progress or lack of it

I hear the frustration and the fear in your post. when I initially started here, my symptoms got worse. it was very demoralizing to say the least.
lucky for me though, I didn't have real pain from POP. discomfort, yes, but not pain.
maybe someone else can offer advice about your pain. all I can say is that I do know that living with real pain is not easy. so I hope you can find some solutions there.

my cervix has gotten lower, but I recently (about 6 mo ago, a few years into this work) noticed that it is pointing back rather than forward, which to me is progress. I credit that to the nauli, which I cannot recommend enough.

I also have trouble comparing the experiences here to those of the irl people I know. but then again, the women I know make lots of life choices that differ from mine, so I am not hesitant to be the odd one out. it would be so helpful though, to have irl support, some one who knows what you're going through, who's been there before you and can cheerlead/support/etc. but I get that here, and it will have to be enough until there are more women managing prolapse without surgery and willing to be open about it.

you asked about middle ground. this is what I think.
middle ground is where you are after looking at extremes and finding what works for you. middle ground is different for each of us; we each have our own set of unique circumstances and perspective. I personally am afraid of surgery. in general, and specifically the surgical options for prolapse. so unless my quality of life was unbearable, it is not something I would ever consider. but I wouldn't brand anyone who would consider surgery as a heretic, just desperately looking for a way to live without discomfort! what kept me going when I was doing all the right things and not improving was the fact that surgery is never reversible and worst case scenario the posture doesn't work, I'm miserable all the time, I can always choose surgery later. by the end of my first year I was no longer considering surgery at all, having had some progress.

I could have written your post H. I am sure you have dealt with this much longer than I have, my prolapse moving to grade 3 has only been 5 months. I am also having pain, pressure, can't stand for very long and feel the bulge from my cystocele with every step. Tampons and sea sponges help for only a few hours. I am ready and willing to try nauli, but I can only find videos of young, thin men doing it on the internet and I can't understand what the procedure is. I am working hard on the posture, lifting my granddaughters as little as possible, no straining on the toilet, so I think I am doing things right for the most part too but seeing progress that only lasts briefly. I am deathly afraid of a general anesthic, that is the main reason for me I am fighting surgery. I also know women who have had the surgical repair with no problems at all. I have no real attachment to my uterus and ovaries, they have given me nothing but trouble the last few years. So for now, I will continue to give it more time, pray it might get a little better, but in reality know I will probably end up having the surgery in the years to come. Connie

it is tricky to get women to share somewhat *embarrassing* symptoms present after surgery. So she may say she is fine- and in fact she may feel fine- but she also may not and getting her to admit that to you would be pretty challenging. The best way to understand how women fare post surgery is to check out some surgical forums- women there tell such a sad story amazingly optimistically. They are taking prescription stool softeners, prescription pain meds, have had repeat surgeries etc....by looking online you will see the real picture- they still leak urine all day- but they insist they are fine in the next breath.
Connie, when you say you are not attached to your uterus and ovaries I have to think you are a product of our society at it's worst. I suggest one of the first steps you can take is to begin to try to appreciate these vital organs and the role they have played in your life. Reject your body and it gets the message.
Before you put in the tampon try using a high quality lube and coat the inside of your vagina with it-this may help with the sore feeling upon removal.
You want to know why this has happened to you- you want to pinpoint the cause- have something to blame. Well I have read that prolapse is related to pregnancy and childbirth- so if you need a reason there is a good one....
I think prolapse is a normal part of aging. Pain is not.
I am glad to hear your SPD is not in a flare up right now. This is great news. H, I hope you start seeing the benefits of this work soon. It is work though. Take a walk- use large flapping motions with your arms- pull up through the crown of your head-relax your lower abdomen. Breathe and visualize. Come home and get on your knees and elbows- breathe deeply and feel your uterus fall forward. Then lie flat on your back and feel the floor supporting your whole body. Breathe! Deeply.
This is your body right now. Find the source of your pain. Work to heal it.

I was going to address these posts as first order of business this morning, but Alemama said it all. Just a couple of additional thoughts:

H: Many other women have told us that their posture was fine, even WW-like, before starting this work. I’m kinda doubting it. What makes WWPosture different than anything else on the planet is that we intentionally relax our lower belly - something that is even TABOO in our culture. The upper belly is naturally taut because of the way we hold it. I can’t see you, so I really don’t know, but I am very familiar with this very common complaint.

