Confused over kegels

i got a little confused by one of Christine's feeds when it said you could hold the muscles if you wanted to. However I can tell you that if your doing Physio classes they will be standard Kegals, they made me feel a lot worse when I did them and I would stop ASAP. Someone with more knowledge will explain it better but Christine's alternative to Kegals is what I would get started on, do you have the first aid for prolapse dvd?

Ever confused has the first edition of the book (orange cover). The second edition doesn't say that, and is much more clear on posture principles in general. Ever confused, Christine has created a rather large body of work since you acquired that book; time to update your resource library! - Surviving

Christine's work has been evolving for over a decade. Let's not debate that process. She has written plenty about kegels and it is easily located by putting that search term on the Blog page. -- Surviving

somewhere there was a more recent thread that me and s60 commented on as I remember you asking Christine about contracting these muscles as you had never heard of it and she explained what she meant..maybe only surviving commented, can't remember if I did or just remember reading it, it's somewhere here. Will have a look when kids are asleep! :)

found it now it was bothering me! I've just copied the tool bar at the top not sure if that's what you do!!
https://wholewoman.com/forum/node/6321
Explains better than I can

Yes, she is basically saying, if you must kegel, kegel in posture. This is basically for women who refuse to give up kegeling. Personally, my own experience and Christine's explanations are all the encouragement I needed to stop completely. I get tired of these kegel threads but people keep insisting on having them. - Surviving

all I can say is they make you worse, in my personal experience and everyone around you I.e Physio therapists all swear by them while telling you they have a prolapse! Just stop, start the whole woman posture and dvds. If your feeling worse it's probably because of Kegals. Sorry if you've read that from an old book but have you being practising the posture as well?

On my first visit to PT, she told me that kegals didn't work for her and that she did them and then had to get the surgery later….and then she hooked me up to the e-stem to begin my therapy doing….KEGALS!?!?!

And this is a person who gets paid to "advise" women on their prolapse?? - Surviving

With all due respect to CK, I have always felt the same away about calling pelvic rocks "new kegels". It's confusing and misleading to newbies, when we should really be banning that word from our vocabularies. - Surviving

Oftentimes, newbies come here and they want to start the kegel discussion all over again. Understandable, considering all the kegeling that women are told to do, out there in gyno/PT land. We need to direct them to Christine's articles on the subject (easy to find by going to the Blog tab and putting kegel in the search box). I feel that should be the end of the discussion. To quote Lanny's intro page for the Forum, we are not here to debate the work. We are here to help women who are helping themselves to do this work. Anyone who reads these articles, and then wants to keep kegeling, be my guest but don't waste our time. - Surviving

Hey ever,
Just try this yourself: put a finger or two into your vagina and then perform a kegel. Think about how it feels, what is it doing to your vaginal walls? To your prolapse? Now, with your finger still inside, pull up into exaggerated wholewoman posture - as much as possible anyway! where is your prolapse? What has helped your prolapse to move back more (even ever so slightly), the kegel or the posture?

The first edition of Christine's book was written 12 years ago. In the 12 years since then, her work has been evolving and she has been working, studying and writing about every aspect of this topic and has produced an enormous body of work that you are choosing to ignore. There is a reason why writers come out with revised editions of books that they write. They learn more about a topic or they develop a better way to explain something or they just find out new information. If you are unable to believe that doctors are useless when it comes to prolapse, I don't know what else we can do to convince you. I can only once again quote the forum intro page: This forum is not a debating society for Christine's work. If you want to kegel I really don't care. Honest I don't. I'm just sick of posting links to articles that are easily found on this site. Your mind is stuck in that old orange book. Most of the members who post on this site don't have that book and don't even know what you're talking about. Sorry to be harsh but enough is enough. - Surviving

I am sorry that your prolapse has become more of a problem for you recently. I too am in the UK and although the doctors do their best they are limited by their training and experience. I was offered an op by a consultant who was kindly but had a very weary face. The last thing I would have is an op and now I have learnt so much from Christines new book and dvd,first aid for prolapse, I understand that the poor consultant knew an op would only cause more problems. I feel sorry for him . Did you know that our doctors are not even taught about nutrition,amazing that! I have found that walking in posture together with the exercises gave me my life back. I now manage to lift things if I have to as long as I concentrate to keep posture correct and also relax the tummy muscles. It is amazing how difficult it is to keep lower muscles relaxed after about fifty years of sucking them in!! This site is so helpful with advice from those who really understand. It is worth reading here regularly as it is always updating and seeking to help us all in ever more successful ways. There is a wonderful teacher in the UK,trained by Christine and I found her help and support invaluable.Her details are easily found on this site. Good luck !

