Pooing posture in the animal kingdom / rectocele

Submitted by louiseds on December 2, 2009 - 1:41am
Body: 

Hi All

Have a think about what animals do when they evacuate the bowel. I observe dogs and cats semi-squatting on all fours with knees apart while lifting their tail. Horses seem to put their head up and just lift their tail. Sheep and cattle lift the tail, but I think they can also keep grazing (further spying needed - maybe they are smarter than we think).

Lifting of the tail seems to be the common feature, and all these animals have well-bent legs in their normal posture.

I am wondering what other mammals do?

What do other primates do?

What do non-primate, bipedal mammals (like kangaroos) do?

"Where is all this leading", you may well ask. I have another theory to test, because I know that women with rectocele are more conscious of pooing posture than any other group of women on the planet! So please get out there into Zooland with your binoculars and start taking notes and/or pictures.

Oh, by the way, the theory is that women with rectocele can improve emptying of the bowel by winding up the pelvic organs with features of WW posture, to straighten the kink in the lower bowel. Lifting of the tail(bone) and semi-squatting have to be important, as they are so widespread in the animal kingdom, and as Christine has observed, the only difference between quadrupeds and bipeds is the shape of the lumbar spine. I think we can utilise WW posture to optimise this. (BTW, this is not my theory, simply a re-application of Christine's winding up theory, in a different context.)

I had some bowel trouble this morning with a smallish, hard stool at the beginning. Stressful and over-energetic day yesterday, working in the heat, and not drinking enough, but that is another story.

Then my bowel said, "no more movement happening". I had bulging perineum and anus, so I figured I had to get rid of that distension before trying again. So, up with the knickers, I had a bit more breakfast and a walk around outside and did a few little tasks involving squatting and ladder climbing (don't ask!), and the bulging went away. Eventually, after 45 minutes or so, the urge came on again. I sat there on the toilet reading for about five minutes without result, then took the following posture, even though the urge had dissipated.

Sitting right at the front of the toilet seat,
Knees well apart and as low as I could get them without falling off(!)
Feet on tippy toes so I could get as far forward and knees as low as possible,
Elbows leaning on a stool in front of me so I could allow my belly to droop over the front of the seat between my legs, and I could not physically strain.
Tailbone quite high but not forcefully.
Back quite saggy, so my rectus abdominus felt stretched.

Then I waited ...

A couple of minutes later, the required peristalsis kicked in, and voila, a very long poo emerged with no splinting at all!

I think what happened was that the rectus abdominus passively braced from underneath; the sacrum would have braced from the front, the tailbone was out of the way above and the pelvic floor had an opening at the back, though it was taut. The fact that the pelvic floor muscles were quite taut prevented the distension I had earlier. The loose belly and sagging of the back would have moved my uterus and bladder well inside my body and the vagina would have stretched inwards and taken the rectum with it. This is the 'winding up' part. This would have created a 'final straight' for the proverbial sprint to the finish line.

It is now four hours later, and my body is telling me that my bowel is indeed empty. It feels really good.

Having read this far, I would appreciate it if some of you could try and get your brains around what I have surmised and give me some feedback on these ideas. I know that many Members have rectocele and that most of this group will have 'a poo or too' over the next few days. Tell me if it helps, and keep an eye-spy on any animals you catch with their furry little knickers down.

Cheers

Louise

chester

December 2, 2009 - 8:56am

Hi Louise, Just after reading your post, I had an urge to poo, so I tried your posture, usually I sit back on the potty and most of the time the poos come out flattened and squished, well this time using your posture (a few adjustments) I had a normal poo, not squished, not flattened, to coin a phrase of a friend of mine in Essendon Victoria, (who by the way used to take Polaroid photos of her poos) it came out like a buttered snake. I was so relieved, because it all came out not just bits and pieces and I felt empty. I must admit it felt like I was trying to get my head up my bum, but who cares, it worked and it makes so much sense when you think of our anatomy and then think our how our bits and pieces inside have been shoved around by babies and doctors giving us internals etc. Thanks again for the advice. Chester.

Christine

December 2, 2009 - 10:03am

Louise...this is a gem. You have taken the WW forward-leaning posture and extended it so that even advanced rectocele pockets would have to be straightened out. Thank you!

