Vaccinations

your dd is wise to be concerned. the hep b thing makes me nuts. they gave it to my dd in the hospital without even bothering to get my consent. but hep b, of all the vaccinations, is one of the most clear cut for me. unless a primary caregiver is hep b pos, I can see no reason to vaccinate a baby for it.

as for the rest of them, your dd will have to do her research and her reading, and make whatever decisions she feels is in her baby's best interest. personally, I weigh the potential risk of the disease (along with the chances of actually contracting said disease) against the risk of the vaccine (along with the actual 'success' rate of the vaccine). so if for example, vax "X" is very effective at preventing disease "X", associated with no ill effects, contains no mercury, and disease "X" is rampant, highly contagious and lethal, I would vacccinate for it.
its rarely that clear though.

I dont so much worry about the autism link as much as I worry about long term effects of injecting formaldahyde into our babies bodies along with live viruses and potentially messing with their undeveloped immune systems. the stuff scares me. Its hard to get unbiased literature on the subject. everything I read is either 'pro' or 'anti' and I feel like I never really know who's got a hidden agenda. I read until my head spins, read some more, meditate on it, and pray I make the right decision.

speaking of vax's though.....what are people's thoughts on the tetanus shot? not for babies, for older kids.

Hi Mae,
I recommend books by Randall Neustaedter. "the vaccine guide" is a bit old, but goes through the diseases one by one and talks about them and the vaccines. I found it very useful. I decided, like gmom, not to address it as one big thing but rather disease by disease. I also decided that we could make up our own decisions aobut timing, and that it didn't need to start at 3 months (they don't do Hep B in the UK).
Needless to say as i got through the diseases I ticked more and more off as "no thank you's"
(in the end, all...)
but it was useful to go through it bit by bit.
and don't let her be pressured by the hospital. she doesn't have to decide anything on day one--the vaxes aren't going anywhere. Long term she'll be affected by where she lives if she does public schools--but most states have a way of opting out.

gmom--tetanus. I still wonder about this. I have read of some really horrible reactions to it, and we haven't done it. also i don't know if you can get it alone anymore--think only DT (in UK at least). But, we decided that if they hurt themselves and were at true risk of it, we'd get the shot at hospital if really really needed. Ledum is homeopathic remedy anti tetanus.

My thing that stresses me out now is whooping cough. be curious what your view of whooping cough is. my stress--1. measles was 10 days x 2 kids and wow was i tired. 3 months? eek! 2. i'm petrified of getting it myself with my pelvis now. but the vax is not one i'm willing to do...but doesn't stop me worrying about it. what's your thought one that one?

I was all for this shot until about two months ago. My husband went to have a physical and was given a tetanus booster. Two days later his armpit swelled up on the side where he got the shot. It was about the size of a large grapefruit and his whole arm was painful to move/touch. The next day he developed flu-like symptoms and then was sick for almost a month. He is really just starting to come around. So, when I took my son for his physical last week(he is almost 11) I said no thank you to the tetanus shot. I will also be skipping it myself. If one of us gets cut we can always get the shot at convenient care.

We did do other vaccinations for both my children(baby is still getting them). However, since we homeschool I am not sure how necessary they really are. They give me a stack of papers each time Raine gets her shots telling me the possible side effects. It is not very comforting.

I know there are a lot of people out there who are doubtful about the value of vaccinations. I am not one of them. All our kids had all the whole program of vaccinations and non of them ever suffered any side effects other than a sore arm/butt for a day. I didn't like the experience of holding them while they had their needles but I felt that it was over all a good thing to do. I have not regretted it, and none of them has ever caught any of the diseases they were vaxed for.

Having said that, there are a lot more needles they have to have these days to be fully vaccinated. I think one of the main advantages of community vaccination is that it produces herd immunity, ie an outbreak will be just an outbreak, rather than an epidemic because 90% of the population is immunised.

Anyway, I know it is swimming against the flow to express this opinion, but it's too bad. I want others to see that vaccination doesn't always cause problems. I think it is up to the individual.

Cheers

Louise

I agree with your comment Louise. I have worked in a school and have seen what problems can be caused by children who do not have vaccinations. Whooping cough spread through our elementary like wildfire. Many of the children that are coming into the states from other countries do not have shots and are bringing diseases with them. Talk with any local school nurse and ask her what she is dealing with. My only concern is that they start the vaccinations so early. I would like to see the CDC and doctors wait till babies are alittle older and immune systems are more developed. Connie

i just think it's so imp't people have the space to decide what is right for their families at their own time--and that's why i hate the immediate after birth pressure!

it's such a hard decision, one i really agonised over the first time. i had piles and piles of research, and brought huge files of info into the doctors to talk it through. they couldn't answer my questions and probably got fed up of someone questioning this so deeply down to each ingredient, so sent me to a the vacc coordinator for our entire area who was very interesting and enlightening!

second time around it was such a relief to have decided already--and all my books and files had been burned in the fire a few weeks before our son's birth, so it made it really easy--i wasn't going to go trawl through it again!

i get asked a lot about this and say that i think the imp't thing is to truly research it, ask lots of questions, and make your own decision. and personally i think there is no "right" decision--children are very badly harmed by vaccines, and children can get very ill and die from illnesses. sometimes i think it's just about where our faith lies... but at the end of the day, we all have decide what is right for our families, and only we can do that.

so good luck to your daughter in making this decision--she's lucky to have such a fabulous mama helping her along the way!

