rectocele and kegels

I love your name ;)
Based on what you said, it sounds to me that random kegels without concern for the structure of your pelvic floor could easily cause a rectocele. Sure is a shame that people giving such blanket advice such as 'do your kegels' are so unaware of the effects, particularly in women who do not have a uterus. What position were you in when you did your kegels? It is my understanding that kegels tend to pull everything into the vacancy left behind when the uterus is gone, so it makes sense that you developed a rectocele.
We don't know the long term effects of WW for women who have had a hysterectomy....but there are quite a few here....and this is how we all learn. It certainly can't hurt and many women have found some benefits post-hysterectomy.
What if you did some leg lifts - on all fours and using your gluteal muscles to extend alternate legs up into the air? Surely this is a low risk exercise for most people with rectoceles?

"It is my understanding that kegels tend to pull everything into the vacancy left behind when the uterus is gone"

What vacancy? My uterus was tiny when it was removed, it was just horribly diseased. And as I understand it ;) the uterus shrinks with age anyway. Pondering here.

I have had no problems with Kegels - I do the 2-step Kegel recommended by Tasha Mulligan and the elasticity of my PF muscles and blood flow to the pelvic floor have improved. Granted I also walk around in posture the whole day so my PF is working the whole time, but when I do my few sets of 2-steps per day, I can feel the difference.

My prolapses have decreased in size, never graded them, in the 2 years since I 'found' them and this I attribute to posture and breath. I have never been sedentary and do everything now that I did pre-hyst - the TA muscles are key here and never allowing downward pressure on the pelvic floor - lift that chest!

Colourburst, I think what has happened here is that you were unaware of the 'softening' of your vaginal tissue and when you were applying the cream, you became more aware of your body and realised that something was different. I would not have noticed the change in my vaginal tone if I had not been applying some lubrication to ease some dryness - I have really never had much interest in feeling around in body cavities!

Here is a great exercise for strengthening that back vaginal wall courtesy of Edgar Cayce:

"# In a standing position (without shoes) gradually rise up on the toes, raising your arms in front at the same time, until they are as high as you can reach.

# Still stretched out, slowly bend forward from the waist, with a clutching-the-air motion as you come down, until you can touch the floor. You’ll feel the anal muscle pulling in.

# Do this at least once morning and evening, and it will gradually strengthen the anal sphincter, guarding you against future hemorrhoid attacks."

.... And strengthen the vagina, try it, you'll see.

Thank you, PiaMom, for reminding me of Edgar Cayce. I am 62. When I was younger I read him a lot. I never realized Christine had us strenthing the upper body so it would NOT sink down on the lower parts. What you said is very well put.

When you get on your toes and reach up and then you said bend from the waist and touch the floor. When you bend from the waist to touch the floor do you still stay raised up on your toes during the bend down?
Heavenly

Strangely enough I was doing this exercise on my toes until I watched this video and saw that one does eventually drop back on to one's heels!
Exercise video clip

"What vacancy? My uterus was tiny when it was removed, it was just horribly diseased. And as I understand it ;) the uterus shrinks with age anyway. Pondering here." Well then, you might as well just yank it out ;) Rightio. I know you are new here, but if you do some reading and listening to the stories told you might see the incredible fallacy of this reasoning.
There is a huge difference to what you describe in terms of maintaining proper posture and accentuating this with appropriate kegels and what I referred to, which is random pulling in of the pelvic floor with no relation to how the anatomy of the pelvic organ support system is actually structured or how the physiology of the tissues actually works.

Thanks PiaMom, the You Tube was helpful!

Heavenly

Hi Piamom

I am pondering too. What do you mean when you say your uterus was horribly diseased? Did they tell you exactly what was wrong with it? I am not being smart here. Just curious.

Louise

Piamom, your uterus may have been “tiny” when it was removed, but its ligamentous system was larger than the entire pelvic interior and in fact wrapped around your body in almost 360 degrees. Not only were those connective supports helping to keep your uterus in place, but they also held your bony pelvis together - three bones, five moveable joints. Pelvic expansion is a widely observed phenomenon post-hysterectomy. What has not yet been studied is how such significant skeletal destabilization might effect the hip joints and the lumbar spine, which is commonly flattened in these women.

