Its Official:- Pregnancy has not made my prolapse worse!

Submitted by babs on June 5, 2007 - 7:54am
Body: 

Hi all,

I had my appointment with the female heath physio this morning. As expected she did examine me. she was very surprised to find that my condition had not worsened and was better than when I had last seen her.
Her reasoning for fearing a worsening was because I fell pregnant again 6 months after i had baby #3 , when my rectocele made its presence known to me. Apparently, if you fall pregnant again quickly it tends to stretch further your pelvic floor and the supporting tissues before they've had a chance to heal.
Anyways, my rectocele is smaller, but we both think that is due in part to the restitching of my tear. The good news is that its asymptomatic. My cervix is higher. I have a small rectocele which I am not currently aware of. My pelvic muscle tone she graded as a high 3/ low 4 (the highest is 5, and you will not see this in women who have had children) and I am still only 8 weeks post partum. So I won't need stimulation and biofeedback!

Gmom has said that pg has not made her worse, and for me, both my physio and I agree, I am actually better than I was this time last year.

This may not be the experience of everyone.

I did not set out to get pregnant again so quickly, baby#4 was a surprise. In a way I am glad as I would have obsessed about whether my body could have stood up to another pregnancy, and dithered, but this way the decision was taken for me.

Bottom line, if you want more children don't let the prolapse stand in your way!

One other thing, I can also report that our local Heathcare Trust is now providing Pilates classes to post partum women, as well as pre natal and post natal yoga classes, in a bid to improve core stability and lessen the incidence and worsening of prolapse. My PT told me of one lady who had been recommended for surgery due to the severity of her prolapses, but it is now Trust policy to send all women for physio before surgery on the NHS, and she also took up Pilates. 6 months later that surgeon was amazed to find that he had trouble even finding the prolapses.

As this site shows, stories of stabilisation and small improvements can be quite common. The stories of radical improvement and reversal are more rare. As the physio said, we don't promise to make women better, only stop them from getting worse.

Nevertheless, the rare stories of some women radically improving are really encouraging, and help us to persevere.

blessings,
Babs

MeMyselfAndI

June 5, 2007 - 9:45am

That is great!

I had Son1 and 2 close together (they are 15mths apart) So guess that would have made it worse - But until I had my daughter many years later - I didnt even know I had it lollll

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key!
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

babs

June 5, 2007 - 10:25am

... but as ww teaches, lifestyle changes are important if improvement and stabalisation are to be maintained. I'm willing to keep working at it!
even if it does come back on me again, you ladies will encourage me not to panic and desert common sense in favour of what seems like a quick fix.
keep up the good work ladies.

ps, sue - its hard not to think of that poor child and what her parents must be going through. I hope she is found soon.

Titus2mom

June 5, 2007 - 6:41pm

I was wondering what a Pilates class is. My prolapses are severe and I was wondering if I could benefit from these classes or perhaps they are offered just in your area? Thanks for the info.
Also, thank you for sharing your experience. It's encouraging to hear that pregnancy doesn't necessarily worsen a prolapse.

babs

June 6, 2007 - 3:29am

pilates is an exercise programme coined by joseph pilates. it was used as physiotherapy for soldiers , but was widely embraced by dancers as it aims at strengthening the core muscles. its kinda similar to yoga but without the spiritual dimension.

christine is not a fan of pilates, as she believes it is suited to male bodily structure and not to female, and that it encourages women to further lose the posture which is most beneficial to encouraging the right intra abdominal pressures.

the reason i mention it is because of the radical improvement that the pt was aware of in one patient of hers, and also because it helps show that slowly the medical profession is undergoing a revolution.

here in the uk we have a national health service, which provides free healthcare, cradle to grave (although it is creaking under the pressure of an aging population and bureaucracy).

it is very encouraging to know that in my healthcare area, surgeons insist on seeing whether there will be improvement with physio before even contemplating surgery, and thereafter encourage women to try and live with pessaries etc first.

when i was last with the pt, she was conducting the free pilates classes for ladies with prolapse. 5 or 6 of us went once a week for about an hour and she took us through a gentle series of exercises aimed at improving our "natural corset".

now the healthcare trust is expanding this, and aiming towards prevention, with free pre natal yoga classes, and post natal yoga also. it is impressive that there has been such a shift in thinking that these are provided free or else heavily subsidised.