I found a brand-new article the other day stating that women who assume "abnormal postures" while urinating demonstrate "dysfunction" and further indication for surgery.

Your insight is extremely valuable.

Cheers,

Christine

nikki4444

December 2, 2009 - 10:31am

Ok - just tried to mimic this position while sitting at my desk. I think I get what Louise is doing. I'm going to try it next time. I've been using the squatting position as seen on the "Nature's Platform" site and it works for me. But, in trying to get my brain around where our organs are and the pressure that is exerted on them during evacuation I just don't see how this squatting position can be good for the bladder or uterus. Squatting in this position seems to move the anterior organs back more toward the opening. This new position would move those organs forward over the pubic bone. Yes!! I just need something like this to give me hope. I'm excited to try (is that too wierd to say I'm excited for my next poo?) :-)

kiki

December 2, 2009 - 1:32pm

i feel a bit dense here, but i'm not quite getting it in a way that doesn't leave me falling over...picture anyone?

thank you as always louise for your brilliance...

(btw, great to hear others perineums bulge. mine only does just at the last moment some of the time, but good it is not alone in the world...thank you!)

mom30

December 2, 2009 - 9:50pm

When you "go", I know the feeling that it all hasn't come out. But, is it never ending wiping for you, or can you wipe and all is clean except for the way up stuck feeling? I can usually go okay, but then the stuck part leaves me with endless wiping. Even while reaching up the v to help it.

chester

December 3, 2009 - 9:22am

Hi Louise, I cannot thank you enough for your observations of the wildlife. This is day two of the "posture", the feeling I have after is incredible, everything came out, I don't have to spend the rest of the day wondering how many more times do I have to go before I am finished (last Wednesday it was 7) It will save on water, (we have to haul our water 10 miles in 1,000 gal. tanks) Has anyone else tried Louise's posture? I think we should name it, how about LoPo, Louises Posture, any suggestions. I know I am a newbie and if my posts get too long, please somebody tell me, or if my language is too colorful.
Thanks again Louise.

gemommy

December 3, 2009 - 11:17am

Thanks so much for sharing this, Louise. I tried it this morning, but could not get it to work. I think being 28 weeks pregnant has something to do with it. I will keep trying. I'm very determined. Maybe others will post more tips once they get the hang of it.

chester

December 3, 2009 - 12:25pm

Hi, adding to the posture of animals. Every one that I have watched has their spine rounded, whether they are sucking their stomachs in or not,on the horses they raise their stomachs. I know it works for me, I just have to get more comfortable, any suggestions. One tremendous advantage is that my rectum does not protrude as much as it did, I guess it is not doing as much of the work as it used to and the position that I am in takes the pressure away from the perineum. Chester

kiki

December 3, 2009 - 2:56pm

that's great news chester. so glad to hear it ;-)

still would love a picture...(does not have to be taken on teh toilet btw...) anyone able to upload?

chester

December 3, 2009 - 4:34pm

Sorry Louise, no photos, it's bad enough that both the dogs come in and sit beside me,(now that would be a photo) lock on the bathroom door is broken. I guess that they can't understand what the heck I am doing. Chester

AnneH

December 3, 2009 - 9:08pm

Hmmmm..... worth a try, very interesting. Very interesting!

saddleup

December 3, 2009 - 10:16pm

To Chester:

The way these posts stack up, it's hard to target the reply to the correct entry. However, with regards to a certain posture, how about "Loo Poo" both to honor Louise and describe the function? Hey, we're all just trying to move our vowels.

louiseds

December 4, 2009 - 4:16am

I wonder what the writer of the article regards as normal posture, or abnormal posture? My comment would be that whatever the writer regards as normal or abnormal does not matter. If a person can use their body to overcome an injury without other intervention, then who has the problem? The poor, naive, rejected surgeon, that's who! Boo-hoo.

L

louiseds

December 4, 2009 - 6:25am

Hey guys (gals)

I am cracking up over this name thing! Maybe this is going to be my contribution to world peace and reversing global warming, all rolled into one. I can see it on my headstone with gold infill, "Here lies Louiseds, inventor of LoPo". I wonder what they will make of it in years to come! I think that naturopathic doctor was right. I am a wacko! Long live wackos!