I don't want to get into a debate about hysterectomy, I think all aspects of the operation have been discussed in other posts. My uterus was removed after years of debilitating symptoms and finally after the situation became life threatening a hysterectomy became unavoidable.

I have not experienced any of the skeletal symptoms you refer to Christine, certainly no pelvic destablilization. In fact post-hyst I am healthier, physically, emotionally and spiritually than I was before. My illness had me dwelling on my body's shortcomings and made me extremely self-centred. Post-hyst I am more aware of what my body needs to function optimally and my body has proven to be remarkably resilient. Conscious movement, conscious breathing, conscious speech (I do slip here as Fab knows only too well) and good nutrition are what drives me now to maximise my physical and spiritual vitality.

Aza, I read the first ed. of STWW early last year, followed that up with the 2nd ed. (and the DVD) and have read avidly on this forum for at least 18 months. I feel as though I know everyone personally and there are some vibrant voices that I miss - 'where are the Jackquies?'. I might be newish to posting, but am not new to the ideas of WW. I hope to be able to learn even more and maybe contribute to overcoming obstacles that are placed in our path to health by posting occasionally.

Hi PiaMom,

Your positive attitude and lack of difficult symptoms is very good to hear about and I'm happy that you feel healthy and whole. The only thing missing from your posts, however, is recognition that extremely difficult and life-long symptoms do happen to a huge percentage of post-hysterectomy women. This is part of the denial strategy at work in the hysterectomy debate and we just need to remain conscious of it.

Christine

I am certainly not in denial, I am all too aware of the problems that surround any major surgical intervention and the aftermath of organ removal. However, in order for me to live confidently and happily in the Now I have chosen not to dwell on negatives, rather I allow positive thoughts and actions to dominate my reality. Being a victim does not sit well with me. Is it not true that among people who are ill, those who remain hopeful and have a positive attitude tend to do better?

Lanny has just said, in his most recent post, exactly what I feel - 'I decided to change my posture and stand tall and move intentionally and amazingly just that brought about transformation in my attitude from burdened to energized and optimistic. How amazing that the body and mind are so intertwined.'

Welcome, happy days, Mama Harper, Grunbug,jane123, and Mary Stearnsd!! I have not been on this site for a long time but long enough to know the importance. If you have not ordered the DVD or book I would encourage you to do so if you can. Incredible information all the way around. Wishing you all well and don't be shy about posting! We love you and we are family here on WWW.

Blessings
Heavenly

Hi PiaMom, you have chosen to live a full life, and I admire you so for it. One could have any of many disadvantages thrown at her and choose any number of responses. You have not been bowed by this!

And while we are at this, let's leave the ladder down and ready for our sisters, and for that matter our brother, because much happens to all of us, and yet we still can move onward together. Let's be careful of labels because without knowing it our perceptions, or even our perceptions as they are perceived, are often what people become. If we say that someone is good at something, they become even better at it. And, well........

I love the Japanese language because they refuse to speak for anyone else. If someone is telling what someone else likes or dislikes, one has to use a certain ending that identifies that it as an opinion and not a fact. Let the women who have had histerectomies, each one, speak for herself! If we feel that they have been robbed, let's not rob them of their own opinions too!!

Hello,

I recently noticed a bulging from my vagina and thought it was an emergency situation. I was scared. I was planning a trip to the emergency room, but called my obgyn first. He returned my call within 10 minutes and assured me it wasn't an emergency. When I saw him he diagnosed it as a rectocele and gave me Premarin cream with an applicator and told me to do Kegels. He mentioned surgery but felt that it might cause more problems (due to the vaginal wall being so thin), like fecal matter in the vagina. Ewwww! I am in no pain and have no elimination problems, I just have this pressure & bulge when I'm on my feet too long. I gave up my 3 times a week exercise class for one week, then decided I am NOT going to let this control my life and started doing my exercise classes again. I am back to doing everything I want to do in my busy life, but I'm spending much more time on my butt between activities. I so want to do what is best and was disappointed to read on WW that there's not much hope for those of us who've had hysterectomies. My hysterectomy was 18 years ago for prolapsed uterus and have had no problems until now. I'm a bit confused about doing Kegels and will continue to research. Thank you!

Welcome Lari

I encourage you to do whatever you can to stabilise your pelvis. You may get some benefit from Wholewoman techniques. You will never know until you try.

