rectocele and cystocele only (uterus in place)

the book is not a 'cookbook' type of thing, where you can look up symptoms and get a list of things to do for them. its a primer on what the female anatomy looks like in health, what a prolapse is (anatomically speaking), how it develops, how to prevent prolapse, how to manage prolapse, etc.
the thing is, while lots of us share similar experiences with the exercises and posture, there are lots of variations. I'll bet each of us has our own interpretation of the posture, for example, and that makes sense since every body has its own history and story so to speak.
the book also is a philosophy, and understanding of how to help our bodies regain optimal support for the pelvic organs and this is the same regardless of which of the prolapses you may have.
so I guess what I'm saying is thst the book is a valuable resource (in my opinion) for anyone dealing with any kind of prolapse. I can double check and see if there is a chapter on specific prolapses, but I honestly don't remember off hand (and by the way, I also have cyctocele and rectocele but uterus was in place).

as far as the bulge you are describing, sounds like rectocele to me

and with 4 under 4, I'm impressed that you get *any computer time.

Wow - 4 kids under 4 - That must be fun.

As your celes are only mild I would say you may have an infection or something causing the swelling etc.

Even if mild if you are on your feet chasing 4 kids all day in the evening you may feel a dragging etc.

The way my mother and I worked out what was what is below (Cheating and cutting and pasting from another post lol)

As your kids are so young - Try to lift them less and get them to climb up to you instead of you lifting them as much (Obviously dont work as well with babies who cannot climb lol)

...
Ok - you put one or two fingers in and you feel a kinda sausage centrally - that is the cervix etc - The actual entrance to the womb is only about 4 inches long. This space not being a real space just a 'potential' space - ie - when something enters it is a space - when not entered - the sides close together.

It you cannot feel right around your 'sausage' then it is not the cervix you are feeling - If you can only go around half way like it is behind a wall to the front - that would be a cystocele (bladder prolapse) if the lump is behind the wall to the rear (harder to feel) this would be a rectocele - Bowel prolapse

Hope that helps a little

Sue

m ah
I strongly encourage you to just get the book if you can. You can find it used, cheap on Amazon. Having just recently confirmed my "celes" it has taken me from ready to go into surgery for the temporary " vaginal face lift" to really wanting to give my body a chance to show me how well it can heal and function "Wholly" without the intervention of surgery. There is no need to rush. It took me years to get to this place, without "thinking" about it, I know that with focus and a positive attitude (which the book helped me find again) I can and will reverse this, or at the very least greatly improve. I have only been using her techniques for three days and I feel a gigantic leap of improvement. Even my husband has noticed a difference in the "strength" of my "grip" ! (if you will) I am pumped.
Don't allow doubt to enter your mind. Take 20 minutes a day and do the simple excercises in the book. You babies can play on the floor near you and it will be good for them to see and experience a Mama who takes care of herself.
My " babies" are grown, but I remember now how I always excercised around them and why after they were older and I went back to work I let it slip away is a puzzle to me, I know I can take it back and re-start what I took for granted. Do it. I am, and so can you.
I think of the pelvic floor awareness as a version of "smiling" (at myself) Blessings and good luck!

I foudn the cystocele about 2 years ago, my youngest was a year and a half at the time. but thinking back I did notice a small bulge shortly after his birth but thought nothing of it.

I found the rectocele (depressingly) shortly after beginning the posture here.
my midwife is real laid back about these things, I didn't get a number, grade or anything like that, which is fine for me.

initially I felt the cystocele bulging out all the time. now I don't feel it at all. the rectocele is visible if I look for it (which I've learned not to do) and uncomfortable only if I neglect my diet.

at the beginning I did feel much worse at the end of the day. among other things I've learned to slow down some, to stop and smell the roses so to speak and that's made a world of a difference in terms of the 'celes and my emotional wellbeing.

I'm not a very athletic type, but I did walk every day. I didn't give that up, but in the beginning I did slow down and make sure I was walking in the posture. in a very short time I was back to my normal routine and actually found it beneficial for prolapses. don't know much about posture on a bike, would have to give that some more thought. but you CAN be active with prolapse. I still run around with the kids, now limited only by normal pg complaints.

sex is still fantastic, no pain. took me a while to get over the 'I'm a disfigured freak' phase though, but now its all good : )

and YES I stopped doing kegels. they weren't doing anything for me aside from aggravating the rectocele.

