bending down one knee then the other?

I will try all of these tips. Thanks for clarifying about the workouts, NO ONE should copy my regiment! I also appreciate the weight more in the toes comment. The "naval in" was an industry practice that did me in but I haven't mentioned the other which is weight in the heals. This gave me buns of steel… Yay…. and POP…NOT WORTH THE TRADE OFF! I am having to get my weight out of my heals and more into my toes, or at least better distributed toward my toes. So much to learn or as someone said earlier… UNLEARN! Today is going to be sunny and gorgeous outside so I will be taking a break from my DVD's, do some fire breathing, pelvic rocks and hitting the beach for some walks (active rest :-), oh and a long massage, money much better spent than on ineffective and detrimental Kegal/estem therapy. Interestingly enough, this will be the first time in many years that my upper traps, lavatory scapula, lats, serratus ant. and subscapularus will NOT need to be released. For someone with cervical spine degeneration, this is a huge feat and thanks goes to this whole woman posture. She will also be surprised that I will not be complaining about neck pain for the first time EVER. She, my massage therapist and friend, will be shocked to see the transformation in my body. She will be focusing more on my hips to assist in "undoing" the "naval in" posture.
Thank you again ladies for guiding me along this journey. Today I woke up feeling almost normal which means no heaviness, no bulge… The vitamin D today will be great. I will be brainstorming as to how I can turn this into someway to help others who are also trying to figure this out. These little tweaks and tips from all of you are the things that are helping me to get it right! I wish this were Facebook so that I could "like" each of your comments and double "like" the ones that make me smile.
Namaste...

ActiveandLapsed, "AL" (your new nickname for me),
I'm frustrated with this POP thing for ALL OF US! I'm hoping that my posts will help in some way. I try to be careful about what I post because I know how confusing this can be for everyone.
I've been afraid to mention this here on the forum because I didn't want to cause any confusion for others who need different tweaks than me. I (and all of the women in my family) have what you'd call sway back which I am learning is more of a look because of my body frame and proportion and not a medical term. I'm realizing from WW that lordosis doesn't seem to occur without some other postural defect and the other defects for me were the bigger issue. I have a very small/petite torso and glutes that tend to be more developed and give me a "bubble butt" look. This exaggerates the sway back look. I've always tried to get some mass in my trunk (i.e. obliques, trans abdominals, resctus abdom., legs…) to counter that look which is not ideal for a small frame person in my industry, unless you are a freakish body builder. Remember that I am the stretch therapist/yogi/zenfitgirl who gets 80 % of my look from nutrition and natural sports and activity. Christine's comment for me to slightly tilt my tailbone up while walking to cause internal rotation and minimize the rubbing between my legs was the final tip that helped me to get it from the naval down. It was so ingrained in me (just a self-conscious thing) to minimize the bubble butt or sway back thing. After all, my butt still stuck out behind me plenty (because of my small frame AND athletic-level body fat) EVEN when I was tucking (my boyfriend calls it a melon butt). I fear that others will try to do this who don't need to AND without having the upper body (shoulders down, chest up, pulling up through the crown) mastered. I've seen clients taking weeks,months and years to get just the upper body portion, and some still just don't get it. While Christine and these ladies are genius about the internal female organs (and the function of the female body in every way), I've barely looked between my legs EVER. I still know that what they say just makes sense in ways that the doctors and fitness industry don't get. I would say to keep asking questions. I ask several a day. Even when I think that I've got it, my mind is eager to continue to improve.
I would actually put my hand on a new clients forehead and one at the base of their skull, ask them to slightly tuck their chin and then I gently lift their head (giving them some traction) with the crown of the head leading the lift. I then grab a piece of hair at the crown, lift it for them (while they move shoulder down/not back and bring chin in) to help them envision/feel the lengthening of the spine through the hair straight up to the sky. It helps them feel the posture. The problem is that when the serratus ant, lats, rhomboids, pectoral minor, levatur scapula are tight and unyielding, it's just hard for them to do it on their own. Massages and proper foam rolling can help but I hate to mention that here either for those that don't have a knowledgable neuromuscular therapist and/or mis-use the foam roller. My neuromuscular therapist was shocked to see that she needed NO release on many of those muscles yesterday, my hips needed plenty. I didn't realize how much range I'd lost in the last months (no wonder I prolapsed). She's intrigued by what I'm doing. She also works on many of my clients so we shared knowledge (we're a team with a lot of these clients) with each other of how we can help them specifically.
As for work, I've been feeling like I've needed to get out of the studio where I am for awhile. So, I will be telling my clients that in healing myself, I've learned and am learning some things that are pulling me in a slightly different direction. I will not be returning to the studio. Yesterday it occurred to me that my friend and neuromuscular mass. therapist is not happy where she is. I don't know where this journey will take me but I am making a list of people in my industry that may want someone with my experience in some form. In the meantime, I am just learning and healing. My boyfriend has been very supportive, I don't know why I thought any differently, but those dark early POP days sure are just awful.
My best advice is to keep asking questions specific to what you think that you are doing wrong. I hope that all of this helped and will be following your journey as well.
Namaste

