for Sybille

Submitted by Christine on November 26, 2007 - 12:05pm
Body: 

Hi Sybille,

I saw your post, too, when I was sick and could not respond at that time.

Thanks so much for coming back to say HI and tell us of your progress.

Just want to tell the others that Sybille was one of my very first supporters. Both she and I were on another forum where I tried to tell the members that prolapse is primarily a postural problem in women…and Sybille helped me through the BRAWL that ensued! In spite of all the “bad press” she tried the posture anyway and for many months (years?) afterward came on this forum to help other women understand the truth of it.

Lots of love to you, Syb, and I am thrilled you are healthy and enjoying life!

Christine

sybilleruth

December 4, 2007 - 3:53pm

Sorry you were a bit under the weather. Hubby was sick all last week - that darn cough the primary symptom and a "pluggy head."

Just finished my walk - everything is still intact and I dare say rarely feel my "deformities." But then Mother Nature's pessary wouldn't allow me to.

I sincerely hope women think twice, perhaps even more before submitting themselves to a hysterectomy. That surgicial procedure opens a new can of worms and I didn't care to go down that road.

Haven't been able to sign onto Uprise. No doubt they still are encouraging women to go under the knife and they will be there as the support group. It's a shame the moderator couldn't point a direction your way. I guess she just wanted to "hang on" to what she had. But then - she has had her major share of physical problems/pain.

Glad to read you are hanging on also. Makes for strong women, don't you think?

sybille

louiseds

December 4, 2007 - 7:18pm

Hi Christine

I was recently trying to think of things to say to an acquaintance of mine who sadly has a hysterectomy booked for mid December.

I have been doing quite a bit of reading recently about the hormonal relationship between the uterus, ovaries and adrenal gland, and how they all rely on each other. We have emailed before about this relationship.

There is not a lot of info in STWW about this relationship, and I am hoping there will be a chapter in the next edition (perish the thought!) specifically about hysterectomy. You have written a lot about the structural reasons why maintaining the uterus is important. This is very important for managing and preventing further prolapse, and as I understand it, is *the* basis for Wholewoman work. But the hormonal reasons seem to be particularly important to me at the moment as I reach menopause, as all women will eventually, so pre-menopausal women need to see their current state of health as setting themselves up for healthy old age, as well as managing day to day currently.

I have been particularly interested in the research into the continuing role of ovaries after hysterectomy, and whether or not it is desirable to keep them, whether or not they will work if they are left, and for how long, the role of the postmenopause ovary in maintaining androgen production and not overloading the adrenal system which would otherwise have to produce more. Also the role of androgens in sexual attractiveness, particularly for older women who can feel less attractive. Yes, castration lessens the production of pheromones that send female signals out to males. I think I have this right. It is all so confusing. So yes, we are not attractive to men without enough androgen production. Perhaps that is why HRT is so popular. It helps women to *be* attractive.

Apparently premenopausal women having full castration have to have HRT to stop the sudden changes in hormone production that will produce devastating menopause symptoms, but as many women find it unsustainable, they stop after a few years, and suffer the full consequences of the secondary effects of menopause, like the cardiovascular disease risk, many years before they would normally. There are also factors like loss of function of remaining ovaries, elective removal of ovaries to prevent further surgery in case of ovarian cancer (unnecessary).

All women who 'need' hysterectomy do not have prolapse as the primary reason, and I am not sure about my acquaintance at this stage, maybe fibroids? I am thinking that they may not have even considered the possibility of prolapse as a result of hysterectomy, nor these hormone interactions, which would only reinforce your anti-hysterectomy stance. Maybe these other reasons for not having hysterectomy are already detailed in another book, but it would be great to have them all in one place, no matter why the woman was considering hysterectomy.

Is there another book detailing the hormonal interactions between these organs? I need to understand this better.

Cheers

Louise

Christine

December 5, 2007 - 10:58am

Hi Louise,

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this. I have been wanting to address Nancy, ihearted, Anita and so many others regarding the importance of managing prolapse non-surgically. I empathize with the bowel and bladder difficulties as well as the bulging organs, but if there is a way to reduce symptoms without reconstructive surgery women are so much better off in the long run. One look at hystersisters (www.hystersisters.com) will reveal that the post-operative problems women must cope with - and it is A LOT of women - are far more harrowing than anything we are experiencing. There are women who go fifteen and twenty years with no apparent problems, but it seems like eventually almost all women begin to have issues serious enough to require a second surgery. And there is PLENTY of evidence that second, third and fourth operations do not improve their conditions. As I have said before, post-surgery prolapse is a world apart from what we are dealing with here.