I have a friend who has a daughter with a vaccine related injury -- yep, she's autistic. Doing ok, but it's pretty sad. I know of another. We did full on program with 1st chld. second had a reaction (moderate) to first round, so started questioning. read a great book (can't remember title -- sorry!) really balanced, by an md. recommended a really gentle schedule. I agree that immune systems are too undeveloped to inject all that stuff. our second was partially vacc., 3rd child nothing until tetanus at age 3, when running all around barefoot. he's the healthiest of the 3. There is no need to start so early is my feeling. And, None of ours got the hep b vaccine anyway. Breastmilk is the best immunization, I think. Hold them close, sleep with them to prevent sids, and nurse on cue. If they go into daycare, that brings up other issues because of potential exposure.

I suspect that they start immunisation young because at least then it is started and kids will have some immunity, even if they don't finish the whole course.

Also the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. They are most under the umbrella of the public health system at the time of birth. After they escape hospital some will never begin the program.

Also some parents are drug users, so may be carriers or potential carriers of Hep B. The only way to protect these babies is to get immunisation started. If breastfeeding doesn't continue for long, they have at least had a start. I wonder if a Mom with Hep B would pass it on through breastmilk? Or pass on her own immunity if she has acquired immunity?

Also, once they have started the program their personal details are documented. If they never start ...

There is more to immunisation programs than just protecting your own kids. It is a community problem.

Cheers

Louise

I would like to hear from any women who have been fully vaccinated as adults - particularly nurses...Connie?

I received a full program of vaccines during the early nineties and believe I have never been the same since. I contracted something soon afterward (a parallel was never drawn because there was adequate time between incidents) that was diagnosed as chicken pox, but the doctor said "I'm going to diagnose this as CP, but frankly, I don't know WHAT that is." Some of them were the size of a quarter and I even had them at the base of my skull.

I also broke out twice - maybe four years later - with rashes over my entire body that lasted many days. The lesions were much smaller - but similar and even in my scalp like my earlier "CP"

Ever after - usually when stressed or sick - I get bumps on my body - chest, stomach, arms, legs. These come in ones or twos and often with fatigue. I also now have slight rosacea on my cheeks (face) which has periods of flare. And now I have LS - which I've never been convinced is related - but I do not know.

This is amazing - with the sickness before this present respiratory bug I'm recovering from, a perfect quarter-sized ring-around-the-rosey appeared on my thigh. It was shocking because there was a dark rose-shaped center bump encircled by a perfect red ring. It lasted the usual time the other bumps do - about two days and another three or four days fading away.

This is yet another chronic thing I live with and I must work to keep it at a low simmer in my body - because I know I have POX in my nervous system that expresses itself periodically. I did not have this before the full and mandatory program of vaccinations required to complete nursing school, and my deepest truth tells me there is a correlation.

Christine

Jill Romm (I think is her name)
Dr. Sears- the vaccine book

that is the only thing I can tell you. the dr.sears book is short- broken down into each vaccine- what is in it- what the risks/benefits are and proposes a different schedule if you would like to use it. Most of my anti- vax friends dislike this book- they think it is pro-vaccine. I didn't find it to be pro-vaccine at all- it seemed very neutral and thorough in the presentation of the information.

I understand that vax is a community issue- but only some are. Here is an exampe...Hep B is a blood born virus- here is how you get it: having sex with an infected person without using a condom, sharing drug needles, having a tattoo or body piercing done with dirty tools that were used on someone else who was infected, getting pricked with a needle that has infected blood on it (health care workers can get hepatitis B this way), An infected woman can give hepatitis B to her baby at birth. That is about it- so if you the mom do not have hep B- and you don't think your baby is going to go wild and get a tattoo or something right after birth- well then there is no risk.

As long as a baby is nursing they carry your immunity- I know I was tested for my immunity during my first 2 pregnancies-then as they get older they start growing their own immune system- these things take time.

Read the inserts on these vaxes- the ingredients would make you shudder- formaldehyde, monkey brains, egg, dairy, heavy metals- often kids who do have vax injury are kids who are allergic to the carrier mediums but the mom just doesn't know it yet (another reason to delay- then you can order only those with out the allergens in them).

