Pelvic organ prolapse question???

Hi Tarra,

From our perspective this is not an autoimmune disease but rather something countless women have been set up for by life-long customs of modern culture. As you can see, it is a lot of women.

We are stabilizing and reversing damage to the pelvic organ support system by moving the organs forward where they have fallen back from their natural positions in the hollow of the rounded lower belly. What it amounts to is a new way of holding your body while both walking and sitting. Read through the FAQs and call back here with any questions.

There are very few true autoimmune diseases, but that label gets used for many conditions for which there are no other answers. This is the first I have heard of prolapse being labeled an autoimmune disease, a new twist that doesn’t surprise me in the least. The mesh surgeries are terrible no matter what the status of your immune system.

Welcome to wholewoman!

Christine

I am confused. Do you know already that you have an autoimmune disease?
You can manage your prolapse this way- although I don't remember many stories where the cervix was hanging out of a woman with a two year old.....I imagine that would be hard to do if you have a cystocele and rectocele in the way. I suggest getting the book from the wholewoman store and starting the posture as soon as you can. Glad you finally found us.
oh and if you use the search function you can put in pessary and get a ton of information- like the different types and how to get them in and out with out pain.

Hi Poetrymom

Now you have explained better what the doctor did I think I can see why your cervix was showing *as you stood up*.

I am taking myself back to when I first made an appointment with the gynaecologist where I was formally diagnosed with rectocele, cystocele and and a degree of uterine prolapse. If I was sitting in a chair 'normally' I could feel my organs as pressing on my vulva and lower vagina. If I stand straight up from sitting, keeping my tummy in and going straight into standing with my butt tucked under, as I did for about 40 years, all my organs move down further because of the abdominal bracing that I have to do to actually get up. Doing this just now I could also feel urine leaking a little bit at the same time. This creates pressure in my abdomen (intraabdominal pressure) and pushes my pelvic organs down further into my vagina and onto my vulva which is, of course open to the world. It is indeed possible that my cervix would protrude if I let it. This would be worsened if the chair was really low, and further worsened if my trousers were very fitted.

However, I now only wear loose, stretchy clothes around my abdomen and waist. Ideally, I now sit erect and tall, and away from the chair back, maintaining my lumbar curve, belly loose, with my shoulders relaxed and sitting tall with prominent breasts. When I rise to standing I move my feet apart, lean right forward from the hips (not the waist) to allow my organs to fall forward and my belly to go between my knees with my lumbar curve in place. My centre of gravity moves forward and lifts my butt off the seat then I just straighten my hips, knees and ankles all at the same time to stand in Wholewoman Posture, which is the same as sitting, except that the hip joints are straightened out instead of flexed, and my knees are soft (not locked).

Even though my cervix sits about 1cm inside the introitus all the time, there is no way I can make my pelvic organs bulge my perineum or my cervix come out while rising to standing with this method, even though I can make my cervix come out by slouching on the toilet and craning my head forward to see my vulva. To do this I have to squash my belly with my boobs and chest and tighten my tummy muscles. This produces the same intraabdominal pressure and out she peeps, just like yours!! ;-)

Well at least I know that I have 3rd degree now!

The good news is that it will at best, go away by itself, or at worst, make its presence known much less often, *with your active help*.

All you need to do is to change your posture so that your pelvic organs move forward onto your pubic bone, and are no longer resting on your pelvic floor. When you do this your pelvic floor actually tightens like a drum skin, and keeps your organs forward. However, the mechanism for this is quite complex so I won't even try to describe it here. You might be able to find it in one of Christine's blog posts, but there is a very good description of the mechanism in Saving the Whole Woman, second edition. You won't find this described in any books about the pelvic floor ... yet. You will benefit greatly from this book to fully understand this work. Pelvic floor exercises don't have much of a part to play, except in reducing stress incontinence and ensuring that your pelvic floor muscles are active enough for enhancing sexual activities. :-)

On the whole (and in my very humble opinion) gynaecologists do not have a very good understanding of prolapsed pelvic organs, which is why often their surgical procedures
ultimately fail, to the lifetime detriment of the woman concerned. Ironic, isn't it?

Hope this fills in some gaps in your understanding of body mechanics.

These doctors seem to have thrown a lot of figures at you from your test results. This doesn't mean that they have anything at all to do with your prolapses. They certainly don't mean anything to me.