Thanks, m ah, for your endorsement of STWW! I just want to reinforce to our newer readers that the second edition, available as a pre-publication edition from the whole woman

store, is an exceedingly upgraded version.

Amazon will recycle first edition copies forever, but the second edition is the one to buy. :)

Help....
I have recently discovered I have a cystocele and rectocele..by OB. See a urogynecologist at the end of August.It makes me SO angry that people keep this so quiet..like it is a dirty little secret. I do feel damaged. Sexless, etc. If I had known this was a complication of pregnancy I am not sure I would have had a third!!
I am TRYING to stay calm but HOW??????? If my husband can't have sex(not that I even WANT to at this enormous size) and I can't exercise my marriage and basically my life is going to be a nightmare. Never mind that I cant pick up my kids! 4y 2.5y, 3 weeks. Let's be honest the ONLY thing that can FIX a rectocele is surgery.
I am not a light exerciser. I WORK OUT 1-2 hours a day. I run half marathons and do mini triathlons. PLUS I can't do my job without heavy lifting(RN). I have to be honest if surgery would fix this I would do it. ANYONE out there had the surgery or a pessary and can now REALLY work out.
I was looking for Momof4...know it has been 2 years since you posted but I wondered if you are back to exercising??

Dear Devastated,

I'm so sorry that you're feeling the devastation, especially at a time when you should be just enjoying your young family. If you read other posts on here you'll discover firstly that that is probably THE most common reaction (and we all get past it) and secondly that, at 3 weeks post-partum (if I've read your post correctly) this is very very early days and everything will improve enormously, especially if you start following the advice on here. THe pp body continues changing for at least a year.

Also, if you read posts on here, you'll discover that swimming and biking are definitely not problems. There are other people on here who run (eg Christine) - you'd have to wait until you've stabilised and do it in posture.
Heavy lifting - that would be more of a problem, don't know if anyone else can advise here.

Surgery won't "fix" the rectocele so that you can lift heavy things, if anything it will limit you even more as you'll be told not to exceed a certain number of pounds (I've read 5, 10, any more than that anyone?). In addition, surgery has many potential risks and usually needs to be done again several years down the line (when it becomes even riskier and less likely to "succeed"), so it's not something to be undertaken lightly.

In any event, what would you get out of it? Using WW techniques you'll be able to resume your workouts, probably modified if you currently do weight-lifting, but you'll be able to regain your fitness. And you'd definitely be able to lift less, not more, after surgery.

Re lifting generally (ie not weight-training and for your job), I had a very bad back problem when my children were small and they simply learned how to climb on me, rather than have me lift them, I put them on my lap to go up and down stairs, etc. It was amazing how they could do all sorts of thing quite young.

Many women on here, myself included, manage symptoms pretty well by using the sea sponge or other pessaries.

So, bleak as it may seem at the moment, just give yourself a breathing space to acknowledge that hormones and tiredness play a big part in how you feel, emotionally and physically. There's loads of support, information, tips and kindness on here, including from many young mothers in similar situations, so I suggest that you just enjoy your children, think in terms of allowing your body to heal itself whilst you do everything you can to support that, know that you will resume sex and physical activity as and when your body becomes ready.
Please don't despair, your life is by no means over. The decision about surgery can only be yours. Why not read up, make a plan, give yourself a deadline (1yr/18 mths?), take stock then but don't even think about surgery until your chosen deadline. I hope that your obgyn will at least have the sense to advise you that surgery is not even to be considered so soon after giving birth, and, more than that, give you full information about the risks and "success" rates.