as to the availability of classes, i live in northern ireland, and the free classes are publicised by the physio to her patients. there is also an abundance of private classes for yoga nearby. (i am seeing a teacher for 1 to 1 sessions and have found that useful.)

even if that fails there are any number of post natal pilates and yoga books and videos/ dvds on amazon.

christine did review a yoga dvd on another thread.

someone had also mentioned t tapp exercises on another thread. they promise improvement for prolapse. i did look at the website, and the stuff was pricey and postage would have been a lot of money on top of that, plus i would like to hear from someone that they actually work before splashing out!

it may be that none of these things positively affect your prolapses, but then again, what have you to lose? and you should end up stronger, more flexible and toned!

in any event, i wish you well.
babs

Christine

June 6, 2007 - 10:21am

Be careful of concepts like “natural corset”, which assumes an isolated and specific form and function to a part of the body. The female “corset”, if anything, wraps around our chest, buttocks and down our thighs. The female core is best conditioned through exercises that work abdominal, butt and thigh muscles at the same time.

mommynow

June 6, 2007 - 11:49am

Babs what you wrote gives me some hope. When I gave birth to my daughter I got a big tear where the OB stitched me inside and out for 45 minutes. When I went to the bathroom for the first time I heard a "pop" and my butt hurt. Ever since I have had rectal pressure. When I went to the OB he did a pap and said I had a minor uterus and bladder prolapse. He didn't say anything about the rectocele but I don't see how he could diagnose it that way. I know I have one as well because I can feel it. I have always wondered if the stitches didn't hold and therefore the lack of support has caused me to have this pressure. I have tried all of Christine's suggestions and they have helped my other two prolapses but I have this constant rectal pressure that doesn't go away. It just doesn't make sense to me and makes me think there is something else going on. I am wondering if after I have this baby (I am 24 weeks pregnant) I can get restitched and hopefully fix any "loose ends" so to speak in that area. Hopefully I will have a smaller rectocele too. I am going to talk to my midwife next time and see what she thinks.

Christine

June 6, 2007 - 1:24pm

Oh Mommynow, I wish we had answers to this persistent question. I so hope Babs’ mini-repair continues to give good results and if you decide to do the same, will keep in touch with us over the years so that we may have one more little data point (and of course we always want you to stay in touch with us anyway) along the way.

I “stole” this off another site just now:

“The doctor said that while the rectocele is moderate, I do not need surgery and anyway additional surgery is not recommended until 6 months after hysterectomy. Also, at 44 years old, he said I should hold off from getting the rectocele repaired as long as I can, for it will fail after 5 years and I will have to get it redone every 5 years after that.”

While this doctor’s logic may be sound in one respect, it is faulty in that we know the vagina and rectum can only handle so many “repairs” before far more serious symptoms show up – like fecal incontinence and paralysis.

It is a very difficult problem, because we want to think that by “cleaning up” the old scar and pushing the rectocele out of the vagina symptoms will improve, but years and years of medical literature belie that assumption. A more drastic (and all-too-common) result is that worse bulging and pressure appear again above or below the new scar line.

I know in time we will have enough data to be sure, but we’re not there yet.

Love and hugs,

Christine

babs

June 6, 2007 - 1:54pm

can i just add that i didn't make a conscious decision to have a repair. i'm afraid that decision was taken for me, and following on from the pessimistic note sounded there by christine, i, too suspect that in time the rectocele will in all likelihood trouble me again. you see, my episiotomy from hell followed by tearing has left my perineum thinner, and the back wall of my vagina thinned at one side and weak. but, i try not to think too much like that, and i make the most of the improvement that was foisted on me by my circumstances, while it lasts, and do all i can to maintain the improvement.
christine mentioned other side effects. immediately after the restitching, for about a week afterwards, i had this horrible sensation of part of my sphincter being paralysed and not relaxing properly. i can tell you that that was just as horrible as rectal pressure and the bulge, and boy was i happy when that passed and proved to be temporary!
i had a friend once who had a 4th degree tear when delivering her firstborn. she had a terrible time as she was left with terrible sexual disfunction. after trying all other routes open she did go in for a spot of reconstructive surgery to tidy her up, and at the time it was such a relief for her. i think the repair held up well for her second delivery too.
i don't know if others agree, but it does appear that rectocele is the most stubborn of the celes, and the most unresponsive to the posture.
likewise one of the midwives i saw during my pregnancy was saying that there is a specific recto-anal angle needed for evacuation which is lost in a rectocele. i personally feel that the bridge pose that i have been working with in yoga has helped keep my bowels moving in the right direction so to speak!
i am determined to try and prevent exacerbating the breakdown of this repair by getting constipated.
you never know maybe in 10 years i'll still beposting here and might just be able to say the repair didn't deteriorate. i can but hope.
chances are if you have scar tissue from delivery 1 you will also find that it reopens to some extent on delivery two, and the decision will also be taken for you. i would be shy of asking them to undertake a deliberate repair, lest they be overzealous on the trimming and tucking, and leave you weaker down there than before. but if they can be careful you too may be left better off than before.
in any event i wish you every blessing in your pregnancy and a safe and trauma free delivery in due course.
regards
babs

