sad and discouraged-kegels not helping?!

I have read many many times on this forum that overdoing the Kegels can actually make the muscles tired and some ladies have reported a worsening of their symptoms. Perhaps you need to slow down and do less. Just a few strong ones per day may make a difference. It is very disheartening when these things we do to make a difference do not help. I was praying when I arrived here that my prolapses would not worsen but they have and I am not sure how much worse they are going to get and I too have moments of pure panic over it all.

Do not not apologise for feeling that you are not being supportive, you are not expected to be. You are having a hard time dealing with your own issues right now and need to work through them. I have days where I try to help others and days where I just crumble emotionally and need help. I don't think I have ever reached a good place since discovery of my prolapse and I fear for my future with this and just how much I can take but sometimes you really have to just think about today and getting through today.

Anita

My PT told me that too many Kegels will tire out the muscle and she was right (I was doing hundreds a day and it was soooooooo much worse for it) I reduced this to 20 a day or less (10 fast 10 slow) and it was so much better...

Remember that if you do ten slow holds - if you hold for 5 secs - you must release and relax for 10secs and... If you find the muscle tires - do NO more until the next day...

Just try 10 1 sec holds a day then if that is fine 10 x 2 sec holds and so on...

This will aid your muscle to become stronger - and will not tire it out and make it lax

Remember also that Kegels do not do much for Prolapse on the whole - They help incontinence issues. My prolapse will not be fixed by Kegels alone - Posture will help this

:-)

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Thing is - 60 a day for a very tired muscle would be like us weight lifting tons at a time...

60 a day doesnt seem many BUT - your muscle could be very weak and need working up to that... I would personally do 50 tops - But that would be after you have given this muscle a break.

I would do none for at least 1-2 days - Let it relax - When you do weight lifting and lift weight tto build a muscle you are in effects putting stress on that muscle by lifting etc. So if you think about it in weight lifting you are damaging a muscle to build it...

This is not weight lifting and you MUST let the muscle relax and regroup itself before putting more strain on it (I used to weight train and would only do that every OTHER day tops - to let the muscle revive in between)

So - give it a rest for a couple of day s- Nothing bad will happen - If anything after a couple of days you may find you feel a helluva lot better

Then if you feel the need to do kegels (Which really are not the be all and fix all of prolapse unfortunately) Then do just 5 on day1... relax - Let the muscle get used to its new regime

Day2 do 6

There is no reason to rush this - Really less is more to some things :-)

If you do not suffer incontinence then i would do say working up to 10 slow holds and 10 fast twitch (always relaxing for at least a minute between slow holds and the fast twitch is fast lol so - thats that)

See how it goes - I saw my PT a few months after she told me that less is more - And i had to tell her she was an angel and i felt sooooooooooooooooooo much better for not killing myself with kegels

:-)

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

It took me ages to understand the posture. I read and re-read the description on the home page and just did what I thought was it. I then watched Christine demonstrate it in the DVD and I was doing it right. I still get upper back ache and my lower back can get quite painful at times. I found it easiest when Louise explained it as lifting your chest up and almost pushing your boobs out just remembering not to pull in your tummy and letting it relax. I then kind of stick my bum out as well - not a pretty picture but that's how I got it in the end. Keep your shoulders down and chin tucked in slightly. I ALWAYS sit up straight now and would find it strange not to. As soon as I slump I feel it and think "oh **** my organs!"

Try doing 30 kegels a day and see how you go.

I know how you feel, in the beginning we want someone to take our hand and guide us through.

Hang in there.

Anita

They always assume we pee outrselves every two minutes - I leaked slowly back then but sneezed and was no leaks - So not everything is cast in stone...

You will be fine - It is just like cooking...

Sometimes you hafta adjust the mixture to your tastes - And kegels can only do a very little - Whearas posture can do a whole lot

So.... Adjust the kegels to what stops you from any leaking - And live live live your life in posture and having fun fun funnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

:-)

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

I haven't read the posture description in the book I just watched it on the DVD and also read up on it here. I do have the book as well but like you I like visuals. I am so hoping that Christine will bring some exercise DVD's out soon.

As for the frozen food I know it is not good but its just easy. I will have to dig out the cookbooks again and start making things from scratch. My kids ate so healthy when they were being weaned up until their first year and then slowly I started with the frozen food.

Sometimes its just a case of having the time. My daughter is ill at the moment and she had a very tearful hour earlier at the same time I should have been making dinner and we ended up with cheese on toast for something quick. I agree whole, fresh, organic food would make such a difference not just for me but for the whole family.

I've just spent the last 20 minutes trying to convince my daughter to take her medicine but I ended up having to pin her down. You would think I was trying to give her poison! She has had such a high temperature that I am just trying to keep on top of it plus I think she has a really sore throat. The joys of parenthood.