Elizabeth Plourde has written a good book, Your Guide to Hysterectomy, Ovary Removal, and Hormone Replacement (2001), but I don't know how current the information is at this point.

I will tell you that I'm working on a library for wholewoman where the best of the medical literature will be easily accessible. That's part of the changes planned for Spring '08.

I've been personally experiencing the drastic hormonal shifts I was sure could be avoided with a healthy lifestyle, and perhaps I could've avoided them if I had paid more attention to my stress level. I had no idea how important the adrenal glands are at this time in life, nor the critical role a little bit of testosterone plays in the female body! It not only maintains the skin of our vulva, but also our tolerance for exercise and an overall sense of strength and well-being. The good news is, I think this is very treatable.

Anyway, we need ongoing conversations on this subject as well as many more resources.

Thanks for writing!

Christine

ATS

December 5, 2007 - 2:07pm

I am hanging in there (so to speak!) and not thinking about the surgical path. There are days when it is soo uncomfortable that I don't know what to think. I have visited and even registered (before I came here) with the site you talk about and I have read many heart wrenching stories from ladies suffering the consequences of surgery. There is no way on this earth I would want mesh inserted in to my most private parts and is not something I would EVER consider. Now this may sound incredibly drastic but if the day came where things were at their worst and I could not live my life due to discomfort or pain from prolapse then maybe things would change. I still do not think I would consider reconstructive surgery as it is just destined for failure but if it works I do think that there is the option of vaginectomy. I know this is only performed on elderly ladies who no longer wish to have a sexual relationship or who are too weak to undergo reconstruction but with what I know now I would rather sew it all up and keep it inside than undergo numerous surgeries which would probably leave me in chronic pain. This is something I hope I would not have to think about seriously but it does cross my mind as a last resort. Maybe I am wrong about this surgery and it has its own complications - I don't know.

Maybe I have said too much here and am about to be blasted for my thoughts but there they are.

A

AnneH

December 5, 2007 - 3:18pm

Christine I have been wanting to say that I have been reading Hystersisters but was not sure you wanted to state the name of another website in any kind of negative light so I haven't made the post, but now that you brought it up I will add my two cents. Well, I don't have anything negative to say about the site itself but the stories that fill that site are horrendous.

There is divorce because of inability to have sex, there is severe, disabling pain, there are case after case after case of serial surgeries with absolutely NO end to the suffering. Mesh erosion. Incontinence. Mandatory self catheterization. Foreshortened vaginas. Bladder fix causing rectocyle. Doctors' and husbands' insensitivity and ignorance. On and on and on the parade of iatrogenic nightmares. The intense suffering of these women who try to hide it from the people in their lives, my god, that site should be required reading for all teenage girls as a warning. I have gotten private mail from some of these women telling me they wish to God they had never had their surgeries. Thank goodness I did a lot of reading over there before I had my hysterectomy. I still may need it one day; if I ever have to remove my uterus because of cancer I will be happy to have hystersisters for support. But for now the biggest service they did for me was to convince me NOT to have a hysterectomy... God bless them.

Christine

December 5, 2007 - 4:10pm

Hi Anita and Anne,

Prolapse is a very difficult issue and there’s no blasting here…not even of the misguided flesh-eaters amongst us (makes little joke :-)

You bring up a very important point and one we hear regularly from our membership:

“Maybe if my prolapse gets really bad I’ll have surgery in the future.”

First of all, I totally understand the thought process, as my prolapse got really bad several months ago with my (hopefully) last period, and the headline CHRISTINE HAS RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY, leapt depressingly into my mind. Thank goodness my cervix retreated to baseline by the end of my copious bleed and once again I found the prospect of surgery completely intolerable.

Although many of us consider it on our worst days, I believe keeping a door in our mind open to surgery may sap our resolve a bit and perhaps even make us slightly less committed to managing our condition on a day-to-day basis. I’ve often thought that if our doctors sat us down, held our hand, and told us very matter-of-factly that only we, alone, could manage prolapse women would be all the better for it.

My pelvic interior was changed drastically when the fascia around my bladder was sutured to my abdominal wall. My front vaginal wall was pulled forward and imagine how astonishing it was to find vaginal secretions and menstrual blood now landing on the front crotch seam of my underwear instead of the middle where it had been since puberty! Consequently, my uterus fell deep into the “cul-de-sac” where it remains to this day. The good news is it lies firmly against the back wall, preventing both enterocele and rectocele. The bad news is it is a formidable bulge that I have had to learn to live with.

BTW…there is now overwhelming evidence that bladder neck “pin up” operations such as the Burch and MMK cause immediate and profound uterine prolapse. It is high time to bring litigation against doctors who do not adequately inform women of these risks.