I wish you all the best Judith xx

Dear Devastated,

I too found my rectocele and cystocele at 3 weeks pp. I have 4 children 6y, almost 4y, 2y, and just 6 weeks today. I am also an excercise fanatic, and was contemplating becoming a pilates instructor before I was pregnant with my fourth. I also loved to lift, & run and hope to get back to it. I have also had the same feelings as if I knew then this could happen would I have gone for #4?? I was so excited to have my 4th, then be me again... As much as I love him, this has taken so much joy away. So, you are not alone, it is so much to contend with. As for sex, I did try already and my husband didn't notice anything different. I am picking up my 2yr old again, I just breathe out when I lift her and make sure I lift with my legs. Even carrying the car seat with the infant is something you can't avoid, so just remember to be careful. The breathing out helps. I have heard that the surgery is a good 3 month recovery of no lifting over 10 lbs. not sure about after?? Something for the urogyno to answer (I too am going in Aug). But not something we could even consider with children so young. I am going to try and give it a year before making any descions like that. I couldn't imagine not holding my baby through so much of his infancy. I am also hoping for a miracle...in the meantime I will share with you a few things I am going to try....First I am trying to recover mentally, I can't go on like this as it is no good for myself or my family, I am going for a pessary tomorrow in hopes that if I don't feel the bulge everyday I will feel better emotionally, and I am watching my diet and trying to keep my digestive system as healthy as possible. I am also trying acupuncture for my symptoms, and kegels for the cystocele. There is a lot of great advice and support from the caring women here. I hope the healing comes soon for us both, we have two new babies who need us!

Hi Devastated

Sorry if this response seems a bit over-the-top, but I think you are spending way too much time and energy exercising at three weeks postpartum, unless you are under the care of a trainer who has lots of experience specifically in the area of postpartum training for elite sport. Heavy exertion postpartum can lead to serious prolapse problems because the body is trying to revert after pregnancy, apart from prolonging the lochia. Ask the women in Nepal @ The Advocacy Project website. Please ensure that the exercise you are doing are not sending intraabdominal forces straight down your vagina. Your pelvic organs are very much at risk of abuse at this time because their positions are still inherently unstable. Please ensure that you keep them well forward while exercising, over the pubic bone. Does your Ob know you are doing all this working out before your 6 week pp checkup? I should be yelling this at you.

Now, if I have your story wrong, I am really sorry. Please correct me.

Yeah, it annoys me intensely too, that it seems to be a dirty little secret. I can only suggest that you do your bit and publicise it, get it out in the open. Having POP is nothing to be ashamed of. Being big after pregnancy is nothing to be ashamed of. It is fat storage for making milk for your baby. Of course you feel Sexless. That is nothing to do with POP either. It is because you have just given birth and the Creator designed you that way so you wouldn't go out looking for sex when you should be in a safe place, making sure your baby doesn't get stolen by a hungry wolf!! This too will pass.

IMAO, the OB has no business telling any postpartum woman that she has prolapse when she has just given birth. Of course all your fascia are still loose and allow your organs to descend. It takes 12 months at least for them all to shrink back, then more for several years. Don't even think about having the rest of your life with POP for at least 12 months. If you do end up with POP, all the exercise you are doing won't be helping it. And put the idea of surgery well and truly out of your head too, until you have tried all the Wholewoman stuff. BTW, it will probably get worse before it gets better. Concensus seems to be that 3-5 months is the worst.

Now, chin up, and get on with loving that man of yours in other ways, loving and caring for your baby, and investing wisely for the future in the wellbeing of your body. Lecture over.

Louise

You are three weeks postpartum? Really? The others are right. How you are now does not reflect how you may be in a year to 18 months pp. I found my cystocele at 5 weeks pp, and now at almost 8 months, I am miles away from my condition then. Miles. (How fully I will be able to reverse it, only time will tell. But even now, I can see that it is going to place very few limits on my lifestyle). As an RN, would you advise a patient to work out hard three weeks post-op? No. A pregnancy and birth are big events for a body and it needs time to recover. Consider that in the UK, they determine that a minimum of six months is needed for the vagina to fully involute following birth, and will not assess for prolapse surgery for a year because so much natural healing can happen. In China, the postpartum period is a full two years! So please, rest for now as much as possible, and employ some prolapse friendly techniques as described here to help your healing along. Walk for exercise. Once your lochia stops, use a tampon or a sea sponge tampon to help keep the bulges at bay. Women's bodies are the stuff of miracles, but really, we're not meant to do all those super-active supermom stuff we might like too. At least not soon postpartum!

Oh, and about sex. . . there is no reason you can't have it (really, men can't tell a difference) unless you don't feel ready. I'll admit, I was very self conscious until about two months ago, but now things are really, really great. Sex is very good for prolapse! I also advise getting some emotional support from whatever source feels right. Baby blues + prolapse discovery = depression. Not fun, I know.