Re the faecal matter in the vagina, I have asked on the Forums before if anybody has ever had a pelvic organ actually break through the vaginal wall. The silence was deafening.

If you have quoted your doctor accurately, and interpreted correctly that he is talking about the risk of getting fecal matter in the vagina I think he has rocks in the head, and is trying to scare you with b*******.

There is the rectal wall which has both vertical and horizontal muscle bands inside it, then the damaged fascia layer, then the (thin) vaginal wall in between your poo and your vagina. Before the poo can get into your vagina it has to break through the lining of the rectum and two strong but thin walls of muscle in the rectal wall, and get across the pelvic interior and break through your vaginal wall. It is going to cause a lot more problems between your rectum and your vagina before it can get into your vagina, which is a self-draining organ. Yes, the entrance to your urethra is there (another self-cleaning organ), but this entrance is probably already easily contaminated by faeces from contact with your knickers.

I suggest that you go back and ask him if he has ever had a patient with the same fragile vaginal tissue who has had faeces break through into her vagina. If he has, I for one would like to know, so please post the details so we all know another fact.

Oestrogen creams, tablets etc stimulate the surface cells of the vaginal walls, not the muscular,structural parts of it. See http://www.answers.com/topic/vagina-6 .

Faecal matter in the vagina is usually a result of rectovaginal fistula, usually, but not always caused by obstructed labour, which results in the tissue between the vagina and rectum being squashed together for a long time, usually by the foetal head, against the pelvic brim, and the squashed tissue dies, leaving a hole between the two, and the edges of the vagina and the edges of the rectum joining together, leaving a hole, which allows faeces into the vagina, instead of building up in the rectum.

I am not trying to tell you not to use the Premarin cream, but there are other alternatives that will stimulate the growth of vaginal epithelium, which might make your vaginal lining more resilient, and provide the lubrication between the vaginal walls that allows them to slip over each other and maintain comfort, and allow you to get your rectum back up and forward again, if this is possible. When your hysterectomy was done the surgeon may have inserted sutures which will make it difficult for you to reposition your rectum and colon. I am not a medical expert. Your surgeon will be able to tell you where your vaginal vault has been tethered.

Whatever happens, don't be driven by false fear into making decisions about your treatment. You may have misinterpreted his comments. I certainly hope so.

Louise

Hi Caley and Louise,

No one at WW edited Lari's post. I also read her post several days ago and was too tired to respond (fighting a bug) and here it is again dated November 20. I have noticed other members have bumped their posts up to the top, so that an older post is seen again as new - but I'm not certain how the editing feature works for members - only that they cannot delete theirs or other member's posts. I will find out more. I also wrote Lari. I found six threads in which Piamom has contributed.

I am going to make this very clear. There are websites and practitioners on the Internet who are detractors of WW. They teach and follow a method of prolapse treatment we believe to be not only worthless, but destructive to the progress of educating women about their anatomy. Every once in a while we have an skirmish with someone wanting to push their viewpoint and it always ends the same - deleting both the offending poster and the offending posts.

Sorry if you find this objectionable (or "dictatorial"), but we are determined to keep this work pure of negative influences. You are welcome to talk about anything you want, but when the conversation turns to "pull your navel up and in" and the "pelvic basket", etc., we are going to strongly object.

Christine

Lari was very gracious in answering both mine and Caley's emails. Thank you Lari! Yes, she edited her own post, which is perfectly okay!

I also unblocked Piamom's account for those of you who wish to contact her. I couldn't care less what happens behind the scenes - unless a user is actively recruiting our members to those other sites, which has happened in the past. However, we are very clear that the whole woman work is the antithesis of the conventional stuff out there that does not work and has never worked for prolapse.

Christine

Thanks, Louise, for trying to help me understand.
Dr., I think, was telling me that surgery was an option but that the wall between vagina and rectum was very thin - he had me feel inside the vagina while he had his finger in my rectum pushing into the vagina. I thought he said that due to the thinness the rectocele-repair surgery could cause other problems, like fecal matter and gas leaking into the vagina. I very well could've misunderstood but that's the way I interpreted what he said. Not that it would just happen, but due to the surgery to repair rectocele. He, too, acted like the Premarin would help prepare the tissue for surgery. I do NOT want to have surgery. That's how I found this website - looking for alternate treatment for rectocele relief.
The hysterectomy surgeon has passed away and his records seem to have been lost. Present ob-gyn doc is supposed to be contacting the hospital to see if they have records. I remember being told that the bladder was uplifted or something at the time of the hyst. and the hyst was done because of prolapsed uterus.
I had two c-sections, the first one after 24 hours of labor, the second one planned. That's been 45 years now. No problems 'til 1992 hyst. No problems since 1992 until a couple of weeks ago. And as I said, no pain, nor elimination issues, just the uncomfortable bulge when on my feet too long.
Thanks again, Lari