One of the most important questions regarding the WW approach to prolapse remains: why can some women, even women like me with severe, surgically induced prolapse, draw the uterus up by changing the shape of our spine? I started this work about seven years before menopause. I do believe the sooner we begin the postural work the better, but does it make a difference if we begin in our forties as opposed to our sixties? Will Goldfinch and Bling be able to affect their conditions enough to make that critical difference? And if not, WHY not? A cervix tucked just inside the labia is a whole different situation than one externalized.

To respond to your question about vaginaectomy (colpectomy), it is a horrible operation. They cannot just sew the labia shut, but must close the opening at the pelvic floor. This results in a high percentage of subsequent urinary incontinence because the tightening and scarring of the musculature draws the urethra backward and obliterates its protective angle.

The truth is there is not one “pelvic floor” surgery that does not negatively affect the pelvic interior as a whole. This certainly includes episiotomy, which the heartbreak stories we constantly hear from new mothers attest to.

That being the case, the logical thing to do is to TAKE CARE OF WHAT WE HAVE. If we develop uterine or cervical cancer then surgery makes sense, but statistically speaking that will be a very tiny fraction of us. And the appropriate response from the rest is to lovingly support those women, just like we would someone with cancer of the colon or breast. This does not mean we should leave our mind’s door open to prolapse surgery, however. It is like the yogis who are always asked to unravel the mysteries of death. A classic yogic response is, “We do not concern ourselves with death.”

Hope this helps!

Christine

goldfinch1

December 6, 2007 - 6:53pm

Christine - I read your post with much interest. I see myself as one of the few older women who have joined this forum in the last 6 months. My uterine prolapse did not appear until I was 58 1/2 year old (I just turned 59 yesterday). For the past 6 months I have read both of your books, have integrated the posture into my daily life while standing and sitting, do not lift my 2 year old grandchild anymore, and don't ever lift anything else that is heavy. I never push while eliminating, and have adjusted my diet even though before this happened I rarely ever ate meat and concentrated mainly on fruits and vegetables. I have given up wearing any clothing that is constricting and have been going to bed earlier every night to get more rest.

After all of that for about 6 months, my prolapse has not gotten any better, but it has not gotten any worse either.

My questions to you are, in your opinion, can someone MY age 1) reverse the condition to a point where it has 'improved' (not gone away but maybe gone back UP a little) and 2) can I have hope that, with continuing to follow the Whole Woman way of living, the condition will stabilize and not get any worse?

Obviously you don't have a crystal ball, and every woman is different. I guess my questions really revolve around my age and what is possible or probable for someone like me to expect. I await your answer a little nervously.......Thank you.

Goldfinch

Christine

December 7, 2007 - 11:19am

Dear Goldfinch,

I have every confidence your condition will stabilize for the rest of your life as long as you gently live in this whole woman way. This work is beneficial for our entire body, so what do you have to lose?

I don’t know how much reversal you will eventually experience, but I hope it is some – enough for you to become comfortable once again. It’s not just the uterus/bladder/rectum we are trying to mobilize – really, they are just innocent bystanders – but rather their outer coverings that thicken and turn into “ligaments”, ultimately connecting to bone and muscle as well as the total fascial body stocking.

I’m wondering if your pessary will eventually cause some bulging of the vaginal walls – enough to hold your cervix a bit higher. I also think further steps may be in order to help lift your uterus forward. Have you tried the firebreathing? It’s really very effective and you only have to do a few breaths to feel the difference. Try it in the morning before you’ve eaten anything. Also, walk every morning while making large movements with your arms…circle them or better yet make “eagle wings” like you are strongly flying. This mobilizes the large and important fascial sheath beneath the back muscles, which is ultimately connected to your pelvic interior! The third thing you can try is to pack your vagina at night with two or three large, organic cotton balls. This pushes the uterus up and forward and passively supports it there for several hours. They are easily expelled in the a.m. and you may find your cervix a bit higher as a result.

As you know, Goldfinch, when you bend forward at the waist or get down on hands and knees your uterus falls completely forward into the hollow of your lower belly and you have no prolapse! The task of the human female body is to hold the pelvic interior in this exact same configuration while standing! Just for fun, spend some time on hands and knees and also practice forward bends several times a day. When my cervix is bugging me I must do this until it shifts up a bit…and it always does! But I have to remember to create my natural anatomy throughout the day…this is the work! At this point it is never difficult or trying, but rather feels so good and invigorating to live in my natural shape. I don’t have to try to push or pull anything this way or that. It’s just a stretching into the entirety of my self and I know it when I’m there.