Keep this in mind too: Most every postpartum woman I've come across here has improved by 2 or more grades. I think that provides enormous hope!

Best wishes

Tank you deep breath!!! you have made me feel better!! I don't want to work out hard...I just want to walk...am even too afraid to do that!!! But I think I will try a few minutes here and there and so I can sort of use a tampon as a sort of pessary...becuase I dont think my obgyn will fit me for one..have to wait till aug...

Hi all
NO NO sorry I am not ready to get back into it I just want to know if I WILL SOMEDAY be able to do what I used to do!! Sex and exercise.!!! I am just strolling around the block for 10 min right now!

Sorry Louise and 518 and workoutmommy and all the others who replied! Thank you...
I meant to say that I want to get back to working out 1-2 hours a day...i just want to know that I can someday...I did do too much after my first and second and realize now that I need to rest. It just seems that everywhere I go or everything I read seems to be so BLEAK...I am willing to wait as long as it takes BUT I need to know it will not be like this forever. Where are the people who are back to normal?? I guess doing so well they don't need to post??

Thank you all for your time and posts. 518? I think that is you...in the past 2 days I have realized the same thing. The way I feel right now isn't helping anyone..so I have to snap out of it and try to remember that things can always be worse and to be thankful for what I have!!!!! Still it is a raw deal and I AM still angry that it seems to be so secretive...I mean I can't be the ONLY person with this problem if the HUGE urogynecologist practice with 5 doctors cant see me until aug. and that is one of the males...the female is booked until NOV!!! So really how many people are dealing with this?????

Hi devastated,

It WILL get better. It is HARD to be patient, I know, but trust all the women on here, it will be better. You are only 3 weeks pp, and have lots and lots of healing to do. I discovered my prolapse during my 2nd pregnancy, I'm now 22 weeks pp and feeling soooo much better. There are actually moments through the day when I don't notice it. I'm leading a fairly active life i.e. lots of walking wearing baby, doing the ww DVD workout, and lots of housework etc. I try to stay in posture all the time, and rarely sit on furniture - just the floor, cross-legged, or on my ankles. Spend some time on the website and look at old posts from postpartum women i.e. granolmom, alemama, fullofgrace, etc. Many of them have reported that they are asymptomatic, and some of them are still not done having babes!.....You are right, prolapse is this thing shrouded in mystery. No one tells you about it,i.e. they tell you not to lift heavy things while pregnant, or early postpartum, but WHY? I make a point of telling people about my prolapse and try to educate them. Of course, I would never have believed it would have happened to me if someone warned me!!!.....Anyway, just know the first few months are tough, and then you WILL see improvements. Read the book and the website and learn about posture and lifestyle tips....I"ll be sending healing vibes your way. Take care and keep us posted.

Hey, no probs Devastated. You are not in a good space now, but thankfully I now understand that you just want to know what is possible so you can go for it, like "can I take 5 minutes off my PB for a half marathon?" I am so relieved!

Unfortunately, it isn't like can I take 5 minutes off my time. It is more like, "I wonder what my PB will be, and will I be able to stay at that PB until I want to quit? I'll see how I go trying to take off 30 seconds next time." You just have to suck it and see. Give your body time. Your body will appreciate it. Read Christine's book so you have a clear picture of what is happening in your pelvic cavity during different types of exercise. Once you understand all the anatomy you can start doing different things in different ways to see if you start feeling 'the bulge' or pressure, or if your body reacts badly the following day. It is only time and experimentation that will tell you. You may not be able to do something now, but be able to try it again in 6 months, and it might be OK. You just have to respect what your body is doing at the moment, and be patient. If you cannot do it at twelve months post partum, try and work out different ways you can acheive the same aim. Or just shift the goalposts 30 degrees to the right.

I can see that you are a very competitive person, so you'll just have to figure out ways of getting that satisfaction in ways that are not going to send your pleasure gear down the plughole. It may be that you choose a different sport, or compete at a different level, or whatever. Or it might just take time to get to where you want to be. My body is nowhere near as floppy on the inside at 22 years postpartum as it was when I was 2 years postpartum. Yes, I have developed significant POP over the years, but I now trust my body and have a fair idea what I can and can't do. I seem to be able to do just as much as other women my age, if not more.