Connie: I can’t imagine how the posture could work while on Xanax. There is an aliveness in this work, for which every cell in the body is recruited. I would take a look at the FDA drug site and read through all possible side effects of this drug. There is a “view” which has to be present for this work to be effective. That’s because we have to “do” it all day every day and without the view we get tired and discouraged. The body also has to be pure and healthy so that it will cooperate.

It's not often that I write of late - But I still read.....

I just wanted to say - The posture is the key - But... It takes time. 18mths ago I was a grade 3 POP - It bothered me so much and I felt my life was dictating to me what I could and coul not do. Now... I can happily say that my life is more fun than it has ever been (including pre pop)

I think that peoples bodies will react to the posture at differing rates. At first I used the sea sponge for a while and that to be effective has to be trimmed to the right size for your body and your POP. Then I tried Tampons - But not the normal way round - This way round (|||||||||||) as in sideways - one end in first then push to one side then the other end in...

Graduallly things settled (This took maybe a year from a Grade3 to my not having the POP dictate to me what 'we' could do - But for us to co-reside in my body quite happily together...

You say Connie that you think you will have to have the surgery eventually - But when you and your POP get together and sort yourselves out - You will find that surgery doesn't enter your head anymore. You will find that life and living is all that interests you and that your POP is not the first thing you think about when you open your eyes in the morning and is not the last thing you think of when you go to bed at night...

You say you have no real attachment to your Ovaries or Uterus. But they have such a very important attachment to you - And your body NEEDS them - Even after Menopause they are important.

As I said above - I was a grade 3 - I did the 'Go to a Physio' type thing - I did the 'Angry at myself and the world' type thing - For a couple of months there I was really a head case. That is probably a normal way of your psyche gettng it's head round such a large and emotionally devastating change. And I am not too proud to admit that I coped very badly in those months. But - Christines teachings carried me thorugh as I had read her wonderful book, I had taken in the words and I had read it so many times trying to find out what I must have done wrong. At that time I did not trust my own body to sort itself out and for it to come to terms with 'the fall' also.

Sorry this is so long - But - Please trust that your body will and can get back to a good place. Your body needs your uterus as much as anything - Even after menopause.....

*OK the front door went and I lost my sense of what I was saying - lol)

Suffice to say - Your world has not ended - This willnot defeat you.... All you have to do is to accept that you are now co-existing with this. The acceptance of the mind is as important as the Posture and everythign works together to achieve the end...

I hope that you will find that what you are learning from this site will give you the tools you need to move on with your new pal POP (you can accept it as a friend in the end - Tho I am sure you think I am mad now - lol)

I hope that you will trust in your body as much as your body trusts in you :-)

Take Care

Sue

♥

When I wrote my response today I was only seeing Connie and Alemama’s posts - even though I had read Gmom’s as usual thought-provoking post earlier. Granolamom says it all as does Sue! We all bring different perspectives and that is the value of a worldwide open forum - in fact, perhaps the only thing more powerful than a worldwide closed system! Even if it does have its limitations.

;) Christine

Good to see you, Sue!!

Sue, you encouraged me that you had a grade 3 and 18 months later you are doing well. I know I need more time, but patience is tough when you are not seeing much improvement. I am heading into post menopause and worried that estrogen the young girls have to help them heal might not be there for my healing process. Christine, I have taken Xanax off and on for years. I know all the side effects and really only take a small amount to help sleep. I am not in posture then! I always tell my husband he will have to pry the Xanax out of my cold dead hand! All you ladies in your 40's and 50's must have handled changing hormones better than me. I currently have ANOTHER ovarian cyst, so I really am not thrilled with what my body is offering me right now. When this gets cleard up I will evaluate where I am at with this prolapse. I am not giving up, just hoping I can sing the praises of this work like the rest of you do. Connie

hiya!
good to hear from you.
you sound good. and I can attest to where you've been, I remember your early days.

Hi All

Two points. I am playing devil's advocate here.

1 Is it wrong to have surgical repairs? We know that there is a risk of all sorts of horrible things happening as a result of, and subsequent to surgical repairs. We are told anecdotally about women having hysterectomies and resuspensions and having no subsequent problems. Even the figure of 50% of women who have had hysterectomies developing subsequent prolapses means that 50% do not develop subsequent prolapses.

However, as Alemema points out, we don't find out about the ones who will not speak up, probably because they don't want to admit that they got the short straw and are no better off than they were before the surgery. The surgery has not been a good investment of time, money, pain and energy that they thought it would be. Nobody likes admitting they were wrong. They would rather put up with the difficulties and get on with their lives than wring their hands about it and complain. Either that, or that they don't want to go through more surgery, so they just shut up about the difficulties they are having, realising that it is not going to get any better.

