and choose and try different things that might work for you.

As far as your sex life goes..that won't change. Sex is as good as ever, with or without prolapse and mine is 3rd degree! Prolapse is a "standing" problem, not a lying down one.

I know it's hard, but try not to stress. It can't help and can't be good for you or that wonderful new baby who will surely feel mom's stress.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions I might be able to help you with. There is an incredible amount of information and support for you from this website and the wonderful women who post here! We're all in this together and we're here for you!

Warmest regards,

Mae

HiGranolamom

Gosh, your 'can-do' post gladdens my heart - Having been an avid gardener for many years, I found myself sitting on the sidelines feeling kinda sorry for myself the other day as my DH hauled 24 bags of mulch and spread them about my flower beds, and as he maneuvered the lawn mower around our yard's planted obstacle course this afternoon. That had always been a joint effort, the mulching, and the lawn-mowing totally my gig throughout the season (always so cathartic for me) - Despite my guy's understanding and willingness to take on everything, having to relinquish it all had me feeling rather useless. Your sharing has inspired me, and has me wanting more than ever to overcome my trepidations, evolve from worrier to warrior, and jump back into living on the wild side... well urban garden-side, anyway (and, of course, while in ww posture whenever possible). It's my garden and I'll try if I want to... and I really really want to! I'm glad I stopped in tonight ~ : )

Gardeningly,
~♥Blue

I once read an old post here where a woman shared how she worked in her garden all day on her hands and knees planting and that her prolapse felt better for it. SO Blue go for it!

Hey Blue

I like that! It is so true. We transform ourselves positively to meet the challenges that confront us in many aspects of our lives. Prolapse is just one of them, learning to use our bodies in different ways to accomplish the same and different tasks.

It just gets a bit tricky when we are trying to transform ourselves in more than one direction at a time. That's when I get wobbly!

Louise

and a few months postpartum. I had three children at the time- the oldest was 3 and a half. After my second birth my husband spotted some extra tissue at the opening of my vagina but we just dismissed it as normal and I never had any symptoms. I had a tear stitched after birth #3 and the stitches came out and I thought my soreness and feelings of pressure were from this tear not healing properly- but it was a rectocele.
Then I found WW and got all the information I could. Then it got worse- I don't know when- but my cervix came down and my front wall collapsed to meet the back wall bulge. Around a year postpartum I started feeling amazingly better. I could hold my big boy with out feeling the bulge. I could clean up toys with out crawling on my hands and knees.
Now I am 18 months postpartum and I am seriously considering pregnancy.
In my opinion your Dr. is a moron who has no freeking clue how the female body can heal. You may get worse but you can get so much better.
In the last month I have gone jogging, did back flips, extreme kiting, swimming, picked up all my kids (50lb 5 year old too), made love in an acrobatic way (not the careful way I did when I had a new baby) and I feel fantastic.
My cystocele is gone. My cervix is so high I can't reach it.
I think I improved simply because of time, intense exercise (bikram yoga- modify some postures), firebreathing, and the ab vacuum (which I think might be naguni or something- cleansing breathing in yoga). I also modified the way I was eating and the position I use to go to the bathroom. I do not lift heavy objects - not laundry etc... My body is super strong. AND I MOVE IN THE POSTURE ALL DAY LONG.
That's it
That's what has worked for me
Shiloh, I hope this gives you some hope. You have so much time. You will get better.

I'm happy to answer your questions, but I will say that every one of us is unique. our bodies are unique, we each come to this with our own set of preexisting conditions and strengths. the way our prolapses developed is unique. episiotomy? baby stuck in birth canal? forceps? prior surgery? chronic constipation? each matters. so what happened to me will not be predictive of what will happen to anyone else. that said, here goes...

I found my prolapse at age 32 (or 33? don't remember exactly). my then youngest (of three) was 18 mo. I *think* it was a stage 2 or 3 depending on the day. I don't get hung up on numbers, it changes from day to day and sometimes within the course of a day too.