Christine

June 6, 2007 - 2:43pm

Trying to exercise precaution, particularly with women who have already sustained significant damage, is difficult and risky and I am doing the very best I can. I would appreciate it if we could all work together without belligerence.

Rectocele forms a greatly exaggerated anorectal angle and therefore, like cystocele, forms a kink that makes elimination more difficult. Posterior colporrhaphy straightens out (obliterates) the angle to greater or lesser degrees.

Actually, Babs, in considering the bridge pose as you describe it, I can see where it might be useful in helping to reestablish the anorectal angle because the anal canal is being rigidly held in position as the rectum is falling back and away from it. You may be onto something! :-)

alemama

June 6, 2007 - 4:25pm

It seems like if I use my breath to pull in my rectocele and then lie on my back it stays flatter.....and that the same thing the bridge pose does for me- but......then my cystocele is more noticable (I am guessing b/c the rectocele is not holding it up so to speak).

Christine

June 6, 2007 - 4:33pm

...quiet, passive breathing in the bridge pose. This way the rectocele can fall gently back (reinforcing the proper angle) and the front wall isn't being pulled actively back.

patty

June 6, 2007 - 5:25pm

Sorry I have to ask but I'm not familiar with the bridge pose. Can someone explain it to me?
Thank you
Patty

louiseds

June 6, 2007 - 9:52pm

Hi Mommynow

Rectoceles suck! I can only encourage you to be patient during your pregnancy, and do whatever you need to for the next few months while you have a bulky little foetus growing inside you. I seem to remember reading a long time ago that constipation is a very common side effect of pregnancy. Something about hormones, less physical activity, and physical pressure on the bowel by the developing foetus. Pregnancy is in many ways a waiting game.

Try to keep your bowel motions soft and moving, stay as calm as you can so stressing over it doesn't bind you up, and do what you can with diet.

I can only think that physical positions (yoga or otherwise), eg those antenatal cat stretches on all fours where you alternately arch and relax your back that allow you to take the downwards pressure off your bowel to allow it to stretch out by itself, can only help that bit of bowel that is the rectocele to get back where it belongs. Don't do a long session, just get down on all fours and do a couple every hour or so, or when you feel the rectocele bothering you. It just might help the rectocele and is a good flexibility exercise for pregnancy.

Apart from that I hope that you are able to enjoy your pregnancy and draw strength from women like Granolamom. You will get there.

Cheers

Louise

Christine

June 7, 2007 - 12:06am

Hi Patty,

Babs gives a good description of it in the Preg&Prolapse forum under the topic “firebreathing postpartum question”.

I was just brainstorming about the bridge pose and the anorectal angle. I was actually thinking about it in terms of women who previously had their angle straightened by deep episiotomy or colporrhaphy.

Christine

granolamom

June 7, 2007 - 9:59am

I was wondering where you've been, and wondering how pg is treating you.
I agree with the others, rectoceles stink. seems to be the most stubborn of the three 'celes, at least that's what I gather from all the posts on this forum.
I'd be too chicken to have any 'loose ends' fixed up, I dont' trust that the 'fixer upper' would stop there and that I'd end up with godknowswhat done to me. but I'm paranoid I guess.
so far, I've been extremely lucky, my rectocele got no worse during pg and only bothered me if I was not careful with diet. I did some hands & knees stretching like louise described a few times daily while pg, I found it very comfortable actually. and birthed my little guy in that position too. now my rectocele is not making itself known and I am not going to look for it. I'm guessing it will come back at some point but for now I'm counting my blessings.
I hope you find some relief from the pressure.

