singing and prolapse

can I just say 'wow!'? I'm always in awe of people who sing, who can *really* sing and I just think its so so cool that you're an opera singer.
there's got to be a way you can get back into it, I hope someone has some insights, I surely don't as I can't/don't sing. would a pessary for singing help? or the v2 supporter? or maybe serious nauli right before and immediately after?
I really want this to happen for you.

and you're not crazy, you're dr isn't the only one who can't/won't see a prolapse. I'm thinking your husband and mom are afraid of prolapse (heck, who isn't?) so its easier to think youre crazy and the dr is right. not only are you not crazy, but you're doing the hard thing - facing up to a difficult situation and taking responsibility for healing yourself. I hear your frustration though. after all this time, my dh still acts as though he never heard of a prolapse and gets that deer in the headlights look whenever I make reference to it. I wonder sometimes if he even believes that I have it, especially now that I have no symptoms. but I digress.
let 'em all call you crazy, you know you're right. and we know.
{{{{{hugs}}}}}}

Lyricmama, I love singing too, and can make the posture work, *but* I don't perform solo. I really feel your pain. I had some larynx problems many years ago, which stopped me singing, and I really mourned that loss. I'm OK now.

I think it would be worth your while trying a V2 supporter belt or other physical support methods in conjunction with WW posture so you can keep singing.

The mature pelvic organs do seem to stop their descent in the absence of further damaging activities. My intuition tells me that singing is not inherently damaging, unless it is done out of WW posture for some time, which may have been the case for you in the past. However, once you get into WW posture you are less likely to cause further descent.

You probably already have the following sussed out, but ...

Are you able to use your upper abs to breathe, while relaxing your lower abs?

Are you able to keep your weight mainly on one foot, then the other other while you sing? This may enable you to use that 'keeping your legs together' technique to further support your bladder. Don't know if this would work but it might help, especially in conjunction with the V2.

I hope you can get it sorted, or you may just have to sing sitting down. That would be a bit limiting. It is hard enough finding mainstream health professionals who will embrace what we are trying to do. To find a voice teacher who understands the principles would be nigh on impossible. But miracles do happen. I do know that Feldenkrais has been used by singers.

Cheers

Louise

Hi Lyricmama,

It is a frustration of mine not to be able to work one-on-one with women who need special attention (which is most women!) Words will have to do.

I don’t believe intraabdominal pressure is the problem. It is a known fact that in normal anatomy increasing intraabdominal pressure simply closes the vagina further down upon itself where it remains even more protected against internal forces.

Rather, my guess is that your body still hasn’t recovered to the point where intraabdominal pressure is working with the positioning of your organs instead of against it.

I’ll use our member Stella as an example. Stella was with us for a year or so before coming to work with me at the Whole Woman Center, so imagine my surprise when she walked in with terrible posture! (hugs, Stella!!) We worked in the studio for a while and it was pretty clear that she was struggling to get her body and mind around these concepts. She was also concerned because her symptoms were quite severe. I decided to take her on a walk/run to a nearby park and it was there that the lights went on. I asked her to exaggerate her lumbar curve, exaggerate lifting her chest, and pull up through the back of her neck. Although it felt strange to her, at least she received a new sense of what we’d been talking about for the past year. Sure enough, her symptoms have vanished, which she shared with us in a lovely post a couple of weeks ago.

I rarely tell women to exaggerate the posture, but sometimes I think it helps get the ball rolling. If I carry my granddaughter for any distance I have to really exaggerate my posture to avoid leaving my uterus behind. When I do this I have no untoward effects.

Remember that intraabdominal pressure can either pin the pelvic organs into position or blow them out of the body. What makes the difference is the shape of our spine and the only way to influence the shape of our spine is through posture. Become that curvaceous Diva by maximally lifting both your chest and your tailbone. When your organs are being pushed toward the front they cannot fall out the back! You have complete control over this.

If you have the dvd you’ve heard me say that the voicebox is the perfect indicator of head placement. If you are tilting your head too far back your voice will be strained; too far forward your voicebox will feel compressed.

Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress!

Christine

Hi Lyricmama

Just out of curiosity, when you say, "now that baby is older", how old is your baby? I assume this is your first baby? It will take a full year or more for your pelvic organs and fascia to shrink back on the inside after you have given birth. There is no doubt about it, having a baby does change your body permanently in some ways. I would think that getting in touch with your old voice teacher would be helpful. Your brain may still think you have a pre-pregnant body, so you may need to make some adjustments.

Yes, my voice came back. I had a blocked nose for many years, and breathed only through my mouth. Eventually my throat reacted, and I could no longer reach high notes at all, and my voice was very croaky. Probably polyps, they said. I was also suffering mild chronic depression, which I think just seized my throat up, like I was an unhappy little songbird. Once I addressed the depression, and then learned how to breathe through my nose I was able to sing my full previous range again, and my asthma disappeared. I have never had a real syrupy, beautiful voice that could sink a ship, but I sing OK. I figure that if Dame Joan Sutherland can sing in the way she did until she was 75, there is hope for me to be still humming along or better at the same age. There is always the shower if nobody else wants to listen!