OK, that makes more sense now. It is so easy to assume the worst. Sad that your hysterectomy records are so hard to find. Hope the doctor succeeds in finding them. I do hope you don't have to resort to surgery. The risks are indeed worrying.

Louise

Hi Louise, You said: "....there are other alternatives that will stimulate the growth of vaginal epithelium, which might make your vaginal lining more resilient, and provide the lubrication ..."
What are the "other alternatives" to Premarin.

Thanks!

Hi Lari

There is a product called Replens, which we have discussed quite extensively. Just put it in the Search box to find our discussions where it was mentioned.

It is a vaginal moisturiser, rather than a lubricant. It does stimulate extra growth in the epithelial cells of the vagina. I am happy with the research I have read on it. I have tried it, but found that the applicator we get in the Australian version is very wasteful, and it is not a cheap product. You have to insert it in the vagina about every four days, I think. I could never remember which day I used it last. I didn't use it for long enough to form an opinion on it.

Wholewoman used to make Bliss Balm, which was based on coconut oil with a little beeswax in an Ayurvedic recipe. It was a lovely product but Wholewoman found it too expensive to manufacture, so sadly it is no more. It was a lubricant, good for sex and for every day use. Very slippery and very persistent because of its oily base. The coconut oil melts on contact with skin, so it was very easy to apply to fragile vulva or vagina. You could try just using coconut oil. There is a video in Christine's cottage about making red clover salve. You could use that method to make your own.

There is another personal lubricant called Sylk, which is made from kiwifruit. Has anyone used Sylk?

There are lots of lubricants out there for you to try. The advantage of a lubricant is that it is not expensive and it simply lets the surfaces of your vagina slide against each other more easily, so your organs can reposition themselves more easily if they get out of place. Also, you can use it when you need it.

Good luck with your investigations.

Louise

Hi I am new to this site, I have my WW books and DVD, since 2 months ago, I have been diagnosed with 2nd degree sigmoidocele, so I am really lost, with this situation, cause I know my whole pelvic floor is weakened, I dropped too much weight, since last year due to severe IBS problems, all my muscles feel so soft, it gives me the chill.
My PT told me that for sigmoidocele, there is no exercises to fix it. But can I still do exercises for the whole pelvic floor without affecting the the degree of the sigmoidocele??? Please help anybody , need directions Urgent!!
And I am from the island of Aruba, in the Caribbean, 37 years.

I am assuming, then, you do not have your uterus?

No, I still get my uterus, but always when I have to go to the defecate, I feel a bulge in my rectum or vagina, it is a disgusting feeling.
So I think it has to be due to the sigmoidocele.

Hi All

This is a whole new topic. Let's discuss it in its own topic (which I have started), and leave Colorburst's topic to follow its own direction.

Just click on Recent Posts in the lefthand frame and look for it.

Louise :-)

I too have a rectocele and had corrective surgery in 2007 that never worked. I would like to treat this naturally but am so confused about kegels also. I spent a significant amount of money on kegel material and wonder if I should incorprate it.

Do any of you have bladder symptoms with your rectoceles?

Hi 51anddiscovering

Just wondering whether or not you have your uterus? Wholewoman work is based on having a uterus with all its associated ligaments and other bits and pieces. If you don't have your uterus you might be able to get some benefit.

Louise

I have a uti now and my rectocele has become worse since i lost about 40 pds and started menopause...it just has me sick, literally.
I was on keflex which took away what I thought was a kidney infection, only to bring on a uti. I went to the doc today hoping for some answers and to soon be fit soon with a pessary hoping it will help all this. I also work as a nurse aid, try to watch my lifting like someone else has posted on here. I am so confused on all this, consumes all my time researching, wondering whether to try this or that or do this or that.
I am open for any suggestions, I have a grade 3 rectocele and grade 1 cystocle las I was examined. Have a blessed day.