babs

June 7, 2007 - 11:38am

hi mommynow and gmom,
i had a quick skite through what google turned up today on success rate for posterior colorrhaphy (or whatever its called) and it made for dismal reading.
Basically the medical reports show that the repairs don't last, and more often than not result in increased bowel and sexual disfunction. all the more reason to keep a minimalist approach to intervention. i think gmom, your caution is well grounded!
as i said earlier, i didn't have a choice. the rip needed repaired, and it feels that they did a right good job of it, but things are still ragged down there. i do think if they had been asked expressly to tidy me up and see if they could improve the bulge, they probably would have done more to proactively sort me out, rather than reacting to the tear which was bleeding heavily.
i think mommynow, i would just go with the flow. if you rip open your scar the decision may be taken for you.
some midwives prefer to leave some tears to heal by themselves.
babs

louiseds

June 8, 2007 - 1:28am

Hi again Mommynow

Just to add to my "don't worry" message, another thing that happened to me during pregnancy, that I just remembered while reading the newest post in this thread.

It is a waiting game, and another of the things that happens during the wait is the mental preparation and mental 'nesting'. I think this might be part of a sort of primal striving to find a safe place to birth, identifying potential threats to yourself during labour and birth, and going thrugh all the 'what-ifs?' This can be the stuff of nightmares, thinking of the worst case scenario. I think it was a precursor of a depression episode mid-pregnancy for me, and was quite scary at the time. The outcome of the pregnancy was our darling daughter and all went beautifully during the labour and birth.

What I am saying is, be aware that your worries may be unfounded, and the labour and birth may turn out to be close to perfect. It is not a given that anything will go wrong. Worrying a lot about potential problems will not make them go away; it may just upset you and stress you out at a beautiful time of your life.

I am glad that you are finding out as much as you can about what might happen, and doing some planning. Just remember also to focus on the possibility of it all going very well, and no further damage happening.

As I have got older my body carries more and more marks and scars that have resulted from simple wear and tear. They are all reminders of things I have experienced in this life. Some could have been prevented and some were caused by things beyond my control.

I am hoping that to be pretty well worn out by the time I fall of the perch will be a sign of a life well-lived.

Cheers

Louise

mommynow

June 8, 2007 - 7:39am

I didn't mean that I was going to ask for extra surgery to help with my rectocele. I meant that if I tear again maybe when they stitch me up this time it will help.

I am very hopeless right now. In this life I need some kind of hope to go on and it seems that everywhere I turn there is only bad news. Everyone keeps saying the surgeries cause more problems yet I have to live with this constant pressure day in and out. I have tried every natural approach and haven't had any improvement in that area. I am still young and am getting very depressed about this because there doesn't seem to be anything for me to hold on to. I don't have any constipation and my bowel movements are normal for the most part. It is the pressure that I feel. There are so many things that I can't do anymore. One day I would like to go back to teaching yet how is that going to happen??? Some days the minute I stand up I need to where the v2 supporter so that I don't feel so uncomfortable. The problem is that the v2 supporter is not very comfortable. It is really uncomfortable while sitting so I am constantly taking it on and off. I just can't imagine being so limited forever. I know things are going to be worse while I am pregnant but I had no improvements before I was pregnant either so I am not very hopeful.

Sorry for the depressing post.

mommynow

June 8, 2007 - 8:04am

I forgot to respond to you granolamom. Pregnancy has made my pressure worse. I am finally feeling better at 24 weeks in terms of feeling sick so that is a plus. I feel the baby a lot lower this time and because I am bigger in the hip area etc. the v2 supporter is even less comfortable. It is tight around my hips and lower belly but I have to wear it off and on to eleviate some pressure otherwise my butt starts to hurt from the pressure. I have a midwife so I am hoping to go as natural as possible. I am glad your rectocele didn't get worse. Thanks for asking.

Christine

June 8, 2007 - 9:31am

Hi Everyone,

This one has been close to my heart from the day she showed up with such a wrenching story. I have no answers. Perhaps further surgery would change the pressure gradient of her fused back vaginal and front rectal walls and maybe it wouldn’t. There is no operation that restores the fine, silky fascia in between the two organs, which allows them to function separately.

ALL OF US, HOWEVER, SHOULD BE JUMPING UP AND DOWN AND SCREAMING FOR OBSTETRIC CHANGES TO BRING ABOUT BROAD BASED REDUCTIONS IN MATERNAL INJURY DURING CHILDBIRTH.