I did go on to have another baby. but first I spent over a year in the posture, and I felt that things had stabilized. the firebreathing (an exercise in the second edition of the book) reversed the prolapse somewht. and by the way, it was primarily a cystocele and I developed a rectocele shortly after finding the first one. rectocele was never really problematic for me though.

after the birth of my second baby I felt GREAT, until about 6 weeks. from 6 weeks to about 3 mo things got worse until I was back to where I was when I first found it. but then it started getting better and now, dare I say it? its smaller than it was before I got pg this last time. so that's even more progress than I had hoped for.

how did I achieve this improvement?
posture
diet
exercise
positive attitude
prayer
taking care of all of me really makes a difference. I totally believe in the mind/body thing, and for me, this is really something that affects ALL of me. so I've slowed down around the house and learned to take the time to smell the roses (or catch the baby's smiles while he plays). it matters.
and hanging out here helps me feel normal. the initial feelings of being a freak, no longer sexy or strong were just not good for me.

your ob gave you the best advice he knows how to give, because he doesn't really know about the progress of a naturally managed prolapse. I thank G-d daily for Christine and the internet.

in your posts. I came here and asked about the kegelmaster too. I spent I don't even want to know how many hours googling prolapse and was extremely depressed for weeks. That was 4.5 months ago after I had my 4th and discovered my prolapse. I was also told by a doctor that it wouldn't get any better (this was at 2 months postpartum) and that I would need surgery. And he was a specialist (urogynocologist)! These doctors just have NO idea. I'm now 4.5 months postpartum and things feel pretty much back to normal. I was feeling draggy right before a bowel movement but now even that has gone away. I feel a little saggy on occasion but it's hardly noticeable. I never google anymore and this is the only site I come to to read about prolapse.

It really can and does get better from 6 weeks postpartum. I have no problems with sex at all. I also carry my 15 lb 4 month old as well as my 30 lb 2 year old around with no problems. I do try to avoid picking up my 40 lb 4 year old but pick him up when I need to as well. If my husband is around I have him pick up anything heavy. I'm really feeling nearly my old self again except that I'm still not running but I feel that in time I'll resume that again too. I do worry about the future and wonder what will happen as I get older (I'm 28) but right now I'm just very thankful that things have improved so much. I'm no longer uncomfortable and I don't think about it as much. When it was at it's worst, I think it was a stage 2 cystocele with a slight rectocele, I used tampons to keep everything up. It made things so much better for me as once it was in everything felt normal down there. I would've tried the sea sponges as they are probably better for you than tampons but never got around to ordering them and haven't needed anything for a few weeks. I also second the ab vacuum. Whenever I feel draggy and every night before bed I do these to pull everything up.

It really does get better. Hang in there!

ARG

Hi Shiloh

Just reading this last post of yours has helped me to see how much grief you are experiencing as a result of finding these prolapses. This is probably not helped by your doctor jumping in and starting the surgery process by referring you at this early stage.

At this postpartum stage there are several things for you to do.

The first is to recognise your reactions as classical grief reactions. Regret, blaming the doctor, feeling angry, feeling sorry for yourself, feeling like a part of you has died, feeling like you are going to feel like this for ever. These are all things that people say when they are grieving, be it for loss of a lover or good friend, a deceased lover, an accident, a failed exam or any other form of loss. Just allow yourself to feel these things. Eventually you will be ready to get on with your life. In the meantime, post as often as you like, and if you click on Review Post and then decide to bin it, then that is probably just as valuable for you. It is the expression of it that will help you to untangle the knots.

One of the most valuable things for you in the meantime will be to be patient. If you do nothing at all, other than resting and treating your body with care, and looking after your baby(s), the prolapses will improve. That is just the body reverting to its pre-pregnancy state over the next 12 months or so. Doing all the Wholewoman techniques will help your body along the way and establish good habits and lifestyle to live with them, as well as alleviating symptoms in the meantime. Oh yeah, and try not to check all the time. Progress will be slow and variable. Save yourself more grief by just not looking. It is what you feel, or don't feel, that will be the measuring stick.

Yeah, the doctor may be a little ignorant, but there are lots like that. It is a wake up call that doctors are not infallible, that it is important to do your own research, and to be very much responsible for your own health. I didn't have the benefit of the Web or this Forum/website when I was having babies, just a few books and an enquiring mind. I didn't get it right either. Now I do a lot more of my own research, and have benefitted greatly from it, as I can more critically appraise medical advice, which is sometimes not perfect. Go to the specialist in a few months if you want to, and find out what s/he has to say. You might decide by then that there is no point? Surgical procedures really are the only rabbits they have up their sleeves, and surgery is about as much use for dealing with prolapse in the medium and longer term as ... um ... well, a rabbit.

So another thing you can do is read, both the FAQ's on the homepage, and Christine's book, to see where you fit in, and how you can help yourself, cos sure as eggs is eggs nobody else will be able to tell you what to do to deal with the symptoms and perhaps prevent further damage. Also, use the search box and your browser's Find function to trawl these forums for similar things. There is a whole world of women's wisdom awaiting you.