There are bound to be some who have no discernible problems after repairs, and as Alemema points out, it is not really OK to interrogate a woman who says there is nothing wrong, so we will never know.

3a It is the doctors who are wrong, in doing surgical procedures without giving women the whole story, without the woman having to put them through intense interrogation. These women have no way of knowing what they don't know, other than doing their own research, which has brought us all here. Hooray for Whole Woman!

The surgeons' surgical confidence rubs off on these women. Sure, they can do the procedure confidently, and exactly how it is meant to be done. They are gold standard surgeons in this respect. It is like a panel beater who will fill all the holes and uneven eges with bog, re-weld door hinges and the like so that the car looks all lined-up OK, give it a glowing paint job and sell it as an undamaged vehicle. ^#*($&^%!^)# !!!

3b The prevailing view here, from all the reading and posting I have done, is that repair surgery is a foolish cop-out (hard language, I know, and I am sorry if I offend anyone). However, different women experience POP in different ways, and the prospect of having to manage the reproductive/sexual organs for the rest of their lives is just too much for some women, despite the risks of potential surgery.

The problem is in the mind and in the heart, as much as the body. You can get used to a changed body, which is no longer virginal, but manageable if annoying at times. You can reduce your symptoms, in time, and work around your POPs.

It is like a dicky knee or fingers that will no longer knit. If your heart is OK with that, then you do not suffer. You can play lawnbowls instead of tennis. Instead of knitting, you can read, then when you can no longer read, you can listen. Instead of picking up rocks you can roll them, or get somebody else to shift the darned things!

4 POPs do seem to change over time, and may only be aggravated by certan activities which have a useby date, eg lifting toddlers, who grow up, and who may eventually lift us. None of us knows what our POPs, discovered when our children were small or before, will be doing when we are eighty, if we keep managing our POP's ourselves. Will Wholewoman techiques still work for us in old age, or will the process of ageing alter our skeletal structure and movement to a point where they will not work?

I have yet to see the results of well-designed research, showing that osteoporosis *causes* the spine fractures and hunched over posture, when it may be that the bad posture causes the stresses that allow an osteoporosis-affected spine to fracture. That is a question that I have never seen asked. For that to happen, I think mainstream medicine needs to discover the pivotal role of good posture in overall health, and they haven't done that yet.

It will be interesting to see how women who have managed POP, discovered when they have small children, or before, and managed with Wholewoman techniques, will experience the bodily changes of menopause. Is menopause the time when POPs most commonly manifest, or is menopause a time when women become aware of previous changes in their pelvic region because of the vulval and vaginal dryness that draws their attention to the pelvic region, and decide to do something about it. It is all so qualitiative.

We are not our POPs. Some women never seem to reach a point where they can accept a degree of POP for the long term. One woman may be able to live a normal life with third degree, while another woman is overwhelmed by the discovery of first or second degree. (And assigning a degree is such a qualitative thing too, changing by the day, and during the day.) I think a lot of the acceptance issues are tied to a respected doctor's attitude, and whether s/he suggests that it is the beginning of the end, or will probably stabilise with time. Fear is a great motivator.

Is it necessarily a bad thing for a woman to decide to have a repair procedure after finding that they cannot get WW to work? After a year? After 2 years?

Ae we our sisters' keepers, or just the guardian angels keepin' it real?

Cheers

Louise

Thank you to all the other posters for all that wisdom and compassion. Here's my perspective to add to the mix. I regard surgery as a possible (but highly unlikely) very last resort for when I'm very old, if absolutely all else has failed. By then, maybe there'll be more understanding of what needs to be addressed, better techniques etc etc. My grandmother had a hysterectomy at age 80 and lived nearly another 20 years with no regrets - she had a lovely surgeon, recovered very quickly, had loads of support from family, she was no longer lifting, walking long distances, having sex etc, so she was fine, didn't get other POPs, for her it was a good choice. I like to think that if she'd had the information on this site she wouldn't have needed it in the first place. By the time I'm very old, maybe modern medicine will even come up with ways of transplanting or re-growing cells to repair damage, who knows. In the meantime, I don't hold my breath but grab hold of every single resource that I can find to support myself, physically and emotionally, learning as much as I can from my own experiences and other people's, which is why this site is so wonderful. So the cornerstone for me is using the posture, exercises and lifestyle advice on this site, sometimes taking quite a while to get it right - without doing this stuff the other stuff just can't work properly. The other stuff: homoeopathy for acute episodes of prolapse and associated symptoms such as cystitis, it really works, I've never had to use antibiotics; cranial osteopathy; Alexander Technique; self-hypnosis and Emotional Freedom Technique (you can google this to find the site). As Louise says, we are not our POPs. One of my favourite EFT phrases that I've made up for myself is "even though I have this prolapse feeling I choose to also feel happy and optimistic". Our cells respond to our thoughts, sometimes amazingly quickly and apparently miraculously, sometimes over a longer period of time. Re the posture, I heartily agree with what Christine says about thinking you're doing the posture when you're not. I've been doing it for a few years and I've been doing Alexander Technique for 25 years and I still can't afford to get complacent, even though it's pretty much second nature most of the time. Many times my posture lapses because I'm tired or feeling a bit low or rushing about or just engrossed in something so that I forget. Even now, I sometimes think I'm doing it but when I check, I'm not quite. And it's amazing how even a tiny shift and adjustment can get me back in balance.
So my message is, never give up, there's always something that will help, not always immediately or maybe only a little bit at first. Also, when it comes to health issues generally, there is always something new to learn which is presumably how we've now got the second edition of STWW. When pain and discomfort are particularly bad, give yourself as many treats as you can, things, however small, that you can enjoy despite everything, and rest assured that it can all improve as you get better at marshalling all the resources out there. best wishes Judith