Mommynow…

Frankly, I think time is on your side. The pressure is probably due to stretching of major nerve vessels coming off the lower spine because there is so much downward pull from two organs moving as one. My guess is that over time they’ll stretch out and the pressure will subside.

I’ll email you…I’m working on a whole new, organic and COMFORTABLE support garment. You can be my first test subject if you want!

xoChristine

babs

June 8, 2007 - 9:57am

every pregnancy is different, and as the baby grows it may change position and relieve some of your pressure.

from about 30 weeks on during my pregnancy the baby seemed to crush my bladder and urethra so that i also felt i needed to pee but could only pass about an eggcupful at a time during the day, and then was up every 15 mins during the night to clear all the fluid out of my system. the hospital did arrange for the physio dept to let me have one of those support braces plus a giant elastic stocking to help with the pressure from the bump. in all honesty i hardly used either more than one day as i ended up substituting one discomfort for another.

i do feel for you as this must hang over you every day like a big black cloud.

if it helps, after my first delivery intercourse was really painful and usually ended up with me crying afterwards. Not good, when we had only commenced intercourse after our marriage and baby #1 came along after 10 months! during the ensuing 18months i had some pretty dark days because of that, feeling freaky, feeling i was a disappointment as a wife etc.
but, for me, it did get better during my second pregnancy. after baby #2 it was easier. my pt says i still have a tight band of muscle which hasn't been scarred from my deliveries, and to this day i am still tender at the edge of this area, to the point that one wrong move during intercourse just makes me feel so uncomfortable. thats someting i live with. likewise is till get a sore back and draggy abdomen on bad days. i just try and stay mobile. having a second child is also a great distraction. you just don't get the same amount of time to notice your symptoms, and i do believe you will find this too!

i really don't know what advice to offer you, as you feel that you are in a catch 22 situation. time and effort has not improved how you feel, and surgery may or may not help either, as so often it is tailored to dealing with the cosmetic bulge, and may not actually help with the underlying symptoms. yet, not doing anything about it seems worse. you are still young and don't want the discomfort that you are suffering. there just are no easy answers.

since delivery #1 have you spoken to your Dr, physio or midwife about it? what are they saying is the cause of your fulness?
is it that your bowels are actually backlogged, and that you have a kink in your bowel that may not have made it as far as bulging into your vagina? or is it possible that you feel fulness and congestion because you may have piles internally? you know, when i look back, when i first took my rectocele, i was examined by my gp twice and a midwife twice, both of whom said there was no prolapse. guess what. they examined me lying down, when my rectocele lay pretty flat, and didn't go against gravity even if i coughed. duhh!

it may be that the stretching alone, or stretching tearing and restitching from delivery #2 may bring you some relief. i do so hope so.

i guess you will have to just take each day as it comes during pregnancy, and for a few months after the birth while your body heals, andthen see how you are and explore your options.

personally, i have always felt that if my symptoms were bad enough and nothing else was working then i would opt for surgery, but as time has gone on that day is further and further away.

i have found yoga to be helpful postnatally, and whilst i still have my bulges in the back wall, they are tighter after restitching, and my bowels are functioning well. pregnancy isn't a great time for trying new exercise, but perhaps postnatally you won't feel the same pressure, and things will be easier. i hope so!
wishing you every blessing,
babs

babs

June 8, 2007 - 10:33am

i can feel your frustration and disappointment.

it might help you to read through your progress in the early days, as the techniques taught by christine do seem to have helped you.

i also see that you have been much more into yoga and exercise than i have been, so me suggesting anyting is a little like teaching my granny to suck eggs, to use a good old ulsterism!

it does seem that you did have at least one helpful and sympathetic gynae appointment before, and maybe if a second stretching doesn't help you the way it helped me, you can seek their advices again.

one other thing.

both you and i had epidurals for first labours. you had an hour and a half of pushing. i was at 9cm by 11am, and then got an anterior lip, and wasn't delivered until 6.45 pm. i never got to push. i had atrial of pushing for 30 mins to see if we could move him from where he was stuck, then i signed the consent for the c section, but they cut me big down below and pulled him out by forceps, ripping his sternum mastoid muscle in the process. my labour went on so long that surprise, surprise my contractions became weak and incoordinate. he was 9lbs 4 ozs and had a head circumference of 37.4cm. he was a big baby.

