diagram of a "normal" vagina?

Submitted by Judith on May 7, 2009 - 3:44am
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Does anyone know where I can find a diagram of a vagina without proplapse? I'm sure that I once saw another post about this but I can't find it now. I realise that I actually have very little idea of how a "normal" vagina ie no prolapses would look and feel inside. In all the years that I was inserting tampons and diaphragms pre-prolapse I didn't really pay any attention - no need (oh happy days). Now I really don't know from looking and probing how severe my pop is. I'm not at all sure that feelings/symptoms, although obviously significant in a very important sense, are necessarily a reliable objective indicator of severity. Anyway, one reason for wanting a diagram is that I use visualisation a lot, so I want to be able to visualise a non-prolapse vagina, and similarly, knowing what the non-prolapse vaginal walls feel like (to a gynae or self-exam, not subjectively)will help me to write a good self-hypnosis script. Thanks, Frances
PS not always sure I'm in the right forum category, apologies if not

louiseds

May 8, 2009 - 5:23am

Hi Frances

Try p10 of Saving the Whole Woman, edition 2 for the normal vagina/vulva diagram in Wholewoman posture, then for contrast, have a look at the one on p 85, which is the usual way we see the female pelvic region illustrated. This second version is what happens when a woman tucks her butt and tummy in, or else is the result of drawing the diagram from a cadaver, lying flat on its back, then erroneously turning it through 90 degrees (which, of course, is exactly the way that all our medical diagrams were originally drawn, but does not relate to the upright human form.) This second diagram, figure 7-5 is labelled Common Anatomical Error. You are right. It is not easy to find diagrams of the female pelvic region in its correct vertical configuration. There is a Vesalius reproduction of how a person would have to stand to have the straight spine of a cadaver and the same pelvic organ orientation as the p85 illustration, in the second edition on p84. This poor skeletal model would not be able to stand upright unaided and would probably dislocate her pubic symphysis in the process of trying. This is all explained in detail by Christine on pp83-84.

I notice that you have been a Member for over four years. If you have Saving the Whole Woman, first edition, you will not find these particular diagrams. The illustrations in the second edition are revisions of the first edition diagrams with many additions, which clarify female anatomy much better.

Cheers

Louise

Judith

May 9, 2009 - 3:48am

Once again, thank you Louise. I've been cruising around the net and there's a surprising amount of inconsistency (well, maybe not so surprising. I have got the second edition of the book and it's definitely even better than the first one. BTW, I'm jiggling, with mixed results, not sure I've quite got the knack, just raising the heels of each foot in turn, not sure if that's what you meant. But I enjoy it. best wishes Frances

louiseds

May 9, 2009 - 6:52am

Hi Frances

It is more like a vibration; it kind of shakes the organs into place, and unsticks them, kwim? Kind of like jiggling a jar of nuts so you can fit a few more in the top, or like a dog wagging its tail enthusiastically when you get home. Not rough, but very definite. Wha???

The inconsistency of existing diagrams is absolutely amazing. If you have a look at any chiropractors' x-rays, done standing up, you will see that the pelvis is unashamedly a vertical orientation (unless the pain is so crippling that the person cannot stand up straight); there is not a hint of a bowl shape, not even with men. That's because it is not possible to stand like that. Doctors rarely do x-rays standing up, and the really expensive scanning machines and x-ray machines are designed with doctors in mind. I think it is something to do with focussing of the machine.

I have had a very learned medical professor explain to me by email that it is not possible to get well-defined images when the person is standing, cos humans wobble around, I guess? I guess what he was telling me is that it doesn't matter if the biomechanics, of say a spine, is wrong for the position that causes pain, as long as the picture is in focus. Go figure. When I challenged him on this he did not return the email. I think I touched on a sensitive nerve.

Some doctors will not even examine for POP, even though the only time it manifests is when the woman is vertical. This may be because the way they visualise the pelvic contents is thinking of the diagrams (horizontal) that they learned from. These anatomical diagrams, drawn from cadavers, are probably very accurate. This is what a cadaver does when it is lying ther; spine flattens. Unfortunately you cannot stand a cadaver up in anything like the vertical posture of a live human, because their muscles cannot balance them upright, cos they can't be controlled by a brain that is dead.