H
I very much agree with your comments about mind/body. and I think you are very blessed to have someone like your aunt in your life. I don't think louise or anyone else was implying that your aunt wasn't being totally honest/forthcoming with you, only that there are many post surgical women out there who will tell you that their surgical fix was totally successful, but then it comes out later that they're incontinent, live with pain, or some other nasty ill effect of surgery.
the big problem with urogyn surgery is that it really isn't well studied in terms of long term follow up. there are so many variations of the current procedures and very often women DONT speak up as to the extent of post surgical side effects. that is not to say that there aren't women out there who have had a positive surgical experience. again, we will never truly know the statistics on this one, but statistics don't really apply to the individual. who cares if the rate of success is 99% if you fall into the 1%?
I believe that all we can do is learn all we can about our options, using statistics to guide us somewhat, but ultimately, we choose a path that we can best live with, one that is consistent with who we are, what we believe in and how we live.

I have a similar personal story...back surgery is notoriously ineffective in terms of pain relief. I know this from working with many back patients and alongside seasoned therapists who've spent careers working with back patients. a frustrating group, since most do not get better.
anyway, my grandfather developed spinal stenosis when he was in his seventies. lived with the pain for years but when he could no longer walk, he went for surgery. believed wholeheartedly in his surgeons and in the procedure and sure enough, surgery was a success, he healed beautifully and was able to walk independantly for short but functional distances enabling him to live alone until the day he died at 84. but when I asked him one day, did he still have pain, he said only a bit. only in one leg. the other was numb. had he told his doctor? no, he didn't want to bother him. so now this surgeon can't properly compute his statistics because he isn't getting all the facts. I can only imagine how much less likely a person would be to report fecal staining on her underpants. I probably would think twice.
now, for my grandfather, the tradeoff of some pain and numbness in exchange for the ability to walk was an easy one. he knew those were potential side effects and made his cost/benefit analysis, which is something a person can only do for himself.
so I would not ever judge someone who went into surgery with her eyes open. honestly, if I felt my quality of life was so poor, I'd think about it too. my analysis looks like this: how do my worst symptoms rate against the worst surgical outcome? as long as I'm ahead with my symptoms being easier to live with, I choose the bird in the hand. that's pretty much how I live my life, which is why I will never get rich, lol. but it works for me.
so where is all this babbling going? not sure, but I hope that your positive energy brings you success with the non surgical management. but you've got my support wherever you end up. the reason I may seem anti surgery is because I am so so afraid of its negative outcomes. but I am never anti the woman who considers surgery.

Hi Gmom

One of the reasons why it is so hard to know what happens in the longer term is that in this area long term is 5 years. They don't do any followup research after 5 years. Perhaps 5 years without problems is regarded as successful? Maybe it is just too expensive to carry the research out further than that?

All good research is carried out during the duration of the project. You cannot take previous research and extend it by doing extra bits later. I cannot see the problem with this, other than tracking down the previous participants, but I guess they have their reasons. Researchers are always keen to get their research finished and published. It would be administratively very difficult to just save some of the research money for another study of the same participants 10 years or 20 years down the track.

The other possible reason is that they know there are problems further down the track, but with the multiple factors in a woman's life, it would be very difficult to prove any cause and effect. Or else (the cynic in me says) they just don't want to draw attention to the later problems, but even I doubt that it is the whole reason.