Over the years I have tried to perform the Kegel exercise. Each time it felt extremely uncomfortable. The answer for this came to me via Christine's book in that it noted that prolapse is worsened with Kegel exercises. The medical community always jumps on the bandwagon of popular thought. Additionally, physician do not ask women if Kegel's help; and women are used to doing what they are told an not to resist. Women need to be emboldened and speak out against deleterious medical advice and practices.

The Whole woman site was set up first, and the forum was only created afterwards, so that people could ask questions about Christine's work, after they read the site and are all ready familiar with the work.
The problem is that more and more people are coming to the forum first without even looking at the site itself. And, some just want people on the forum to direct them to everything or give them all the answers without reading it for themselves first.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions about the work, but to question the work itself falls into the debating category. Read the work thoroughly, and then decide for yourself if this is the route to go for you personally. If you really want to question Christine's ideas, give her a call. I am sure she would be happy to discuss it with you.

I apologize if you thought I was being rude. I do get a short fuse when kegels come up, because life is too short to keep discussing those over and over (well, MY life is too short, ha!). But it's clear that you haven't been keeping up too well with the last decade of Christine's work. I'll say again what I said in my first post above.....time to update yourself on Whole Woman. - Surviving

Hi Ever confused,

The work hasn’t changed much over the years, although WW exercises have seen continuous improvement in moving the organs forward against the lower belly. What has changed is my ability to articulate these concepts.

For instance, when I do a second position plie, with my tailbone raised and my abdominal wall pulled up and relaxed, I sense the tightening of my pelvic wall. It is not a contraction, as in closing the vagina like a round drawstring (I would have to drop my tailbone to do that), but rather a side-to-side closure like a pair of elevator doors. The pelvic wall is “tensing”, not shortening. The only word I had for this in 2003 was “contracting”.

The primary function of our front and back walls is to manage intraabdominal pressure. The abdominal wall is already closed, so all we need to do is relax the abs so they can assume their full range of motion, allowing the organs to be constantly pinned forward. Unlike the abdominal wall, the back wall has three openings that must stay closed when we are up and about or risk prolapse and incontinence. These openings are forced closed by the self-locking mechanism of the pelvis when in WW posture. It is not a round, sphincter closure, but a side-to-side closure. Take a handkerchief and pull opposite corners to understand how the structure comes together in the midline.

The secondary function of the pelvic wall is to help things go out. It is completely unadapted to helping things stay in, except in its ability to stay closed side-to-side so internal pressures can pin the organs forward instead of blowing them backward toward the outlet.

To address your question about how can all the doctors be wrong, gynecologists simply do not see the female body in a holistic way. Their perspective, written about and illustrated in 150 years of medical literature, sees the pelvic wall as a soft-tissue hammock hanging underneath the torso. The pubic bones are consistently represented as forming a short wall at the front of the body. The vagina is the lowest point in the “floor” with the uterus perched directly above, waiting to fall down the hole in the floor. This perspective causes surgeons and women alike to try to make the hole smaller, tighter and stronger. It is simply the wrong concept. The organs are positioned at the front of the body and the outlet is at the back.

We are the only ones I know of in the entire world who have re-described the anatomy of the female pelvis to represent these self-evident truths. These insights and illustrations did not come all at once, but were drawn and re-drawn over several years. I can only be thankful that we were on the right track from the beginning.

Some women are very attached to the idea of kegeling, just like they are attached to chronically holding in the abdominal wall. It seems like heresy to suggest that the human abdominal wall should be held out, not in. But this is the WW perspective, which is stabilizing and reversing prolapse symptoms in hundreds of thousands of women worldwide. We have discovered and formalized anatomic truths over the years that will not change with time or fashion. It is simply how the human female pelvic organ support system works.