Another- they like to give everyone the MMR- why poison a little baby with this? well they reason that rubella is known to cause damage to a fetus- So they want me to vaccinate my baby to protect the community against possible brain damage to a possible fetus- because the mother can not be expected to be responsible for the well being of her fetus...that is just goofy.
well for goodness sake- if you plan to get pregnant then have your titers checked for it- do not get pregnant with out the immunization- and don't bother to tell me that things just happen and that women don't mean to get pregnant- it is easy- are you having sex? then go get tested.

Tetanus is not a community issue- you can't pass it to someone else if you get it-

I could go on. Vax is a community issue- but be careful where you draw that line and how you walk it.
Personally I have done some vax on some of my kids- but you better believe that I do it on my time as I see best. I have a big problem with govt or drs. telling me I am required to do something to my child or I am negligent- when that something has not been proven to be safe at all- and in fact that same government has a vaccine injury fund set up to "compensate" parents whose children are killed or injured by those same vaccines- and understand that the fund pays out big every year. Vaccines are mostly safe for most people- you decide how you want to roll the dice.

and my understanding is that they do them early because that is when the disease is most dangerous to the human- after the age of 2 the risk of death from most diseases goes away. so WHooping cough doesn't kill big kids or adults- it kills little babies-

Cristine,
I have received a butt load of immunizations as an adult. Seems like every time I switched jobs the office or school district had a different set of rules about what kind of immunizations their employees needed. Knock on wood, I never had any problem except for a sore arm or butt for a few days. The worst was a few years back how many shots I needed to go overseas. Yellow Fever, DT, and a couple I can't even remember. Still no reactions. My daughter and granddaughters have had the full load of shots and no problems either. My poor mother got a flu shot one year and was hives from head to toe. She never had any food allergies, eggs or chicken, that would have caused the problem so I don't know where it came from. Funny, I get the type of spots and rash you describe too out of the clear blue sky ever since my early 30's. It has gotten some better in the last few years. Hormones? I guess, I blame everything else on hormones I might as well spots too! Wish I knew the answer to so many things, I could quit looking for a job and be a stay-at-home millionare! Connie

Good summary Alemama

Yeah, I inadvertently left out the bit about these diseases killing babies. My babies were born over twenty years ago, when the whole immunisation caution thing was just coming out. If I had my babies now I admit that I may have decided differently.

Come to think of it, if immunisation isn't offered while they are very young and a baby does die, I guess that would open the door for litigation. Funny how doctors and hospitals watching their backs turns into government-sanctioned need for full immunisation at a very early age. Go figure.

L

here in the US there is actually a program that encourages pediatricians to complete vax schedules by age two. I believe this is a self reporting type program where dr's give their stats over to the AAP, which as we all know, is in bed with Big Pharma.
so why by two? because babies are seen frequently by health care providers so they try to get 'em while they can. older children aren't brought in as reliably and predictably. most pediatricians I've spoken to have no problem with the parents dictating the schedule if they feel that the parents are reliable and involved. the 'schedule' like any other public health policy, was designed to protect the weakest (my cynicism aside for a moment) among us, including babies of say, teen moms who are not on top of things. so vax 'em as soon as their born if you can.
but I am a bit offended by having programs foisted upon me. I can, and demand the right, to make these decisions for myself.
In addition, here in the US (don't know about elsewhere) the government protects the pharm companies from vaccine related litigation. its very hard to know who to trust.

so while I agree that (some) vaccine issues are for community benefit, let us not delude ourselves. money is a huge motive here. I, myself got the hep b vax before I began working in a hospital, but I was at risk. sharps injuries in hospitals actually happen. most babies are not at risk of hep b, nor do they pose a community risk should they contract the disease from their mothers at birth. a ped once told me kids needed the vaccine 'incase they are ever molested'. I didn't even know what to say to that one.

I think you can still get the tetanus shot alone, I mean I know adults do. most people I know dont' realize that you are not likely to get tetanus from a cut. its a deep puncture wound that's been contaminated, usually by animal feces. however, my inlaws and sisters in law live on a moshav, which has some farmland. and when we visit my kids become like one of the natives and run around barefoot climbing on things we'd never consider 'safe' here in NY. so I worry. I think I once read that the shot you can get once you've been injured is only effective if you've had the initial dose prior? or maybe I made that up.

I'm 'very far behind' granolababy's shots schedule, but for some reason in a sleep deprived moment I allowed the ped to give him the dtAp and he went three days without nursing or sleeping, crying nonstop. I consider this an adverse reaction (and so did the ped) so I will not be giving the rest of those.
I hear that you cant get individual MMR shots here anymore, last I checked you still could in Australia. I wonder what the vax schedule is like in other parts of the world. I wonder if they mandate so many vaccinations for such little children.

Mae, I think your dd is wonderfully mindful. as a first time mom, none of this crossed my mind. I hope the rest of her pg goes smoothly and easily. when is she due again?