I think any young woman considering surgical repairs is a totally different case from an old woman having surgical repairs. Five years of good outcome to an old woman would probably be fair odds, but for a young woman, say 30 years old, with decades of active life ahead of her, I would think that 5 years of good outcome would represent a pretty risky wager. That is, of course, if the woman gets five years good outcome.

Many of the post-surgery problems, and those directly attributable to the surgery, happen within days or weeks of the first surgery. Therein lies the problem. I am not a great risk taker either, Gmom. If I am having difficulties that could be alleviated, when I am 90, I might think about it. My Mum turned 97 the other day. I really don't think they would be interested in doing pelvic repairs on a 90 year old, so it looks like I might just have to keep managing it all myself.

Cheers

Louise

Someday all girls and women will appreciate the sacred nature of the human female body. This will be worked out for us by mathematician/artist/scientists who will reveal that the pelvic interior follows the “Golden Proportion” just as do bodies, faces, flowers, shells, pine cones, beehives, and a million other things in nature. When that sacred geometry is greatly disrupted at its hub, the whole structure of the body changes.

A certain percentage of the time, loops of bowel fall just so into the empty cavity once occupied by the uterus/broad ligaments so that the rectum and bladder are adequately supported for years. Some women can enjoy sex without the benefit of the uterus-clitoris connection, which all women know to be the source of intense, deep orgasm. Some “thoughtful” surgeons even leave the cervix in so men have something to push against.

The Whole Woman work is interested in studying the gross musculoskeletal changes that take place after all forms of hysterectomy - with or without bilateral or unilateral oopherectomy. Fortunately, we can all be participants in this study, which is a good thing since not one scientific paper exists on the subject. Look around! Go to any mall or recreation area and you will see half of us walking around with the same body type! It is a wide-bottomed apple-shape that is almost completely flattened at the lumbar spine and greatly humped at the base of the neck. The feet are often widely splayed.

Human females had to strike a very delicate balance with nature. Our hips had to be wide enough to birth large-headed offspring, yet narrow enough to walk the graceful human walk - and keep up with our men. We know the hips widen after hysterectomy. We don’t need to wait for a scientific study to prove this to us - look at Aunt Jane! Then look at pictures of her when she was young and see that she didn’t always have that wide, frozen pelvis that no longer moves naturally on her spine.

Just how has Auntie’s pelvis widened and is this the reason for her intense back pain? How about all those women lying in hospital beds with broken hips? Sure, men get osteoporosis too and break their hips. But aren’t upwards of 90% of those beds occupied by women? Whom amongst them are without their uterus? Aren’t most of these breaks at the femoral neck? Wouldn’t this be the most likely point of stress in women whose pelvis has widened at the sacroiliac joints? How much widening can the human pelvis tolerate before becoming greatly destabilized? What percentage of senior athletes are hysterectomized? Do women without a uterus engage in sport at the same level as whole women? Are they as active generally?

Of course even these realities do not matter to the woman who has the luxury of spending the greater part of her life sitting on a cushion eating strawberries. But for women who are in touch with their sacred nature there is simply no discussion.

Christine

Hi Christine

A couple of questions.

Firstly re, "and you will see half of us walking around with the same body type! It is a wide-bottomed apple-shape that is almost completely flattened at the lumbar spine and greatly humped at the base of the neck. The feet are often widely splayed." Do you mean half of the women we see, ie the half who have had hysterectomy and / or(?) associated pelvic repairs, or do you mean metaphorically 'half'? Would you please explain a little more clearly exactly which women you are describing?

And does the wide-bottomed apple shape mean that there is little waist, and that the 'wings' of the pelvis grow further apart across the front, widening the top of the pelvis, and allowing it to counter-nutate and the coccyx to lower, which also means these women are flatter across the butt?

Do you also mean that they need to crane the neck forwards to be able to stand upright, a bit like the skeleton in Fig 7.3 of STWW, because the pelvis had indeed become more cuplike?

Am I on the right track here?

BTW, I don't think being surgically altered is a prerequisite for this type of posture. Negative self-image is enough to stoop any woman of any age, and have her protecting her rear end. Ask any unhappy teenager.

Secondly, I have just answered my second question. This link, http://www.iofbonehealth.org/facts-and-statistics.html#factsheet-categor... is a general fact sheet (referenced) about osteoporosis, which illustrates the different incidences of hip and spine fracture between men and women. This International Osteoporosis Foundation appears to be a large and reputable organisation. There are are also some other very interesting stats in it.