my daughter(also an abigail! - lovely meaning of name!) came out after 2 mins 44 secs of pushing even though i was in a bed with the back raised to 90 degrees.

baby #3's head cam out in one powerful expulsive push.

my point? AVOID THE EPIDURAL!

yes labour still really really hurts, but its over so much quicker and with less intervention when you go with gas and air.

i wanted an epidural with baby 2 but my aged midwife knew better, and used every excuse in the book to avoid giving it! she was right, and i am still grateful to her for helping me deal with my panic, and manage the pain.

i wish you well, and healing,
babs

alemama

June 8, 2007 - 11:13am

Been thinkin about you......Have you tried massage therapy? Chiropractics? Meditation? Acupuncture? Just don't give up. And take the message from you body and rest. If there is one thing I could go back and redo from my pregnancies it is to rest when my body said rest.

granolamom

June 8, 2007 - 11:31am

I had this with my ds (baby number two)
after trying unsuccessfully to push him past it (for over an hour!)
mw got her hands in there, held it open and told me to push.
I am thoroughly convinced that this had a lot to do with the development of my 'celes.
the attending OB (mw worked in an ob practice and their policy was that an obgyn had to attend mw births in addition to the mw @@) told me the next day
'you're lucky T. (mw) delivered you. If it was just me, that would've been a forceps delivery'. that kinda took me by surprise. this same dr was pushing on my stomach during delivery. till I yelled at him to take his hands off me, because how can I push if he's pushing??

this time, NO PUSHING.
I highly recommend that to everyone. its incredible...the baby knows how to get out, you just have to allow it to happen.

babs

June 8, 2007 - 11:46am

interesting concept - no pushing.

in my last 3 labours there has come a definite point where my body expelled the baby. i never made a conscious decision to push, yet at the end of a contraction thats precisely what happened. my whole body kinda contracted and out popped baby. not at all like the movies with all that panting and pushing.

my view, there comes a time when your body does a special expulsive contraction, although instinctively when the trime is right, your whole body bears down.

last labour wasn't just that clear. it was long and incoordinate and the mw was yapping at me to push cause she thought with my poor progress and exhaustion i was heading for a section.

i did try to push before i was ready, and my old friend "anterior lip" showed up and i then obeyed my body and rested for 30 mins and then the real pushing pains came on and baby came in 5 mins. tho' mw was right, she wasstarting to get distressed as she pooed on the way out!

just my thoughts.

mommynow

June 8, 2007 - 12:35pm

I am up for trying anything like that Christine. I have tried everything you have suggested so far.

Babs I did have a lot of progress with my other prolapses but it seems like one was traded for the other....I didn't notice the pressure in my butt until the symptoms from my bladder prolapse got better and my uterus went back up. I do feel better after doing yoga especially when I do stretches bending over at the waist but that only lasts for a short time and it takes a lot of work. I can't do those stretches while pregnant because I have really low blood pressure and get very dizzy and heart palpitations. I honestly don't care about what I look like down there. I would never get surgery for that. I just want a break from the pressure. I would like to be able to be on my feet, even for an hour, without feeling anything! Some days my butt just aches even with the supporter on. I am going to try avoiding the epidural this time. That is why I switched to a midwife. I wish I knew then what I know now!! If I had gone with a midwife the first time I probably would have avoided such a bad tear (that comes mostly from pushing) and probably would be way better off.

Alemama I go to the chiropractor every month and it has helped my chronic pain that I had from a car accident where a guy went through a stop sign and hit me. I am no longer in chronic pain. No one has ever told me how acupuncture would help down there. How can needles tighten everything up and put the rectum back up??? I really don't want someone massaging me internally down there. That would make me feel very uncomfortable. Plus I don't even know if they do that here. I have never heard of those kind of therapies for prolapse. I think we are behind in those areas. Even pessaries my OB said there is only one and you can't have sex with it etc.

All of you don't know how much your support means to me. You are all so sweet and supportive. Thank you so much.

alemama

June 8, 2007 - 7:17pm

I was thinking more for the stress and psychological part of the pressure---not the actual prolapse.....I try to "trick" myself sometimes and pretend that I don't have a prolapse- and see how long I can go with out feeling symptoms- it works if I have something to look forward to so I won't think about the prolapse. I know that baby gets so heavy. I didn't know about my prolapse (but defiantly had it) during my last pregnancy and I felt that pressure - down through my legs. But because didn't know it existed I didn't stress about it- I just thought I was doing a lot and needed rest.