Don't even think about another baby yet. Just do what you are doing, and get over this calamity. I am often amazed by young women who turn up a these Forums with a new baby and a new prolapse, learn from Christine's work, then disappear. It is just great when they turn up 12 months later and tell us that it worked. *That is just magic*. And no doubt you will be much better in 12 months too.

Cheers

Louise

Hi there,
I haven't been around much so haven't replied till now!
First congrats on your new baby!

Second, I want to also reiterate how early it is. I remember the "i need this to get better now!" feeling, but over time it idd happen. 3 weeks after my babe no. 2 was born i got grade 3 prolapses (rect & cyst) + mild uterine. now as he toddles around (and tries to add to this post!) i hardly notice them as long as i don't get constipated, walk a lot, and don't lift things outside my comfort level (which has gone up as he's grown). i had a specialist, a specialist physio, 2 doctors, and a midwife say it would all improve dramatically in the first year--& it did. so definately not as good as it gets at 6 weeks!!!!!

pessaries...my personal view is that the heavy feeling you get when you start to over due it is a message saying "stop!" especially so early on. the specialist i saw at 7 weeks said there was no benefit from a pessary at that point, that i just needed to heal as much as i could. i know it's hard with little ones,a nd you want life to go back to "normal". i discovered it was about finding my new normal, which is a slower gentler pace of life--hard with kids, but so rewarding!

kiki

Hi Shiloh

I fully agree with Kiki's reply. Just go a bit easier on yourself as your body goes through this fast changing recovery time. I feel a pessary would put artificial forces inside your vagina, so your insides won't be able to get back to their natural positions (cos the pessary will be pushing them around.)

The pessary may be useful later, maybe after 12 months, but hopefully you will not need one. Don't count your chickens.

I have used one briefly, many years ago, but my body changed quite quickly, to the point where it wouldn't stay in any more, and it was very uncomfortable, esp on the toilet. I have no need of one now, and find that WW posture is quite effective without it. I might make a big plastic door knocker out of it, or fasten it on a blind cord, just to get the damned thing out of my bathrooom cupboard. You know me, recycle everything! Just kidding. It's been one of those days.

Cheers

Louise

the pulling might be nothing more than tight muscles stretching out. standing in a new posture will do that.
and I'm really not qualified to say, but my guess is that if you had to squat and place your finger all the way up to feel your cervix, it isn't about to fall out anytime soon. sounds normal for a woman who's had children to me.

re: firebreathing pp, for sure not until all bleeding has stopped. I found that when I started it up again pp (probably around 8 weeks) I'd start spotting afterwards. so I stopped and didn't try it again until 3 mo. hth

Hi Shiloh

You are having a bit of a hard time, aren't you. I just read this last post of yours and it is telling me that you are beating up on yourself something terrible over this.

The first thing I want to do is give you a hug (((Shiloh))) and tell you that basically you are healthy, your baby is healthy and your husband is probably frighteningly healthy too. You and your husband are worrying about this and cannot see a way through it. You have only given birth a few weeks ago, so your body is still in a bit of disarray. Whatever has happened, it will get better to a degree over time, probably much better, maybe considerably better, maybe just *better*! So try to be patient and let your body do what it was designed to do, a slow and steady improvement over the next year. You cannot hurry it.

Now, at the moment, you have a baby who needs your milk, so if you have been feeding baby less than you were, just feed baby more times in each 24 hours to build your supply up, not necessarily more total minutes at the breast, just increase the *number* of feeds as much as you can buy sneaking in little mini feeds from both breasts whenever you can. And always offer the breast before offering artificial milk. Give as little artificial milk as you can (none if baby is happy after a long feed). I would suggest that you give yourself a couple of days being basically a topless couch potato and just let baby feed whenever s/he will. This is how milk supply is increased. It will only take a couple of days to start making more milk, but your milk supply *will* increase. It would probably be a good idea to contact a breastfeeding support group if you want to know more about this. They will be happy to fill you in.

Even if you did lift too much, too early, your reality now is that you are worried about and wanting to know what has happened. Many women experience postpartum prolapse, and it often does seem to fix itself. Even if the doctor has given you the all clear, we women know that further improvements will happen for some time. Have you tried searching postpartum prolapse in the search box? You will find quite a few women who have initially posted, feeling just like you, and have progressively improved and learned WW techniques on the way, and posted 18 months later, saying how good their body feels.