Cheers

Louise

I responded to your address to me on the thread where you made the original comment. "Kegals the right way"

H and Davina, thank you for your interesting and well thought out posts. I look forward to more! By the way, 5 symptom free years sound pretty good to me right now. Many days I wonder how much worse it could get after surgery. I am living with most of the post-surgery complications now. Is time the biggest healer for women with POP who don't want surgery? Or, if you don't heed WW techniques, posture, exercises, diet, environment, clothing, will you never get to a place of comfort with your POP? Just trying to figure this all out, maybe there are no concrete answers. I know when you have surgery (any surgery) and your condition doesn't improve or gets worse, you want to shout if from the rooftop that you are mad as hell. I would discourage anyone I met from having a similar surgery. So I don't think women who have had bad experiences with surgery are silent about it. If Christine had been silent, we wouldn't have this site to share our thoughts. I seem to think women like me, don't fess up to what's really going when someone asks, why can't you lift anymore, why don't you exercise like you used to, why don't sit on the couch or recliner anymore? I always say, I have back problems, too embarrassed to say my bladder is hanging out! Connie

Hi All

Just a quick comment. Don't read too much into Christine's silence on this matter. She is unexpectedly very busy with family at the moment. I am sure she will post when she can. I am certainly looking forward to her answers and comments.

Cheers

Louise

Hello Friends,

Thanks, Louise - I was up til 2 a.m. fixing up our new shop.

I’m not here to be a diplomat, but to tell it like it is in the most clear way possible. In re-reading my post, I do not see anything hurtful except the truth. I am sorry if it was not as sugar-coated as you would like.

The “apple-shape” description seems to have gotten the most reaction. If you would prefer “short-waisted” I will go along with that. Look, this is one of the most serious complications of hysterectomy - how can I say it in a way that is not hurtful when it is a reality?

After some undetermined period of time, the ribcage comes to almost rest on the hipbones. I also know post-hysterectomy women who exercise, eat well and are slender. But they all eventually develop very short waists. Perhaps it is the women who do not know how to take proper care of themselves and continue to live in spinal flexion who develop the most severe body-type that I describe. It is everywhere and Louise, my comment was referring to the fact that by age 65 half of us are walking around without our uterus.

As Louise knows, for years I have been trying to understand post-hysterectomy spinal changes and can only determine that because of destabilized SIJs the ilia widen. There is no longer the most powerful muscle in the body, the uterus, tethered in front and keeping the sacral spine pulled forward and stabilized. Therefore, the horizontal part of the spine, the sacrum, tilts up and becomes more vertical. The vertebrae must become compressed for the spine to shorten in this way.

Modern culture does produce the flattened-lumbar-curve-hump-at-base-of-neck shape regardless of surgical status. But not the widened hips and not to such an extreme degree. And I do not believe estrogen to be a major contributing factor.

Spectacular orgasms? I have no comment except to say the uterus is a sexual organ and diminished or absent orgasms are one of the most common results of the surgery, according to the tens of thousands of women with the exact same symptoms posting on hystersisters.

The last bit of reaction was about the seriously addicting drug Xanax, which has a plasma half-life of 11.2 hours. This stuff is always in Connie’s system and is likely having a significant effect on the health of her connective tissue. I have worked with seriously addicted women and one of the things I noticed is that the holes in their ears from pierced earrings can become very elongated and drooping. Anecdotal, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

I really have no time or interest in taking part in an emotional upheaval, so you all carry on the conversation without me. This is not tonsillectomy we are talking about, but an old, misconceived, and barbaric surgery that removes the TRUE center of gravity from women. I'm sorry if that sounds cruel or harsh, but I do not know how to say it any other way.

Love and light,

Christine

not christine, and not an expert, but I still wanted to share the bit I know.

as long as you have your uterus, bladder and bowel, and no one has sewn them to anything they didn't come attached to, they ARE STILL tethered to their normal, natural attachments. even when prolapsed. I think the benefit of this posture and exercises is that we can strengthen (for lack of better term, though strengthen is not exactly what I mean) those attachments so that between the shape of the spinal curve, relaxed lower belly and direction of breath force, we keep those organs pinned where they should be.
you are right that prolapsed organs aren't in their normal positions and the body adapts, but we can look at it the other way too. change the body (ie posture) and the prolapsed organs will have to adapt (ie move into more stable positions).
when the uterus is removed, there is a space. and gravity doesnt' allow for empty spaces really, so something has to change to fill that space. shortening of the waist helps reduce the space. I haven't read up on this in a while so I may be misguided, but I also think of the uterus as a weight that holds the bladder forward. and I know that the uterus holds the top of the vaginal canal up, which is why vaginal vault prolapse is exceedingly rare in a women who has her uterus.
now I'm not sure why it happens, and personally I've not done any studies, but the few women I know to be hysterectomized actually have developed that posture that christine describes since their surgeries.
I don't think there is any reason to believe that prolapse affects stability of the SIJ as much as stability of the SIJ affects development of a prolapse. again, just my unscientific opinion.