Therese

June 10, 2007 - 8:17am

Reading about those of you who have given birth after prolapse--how can you be ok or even better? I mean logically it doesn't make any sense. No one should be okay--you all should be MUCH MUCH worse...
The only way you can be the same or even better is because pregnancy and giving birth has very LITTLE to do with prolapse...it is how we are treated during the process that determines it. The Dr is directly, in most cases, the cause of prolapse--not all but most.

I was also thinking that the prolapse might get better because your body is automatically healing that whole area after every birth so maybe because of that prolapse could even get better or seem better?

Thinking about it is just doesn't make sense that if you have already prolapsed...how you could be the same...What does everyone think about this? Doesn't the fact that post-prolapsed women can be okay after shild birth prove it has very little to do with our bodies but how the Dr directs/handles the delivery process?

Christine

June 10, 2007 - 9:00am

I absolutely agree it’s the PROCESS that determines post-partum prolapse, not the fact that a high percentage of humans can’t birth without sustaining long term damage.

This is the question Jane (fullofgrace) and I mulled over during the final months of her pregnancy. Why, if a previously prolapsed woman was in a POSITIVE position for giving birth, would the process not pull her vagina in advantageous ways rather than negative ones? Then, the powerful and little-studied process of involution would heal the vagina further. Jane was brave enough to go for it, had a beautiful home birth, and is better than ever today.

mouchoir

June 11, 2007 - 6:20am

"Why, if a previously prolapsed woman was in a POSITIVE position for giving birth, would the process not pull her vagina in advantageous ways rather than negative ones? "
Christine, I'm thinking of trying on my knees whilst holding onto the headboard of the bed - does this sound like a good position? My first symptom was uterine prolapse but I'm pretty sure I subsequently developed a cystocele and possibly something a bit funny going on with rectum. I'd love your advice on this please.

Christine

June 11, 2007 - 9:49am

Hi Mouchoir,

It’s getting near, isn’t it! I hope you are feeling well as you contemplate the blessed day.

I can only go by what experts say, such as the great pioneering women’s health doctor, Michel Odent, regarding hands and knees:

“In such postures, the mechanism of vulva opening is different from that of other postures. First the anterior part of the vulva opens more quickly; then the deflexion of the head tends to be delayed and, when the face is coming out, the chin is more lateral.”

My daughter managed her entire active labor on hands and knees! I don’t know if this is completely favorable (I was in the other room at the time reading one of her labor books which said staying indefinitely on hands and knees doesn’t fully utilize the help of gravity, which in my opinion isn’t entirely meaningful as our pelvis is in much the same position standing as on hands and knees), but it worked for her. We walked, sat, etc., early on, but then she lay on the floor until a contraction would come and then roll up onto her hands and knees gently rocking from side to side until it passed. Once she got in the tub, she just stayed in this position and yes, she grasped the edge of the tub as you are describing the headboard. First time labors can be very long. She is fit as a fiddle four months later with no symptoms of prolapse.

Jane found herself in a standing position as she birthed her third baby herself (her midwives were a bit late as I recall). Granolamom assumed hands and knees right as the baby was coming out, which worked well for her.

I have no doubt you will know what is best for you at the time as long as some person or institution is not trying to keep you on your back.

Many blessings,

Christine

louiseds

June 11, 2007 - 8:40pm

Hi all

I can recommend it. In 1987 I finally scraped up the nerve to run my third labour how I wanted to labour and spent most of it on my hands and knees, with all the walking in between that Christine described. I did tell the midwife that I would do the dead cockroach pose on the delivery table every few contractions, but for 30 seconds only so she could monitor the baby's heart, and that's all she got.

She did insist on my delivering on the table, but I somehow turned myself over, or around or something and ended up back to front on hands and knees with my butt up in the air. It was the funniest thing ever.

She was running around saying calling out, "You can't have a baby in that position dear", and I replied, "Just watch me." She was frantically ringing the doctor, who was at a basketball match, umpiring I think. He wasn't particularly worried and turned up with a big grin on his face in time to cut the cord.