Your comment about the waiting lists at all the urogyns is indeed revealing. Yes, they are booked up because they have a lot of work on their books. The secrecy bothers me a lot. We have seen attempts to de-stigmatise lots of things in the last few years. Mental illness, obesity, child abuse, depression and probably lots of others. But wounded pleasure gear is still well and truly under wraps. We don't even speak about healthy genitals openly. We have difficulty saying the correct anatomical terms. It is a big ask to speak openly about damaged ones.

I am doing a job application at the moment. There is a section on the application form where I have to list health issues that might impinge on my ability to do the job. It is a big challenge for me to write down that "I have POP that means that I prefer not to lift more than 12kg by myself". It will probably not be a problem on the job, but I am going to put it down because it is just another health issue. If they ask me about it at the interview, I will deal with it, probably better than the interviewing panel. Having said that, I have been involved in Wholewoman for about 5 years, so I have worked through most of the discomfort about talking about it. I just have to be careful not to be too candid, and embarrass others, which just makes the stigma worse for those following me.

I feel really sorry for people who are put off, or even freaked out by it. It is really just another monster under the bed. Once you have made friends with that space under the bed monsters don't bother you any more. Making friends with the space kills the fear. And it is really only fear that you are fearful of. As has been said in other posts, we haven't yet found a woman with POP whose whole uterus has come all the way out and stayed out. Wholewoman techniques teach us how to reduce our symptoms and get on with our lives, POP's and all. It is only fear, and lack of trust that we need to get to know.

See ya

Louise

I've just been scanning the posts here, short on time, but want to let everybody know
I AM BACK TO NORMAL

yes, if you go looking up my skirt you can find a bulgy anterior vaginal wall and (when not pg) a slightly lower than used-to-be uterus.
but I - meaning ME and MY LIFE- am back to normal. I do not think about this regularly. I go about my life completely unimpaired and unhindered by prolapse.

it was not bravery that helped me make the decision to have another baby. it was a decision made like the decisions to have the first three - had absolutely NOTHING to do with prolapse. because the prolapse just didn't figure into the equation. I was just as confident in my body's ability to carry and birth a child as I was before I ever found the prolapse.

I didn't get there in a few weeks, or months. it was more like a year and a half, iirc.
baby steps, you know. I didn't just wait around for it to magically happen, it took hard work, psychologically, I mean. the posture and the exercise and changing my diet were the easy parts.
and I never went to a urogyn because honestly, what more than being completely back to normal could they possibly have to offer me?

Thank you yet again. Yes I have already begun to shift my focus...trying to be thankful for what I DO have...and if I can't run again well then I will cycle and swim...running isn't that great for the joints anyway :).
I hear you on the job application. I am trying not to worry about that either..I am an ICU Rn and ALOT of our patients are over 400lbs and we have to turn them every two hours...even with help this is heavy lifting..not to mention running a dialysis machine lifting bags that are 8liters..? My husband says someone is telling me it is time for a job change.
I too would struggle but I think you should go for it. After all IS it OUR fault..no!
I was just thinking about my boys. I have never understood why some parents give fake names to the genitals. I remember when I was in the other room and my husband was changing our then 20 month olds diaper "That's a pe--- right there" Yup no sugar coating here..
Anyway god luck with your job...I will get the book and get on with things over here!!

My condition matches yours exactly.
I ordered the video with hopes of clearing up all of my questions. I have tried the kegels and I am still having the pressure and pain. I think the kegels made me feel worse. I am a dance instructor and I don't mind exercising, but what exercises will help? I am putting my hopes on the video.

Do you start out the day feeling ok and get worse pain and pressure as the day progresses? Can you sit upon your rear?
Does anyone know if a rectocele can shrink back? Does having a rectocele cause you to pass more gas later in the day? Should you be looked at by a G.I. doctor if you have a rectocele?

So many questions! I asked my gyno and she just looked at me, crossed her arms and shrugged her shoulders.

You say you stopped the kegels as they were aggravating our rectocele. How did they make you feel? Did you experience rectal spasm? Soreness?
I am trying to understand what is going on with my body.
What are your other symptoms?
Don't mean to be so needy. Any info would help.