SH, I just saw your post after I answered AL. I wanted to be careful because while I know some very important information on this POP stuff, I am still in the learning and unlearning daily. I guess if you see my post to AL, foam rolling, would be a suggestion. I hate to suggest it, though, without Christine's guidance. Perhaps a neuromuscular massage and an analysis. These therapists are very intuitive and can feel where you are most tight and thus need the most release. The DVD's address unlocking all of these muscles but I find foam rolling to be light-bulb moments for people to see where their tension is. Are you sure that you have the upper body mastered. I just feel like kyphosis, even slightly is the start. If that's good then foam rolling the piriformis, glutes, hamstrings and even the quadriceps and calves before your FAFP and yoga DVD's. I would have my clients take 5 minutes to foam roll, (gently) these muscle along with the rhomboids, lats, seratus for upper body before the workout. The Foam Roller can be your personal massage therapist. NEVER ROLL BONY AREAS LIKE THE THE SPINE, the BACK BELOW THE SHOULDER BLADES, LUMBAR SPINE, BEHIND THE KNEE, ACHILLES…! ONLY foam roll "MUSCLE" and do it VERY GENTLY! I am sure that there are demos on you tube to help. This gentle (over days and weeks) massage of the fascia was very effective for my clients. I just hate suggesting anything on here because I watch my clients like a hawk for this kind of stuff. I'm very hands-on and protective of people's bodies. It can really help if you do it carefully and gradually though. It paves the way pre-workout for increased blood flow and range of motion for overactive and thus tight muscles. I can't believe that I haven't pulled mine out since this POP. (It will be a great idea for my hips right now and especially before I do my Hips DVD which will be arriving today…YAY!) It can make a huge difference. Be sure to breath out and try to relax when you find a spot that takes your breath away. It should NEVER EVER EVER be painful. I actually feel my posture change into a more relaxed, natural posture, immediately after standing up from 5 minutes of foam rolling correctly. I urge caution on this though. Be very careful and use some guidance instruction for what NOT to do. I hadn't seen foam rolling mentioned here before so I've been holding back.

SH, My best explanation, is that when those upper body muscles are all pulling your shoulders and head forward, eventually, you'd fall on your face if they keep pulling you more and more forward which they do. Your body has to adjust against gravity which usually means a bending of the knees and tucking hips to redistribute the effects of gravity. When your body adjusts, the lumbo pelvic hip complex adjusts to keep you from falling forward, there are muscles that stay active all of the time to support this unnatural posture and thus become over-active, i.e. always working and never stretching or relaxing (hamstrings are the biggest one but many others are involved). I've had clients that hadn't straightened their knees in so long that they were unable to do it on their own. That's were strengthening the opposing muscle which was also in a constant, unnatural state, helped; but, it's difficult to undo years of improper posture without knowledge/awareness AND assistance. The neuro-muscular signal is strong and constant for incorrect posture and there becomes a loss of muscle memory for what is natural and correct. These explanations don't translate in writing sometimes. Hope that helps.

SH…that's why the foam rolling, if done carefully and properly, before a workout can help. It's like the WD 40 on your joints.
It helps to relax/release the over-active muscle (agonist) so the the under-active muscle (antagonist) can get stronger. It's the agonist/antagonist muscle relationship that's like a see-saw. They both should be active and inactive when needed and appropriate back and forth with natural body movements like standing, lifting, sitting, bending... If the person on the upper portion of the see saw grabs a branch and stays up (stays active, the active muscle) then the other person (muscle) never gets to do anything and falls asleep (inactive). Eventually the rains comes and goes and the seesaw rusts and gets stuck in this position. It takes some undoing to get the seesaw (joint) moving properly and naturally again.

SH, You should know that this all came about for me when my body began falling apart at 40! There's plenty of hope for you to get it. It's like your phone wires are crossed and there's a weak signal. If you can straighten out the wires, the signal will be there as strong as ever. Muscles want to do their job and want to cooperate with the other muscles by working together, you just have to wake them up. Muscle memory is a powerful thing just like driving the same way to work everyday, you don't even have to think about it. When you get a new job, you have to forget the old route and think about the new route every morning. Eventually the new route is normal.