Please remember that it took years for your body to develop prolapse and it will take time to tighten all the spokes of the wheel once again.

I have no way of knowing if you will be able to affect your prolapse “enough”…but at 59 years young, I’m betting on you!

Christine

goldfinch1

December 7, 2007 - 12:58pm

Dear Christine:
I am going to print out your reply and tape it up at home so that I can read it daily. Your suggestions are gentle ones that I feel I can manage on a daily basis, and your confidence in my ability to live successfully with my prolapse makes me feel stronger already.

I have never used a pessary, (Bling just started using one), and have decided to put that option on the back shelf for now. However, the cotton balls sound like a wonderful idea for night time that I will try as soon as I find the organic ones.

My whole life I have always met Life's challenges that came my way HEAD ON. I am not going to shy away from this challenge or try to take the 'easy' way out by having surgery. And for this challenge, I have you and the rest of the loving and supportive women here to hold me up when I feel myself starting to fall.

Thank you again for your words of encouragement and also for the POP management suggestions. I feel much better now.

Goldfinch

Christine

December 7, 2007 - 1:17pm

I'm so glad you feel empowered. Sorry...yes, it was Bling who has the new pessary. If you are going to try the cotton balls, make sure they are organic (available at health food stores) and dampen them slightly for insertion.

It is our combined experience making this vital revolution in women's health. Thank you so much for being here!

goldfinch1

December 7, 2007 - 4:51pm

You are very welcome - it is my privilege.

Goldfinch

goldfinch1

June 7, 2008 - 9:13am

Christine:

Six months ago, I wrote to you (see my post below 'Christine, will I see results?'). It had been 6 months that day since I had developed my uterine prolapse. Your reply, entitled 'Results', had every confidence in me that if I followed your teachings using the posture and exercise to guide my body, that I would ultimately see improvement.

Now, another 6 months later, I want to tell you thank you, thank you, Thank You!!! I have turned a corner, and can feel such a difference. I never did use a pessary, not even the sponge which I tried once and it didn't work for me. Being in posture has made ALL the difference in my life. Getting the right chair at work (quite by accident since everyone has to have matching chairs) has enabled me to stay in posture all day while I'm sitting at my computer. My back no longer aches, and I find myself getting into posture no matter what I'm doing during the day. It's as if my body has adjusted to the POP and also to my new posture. Everything seems to have settled in. Maybe, as you mentioned in your post, I have 'tightened the spokes of the wheel' enough to finally feel the improvment. I hope so.

If I feel this much better now, I am hoping to have even more results during the year ahead. As you said, it took years for my body to develop prolapse (I was 58 1/2 when it appeared). It has taken a year for me to improve, but I know my improvement only happened because I was lucky enough to find this website and to learn from all of the wonderful members here.

I hope that my improvement gives encouragement to new members. The Whole Woman way of living is a life long commitment, and I just wish I had known about it many years ago.

Christine, you ended your post with the words "I'm betting on you!" I'm so happy to say you were right! Thank you for having faith in me and for being there when I needed encouragement.

And thank you forever for all that you do here,

Goldfinch

"Life is not holding a good hand; Life is playing a poor hand well'

Christine

June 7, 2008 - 11:22am

Dear Goldfinch,

Thank you so very much - you dear heart! - for posting about your progress. We are all holding each other aloft and hearing of each others' success is essential to the whole.

Viva La Revolución!!

Love,

Christine

sybilleruth

April 4, 2013 - 10:29pm

Hi Christine, It has been 13 years and still no surgery. Maintain the posture the entire time. Do just about everything. Even speed walking. Hope you are doing well. Oh....am fully retired and way too busy.

Surviving60

April 5, 2013 - 7:49am

Hi Sybille! Thank you so much for posting and also for reviving this wonderful discussion thread! We haven't met because I'm a newbie of barely three years here. Anyone who was this instrumental in the early days of WW gets a dozen roses from me! Thank you SOO much. - Surviving

Christine

April 5, 2013 - 11:10am

Thank you again, dear Sybille! I send you roses as well. So glad to hear you are a whole, healthy, retired woman enjoying her golden years. I'm certain you will never develop hip joint issues, as WW posture is protective of the hips as well. Thank you with all my heart.

This summer is the 10th anniversary of Saving the Whole Woman and I so want to come out with a third edition. Trying my hardest to make headway on Saving Your Hips - I'm way too busy too, but so love my work.

With gratitude,

Christine

louiseds

April 6, 2013 - 2:50am

Wonderful news! This fills me with further hope for my own older years! :-)

Thanks for this little update. We love hearing from Members who have not posted for a long time.

Louise