re emptying dishwashers and the like, I kneel on the floor maintaining pelvic nutation. I have front loading washer/dryer and for those I sit on the floor.
I keep meaning to get a height adjustable stool on wheels but I'm afraid of what my toddler will do with access to something like that.

don't know about the continued relevance of the exercises mentioned in the first edition. I still do them sometimes because they feel good, but not on a regular basis because I don't have the time.

Hi All

I would like to add to Granolamom's comments. Yes, these organs are still tethered to their original connections, but freer to move with the stretching and often damage to fascia surrounding them. With hysterectomy, what is removed along with the uterus is the big, strong, broad ligament that hangs from ilium to ilium (and holds the two wings of the ilia towards each other), and in which the uterus is suspended, so that large curtain is no longer there and able to support the fascia below it, which surround and support the bladder. That is the way I see it, anyway.

The round ligament, which seems to loosely hold the uterus forward and joins down onto the labia majora, is also removed. At least it is still there, if stretched, when you still have a (prolapsed) uterus.

The top of the vagina is held there by the fascia surrounding it, which keep it in the right position relative to the other (jello) organs. It also has a diagonal orientation in the bottom half of the vagina, going backwards and up, before turning forwards to meet the cervix which normally is horizontal and facing backwards. There is normally nothing to push the top of the vagina downwards because intraabdominal forces hit the vagina diagonally (down and back), which is at rightangles to the (also diagonal, but down and forwards) vagina, not down it. Sorry if this is just too confusing. Refer to STWW.

The aim of WW posture, as Gmom says, is to normalise the positions of the organs so that intraabdominal forces are exerted in a more normal direction, holding the organs in place, and preventing further slippage and damage as much as possible. It's a bit chicken and egg really, but the principle of nature is that if you have two stable sides to a triangle, the third side of the triangle will be stabilised by the first two.

The floor exercises were designed first, but Christine decided that, as prolapse is mainly a problem when we are vertical, it was important to strengthen the muscles that keep us vertical, and that muscles are best exercised when we are upright because they are used in the right combinations, rather than in isolation. You get more bang for your buck when exercising upright. There is nothing wrong with the mat exercises. It's just that they are only half the story.

Dishwashers, try kneeling on toes and knee with one leg, while squatting with the other, and reaching half sideways, rather than a deep squat reaching forwards. I have a front loading washing machine up on a 15inch high, steel plinth with a lockable drawer for detergents etc, that I bought for the purpose. I still kneel on the floor to sort through washing on the floor and load it, but I unload it into the trolley while standing. The bottom of the door is at mid-thigh level. You have to set these up carefully, because they can move more than a spinning washing machine by itself if they are not absolutely even.

I hope I have all this right and that it makes it all a bit clearer.

I would just like to add that the aim of this site is not to bag surgical repairs, but to support managing your POPs without surgery. Personally, the risks of surgery speak for themselves. Surgical repairs are not for me, as I greatly value my active life at this point.

Each woman needs to measure up the unpredictable risks of surgery against the intractibility of her POP symptoms and decide for herself. It is not up to me or any of us to make that decision for any woman, and I will do my best to ensure that she knows what she is potentially letting herself in for if she decides on surgery, before letting up on the self-management argument.

Women do not have to read my posts, or even visit this website if they don't want to read what we have to say. The marketing industry will do its best to convince women that surgical repairs are the way to go, but we know that the post-surgery picture is not always as rosy as it is painted, and you cannot go backwards and undo it. The reality is that there are many, many women in our Membership who find that Wholewoman techniques, while not perfect, enable them to minimise their POP symptoms and get their lives back without compromising the structures of their bodies.

The other reality is that we all have differing priorities for out bodies and our lifestyles, and the surgery choice is often one of 'which is the least worst for me'.

