Postpartum mums - advice on rectocele and cystocele please!

Hi Miss Diagnosed, I have all of Christine's books and I was going to have surgery for a rectocele but I was so scared I didn't turn up for my surgery after reading Christine's web pages on prolapse. I'm in Australia but if you would like more information on prolapse, I read as much as I can about it, you can go to www.pelvicfloorfirst.com.au [MODERATOR'S NOTE, this is NOT a Whole Woman site and does not follow Christine's teachings] and you can ask questions on there and read some more about prolapse. I won't listen when I'm asked to have surgery as I'm okay with my own body now. I have had this prolapse since I was 56 and I'm 67 now. I hope this helps some more.

I went to that site you put on, Cleo, and read some of the information. That site suggests a pelvic floor that all our organs are being supported by. This is not the same concept that Christine has. Christines haa our organs supported in the lower belly with intrabdominal pressure and a strong lumbar curvature.
Just don't want newcomers to go to that site and think it is supported by the whole woman philosophy, because I am not seeing that.
There is no amount of strengthening a pelvic floor that is going to help with prolapse; whole woman posture does that.

To miss diagnosed: what you describe is not unusual for a rectocele. Once you start doing the whole woman work, will will find yourself feeling better over time. But, don't feel the need to rush into things; this is a process that does take time, and along with that your body needs to heal after having your baby which, by itself can take up to two years.
For now, read your materials, do the the work gently, and enjoy that new little baby of yours.

Miss diagnosed, I have read your post particularly paragraph two is exactly what I have with the on off urges and incomplete evacuation feeling all day every day. I'm not sure if that is associated with ibs or a rectocele or a prolapse, but I have suffered with that for years thinking I needed to empty my bowel and then not being able to. I got a pessary fitted last week and got told by gyn that my uterus and bladder were sagging down and pulling on my rectum so that was a real eye opener as didn't think something like that could happen if organs were prolapsing as he said I don't have a rectocele.
Anyway I have found immense relief so far from the pessary as I now have distinguished what is a bearing down feeling coming from sagging and what is a call to empty my bowels, so I have found the bearing down feeling is not as bad as it was so fingers crossed for this to get better as that drove me cuckoo! spending so much time in bathroom trying to move the immovable. I have also practiced Christine's idea of raising up off the toilet to empty my bowel properly in the morning, so that is also a great help to let me know my bowel is empty, and not be running back and forth everytime I feel this pressure feeling that felt so much like I needed to really go but couldn't because it was all caused by sagging. I am also trying the posture a lot now too so hopefully things will get better, but it took so long for me to find out the difference between a genuine need to go to bathroom and sagging/pressure feeling, so the pessary helped a great deal with that. It may not work out that good for lots of people to have a pessary, but I'm taking it day by day for now. Thank you for posting and I sure hope you get some help, and just wanted to let you know what helped me. Take care.

I also had that sagging feeling in my rectum when I first started this work, and also had a hard time having bowel movements. I did initially splint when having a bowel movement, because of a little pouching of the rectum into the vaginal space. I came here with a severely prolapses uterus, slightly prolapsed bladder, and there was that pulling down feeling.
Christine describes these dynamics very well in her book. And, dietary changes are a must along with good toilet habits, lifting off the seat, etc.
I also considered a pessary at first, but so glad I didn't go that route. I have heard of too many complications with using those, and from what I have read, they are not good for rectocele anyway.
Being patient with this work is what I had to learn the most, and just to keep doing it.
I am in a really good place with my prolapse now, so it does take time ladies! No quick fixes here, but the results are so beneficial for your whole body.

Hi all, just wanted to jump in quick here, to agree with AG and to let Miss Diagnosed know that pessaries for a post-partum rectocele are not a good suggestion at all! A pessary can aggravate a rectocele and make it worse. And Cleo, the website link you posted talks about all the things that Christine has taught us are wrong with conventional views of female pelvic anatomy. Cleo I think you would probably be doing better with your rectocele if you were following Christine's work. You have been here a long time and I thought that you were. But that's another discussion. - Surviving

No Aging Gracefully I did not have to splint to have a bowel movement, what seemed to always be my issue was that I could not make out the difference between a real call to empty my bowel and the sensation or bearing down from the sagging. I do not have a rectocele. I tried splinting before just to see if it would help me get out what I thought was stool stuck behind something and still nothing came out because I know now there was none to come out as I was dealing with pressure from sagging. It's hard for me to make out the difference between that and a call to stool and THAT was my MAIN problem as I was always going to the toilet and straining, so that has all stopped since I got the pessary. It has given me a new lease of life for now.