AG,
I suspect that our backgrounds in yoga make this easier for you and me even with all of my injuries and pain. In fact, my injuries to neck, shoulder, hip and tailbone made me very aware and knowledgable in the workings of the spine, just not "ground-breaking WW" knowledgable. Had I added WW to my resume years ago, I wouldn't have experienced POP. However, I don't think that I would have ever understood any of it without my experiences, including POP.
In my dealings with clients, it's not that easy. It's a shame that there's not a WW practitoner in every state.

Activeandlapsed and gr8fl,
You are right. I already understood many of Christine's teachings before POP. Some of them weren't working because of the mis-information that I was getting and practicing about tilting my pelvis and my lumbar curve. I was on the cusp of WW just couldn't get it all together until I got that final piece of the puzzle. I certainly don't want to discourage anyone. This has been and 8 year journey for me to attempt to live a pain-free and active life. I feel as though I have landed at the end of the rainbow with my pot of gold being WWW. Who knows what's to come, more challenges, I'm sure. If you remember my story, it started at age 40 when I couldn't hold my coffee cup or the steering wheel on my car, a very debilitated state. I was fit then too. It progressed to neck, bak, hip, knee, foot pain---you name it! My journey went from expert to expert (all cutting edge and Non-surgical with posture-based approach) as I learned the workings of my body, and corrected along the way. Now, my first day postural assessment with my clients involves me doing a George Burns, "Oh God" impersonation which includes head forward, chest slumped down, feet turned out, tailbone tucked and arms swinging behind to keep the balance, … The young ones don't know George Burns or the movie, "Oh God", but do have grandparents or know an older person who fits the bill. All ages are horrified at the thought and immediately turn their feet straight ahead, put their shoulders down, chest up and listen carefully to what I have to say. Hope that visual will stick with y'all. It's hard for most to forget :-) Again, it's been an "8" year journey for me. This is just another experience but a very important one!

Hockeymom, Glad that you are getting some movement in your upper back, shoulders and chest. I'm also glad that you mentioned that the heat helped. Since I have degenerative discs in my cervical spine I have fought for years to get myself out of kyphosis (for me it's painful when I'm tight). I failed to mention one of the most active yet difficult to self-massage muscles which are the upper trapezius. When it's overly active it absolutely participates in keeping the shoulders up by the ears instead down away from the ears.

One thing that helps me after a workout when I'm loosened up is bending my head forward and letting the warm, massaging water spray from my shower onto the back of my neck and all along my upper traps. You can carefully do 1/2 head circles (just the forward ones) and really heat up and massage at the same time those upper traps, levator scapula even the supraspinatus. These are things that I do everyday without even thinking about it. I actually do this every time that I shower!
Also, my sister shared with me a visual that she got from a PT which was the one thing that worked for her even though I had been sharing my anecdotes with her for YEARS to no avail. The PT told her to visualize putting her shoulder blades in her back pockets (of her jeans). This visual worked for her to get her shoulders down!

BTW-PT also told her to pull her shoulders back which in my opinion is so WRONG, unless you want add severely overactive Rhomboids (and other muscles) to the mix and make your situation worse---that's just my side note, ugh!
I gently told my sister that perhaps lifting her sternum as if there were a light shining from it that you wanted to point to the sky would be better than pulling shoulders back. She said, "yes, that does the same thing". Well she's half right. It gets your chest lifted WITHOUT unnaturally engaging the rhomboids. I LOVE that Christine says over and over DO NOT pull your shoulders back and make sure that your upper back stays WIDE!!! That was one of my lightbulb moments when I knew that after a week of searching and crying over my POP, I'd finally found something(WWW) that made sense. I'm going to start trying to share my lightbulb moments with all of you piece-by-piece.

Hockeymom, I have a question about Bikram. I've done all other types of yoga including hot vinyasa but never Bikram. I see that boat is one of the main poses. I was a master at boat until my POP and then learned from WWW about the hip angles greater than 90 being a bad idea--I was very good at lots of things that were a bad idea, no wonder I have POP! How do you abstain from that pose without causing trouble in class? The Bikram near me has a reputation for NOT being very accommodating for those who can't or won't do some of the poses. Also, are there any other of the main poses that are bad for POP according to WWW? I didn't scrutinize all of them. Most looked fine but I just glanced at them on-line.

