Androgens, oestrogen and the way we walk

Submitted by louiseds on November 30, 2007 - 8:10am
Body: 

Hi All

Been doing some reading about menopause and came across some info about how the lowering of oestrogen levels up to menopause allows the androgen effects to dominate after menopause, leading to a thickening of the waistline, thicker body hair and the development of facial hair. This is why female libido is not directly affected by menopause; it is maintained by testosterone, which does not decrease straight after menopause.

I have heard in the past anecdotally that a postmenopause woman's body and an equivalent-aged man's body get more alike as the years go by, except for the different genitals. I am wondering if that extends to a woman's musculo-skeletal system becoming more masculinised as well. The logical extension of this is that a woman's lumbar curve may lessen as oestrogen levels fall. If this is the case, then I can see that a woman's pelvis may not tilt forward in the same way after menopause. This may explain why women often experience a worsening of prolapse after menopause, and why older women's hips do not sway the same way as a younger woman's.

Just a theory. I wonder if there is any truth in it?

Cheers

Louise

Gracemom

November 30, 2007 - 2:18pm

I wonder. I also read recently of a study which found that young woman undergoing surgery for prolapse had less collagen in their pelvic connective tissues than is normal. Maybe having weaker connective tissues also leads to bad posture? I think collagen production may also be hormonally related, so changing hormones could play a factor here too.

Caveat: this is only stuff I've read, I'm not an expert on any of this.

a6a25725

November 30, 2007 - 3:55pm

I can only comment from my own personal appearance but my waist is still smaller than my hips and if my hips aren't stiff from doing a lot of walking climbing up hill they still sway pretty good. The posture has helped me to maintain my lumbar curve. Perhaps these will lessen over time but to date still pretty good.
I think each person has some of these symptoms but not all. My waist has thickened some but I still wear the same size clothes I did 20 years ago and have still maintained the same weight subject to five pounds or so depending on how active I am or if I've over indulged in some good food.
Body hair is non existant except for a small patch of pubic hair around my vagina and a small amount that grows on my legs and under my arms.Tweezers take care of extra facial hair. The hair on my head is not as thick as it was when I was younger but still fairly thick.
These are my observations from a personal view.
Flora

louiseds

November 30, 2007 - 7:12pm

Thanks for your comments Flora and Gracemom. It will be interesting to see what other women come up with. And it will be interesting to see what Christine has to say on this, as we have often shared comments about how much of the 'after normal menopause' information is just wives tales or anecdotal evidence, and how much of it is based on the results of good scientific method.

All women are different, no doubt, as men are all different, but at least here on this Forum we have a group of women who will actually share their own experiences for the benefit of others, without the shackles of prudishness or the embarrassment/discomfort that often comes with discussing these things personally with other women. Using the Forums we can all share what each other has to contribute. IMO, it is a wonderful way of rebuilding the wisdom of women that we have lost with education and mobility that has taken us away from a geographically close extended family network.

Thanks for your contribution.

Cheers

Louise

Christine

November 30, 2007 - 10:17pm

Hi Louise,

According to the studies I found, ovarian production of testosterone does decline during menopause, after which it begins to rise again until reaching pre-menopause levels and then stabilizing into old age. It is my assumption that adrenal production of androgens picks up the slack in healthy women until the ovaries take over once again.

There are appallingly few good studies in this area of women’s health, but it seems more attention is being given here – hopefully we will have more facts available in the near future.

However, from my point of view a lot can be determined by common sense and taking a macroscopic view of things while waiting for the science and the microscopic scrutiny. In this spirit, I find Flora’s testimony very enlightening as well as women living traditional lifestyles, such as America’s famous old crone, Tasha Tudor .

I believe the post-menopausal female body continues to do what it has always done, that is, converting testosterone into estrogens in the peripheral tissues. Estrogen is our most powerful antioxidant and does not completely disappear, but decreases to (perhaps?) pre-pubertal levels. With proper diet and lifestyle, everything should be preserved almost as it was before, a few chin hairs notwithstanding.

I love your perspective on re-gathering women’s wisdom. A work that’s time has come.

Christine

Clonmacnoise

December 2, 2007 - 9:11am

Louise,

What I've noticed is as slow down. I've noticed that for the first time in my life I actually like sitting down. I've noticed that there are certain things I can't do on the yoga floor. I'm developing arthritis in my right hip and my left knee so sometimes I walk with a limp. I'm sure this is a result of being stripped of a lot of my estrogen. I always think of estrogen as the dragon at the gate. The dragon has become a dog and hopefully won't turn into a mouse anytime soon!