Christine

That article was written in a moment of inspiration, hoping to completely change the concept of how to stabilize and reverse prolapse. The name for the exercise was satisfying to me because Dr. Kegel was oh-so-very-misinformed.

It reality, these are simply pelvic rocks with WW breathing. When we stand up and hinge at the hips, we call the exercise WW firebreathing. I don't care what we call them, but the important thing is that we do them correctly with the breath, breathing in when the tailbone is raised, and breathing out when the tailbone is tucked.

It is not an exaggeration to say that the rest of the world is doing these sorts of exercises wrong. Thanks to male-yoga exercises that try to squeeze the hole-at-the-bottom closed, the "smaller, tighter" concept has saturated female society all the more. Check out this young yogini teaching "perineum breathing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmF6AKI6UuI

She doesn't understand the true nature of female anatomy and therefore, unbeknownst to her, she is helping to set women up for prolapse and incontinence. This is what we are up against and why we get a little edgy when people want to argue the merits of kegels.

Christine

Umm, Wow! That video scared me. I even tried it out and found it an impossible task. Guess my body has really gotten into full on deep belly breathing. I could even feel it pulling on my lower belly, like it was trying to dump the contents into my vagina!
I also feel sorry for her, because the time will come when she herself will most likely end up with prolapse and won't even know how it happened to her....

i wasn't trying to be patronising when I copied the link for you to read what Christine had said, it confused me and I found that link really helpful to understand why. I think it's completely fair enough to question Kegals as I didn't realise there was a first book, i only have dvds which I love! I was trying to be helpful as I know searching can be hard, thankfully Christine has come here to explain properly. In the UK I really struggled with professionals on prolapse and most people I know do the Kegals and then have surgery..to me if Kegals work so well while do we keep having to have surgery. But yes always questions to be asked and you can only see what works for you.

sometimes written words come across a lot differently I think than how we mean it. Surviving has much more experience with answering these questions. I think Christine means she never meant contracting just the pelvic floor muscles but more closing together through the work. But like I say I've never read the first book. I just remember doing Kegals loads before my prolapse because they said it would heal my episiotomy and I kept saying to my mum I really fee worse after doing these exercises but maybe it takes time and it didn't take long before I prolapsed, therefore for me they made me feel a lot worse.

I Dear Ever confused and others,

I just knew that I never wanted surgery and waited 17yrs + to find WW.

"Kegels" just gave me constant urinary urgency, so I stopped doing them and the urgency went away....

Christine's approach is unique and it is a paradigm shift from commonly held beliefs.

Do some reading as suggested, make up your own mind, & stand alone in your human circle if necessary, and be an example.
That is what I have been doing for nearly 3 years.

The benefits of WW are so holistic and the sooner you begin the sooner you will have the benefit of the hindsight we have...

Then if you wish, the best way to start is with the posture and belly breathing instead of chest breathing.

Connect with your body - it will tell you the next steps to take on this journey..

Christine has her years of research there for anyone to read... one of her many gifts to complete strangers across the world.

As for other internet mediums - I believe this site is comprehensive and complete.

Wishing you all the best,
Aussie Soul Sister

Christine herself came onto this forum to explain to you that she did NOT mean kegels when she wrote in 2003 about "contracting" the pelvic floor. And yet, here you are again asking why she changed her opinion about kegels. She didn't. Please re-read her post. Thanks - Surviving

Dear SafelyHeld,
When in posture we rock forward on the toilet seat, taking our weight off it,just touching with our thighs, to increase pressure if needed to push a little to get out a bowel movement, the organs are protected in the lower belly.From what I read and hopefully remember correctly the sphincter opens and our tail bone lifts. I think of a cow lifting its tail - an extension of its spine... ;)
Tipping forward also helps empty the bladder completely helping prevent urinary infections from residue urine in the bottom of the bladder.
In WWP the pelvic organs are placed in the lower belly the vagina, urethra and bowel kink like hoses to keep any intra - abdominal pressure from pushing them back and down.
The vagina is a closed airless space in WWP - that is why so many women are relieved of vaginal "wind", when in posture.