Hi Willow

No need to feel guilty as well as needy. That's cool. Everybody is needy to some degree when they arrive here, newly diagnosed, or having sussed out for themselves that POP is the culprit.

Hmm, your gyno was probably being conservative and realistic when she shrugged and crossed her arms. Great body language, eh? Poor darling can't really help that she wasn't taught all this stuff in medical school. Doctors are largely ignorant of the way a woman's pelvic organs interact with reach other, her skeleton, her muscles and her fascial structure when she is standing. They think a woman's pelvis sits the same when she is lying down as it does when she is standing up, so they assume that the pelvic floor is the problem, and that the way to fix it is to hitch everything up again from the inside and take the pressure off the pelvic floor. Not so.

Your doctor, however, may be realistic enough to realise that the surgical repairs that are done are fraught with hidden risks and unpredictable complications, so she doesn't want anything to do with them. Goodo!! She is probably only one step away from understanding the Wholewoman model of pelvic anatomy. Encourage her to visit the site and learn about it, and she will have something she can offer to women like you, rather than perpetuating the myth that there isn't a lot you can do about it.

I think you will find the DVD very helpful. Then you might like to buy the book, which will give you a deep, but very user-friendly theoretical knowledge of the female pelvis and how it works, and interracts with the pelvic organs, as well as an excellent chapter on most of the the surgical repair procedures that are done, their success (and failure) rates and the complications and things that can go wrong afterwards. The surgical chapter is all referenced from mainstream medical journals, so doctors should know all this stuff and warn their patients, but often they don't.

Yes, I do find that POP can get worse during the day. I think the reason that you get more wind later in the day is that a rectocele seems to hide the fullness sensation of the bowel, and kind of mixes up the signals our brain gets, so we tend not to empty the bowel as well as we could. Then gas will come through and get stuck behind stool in a full bowel, rather than expanding the bowel itself. Therefore, there is nowhere for it to go except past the stool and out with a Phhhttt! That's why keeping your bowel well-hydrated and containing lots of fibre, and attending to the need to empty the bowel is so important. Oh yes, while on that subject, don't ever strain when you are moving your bowel. It will just make the rectocele worse.

Whatever happens, and no matter what you choose to do about POP, there is no cure. Surgical repairs often result in further POP (then more surgery), because they further destabilise the pelvic region. You and the rest of us will always have POP, or be prone to symptoms of it. The Wholewoman model is about stabilising the pelvic region, giving the pelvic organs a solid pubic bone as support rather than a rather weak pelvic floor (which is more like a wall, actually); giving the pelvic organs room to rest against the lower abdominal wall by wearing non-constricting clothing; feeding the body well to ensure smoother bowel function, and strengthening the whole body and learning ways of using physical exercises and manoeuvres to reposition the pelvic organs. This is the way to reduce your symptoms.

A GI doctor won't be much help either, because there is nothing wrong with the way your digestive tract is working. The problem is that there is a kink in the pipe that prevents smooth emptying. He might just refer you back to a gyno, or want to do the same operation himself.

Asking a GI doctor (or gyno) is like asking a plumber to fix a garden hose that is squashed under your car wheel. The plumber could dig the hose out, cut the hose, put a solid piece of rigid pipe onto the hose under the car wheel so it won't squash the hose again, join up the hose again and fill in the hole. Tomorrow the car will come along and park on a different part of the hose, and squash it again. If you continue this way you will end up with the hose progressively replaced with rigid pipe, and your bank balance going into the red. This precludes using it as a hose ever again because the rigid pipe will no longer bend.

The solution of course is to get the owner of the car to park the car more carefully so the hose is not under the wheel. There is nothing wrong with hose. It is not a 'plumber' problem. A plumber will not fix the problem, just make the water come out again until somebody else parks on top of the hose. Kapiche?

Keep reading posts and ask more questions and use the Search box to find relevant posts, and you will slowly learn how we do it, and how we can come up with ways of keeping the hose free to empty itself. Your symptoms will probably not abate overnight, but they probably will as you learn more about how your pelvic region works and the different ways you can reposition your pelvic organs. It does get easier eventually. You will have temporary setbacks, but you will eventually realise that your symptoms are less and you can manage them OK, and don't have to have the fearful threat of surgery hanging over your head.

Cheers

Louise