Hi Miss Diagnosed and welcome. It sounds to me like you are off to a good start. There is no way to know how things will end up when you are farther down the path of PP healing, because it takes a couple of years. I was quite bulgy after both of my births, but I didn't think much about that (given that I had just passed very large babes) and that subsided on its own after awhile, only to return with a vengeance after menopause. You have a unique opportunity to set yourself on the right path to avoid this problem later on.

I would like to talk about your question 2. While it is important to grab whatever you can get in the way of quality rest and sleep, you really aren't helping your prolapse by remaining horizontal. It's the combination of correct posture, belly-breathing and gravity that move the organs forward. You need lots of good quality activity, just don't overdo. Christine says that the modern epidemic of PP prolapse has a lot to do with the modern practice of PP women lying around on beds and couches and soft chairs, with a collapsed spine, instead of moving around and letting gravity do its work.

As for your third question, just realize that you cannot always stay in perfect posture, and this isn't the end of the world. Do the best you can to keep lumbar curvature, and get help when possible, but don't stress out over it. And enjoy that little one while you can! - Surviving

Yes I do understand what you are talking about Charlene. Straining was also one of my problems with all this, and having constipation didn't help matters. Another issue I had was that my uterus was retroverted and resting right on my rectum, making it very difficult to evacuate. After reading christines work, I then knew why I was having so many problems with straining and bowel movements.
Doing this work has pulled my uterus off my rectum and unkinked everything else, so now I do have easy bowel movements after many many years of not knowing when or if I could go. This work did that for me.

Hi Miss Diagnosed (love the name). I'm 8 weeks post partum and still unsure what my prolapse is exactly (rectocele/a.n.other) as I'm too chicken to have a proper look. Just to say I have seen big improvements in my BM issues in a couple of weeks (incomplete emptying and anal protrusion after BM), by drinking a lot more water than I would usually. I realise it's an obvious solution, so apologies for that, but you mention you're not accustomed to the BM issue so perhaps a well-meaning GP hasn't already told you! If you're breastfeeding of course it's even more important.

I'm also adopting the WW potty posture - see recent LoPo thread - which really really helps, as do Christine's pelvic rocks. I recommend to try staying relaxed about that incomplete emptying feeling, and trust you'll get it sorted. You will! I know that, for me, fretting about it makes me less likely to 'resolve matters'...

Very interested to see what answers you get for questions 2 and 3 as I've had the same concerns; thanks for posting!

Surviving, I was really interested to read that point in Christine's book. I'd been blaming myself for the prolapse for not taking my mum's advice to stay in bed for 2 weeks after birth, and hoiking my kids about town. Of course, I wasn't in proper posture then so wouldn't have been exactly helping matters either, but it's good to be able to counter one of the little nagging voices in my head...!

Yes and I think we will probably hear from SafelyHeld on that point, as well. She's a believer after her most recent PP experience. - Surviving

Take a deep breath and feel assured you are on the right path! This work is like body-building results come with time and effort. A word on perspective: when I first told my husband about having a cystocele after my first birth six years ago (me hysterical, sobbing), he blinked and said, well whew. It's not cancer! I did not consider that helpful at the time, but you know what? He was absolutely right. This is livable, reversible, and will not take you away from your family -- unless you let it mentally! So weep a little, you have that right, but then pull up proudly into WW posture like a queen. Droopy thoughts equal a droopy crotch, LOL. For real!

Only a few minutes to spare .... But to attempt to address your questions....

1. Search for the member alemama and then track her posts. Read. Them. All. I think you will be inspired by this longtime member who came here PP with a rectocele.

2. Well, as mentioned, the real healing occurs while upright. Listen to your body and it's need for rest, but don't be afraid to be active. Once you get your DVDs you will have good additions to your walks. I am 6 weeks PP with #3, and I walk a mile a day and am just generally up and active with laundry, housework, and getting my older two ready and to various schools/lessons. I usually take a lie-down in the afternoon, and my other "down time" is spent sitting on the floor. I will be adding the second wheel yoga shortly.