Nic was born with the cord three times around his neck. This midwife was trying to get me to push, but I was quite happy where I was, keeping the baby up high until the doctor arrived. She eventually convinced me that I was going to have to push him out despite my protests that it would hurt, but I eventually gave in, and it hurt a bit like there was a baby coming out, but he came out quite easily, even if a bit blue. I still wonder to this day what sort of condition he would have been in, had I started pushing when she wanted me to, and put further pressure on the cord for an extended time.

I would use this position again without any doubt, but at home instead, where all sorts of other options are available. Unfortunately my biological clock precludes this.

Cheers

Louise

babs

June 12, 2007 - 1:43am

for my third and fourth labours i spent the most of the first stage sitting and rocking on a birthing ball. this was punctuated by walks up and down the hospital corridor. this helped me with pain management. i do think it helped with progress in the labour too.

once i was moved to the delivery suite i stayed sitting upright and rocked babck and forth with walks in between contractions (although with the length of my last labour i was becoming exhausted).

monitoring was not with the big belts, but just with a handheld doppler every 15 mins, and for the last hour at the end of every contraction, as this last time she did start to get distressed. but at least that kept me off the flat of my back which so often hinders labour.

when it came time to deliver baby they were happy for me to kneel on my knees with the hospital bed fully adjusted so that it was fully raised at the head. my body from my knees up stayed upright, but mostly my upper body was tilted forward from my pelvis to wards the bed end. i gripped the bed end and was able to drape myself over the bed end after each pain ended. this also facilitated the midwife who was able to manouevre my baby's shoulders out one at a time, as she had adjusted the bed to be raised up to just the right height, (and a student midwife was able to rub my back!). thighs and butt were tired at the end as i wasn't used to kneeling with my legs far enough apart to deliver a baby!

i've never tried hands and knees (as i have weak wrists which get very sore quite quickly) but this position worked well for me. also as baby's head came out there was no slippage back in again that happens when you lay flat.

i think when the time comes you will know if you are in a positive position, and provided that you are allowed to stay mobile you will intuitively find the position that is right for you.

the student midwife did say after the delivery of no. 4 that she thought this was an efficient position.

b

granolamom

June 12, 2007 - 10:17am

I totally agree with babs
as long as you are not medicated, well supported and able to be mobile and active, your body will lead you to the best position for you.
and sometimes even with all of our best efforts circumstances are beyond our control. labor is sometimes prolonged, baby's head sometimes at a funny angle. these types of things can lead to a prolapse or worsen an existing one, even if you do all the right things. reading christine's chapter on pg was empowering and at the same time disheartening to me. some of the damage that's already been done, in my case anyway, seems to make it less likely that my prolapse will ever completely resolve. I also wonder if it makes me more prone to further damage.

I try not to worry about it, but I would hate for any new mom to feel that she's somehow failed if she ends up with worsening of symptoms, kwim?

louiseds

June 12, 2007 - 10:34pm

I would just like to add that I didn't deliver him with my butt up in the air. By that stage I was definitely more upright on my knees, on the lowered foot of the delivery table but leaning forward with my hands on the main part of the table. Hope this clarifies it.

Cheers

Louise

mouchoir

June 13, 2007 - 7:20am

Thank you Christine, Louise, babs and Granolamom for your insightful advice and comments. On my previous birth I did adopt a kneeling position and it felt right so I will try between that and hands and knees and see which feels best. It's funny because I've read a lot about active birth and can see the sense in it but I managed my whole labour, until transition, curled up in the foetal position with careful breathing. This is how I always managed extreme period pains and found it was the only way I could cope with labour pains, and then I coped very well with them. It wasn't until I got to 10cms and was brought to the delivery room that I knelt up (think the gas and air helped me with that!). Thanks again, I'll keep you all posted!
(Louise, I was hoping your midwife was a good catcher after that description but you clarified it for me in your second post ;-)

babs

June 13, 2007 - 7:39am

keep us posted, and i hope all goes well for you too!

mouchoir

June 13, 2007 - 9:58am

Due on 1st July. Baby's head engaged as of yesterday so feeling the pressure now!

AnneKane

June 18, 2007 - 10:30pm

Hi

this is slightly off topic, but recently our japanese acupuncture teacher was telling us how problematic it can be for health to have an epidural under the second lumbar verterbrae, a point related to our vital core energy in chinese medicine acupuncture, he said we should suggest any one planning to use a epidural to specifically request not to have it on that spot as the anaestheitist can choose another..

Anyway just a thought for those of you about considering getting it.

x
Anne-helen