Part of the grief you are feeling will probably manifest itself as feeling that you will always be like this. Just take a look at the evidence from other women, and you will find that it did get better for them, and it will get better for you.

Cheers

Louise

We may have done a bit too much in the studio yesterday, Shiloh. Please just relax and take Louise's sage advice. Focus on your baby and remember that postpartum prolapse is the one that reverses the most. Hands and knees position is very supportive as is lowering your elbows to the floor with butt in the air. Remember what we said yesterday - three months before you start the firebreathing - but I so wanted to show you the exercises!! (((Hugs))) Christine

my history in short:
found my prolapse when my youngest (of 3) was 18 mo. it was a cystocele, probably grade 3. improved slightly and then I developed a rectocele. a year later the cystocele was a grade 2? I'm guessing on the worst days and shortly thereafter I got pg again. now, at 1 year pp I'm barely at a 2.

I had lots of stretching damage (baby no.2 got stuck on a cervical lip for 2 hrs) and lots of tearing too. no epis. but really, my perineum is a mess. and I've improved.

YOU WERE NOT STUPID, you were following medical advice and anyway, I think its nearly impossible for a mother to resist picking up a small child who desperately wants/needs to be picked up. we mothers are like that, putting our kids first. that's hardly anything to feel badly about. you've not ruined your body. this damage was largely beyond your control and look at you now- you're here, taking control and initiative to heal yourself the slow way (as opposed to surgery) because youre smart.

please keep in mind, too, that your hormones are still way out of whack. doesn't help the mood or the coping mechanism, kwim? be nice to yourself, you just brought life into this world. if that doesn't deserve kid-glove treatment for a while, I don't know what does. don't get me started about my 'society doesn't celebrate new mothers' tirade.

I wish I could come on over, give you a great big {{{{hug}}}} then take the kids for a walk while you nap. I'd even tidy up and make you dinner.

this is the worst part of it, the fear, the guilt, the hopelessness. it will get better.
{{{{hugs}}}}

I can't imagine shaking in bed is a good thing. last time that happened to me I had a nasty kidney infection and 104 temp

the shaking is only when you're laying down? like muscle spasms? or full blown shaking?
I'd probably mention it to the dr

Hi I have a mild rectocele and started Bikram after my osteo and kine suggested it would be good. It is but I avoid some of the floor postures BTW I am still BF after 18 mths. Could you tell me what alterations to the postures you made? Many thanks. You can use this site below for reference purposes so you don't have to type everything out-if you just say 1 a or whatever. Many many thanks for doing this.
best wishes

http://www.yoga-108.net/bikram_postures.htm

Hi Yolovi

I just had a look at the site you mentioned and would suggest that many of these poses would be likely to aggravate or not be helpful for prolapse.

Let me explain. WW posture realigns the upper body to more upright, and allows the lumbar curve to accentuate in its stable state. When this happens the top of both left and right sides of the pelvis rotate forwards relative to vertical and they also rotate slightly on the sacroiliac joint. The coccyx lifts and the ischial spines move apart. This tightens the pelvic floor muscles like a drum skin. No need to contract them to keep everything inside. The pelvic organs move forward over the pubic bone, and are quite well-supported in this position. You will find a clear explanation and diagrams of this in the *second* edition of Christine's book. Also, check out the FAQ's on the WW homepage, www.wholewoman.com.

Yoga poses that tilt half the pelvis backwards and half the pelvis forwards will create uneven intraabdominal forces, with abdominal compression on both sides of the abdomen, and only allow half the pelvic floor to tighten. The PF muscles on the side with the pelvis tilted backwards will loosen, so there is sideways instability for the organs to cope with as well as well. The same principle applies when you sit on a chair with your legs crossed; not a helpful habit for managing POP.

Christine Kent has developed some amendments to yoga poses that overcome this problem. You can find them in Christine's blog, "Why we need a new yoga for women", down near the bottom of the lefthand frameof your screen. The problem with standard yoga is that yoga was originally designed for men and their different pelvic anatomy. Women need to allow the lower belly freedom to expand and make room for the pelvic organs to move forwards when under pressure. This precludes some extremes of forward bending that men can do satisfactorily, or else amendment of the posture to allow the female belly room to expand freely. If you follow WW posture principles and Christine's yoga pose amendments you should be able to keep doing this yoga and not offend your POP's.

Cheers

Louise