3. Is the buggy essential? If yes, just get it up the stairs in the most comfortable way you can find, and don't sweat that 2 or less minutes in a bad position. I am of the opinion that our bodies are made to occasionally weather awkward positions and will recover. Just spend a little extra time doing firebreathing, nauli, or pelvic rocks. If not essential, can you wear your baby instead? Don't be afraid of weight -- when in posture it is beneficial! Ever seen third world women carry pots of water on their heads? No hands! (Check YouTube). They are in lovely posture! Try putting the laundry basket on your head -- you can't help but be in a beautiful WW posture with your vagina in a very closed, protected position.

Best wishes! You're going to be fine.

OK, very good point but let's not scare the newbie! Alemama has been posting for over 8 years and by rough count there are approximately 1,200 discussion threads on this forum that contain her words of wisdom. And most of them have multiple comments by her. So, maybe 6,000 posts minimum? Miss D, you do not have to read them all, there will not be a test! - Surviving

Thought I would come in just with my thoughts, after baby one I found bladder and bowel prolapse, very low cervix. I have been doing the whole woman work since. I think if I honest and look back I had symptoms of both my issues before babies. I would go to the toilet and maybe later just go again, never really thought about hard stools. Obviously I then got that feeling of not being able to empty after my first baby. Things do get better, I don't get loads of time to do exercise and I would just say be careful not to do to much as I am the type of person who got obsessed with results and fast, it doesn't happen but you feel so much better to be aware of your posture and notice how bad it was! I don't have many issues with bowel prolapse. Some constipation as I am breast feeding baby two (fine pregnancy with my issues!) just forget to drink enough and concentrate on diet. Just stop slouching and start walking in posture, that's a big step. Enjoy baby, think it won't spoil my parenthood and smile. It gets better, you lose the fear, you have good and bad days but you learn to handle them. I also felt so so sad and you are hormonal don't forget, I cried a lot. I would do gentle exercise but not to much just posture and walking. Buggy I would try to think of the best way, see how it feels what your body is saying. I do as much as I can but lift close to my body. May put my shoulders under the bar anything to not really pull my stomach and try to keep posture. Hope your ok and think really positive you can get the better of it and please enjoy your baby

Hi Miss Diagnosed,

Sorry to hear of your challenges. I wanted to say hi as I am also a Mum (2 years postpartum) with my second child. I got mild prolapse at 3 months with my second (but signs were there before my first pregnancy I now know). I didn't search the web as met such nice people in the normal system so didn't find this work till 6 months ago when my uterus fell down one day and a cyctocele developed and my rectocele bulge came down permanently. I will always regret not finding this work at the beginning but that is my journey. I do wish I could have my cake and eat it too if you like, so have never felt sorry I had the prolapse just that it went from being very minor to more serious. I was sucked in by nice people who were not like the normal doctors I steer clear of but still offered me nothing of value - except no ab work. Meanwhile I maintained my flat abs and tucked under my bum to minimise my curves.

Well I want to say to you it will all go away and back to normal but of course I don't know. Our bodies are all different and mine has not gone back, although this work has made it managable and I continue to learn. I still struggle with the posture but keep practicing. I have a lot of years of tucking to undo. I will book a consult with Christine soon to confirm I have things right. I don't get the feeling of incomplete evacuation you do but I learn towards constipation so that is probably why. I do get problems with an urge to pee and that can be at night at times and I won't lie, it is frustrating and affects my sleep but it helps to know why (bladder pulling away from my pubic bone).

Activity wise I walk and aim to do more of the yoga tapes and 1st aid for prolapse which I have. Just getting the posture right seems enough and it is a strong position for the body so I have strong muscles.

You wanted honesty so I will say that prolapse is hard for me especially with little kids. This work is a gift though and nice to know my body this way. I am still learning how to move and try to be in posture 100% of the time but that does make it feel strange when I am with people at sitting upright in chairs while they relax back. It can be hard to not have my back to people. I will relax with this in time but that is what I choose right now.

Re the pram. I found lifting the pram on steps hard but I try to emphasise the posture and bend over at the waist so that things are forward when I pull it. I find sitting is great for me and as I am now busy working from home again I find things have moved up a lot after periods sitting and pulling up and often forward. This is hard with little ones I know.