I still put in a full day at work on my feet, and fill the days with a million activities after work. I'm more cerebral than ever before and writing a new gentler novel than the one before, but a little forgetful and sometimes can't put a name to a child as quickly as I once did. I attribute that to a freedom I never allowed myself to have before - not hormones.

I put on 35 pounds with menopause and am taking the pounds off slowly. I wear about a 12 now and an 8 at best older weight, so I have more to lose. My waist is much smaller than my hips but it's always been that way. I'm a classic mesomorph - kind of proportioned and powerful - big hands, big head, big feet, short legs, long arms - sounds really ugly doesn't it?

I think the changes you will come to see are small. The actual menopause may drive you nuts, but when all is said and done, and the storm is over and the damage toll taken, I think you'll see that you're still you, and aside from a little tarnish, you're OK.

I liken it to a tunnel. It's damn dark in the tunnel, but when you emerge, the sun is warm and the light is beautiful, and when you pat yourself down, it's still a green light!

Blessings!

Change what you can change; be happy with what you cannot.

louiseds

December 2, 2007 - 7:14pm

Hi Judy

Thanks for those comments. You do make me laugh, and inspire me to keep being me, not that I have ever lusted to be somebody else.

No you don't sound ugly at all. I know you are just you. Love your philosophy on what happens at the end of the storm. I cannot see that any enormous storms are happening, just the odd stormy squall that always passes.

You have no idea how reassuring it is to have you and all the other women on this Forum who have experienced menopause, dissolving my anxieties, and disempowering the monster before me. I figure I could be waving goodbye to an old friend by the time it is all over. I will be so familiar with the story, and give thanks how lucky I am to have you all.

Cheers

Louise

Clonmacnoise

December 2, 2007 - 8:09pm

Louise,

Quite frankly, I feel better now than I have in years. Once the damned thing is done with you, and you come down off the cross, you actually feel better and better every day. It's been years since I've enjoyed a Christmas season. This year I'm an elf, and having a great time doing surprise things for the people I love.

My grandson had surgery on Friday to correct a botched circumcision, and I took a big basket of little toys, cookies and tea to their house and a note to my Molly which reminded her that life can be tough, but that she's doing a great job and how much I love her. A year ago, I couldn't have done that. I was too busy staring at the floor and dying inside.

Now that I've risen, I'm ready go. I feel like an eight cylinder engine with overdrive!

By the Grace of God, Louise, you'll fly through this thing without skipping a beat. Drink lots of green tea and soy milk and keep busy - go hug a lamb - if not for you, for me.

Judy

Change what you can change; be happy with what you cannot.

a6a25725

December 2, 2007 - 9:49pm

Hi Louise,
Your post on this subject piqued my curiosity and I have been observing other older women as discreetly as I can. My husband is in a care home so I have a captive audience to observe. From what I have been able to observe discreetly is that all these women still seem to have waists that are smaller than their hips even the 100 year old lady in a wheel chair.
I guess I wasn't as discreet as I thought as one of the ladies told me it was rude to stare at others and showed bad manners. I apologized and took myself away very red faced.
Just another observation on my part. Red face and all.
Regards,
Flora.

louiseds

December 2, 2007 - 11:27pm

Hi Flora

Interesting observation Flora. I have myself observed little old ladies at my Mum's Home. You are right. They do all have waists. That may be because they are all pretty lean. I have a feeling that overweight and obesity doesn't set us up for living long enough to move into a nursing home, so these people are the survivors! There are not many men still alive of my Mum's age, but I suspect they too could be pretty lean on the whole.

I think the comment about thickening waistlines is more about what happens at menopause and directly after, perhaps as a result of the weight gain that so many women describe and manifest. I think I have read it in the context of "women tend to begin carrying extra fat around the middle instead of around the hips and thighs." Again, it was probably in the context of women carrying weight around the middle being more prone to cardiovascular disease, and carrying weight on the hips being much less of a risk.

Of course, low oestrogens at menopause are blamed for the increase in cardiovacular disease in postmenopausal women, which IMHO is one of the reasons why there is such a push for HRT. If postmenopausal women can be prevented from having heart attacks and strokes it keeps public hospital beds free, the nation's health costs down, and keeps people mobile, apart from the fact that they can have more healthy old age and retain their independence for longer. It all sounds very rosey, doesn't it? I'm not so sure. I have a feeling it is not quite as simple as that.

As for the lady who was worried about you staring, I hope I would be quick-witted enough to say, "I was just admiring your figure. How do you do it?" But I think I would have been taken aback like you were!

Cheers

Louise