SH, you just have to play around with it and be mindful NOT to feel strain in your lower thoracic. If you keep your chin in and pony tail up with either, you should be fine. I fear that when talking to my sister on the phone, not in person, that she's throwing her shoulders back, causing the head to come forward. So don't tense up too much. A good order to think about is: chin in, (high) pony tail up, then whichever version of shoulders down helps you. Keep trying but don't feel tension. If it makes you feel any better, I have a series of reminders for bending over: 1- weight in toes 2 - keep lumbar curve 3 - straight line from crown to tailbone (yin and yang energy) 4 - bend at hips 5 - bend knees... We're all working on our stuff.

SH, I don't think that I answered your abs question. Once I get in upper body position, I find that the only way that I can get my abs to relax is to very slightly tilt my tailbone up and feel the slight internal rotation of my thighs and thus feel like a 4 legged animal pelvis. I then focus my breathing specifically to the lowest part of my belly. I'm finding my belly is expanding lower and lower the more that I practice. Perhaps others can share their methods as well.

AL, Keep writing. I'm sure that it will help others. You are right that steps 1 (chin in) and 2 (ponytail up) got you into the posture (it does for me too) because of the work that you've done in the 10 months. You obviously had released many of those over-active muscles along the way. Try the shower massage to keep them loose as you master the posture. It's for the people who don't feel the shoulders down after chin in and pony tail to the sky that need step 3 (shoulders down). It sounds like you ARE having a lightbulb moment…awesome! I am sure that I am immersed into a new journey, mind, body and spirit, as well. I had been feeling the symptoms worsen over the last months before my POP. Now on days when I feel angry about it happening (the POP) I remind myself that if it hadn't happened suddenly, I'd have spent years trying to figure it out on my own. Thank goodness for mis-information from both PT's that I tried AND my OB/GYN, because if not for their ignorance and me having learned things outside of the medical community in the last 8 years, I would still be stuck in that vicious cycle of strengthening my glutes with weight in my heals ( a daily thing for me), doing lots of boats, hanging knee raises (to help with the so-called weak lower abs that cause POP) and many more things (especially Kegals--UGH!) that I am now learning daily were my undoing and set me on this path. Trying to stay healthy AND look the part were affecting my spirit. I had been feeling like something was wrong because I was doing everything that I knew and was feeling worse. I can honestly say that I feel set free by this because everything is feeling more natural and true to myself.

Al, I thought about this last night but turned the forum off of my computer when eyes are in the room. All of this is too much for them.
This is how it works for me:
1 - chin in
2- pony tail (a high ponytail) pulled straight up to sky
3 - if shoulders aren't down then either sternum light to the sky or shoulder blades in pockets to achieve shoulders down.
4 - slight tilt up of tailbone (like 4 legged animal)
5 - relaxing lowest of belly visualizing it falling between your legs like lopo. Doing this while belly breathing into the lowest part of belly really helps me relax from lumbar down when I feel those abs want to tighten.
This helps me to feel strong without feeling tense in WWW posture and keeps me from pushing my belly out. I really hope that others share their methods as well. We all learn differently and feel things differently.

hockeymom, Thank you for the clarification. I will look for Christine's thread. I agree about it being my own practice and at the same time I don't want to offend anyone else's practice, unless they ask for my opinion, then I tell them what I believe. I've always had to tread lightly on some yoga classes because I don't do inversions and things that are counterintuitive to my cervical spine issues. I know that I have certain weaknesses that compromise the poses. Thanks again!

Al,
1-Wish I could be there to pick up that perfect piece of hair for you. I say a high ponytail to help you get closer. Almost 30 years ago I took a ballet 101, (I had no ballet experience before or after that) class in college which was taught by a world renowned teacher who walked around and picked up everyones hair from the crown to show them how the energy should feel when the spine is extended and strong posture exhibited. I never forgot it how it felt.
2 - I walked too long today and feel that the first part of my walk was better. Perhaps you could shorten your walks and go for quality over quantity and build up to a longer walk?
3 - I do all 4 steps in seated as I do in standing which works for me:
a - chin in
b - pony tail (from crown) straight up
c - shoulders down without creating tension
d - slightly tilt tailbone up. This helps you get onto your SITS bones. You may have to pull your cheeks out one at a time like you do in yoga. This helps me get that lumbar curve. I am very sway back looking because of my proportions and don't look as flat backed as some of the pics but that's my proportion of torso thickness (not much) and glute posterior thickness (more than my torso. We can all look different in the same proper position. There are so many body types out there. With my new WW posture I feel like I look like I have a corncob up my butt!! Yet no one has noticed or said a word. This has shocked me that no one even notices. I feel like it's a very drastic change and look, but apparently not.
e - I feel the internal rotation of the thighs slightly when the tailbone goes up as well.
All of this feels tight in my hips which is why I do the DVD's everyday and am waiting on the hips DVD. The DVD's definitely reinforce these habits over and over which I know is necessary to undo old habits and fix my posture. Shower and epsom salt bath at night help too. I also put ionized magnesium behind my knees at night (was already doing this for my thyroid condition) to relax muscles during muscle recovery, aftetll, this is WORK for the muscles.
4- Safely Held re-posted the "Lopo" thread today where Louise describes the belly between the legs, I think.