Do you lie flat with no pillow at night? It helped me a lot to lose the pillow from my head and pop it between my knees instead. I think it's ok to rest like this in the day. I find it helps me to be on my back with no pillow and breathe into my belly. My bulge goes up a bit. If you use a pillow it's won't help.

All the best and keep up the great work.

Just thought Your post is a so well written, it is so hard I have two children under 3 as well and hard not to feel why me, why couldn't I get past the baby stage but it does get better with time. You have reminded me that my bladder prolapse is the worse and at the moment I cannot go more than 6 hours without needing a wee at night and it does disturb me too, though normally the babies do that for me but I have learnt to ignore that symptom but I wonder why that's got worse for me and hopefully it will improve. I also have got rid of all pillows and lie flat with something between my knees. I also have regrets about my first birth and second slightly but I think you really have to try and put that to one side, pretty sure I had a lot of these symptoms before having a baby especially feeling like I needed to wee more after going to the toilet but I had no idea about prolapse, never even heard it mentioned so think we need to just move on as best we can and think positive. We've improved in our minds and the body I am sure will follow. Take care

Thanks Lifegoeson04. I still don't know why prolapse is not talked about more and explained so we know what it feels like. Seems so backwards. I can't help looking at people and wondering where their bits are. I wish I had given birth on my hands and knees but was so tired that I was on my back. I knew it would be harder but liked the rest but then I didn't know anything about what I knew now. I just thought well I have good kegals and strong abs. It would have been why I hid my bump so well and had both kids being a bit posterior.

Goodness there is a long way to go with getting back to how women should be even for most 'natural' type midwives and people.

My kids are 4 and 2 so it's a bit easier, but go you with doing this with both under 3 years.

Take care. I am off to get my hair cut for the first time since I found WW site. I am going to decline to lie back in the chair and have my hair washed. Just don't think I can enjoy contorting my body for my neck to fit their basins, especially as today is an extra bulgy day.

Yes you are right. Pelvic floor exercises don't work for me. I put in this site for Miss Diagnosed so she can read some more on prolapse. The doctors still want to operate on me. I am sick of hearing, Do Pelvic Exercises, too. We must read about prolapse and listen to some advice and LEAVE The rest if we think it's misinformation. We all know our own bodies so listen to them.

That whole site looks like misinformation to me. Better to read the whole woman site for the best techniques to help with prolapse symptoms. And, I think its better not to confuse our newcomers with links to other sites that have the pelvic support system all wrong. It really is all here for those who want the correct information.

Cleo, you have said that you follow Christine's suggestions, but I'm not sure you understand what Whole Woman posture is. And there are other tools, such as firebreathing which is something most of us do every day. How often do you firebreathe? And why go to a doctor who just wants to do surgery? Find someone else to go to, if you need to go to someone. You've been here a long time and we love you, but your posts seem to be miles away from the work that we are doing here. - Surviving

Do you mind me asking what you think caused your prolapse to worsen? This is my fear when I'm necessarily lifting the pushchair about, or having to make a sudden sprint after the toddler.

HI FiveMinutesPeace in answer to your question above, everything came down further the morning after I lay on the floor and did some stretching but I was bending at the waist and still in the wrong posture and carrying my daughter a lot for the year prior after I was first diagnosed (stage 1 rectocele only). It was not from ab exercises or kegals or running or anything as I stopped all that (almost all the kegals as I hated them anyway).

I will never know exactly why it happened but I suspect my uterus fell down and then that lead to a cystocele. That was not there at first but I used a sea sponge for a month when everything first came down (I had them from my pelvic physio). I also never did an exam until after things all came down and I found this work. I stopped the sponges after a month as I felt them pulling things down and found this site at that time from a link on the sea sponge site (go figure).

I also used to get bad bloating if I ate much grain or other things that I don't digest well and that made things a lot worse. I had constipation since my first pregnancy too and that didn't help. Straining was when I first noticed a problem. I am quite strict managing all of this now.

Sorry FiveMinutesPeace off on a tangent. This WW work is the best bet for nothing getting worse and if things are mild then maybe considerably reversing the problem.