There is a thing called a bell curve, aka normal distribution curve, which illustrates how the values of any sort of statistic vary between individual cases. It applies as well to height charts for any given age of child as it does to frequency of clouds in the sky. Have a look at any school statistics text book for an explanation. It also applies to many pathology tests. You can be a distance away from normal and not have a disease. What I think they are looking for is particular groups of tests that exist abnormalities. From the sounds of things they haven't found any yet.

As Christine mentioned there are many medical conditions that are described as autoimmune conditions. There are some that definitely are, but others that are only described as autoimmune diseases because they don't fit any other class of disease. The immune system does weird things, and even doctors still don't understand its workings very well. Even they admit that.

If you do indeed have an autoimmune disease independent of POP, I hope they are able to pinpoint it and treat it. I cannot see how POP and autoimmune disease could be connected, unless there is some autoimmune disease that destroys the fascia that encloses every organ and muscle in your body, cos that is all that prolapse is caused by, a breakdown/damage to the endopelvic fascia.

You don't say how old you are. If it is possible that you are in perimenopause, body aches and pains can become an everyday occurrence. I have had body aches and pains for many years, which have worsened periodically, and are definitely worse as my period approaches. I am now 55. I have had many tests and nothing has come up positive. I have found that various forms of stretching have helped, massage, Bowen Technique, Feldenkrais, exercises etc. Some have been more helpful than others. I have just been told by a podiatrist that my right leg is 1cm shorter than my left, which has implications for my gait and how I use my upper body as well. I have been walking around with my feet strapped to make my ankles more stable for a couple of days, and it certainly is more comfortable. I may get orthotics. They will be expensive, and they may work. There are hundreds of causes of aches and pains, some of which are darned hard to diagnose. Some of them are caused by muscle spasm related to stress, and you've just got to work it out for yourself how to alleviate the stress and get the muscles working properly again.

Don't give up. It's not the end of the world. Get to work on Wholewoman techniques to get your prolapses organised and you may find this stress evaporating and your whole body feeling better. This is something you can do for yourself, and not be at the mercy of the medicos all the time. They may eventually find out something, and they may not.

Cheers

Louise

Yes I am in a similar situation with the autoimmune disease. I had positive ANA for many years, with aches and pains in my muscles and joints, and some neuropathies. All my bloodwork came back normal though except for a high CPK one time when my left leg began to swell up. My swollen leg never did go down; they did all kinds of tests and came up with nothing. However I developed some funny spots on my chest in the meantime, they biopsied those and the pathology report said it was cutaneous scleroderma. So... that's the only hard diagnosis I have and they do not relate it to my swollen leg or long term aches and pains, but somehow.. ha ha.. i think its all related.

Anyhow, nobody suggested that my "possible autoimmune disease" is a reason to delay or reject pelvic surgery. But they have a point actually... if you do have a widespread "collagen vascular disorder" (another doc-speak term for general unspecific autoimmune disease) then it could easily affect any connective-tissue in your body including the pelvic structures.

I would give pessaries another try, try different types! If you have severe, mulitple prolapses, then the doughnut is a likely type; you might be told the only type that will work for you, and yes, they can be painful to insert and remove. I have one, and it's a big OUCH moment when it passes the introitus. I just grin and bear it. I look at it this way... that little ouch is much less painful than the horrors of failed POP surgery, or constant bladder dribbling, or painful intercourse, etc., so I look at it as a small price to pay. Also, get Christine's balms and use them. They feel so good and make the hangy out stuff feel better anyway, if not go back in. :)

Hi AnneH

Bodies do strange things, don't they? I am not at all medically qualified, but I take your point that it is possible that there may be a connection between an autoimmune disorder and POP in her case. Equally, there may not, and like you there doesn't yet seem to be a positive diagnosis autoimmune-wise for Poetrymom.

The point is though, that whatever has caused Poetrymom's POPs, they are still there, and always will be. None of us really knows all the actual causes for POP in our own bodies, though we can take some good, informed guesses. eg Fully-managed first labour with episiotomy and forceps is my prime candidate, and I think marriage-related stress that resulted in a long period of constipation a few years ago was the straw that broke the camel's back, but I do not know what role my adolescent posture played in retroverting my uterus, whether the retroversion of my uterus played an active part, whether my childhood constipation played an active part, etc All we know is that we have them, and in the absence of any personally acceptable alternatives, we have learnt to manage them.

After my doing the little standing up exercise I would think that Poetrymom can make some considerable improvements to her prolapses, no matter what the cause, and prevent worse symptoms by supporting her pelvic organs on her pubic bone, rather than her pelvic floor.

Cheers

Louise