Anita

I'm all for a couple of kegels a day, to keep the muscles in good shape. especially after childbirth when they do get stretched out. and for women who suffer incontinence, kegels can really be helpful in controlling it (that's stress incontinence, for urge incontinence, kegels are useless).

as a PT student, we were taught that 'women with prolapse are usually incontinent' and so that's probably why your PT assumed you would be. I learned very little about prolapse, it mostly boiled down to 'little old ladies in nursing homes' and 'kegels' and variations of that (ie, e-stim, resistence training, etc)

now, as a woman with a POP, I can tell you that for myself and many other women, kegels don't do a blessed thing in terms of reversing a prolapse. nothing. zip. nada. and this is why:

the muscles you are exercising when you do a kegel were not designed to support your pelvis organs from below. they are not, contrary to popular belief, a floor. so work 'em all you want and you will increase strength of contraction, but you will not be able to walk around all day long maintaining a contraction and holding in your organs. it just doesn't work that way.
otoh, the posture here enables you to tilt your pelvis, thus shifting those organs from resting on the 'pelvic floor' (really a hole) to resting above the pubic symphysis, which is a bone. nice solid bone. now, in this position, your pelvic floor is really a door, or a wall, if you will, and not only that, but because your spine is elongated that way, the muscles are in an elongated position, which keeps them tightly closed. think of a rubber band, if you pull on the ends, the sides stay together. if you relax the ends, the sides gape.

if only kegels were the answer.....it would be so much easier that way. the inconvenient truth (to borrow a phrase) is that this condition is not easily reversible. I think most of us will live with this for the rest of our lives. its not a matter of kegels until its cured and that's it, I know that for me, its a lifestyle change. when I fall off the wagon and start slumping, or get lazy about diet/exercise, my prolapse becomes more pronounced. and we're all human, so yes, there are times when we resort to frozen prepared foods and don't make the time to firebreath. that's life. the good news is that the human body is so resilient, and you always have tomorrow to start again.

I'm not saying not do to kegels, just go slowly and pay attention to how you feel. some have found them helpful, some detrimental. I think there is no 'right' and 'only' way to manage prolapse. you are the only expert on your body.

I don't know what to tell you. at some point, you'll either feel you're gaining enough from it to make it worth your while or not.

about the tight deep lateral muscles....again I really don't know. off hand, I'm not sure which muscles she means. christine talks about the deep muscles of the pelvic/hip girdle in detail in the book, where they are, what they do, how they relate to posture and prolapse. I think its in the book anyway, either that or buried in some old posts here.
what's your PT's take on it? work on it how? and to accomplish what?

for example....a long while ago I worked with a little girl who had spastic diplegia. so her legs were all tight and she couldn't control them all that well. to stretch her out to 'normal' muscle flexibility would've taken away the little bit of stability she had. what I mean is, she'd stand on her tippy toes with her hips turned in so that her knees were touching each other. didn't look very pretty, but it held her up. stretch out those muscles and straighten those legs and she'd collapse. now, she had cerebral palsy, so we had to work with what she had. ostensibly, you have normal muscle control. so in theory, to stretch a tight muscle is great, but you have to then incorporate the newfound flexibility or you will go right back to where you started, make any sense whatsoever? if she doesn't know why you're tight there, or how its related to your current situation, why stretch/massage for treatment's sake?
now, if those muscles are tight, and holding you back from accomplishing a better posture, THEN we have something to talk about. but I wouldn't stretch/massage without doing some very active and specific exercise alongside it. and posture, posture, posture.

the measuring input/output of pee always seemed curious to me. don't we lose fluids to sweat and feces as well? if you wanted to know if you were fully emptying your bladder, there are better ways of finding that out (ie, ultrasound before and after urinating).

first let me say that your dh is a smart guy. In all likelihood the fact that your legs turn in and that those muscles are tight are related. its a chicken-ant-the-egg type of thing, who knows which happened first. turned in legs will allow certain muscles to shorten which in turn makes it harder to keep the legs straight, etc etc. and we humans are very energy effecient, so if the muscles are tight, the legs will turn in.

I'm not sure what 'overtoned' muscles are. sounds like a lay term rather than a clinical one, not sure what she was trying to say.

most PT's are not given the understanding of posture, anatomy and prolapse the way christine's work explains it. My hunch is that all most PT's know when they hear 'prolapse' is massage (and variations thereof) and strengthening (ie kegels). this doesn't mean they are 'bad therapists', just lacking experience and education in this area.
so is PT worthwhile?
well, if there is a physical or neurological barrier to your ability to achieve/maintain the posture or do the ballet workout, it is possible that PT can help you work on those issue. for example, if after childbirth a woman sustains some nerve damage in the pelvic area (say due to traction or compression) a PT might use electic stimulation of the muscles to prevent atrophy until the nerve function returns. however, in the absence of nerve damage, I highly doubt that e-stim is useful.
or if a person had some other trauma to the hip or spine, a PT could be very helpful in terms of regaining proper alignment and function.
personally, from my standpoint (as someone who's been managing prolapse with this program and as a PT -disclaimer: I did not have extensive orthopedic experience) PT is not terribly useful for reversing POP.

I know some have found it to be useful, and I wonder how much of that is the placebo effect - and I am all for placebo! whatever works, you know? but each person will do the cost/benefit ratio for themselves. I don't think PT will hurt, as long as you are smart and paying attention. overkegeling isn't necessarily a good thing either.