I try to not get worried or annoyed when my bulge is down quite far for my rectocele all day. My cele does not bother me so for that I am grateful. I will have a consult with Christine soon to check my posture as I am working hard but there is so much to change and I try to be guided by my symptoms but I think that is not correct when I things may just be down some days eventhough I am doing things in correct WW posture.

Thank you so much for sharing that. There's such a lot to weigh up, isn't there? I also find it hard being guided by symptoms as - among other things - it requires such a single-minded focus on the prolapse, when there's so much else to do! But you're right that it isn't helpful to let your mood be affected by how 'up' or 'down' things are… I still struggle with that tbh. The mental part of this is so important, and just to find a community of women who have wrapped this positively into their lives has made a huge difference for me.

I'm carrying my son a lot too; I'm sad that the prolapse has tainted it with worry. On the other hand, it's not good for anybody to carry heavy weights without giving thought to how it's done, so perhaps the worry will have beneficial effects for me above and beyond the prolapse situation. Not sure if that makes sense!

FiveMinutesPeace, I do struggle with this mentally but often it is the not knowing or the frustration and uncertainty of whether I have things right. I do the posture all do everyday but it's only been 9 months since I found this site so I have a long way to go to make it natural. I also have to put more time into the DVD's and am just starting down that road.

Re your son, I would pick up and carry your son and just do your best on the posture if you feel the need to do that, then listen to your heart as they so benefit from it.

My daughter is just over two and the other is four. I still pick her up but not as much now she is older and heavier. I struggle the most when she is having a tantrum and fighting me. The supermarket is a good example.

Yes, my daughter (toddler) has certainly twigged that my being unwilling to carry her has brought freedoms. Sleep times and getting her up the stairs spring to mind…!

Your comment about how they benefit from the closeness of carrying has given me pause for thought, thanks.

Regarding your first point-
I have similar issues postpartum. Im not sure that they last all the way till 13 weeks pp but its dreadful while it lasts. This position below, as described by Christine, helps me so much. It seems as though our insides just need a bit of help to get back into place postpartum, u know?

"I would suggest that you get down on forearms and knees - rest your forehead on your hands - and rock gently side to side for several minutes three times a day. Treat this as a kind of meditation - slowing down and really relaxing. The point of the exercise is to reposition the bowels so the sigmoid is better oriented. A few WW exercises (pelvic rocks, circles, firebreathing) could only help. When you stand up, try to stay in WW posture."

" While rectocele and sigmoid prolapse are considered different conditions, they certainly have a similar cause - the untoward forces of intraabdominal pressure. Depending on the alignment of the body, internal pressures will increase at different points along the way, forcing the gut into pathologic positions. Rectocele occurs when the low, forward-curve of the front rectal wall increases - eventually forming a vaginal pocket that traps stool."

From: http://wholewoman.com/forum/node/6192

Here's a photo to help: https://wholewoman.com/blogpix/CAKonfloor.jpg

Yes I had one more pregnancy and birth after starting wholewoman work and am pregnant now. My symptoms in general were heaviness and achy-ness in my pelvis, a kind of tugging in my lower belly, and umm.. a disconcerting feeling of too much air down there. There was a world of difference btwn my pp symptoms after my last birth and the birth before that (when I hadn't yet started ww). And the only thing I did differently was to pull up into posture directly after birth instead of leaning back in a pile of pillows as the helpless postpartum mama. I think after doing wholewoman for a while and understanding how the female body truly works, u lose all of that initial fear and realize anything is possible. When u overdo it for whatever reason, u know the things you have to do to get back to where u were. one of the old members here alemama has written a few times that parous women are all on the prolapse spectrum somewhere. Our pelvic organs are simply mobile to be able to do their job, that's all. our role is to make sure they stay in their proper positions as much as possible. I find it very uplifting to think of it that way.

Regarding lying down and horizontal time - I do a lot of side lying breastfeeding for about a year pp. It's so comfortable and relaxing and it counters the long hours of standing in the kitchen, housework, running after the little ones etc. if you're working hard to stay in posture most of the time, lying down periodically throughout the day can be very healing imo.

Hi SafelyHeld,
You are listening to your body & working with what it tells you to work on at this time. This is the wonderful intuition which WW enables us to connect & link our consciousness, body & soul!
Thankyou for updating your journey -a wonderful encouragement to others in the WW journey...
Aussie Soul Sister