Cheers

Louise

{{{{Hugs}}}} LyricMama:

Hugs to you, I understand how scary it is! I sing opera and teach voice for a living.

I am new to this site and the WW way, but I am not new to prolapse (been living with general prolapse and varied levels of success repair for 10 years now) and 2 kids post-repairs, three total. Just to reassure you from a singer's perspective, remember that the vocal process, while whole-body, is located, physically speaking, mostly in the throat, tissues of the mouth, and controlled by the brain. You must work the intercostal (rib) muscles like a bellows and drop the diaphragm and then control it up for support, but the diaphragm only drops to the bottom of the ribcage, not below. when you exhale (sing) you will recall of course it goes up into the ribs underneath the lungs, as the ribs collapse, wringing breath out of the lungs. You can of course support and give impulse to the voice via the abdominals, but the sound itself is certainly not generated from there. :-)
"
I remember the 18 mos before I knew what was happening after the birth that "gifted" me prolapse, and then the year after my repairs. I had completely lost my core, I literally had to sit myself up with my arms. I am successful as a singer and although I have pain and definitely am looking to the posture to help give me relief (14 mos postpartum and new challenges again), I can say wholeheartedly that I highly highly doubt that singing in and of itself is contributing in any negative manner to the prolapse, rather, it should serve as a much needed opportunity to express yourself. The tendency is to become "silenced" as women when we have challenges, let alone challenges that attack us in our sexual core. Please do not let this silence your voice! I guarantee you, your family, and many others need to hear your song.

Singing is my life too, so my heart just goes out to you! I agree with the others, call your teacher if you haven't!

Blessings to you!

Christine, you are kidding right when you made that statement? That is my worst fear that my bladder, rectum and uterus some day will just come flying out! Lousie had said in an earlier post that most prolapses wouldn't get greatly worse unless there was a serious accident or injury. What would it take for the intraabdominal pressure to blow your pelvic organs out of the body? Thanks, Connie

Just another descriptor for prolapse. The organs are behind the vaginal walls and cannot fall out of the body. ;)

Hey Lyricmama

You have lots of firming up inside still to come. Most women find that it takes at least 12 months, maybe longer to get back to how you were before pregnancy, or as close as you are going to get. I would be just sitting pretty for now, and waiting for the natural recovery period to finish before catastrophising about what your POPs will be like in future. Just be patient and follow the rules. 9 months of pregnancy isn't going to shrink back in a couple of months. It might on the outside, but inside is a different matter altogether.

Cheers

Louise

You are so welcome Lyric! First off, yes, I sang through three pregnancies, and performed in a concert as a soloist right after number two, I actually wore him to rehearsals in a sling. I was 3 weeks pp for that concert. but like all one time exertions... I had to make adjustments, I was not completely in my best voice (let alone body) and I was TIRED after. I am guessing this is your first baby? Pregnancy makes HUGE changes in the state of all of your systems, as the others have said, more than would go back in just 20 weeks.

Think of it this way... you would not expect a highly trained professional gymnast to run out and start doing full routines with no side affects in under 6 months from childbirth. You would expect her to need to retrain and rebuild her system, for all that she had stayed in shape and continued to work out during her pregnancy. POP or no, she would not just jump in full force to her routine, right? What we do as singers is every bit as specific and athletic. You know as well as I do the level of self-care required for a classical singer, although others may not. How much sleep are you getting with that newborn? How hydrated are you? Do you still have edema? If so, your body is still adjusting fluid levels, which will affect how you sound as well. You are a closed system, your body IS your instrument. So, look to your self-care and be patient!!

That said, specifically to singing, I recommend that you sing a legato line and observe your posture and alignment, especially the small of your back, shoulders, and neck, chin, and jaw. Then sing your cadenza and observe the same. Does anything change? Try to watch your alignment from both the front and the side. (you could thrust your head slightly forward with upper notes for example, which strains the vocal mechanism and takes you off of your breath, ever so slightly, but would be felt) You may find this observation tells you all you need to know. A coach who knows you and your technique would be invaluable, because they could watch your body and observe any physical changes you are making to create support for yourself where you are still weak, which is what I suspect. You might also try sitting cross-legged, with your sit-bones aligned slightly back, your belly slightly forward, like the WW posture lines you up, lifted ribcage, neck long and loose and try singing the phrase again with the support of the floor underneath you and see if that makes a difference.

I find that the WW posture reminds me very much of Alexander Technique. I think it will "sing well" but I need to retrain my body, I carry a great deal of tension in my hips and that goes down the backs of my legs to the knees.

Best to you!
Jennifer

how interesting is it that we have two opera singers joining at more or less the same time?
same thing happened with our runners and bikers.
some wierd karma going on.