Cheers

Louise

Thanks Louise for that very clear explanation of ligament support, all done without the aid of diagrams. Re the whole surgery v non-surgery discussion, I totally agree with the points you make. Obviously, it can only be a personal decision and surely one of the main aims of this site is to provide not only support but as much information is possible so that the decision is an informed one. The situation in the UK is probably healthier than in the US, insofar as hysterectomies are done on the NHS (unless you choose to go privately) so at least there isn't the worry that surgeons are selling their services to pay for their next holiday. Nervertheless, surgeons obviously have a career in doing what they do and they believe that what they do is good and right. When I was first diagnosed I was referred to a obgyn consultant (female) at our local hospital. She told me that there were two schools of thought about pelvic surgery and I'd get different opinions depending on who I went to see - she was firmly of the don't ever touch it with a bargepole variety. She said that it's risky, doesn't always work and, even if it does, will usually necessitate further surgery. I also picked up a subtext that the pro-surgery camp tends to be male. In short, everything that Christine has told us about surgery. This was several years ago and obviously didn't come with all the WW stuff about self-management through posture and she did advocate kegels etc. I hadn't ever considered surgery as an option anyway but I still found this consultation useful and I would recomend to anyone who, after reading all the WW stuff, is still contemplating surgery to get at least a couple of professional opinions, including from women and from an anti-surgery obgyn before taking the irrevocable step. In the end, all of us can only make decisions based on what we think is best in our own particular situation and at the point we're at in our lives, but we can still support each other regardless. best wishes Judith

H. What a very sensible lady you sound!
:-)

Slightly off topic. Christine wrote:

I have worked with seriously addicted women and one of the things I noticed is that the holes in their ears from pierced earrings can become very elongated and drooping. Anecdotal, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

Same thing happened to my mom, so it is not anecdotal. Right after my father had died she started to take low dose Xanax, and she had to remove her earrings ASAP. She went off Xanax 2 years ago and her ears still a bit sore but the holes looks better now and she is able to wear her earrings again.

How mysterious our bodies are! Christine, what a great observer you are! Kudos to you!

Liv

I have taken a low dose of Xanax off and on for years. My holes, in my ears are fine, wish I could say the same for other holes. Almost 6 months since prolapse, no change.

I did not mean to hurt you w/ the earring stuff. I am 7 months post prolapse (or who knows? maybe years, I just did not notice it), but started the posture only 6 weeks ago, and my book hasn't arrived yet. I told myself yesterday (after I was brave enough to read and do the self exam) that on my 30th birthday I would like to feel better than now. I will be 29 this August. I won't look back, just go, b/c, honestly, what else to do?

I feel better, yes, I admit, but I know it is rather in my mind. I still have to pee a lot, but not all the time. If I read the previous years' posts correctly, I am about to develop a rectocele sooner or later. Life is challenging, yes, but maybe these kinds of things changes, forms us and we all became stronger.

Don't be discouraged, you need to believe that you will feel better. Just don't give up!
Hugs
Liv

There was a research done in 2008 in one of the Polish hospitals performing hysterectomies. It turned out that 47% of them developed cystocele already in a year - two years following the hysterectomy (the women were invited to the hospital for a check-up and examined vaginally). Yet, when I read the forums where somebody asks "Should I have my uterus removed?" or "What is your quality of life after hysterectomy?" 99% of the posts are "Go for it!", "Don't be scared". Bladder prolapse, incontinence are hardly ever mentioned. I was one of two women touching the problem of prolapse after hysterectomy and all the other women claimed that "It was just a myth" and their mothers, aunts 30 years after the surgery don't have a sign of bladder prolapse and incontinence. Where is the truth????

Hi Karolka

If the hospital published their results I can only assume that they are willing to admit the shortcomings of their procedure. They have no incentive to be lying, so that is probably the truth. All the references in STWW about the risks of hysterectomy come from peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific journals, so they are unlikely to be lying.

Women's anecdotal accounts, on the other hand, are difficult to assess. Some may be truthful. Some may be ignorant of their prolapses (as happens to many of us until the straw breaks the camel's back). Some may have POP symptoms that are negligible compared to other symptoms they suffer. Some may think that prolapse means that the cervix external and hanging at knee level. Some may be so disabled that they don't do anything that makes their POPs symptomatic. Some may regard POP symptoms as normal 'ageing'. Some may be in denial. Some may be lying because they think POPs are dirty or stigmatised, and don't want to be seen as 'dirty' or stigmatised. It is likely that 50% of hysterectomised women will have further prolapse. Doesn't that mean that 50% won't?

I think a person's perception of any difficulty they have determines whether or not it is an issue for them. One person's everyday aches and pains are another person's crippling disability. Pain and dis-ability can be just stuff you deal with, stuff you try to heal, or it can be a means to get attention, or distract a person from other things in life, or even be their number one focus. I think we can only deal with our own truth. We can point out things to others. We can provide them with resources, but only they can decide what to do with that information. Truth is a very rubbery commodity.

Cheers

Louise