Aussie Soul Sister

I'd say do whatever you feel is helping you get the BM out without straining. I myself do a certain amount of squirming and changing position when I get to that point (if it's one of those days when things just don't slide out on their own). Just don't strain. - Surviving

If we can look beyond becoming offended by any personality, advice, adviser, or any teacher we have ever had, particularly volunteers, we can learn so much.
That is what I tell my children.

I could have been offended many times by discussions here and have been at times.
If I had walked away I would not have come so far in the WW journey. This is all part of getting along with others.

Not easy - I know but the PEARLS OF WISDOM here, however worded are PRICELESS.

Like others here, I spend hours writing and editing my posts to be as accurate as possible, & also, so as not to offend - if I am to stay here as a volunteer - (I read every post & average writing posts at minimum once a week) , maybe I will have to become more to the point.
Christine has given me my life back and SO MUCH MORE!

Look for the pearls of wisdom...
Much love,
Aussie Soul Sister

PS - It sometimes takes reading answers more that once to understand what is being said.

I think it's just the natural mechanics of the body. When things need to open up to let things out, they just do that. Certain muscles and natural movements of the body all work together to keep everything running smoothly. We must remember that this posture is the natural one we are always meant to have. It wouldn't keep things locked off and not able to come out as needed.
Ideally, the sphincter opens and closes as needed as the natural peristalsis moves the poo through.

Oh so well said, Soul Sis my friend. As usual.

I plead guilty to a complete lack of patience when someone wants to start a new kegel discussion on this forum. There is simply nothing new under the sun to be said on that subject, and we should not be expected to debate this for the rest of our natural lives.

So next time, I'll leave it to those of you who have a better bedside manner, to chime in on those discussions. It's important to make women understand these concepts and I don't ever really mean to offend; but I know it comes out that way. - Surviving

Dear Surviving,
Don't ever stop being you - if we all did that including Christine's fire and tenacity - where would we all be now?

All I know is that doing the work opens our individual eyes to the possibilities of WW and piece by piece, the jig - saw puzzle falls into place.
Hindsight isn't something we can teach....we are telling of ours though to give hope...

You and Christine have made me more determined and focused.
Love you both so very much,

Aussie Soul Sister

In this thread, Christine was repeatedly challenged, even after she came on here herself to explain everything in detail. That isn't what this forum is about. Nor do we want to perpetuate potential confusion amongst other newbies who might come along and read this thread and wonder if they too have misconstrued something. So Ever Confused, I hope by now you have re-read what Christine wrote above and are ready to move on and move forward with the WW work. - Surviving

Ever confused, I don't like throwing people's words back at them, but here is what you said above:

"Thank you Christine for taking the trouble to write and explain thoroughly tho you don't say why you thought Kegel type exercises were good at the time of the 1st book, what changed etc but I accept the knowledge and experience evolves and am grateful for all your work."

So it did sound a bit like you had missed the point of her post. - Surviving

I have my own copy of the first edition, acquired from Amazon a couple of years ago. While there are many things in there I like, I have told members in the past that they need to update because the posture and general concepts are much better explained in the revision....which should not surprise anyone. But I would never have gone to Christine and demanded to know why she changed her wording on something. Once you get past your kegel dilemma and into the heart of this work, things will become more clear to you. - Surviving

Hi Everyone,

So much of my initial information came from the medical literature and I am sorry that Ever confused has found the early book a bothersome contradiction. I do instruct in the first edition to pull up the muscles of the pelvic floor while at the same time relaxing the abdominal muscles and tilting the pelvis forward. It would be some time later that I realized we don’t even have a pelvic floor!

Let’s get past this now, as I think the point has been made that the first edition of the book is woefully inadequate.

I just want to mention that I agree with Soul Sis about leaning forward when we need to increase pressure - even to squeeze out the last drops of pee. This is not exactly WW posture, but it actually is from the hips down. Think of a horse pooping out the back muscle wall. Our pelvis is in that position when we are leaning forward and slightly lifted up in a relaxed way.

Christine

I'm grateful for this discussion. Understanding how your thinking and terminology evolved helped to deepen my understanding of these concepts.