Cheers

L

Judith

May 10, 2009 - 11:03am

Hi Louise

Ah ha, I think I can relate to the jiggling nuts, I'll give it a go when my last big meal has digested, thank you for that. And thanks also for the tip about downward dog - I tried it again, doing my best to retain lumbar curve and balancing more evenly between hands and feet, also not holding it for very long, and it seems to have helped rather than aggravated this time, so cheers for that.

I can't imagine any doctor that I've come across being prepared to examine a woman in standing position, it just wouldn't be impersonal enough for them to deal with I think. But presumably an ultrasound would do the job, I suppose that would also have to be in standing. I've got a full-size plastic skeleton to help me with my Alexander Technique directions and general visualisations, and because I just love looking at it, it's so amazing. It's very helpful, although I think it's male and therefore has a less pronounced lumbar curve than a woman would have and also I can't make it walk (obviously, that would be scary) or even stand as a live person would.

I'm feeling a lot better after my recent bout of cystocele and cystitis. This is what I've been doing: self-hypnosis (though not as much as I could); lots of posture and walking; fire-breathing, jiggling (sort of), downward dog; cranial osteopathy once a week; homoeopathy for prolapse and cystitis. In case anyone is interested my indicated remedies were Staphisagria 30 (3 times a day for a few days) and Sepia 30 once a day, which I'm going to do for a total of 10 days then go to 3 times a week for a few weeks. Sepia is mainly for prolapse, Staphisagria mainly for cystitis, but they both treat both. And a walk in the park gave me inspiration for a lovely visualisation, me as a swan - the bit where the neck meets the body is the lumbar curve, the body of the swan is the sacrum fanning out horizontally. It doesn't fit perfectly and I'm not sure that I've explained it very well, but it works for me.

Thanks for your brilliant replies Louise

Frances xx

louiseds

May 10, 2009 - 8:57pm

Hey Frances, that swan visualisation is *good*. I think it is more than a visualisation. There are a lot of animals with long necks that apply the same principles of movement as swans, as do we. The head and what we do with it is so important. Isn't that an Alexander Technique emphasis? If you put imaginary dots on different points on the body of an animal or human it looks to me like walking, swimming, flying etc all involve circular or oval or figure eight movements. There is no zigzagging; not much sudden stop-start, or backwards-forwards. Sometime the circle is quite small, but it always seems to be there. I love watching giraffes move because these little movements are magnified by the length of their necks and limbs. Do you know what I mean?

Granolamom posted a long time ago about the figure eight tracking of the pelvis during walking. You might be able to find the post by searching "centre gravity sacrum" or "center gravity sacrum".

Also, does your skeleton have moveable joints at the sacroiliac and pubic joints?

The jiggling is all very unscientific, but I think things like jiggling and your swan visualisation are very useful for illustrating things that are very hard to put into words. I guess that's why we have similes and metaphors as parts of language. There are some things that can only be explained by visualising and comparing.

Cheers

Louise

Judith

May 11, 2009 - 3:08am

Hi Louise
Thank you. Yes, all the stuff aabout animals and how they use their necks and heads is very pertinent and completely in line with Alexander Technique. In fact my teacher has a lovely picture of meerkats, the way they use their heads is a fantastic demonstration of "let the neck be free". One of the things that can be learnt from observing the way that animals move and use their bodies (and also babies and very small children)is that everything is without inappropriate tension. BTW, one of the benfits of focussing on the head/neck relationship (as per AT) is that it stops you "thinking down", easy to slip into when the symptoms are evident.
Sadly my skeleton doesn't have moveable SI and pubic joints, maybe that's for the super deluxe model.

I'll definitely check out the walking thing. Re walking, my AT teacher also taught me to imagine the rib cage swinging around to the side of the sternum in the opposite direction to the forward-moving leg, rather like an Archimedes screw movement, so that you don't only "think up" but think of spiralling up from the rib cage. I know that I haven't explained it well, sorry, but it may make more sense if you do it whilst walking. I find it very helpful, and, again, it prevents "thinking down".

Must go now. Just wondering, is there a list anywhere of members suggestions for what works well for them for the various prolapses and associated conditions? Stuff doesn't always show up on a search, or at least takes ages to find. I think that there must be lots of creative ideas like your jiggling. best wishes Frances
PS Forgive me for being completely ignorant about some of this newfangled texting/email lingo, but what is KWIM? Somebody kindly explained DD, DS etc.