AL, It's taken time for me to accept the non-flat abs and the bubble butt. My boyfriend just saw me naked tonight and asked what's up with the extra arch in my back. I told him that it's the new me. We'll see if he gets used to it. More importably, it's the real me and if he doesn't like it, it's his loss. It's such a different look from the ripped and and glutes of steal. I had warned him about 2 weeks ago that I would be fine but that this injury will cause me to look more feminine, "dancer" look. He's figuring out what that means. I am ready to walk away if it is an issue with him. It's been hard enough on me to accept that if he can't accept it, I'm sure that there's someone who will and I know that is true. I feel much more genuine as well.
Namaste :-)

AL,
I think that we are even more alike than you thought! When I was 20, oh so long ago, my patella (knee caps) were off track and causing pain in my meniscus and back. I was told by the best orthopedist in our very medical town, that with me being a girl with my Q-angle and valgus of the knees that I wasn't meant to run. He put his hand on my shoulder and said, "Honey, girls just weren't made to run, you just weren't built for it". He told me to wrap both knees and walk as much as i wanted. It wasn't until 20 years later after seeing many female athletes do many sports that I decided to strengthen my hips, correct my valgus (knock-knees) and run. I got stronger but was still feeling unsure about running. Then I saw a CHi-Running workshop flyer at my gym. It said, "learn to run naturally, the way that your body was meant to, without pain" I signed up immediately and learned the pulling up through the ponytail, stretching the hips properly, mid-sole strike, shoulders down, forward lean with a straight line from crown to ear to shoulder extended back foot, relax upper body with tall spine, etc. All WW friendly postures BUT...
The problem is that it was developed by a MAN. He studied animals as part of his journey but had us lying on our back and pulling that naval in…ugh! He got so much of it right and then ruined it with the naval in thing! I did run for a good while but eventually the naval in thing, I believe, began to take away my lumbar curve.
As for my abs feeling stronger, probably yes because they move when I move…a good thing aye? My spinal support system is substantially better. My ability to sit and stand upright in a proud comfortable posture feels EXCELLENT! Only a few days before my POP incident, my upper traps and neck were burning and hurting and I wasn't able to stand upright or keep my shoulders down or my chin in. I was worried for a few days that I was going to have to go to a spine doctor which I had been avoiding. My neck pain is totally gone since www, NONE AT ALL! I can barely remember how bad it was unless I think about it. I am so grateful for that. Now I know that I don't have to live with increasing and debilitating neck pain for the rest of my life. What a wonderful side-effect of the posture!
One of my clients just returned from visiting her son for a month in Australia and New Zealand. She has some beautiful pics on FB. I ran into her today and she, being very intuitive, wants to have lunch and tell me about her trip and hear what's going on with me. She said that she can tell that something is up! She was in a terrible accident 11 years ago and really messed herself up from head-to-toe, and started training with me over a year ago after a divorce and rehab… boy, we all have our stories, don't we?
I will be doing something with this one day. I'm still trying to be patient and just let things fall into place. Tonight I am thinking about my allergies more than my POP, now that's a switch. I thought I'd never have moments where I didn't think about the POP. Those first days sure are scary when everywhere that you turn you get bad information, but you can't stop thinking about how different your life suddenly became. I like to find people smarter than me! Cheers to WWW!

…oh and we proceeded to have great sex in several positions that were all comfortable. I didn't even think about the POP. I am so much more comfortable (and flexible Haha) in my own body. Yes, I'm a new woman. Actually, I'm the same me just better. I came onto this forum angry at the incompetence of people in the medical community that were trying to help me but were making it worse and I knew it; I just didn't know where to turn. I rarely get angry, but when I do, it's a platform for action. I'm like the gentle mom, until you mess with my kids, then I'll take you down. I always tell my children that if anyone EVER tries to hurt them, I'll take them down. It makes my kids laugh because I'm all of 5'6 and small-framed, but they also know that I mean it! I'm a fighter when I need to be but mostly a lover.
Namaste