Saddleup, I never realised that horses hold the stomach up, bracing I guess?. Maybe the pelvic tilt is a definite feature of it, just like second stage of labour? I don't want to try and make LoPo fit WW posture. I really just want to figure out what are the necessary features of the optimum emptying position. I still go back to semi-squat with the tail lifted. I wonder what happens muscle-wise if you tilt the pelvis and lift the tail at the same time, as well as semi-squatting. It feels to me like I am activating and bracing every muscle in the area, including the pelvic floor. Whether it be setting the semi-squat, ie the angle of the thighbones to the pelvic bones (which takes some effort), or lifting the tail(bone), which is in opposition to tilting of the pelvis. The rectus abdominus feels quite plank-like, but it slopes towards the ground if your belly is low enough, so gravity sends the pelvic organs towards the sternum, even if the rectus abdominus is braced (like a horse). The spine is diagonal. The question is whether you can get the belly low enough so the organs are on the downward slope of the belly when you consciously brace (but not strain downwards) to evacuate.

Gemommy, I think your uterus at 28 weeks is in a different situation. Aza and I have been trying to work out how the uterus grows during pregnancy. Aza tells me there is nothing in her midwifery texts about endopelvic fascia. She thinks, and I agree with her, that it is the top and the front of the uterus which expands, so that the fallopian tubes and don't end up being stretched up to the ribcage (and the fimbria don't lose their relation to the ovaries for attaining the next pregnancy). If there is a big uterus pressing downwards on the top of the vagina with the pelvis tilted slightly, it is going to be very difficult to stretch the vagina out so it is longer, and can drag the rectum with it. Hence the importance of letting your belly and uterus hang out front. Use gravity to stretch the vagina!

Kiki, you were worried about falling over. Did you just balance there like a Tyrranosaurus 'Regina'? Or did you use a stool to put your elbows or hands on? The TR position probably gives more bracing in the pelvic area if your upper body is cantilevered out front. I don't think I would go as far as to kneel on a 'communion rail' with elbows on the standing up bit, because you lose the need to tighten all those internal pelvic muscles. The visuals are rather interesting here! ;-) But I think the less sitting, the better. It is the active engagement of all the pelvic muscles that seems to firm up the structures around the rectum.

As an afterthought, I am thinking the thinner the sausage the better. If it is thin, then you know that the rectum is not distended at all, nor is the rectocele. 'Three times around the bowl and pointed both end' would be the benchmark. It has to be easier to fit a thin, kinked pipe rather than a fat, kinked pipe, into a confined space, and still keep the flow going. Less likelihood of fissures too. I have such a serious expression on my face while I type this, it makes me break into a broad grin just thinking about it! :-)

Ree wiping and wiping, the first time I did LoPo I was in that situation. I could feel that there was plenty of stool in there because the whole anal area was pushed out. I figured I wasn't going to get anywhere, so I went outside and did some garden things that needed ladder climbing and squatting; lots of thigh and ab work. Then the distension just went away. Given time, and something to eat the bowel starts moving again. If you can get LoPo happening without disstension, LoPo works. If you get distension again I think you just have to go do something else to mould it back to long and thin. The WW ballet workout with its plies and releves and leg swings would be ideal.

I really just think wiping and wiping is just an irritating symptom of the incomplete empty. Who wants stains in their knickers??? It is the thought of it more than anything which makes it so yukky. It feels like you are not properly potty trained. I am sure it is vigorous exercise and contracted, braced muscles that massages the bowel into the shape it is supposed to have.

Any more animal watchers out there?

Louise

saddleup

December 4, 2009 - 10:22am

Well, Louise, I'm usually on the horse when it needs to do something, but one can always watch Nature On Parade at a horse farm. Horses can let the manure fly while galloping, if they wish, though many like to stop and deliberate. They always stand still and brace their legs when urinating. The rider accomodates this pose by standing in the stirrups to remove her weight from the horse's back. This also moves us a bit farther away from possible fallout.

Lifting the tail and bracing the legs wide apart keeps urine and excrement from soiling their lovely coats and tails. Later, they make up for this hygienic behavior when they lie down in their stalls or roll in the dirt. Mares, which are sexually intact, lift their tails high and squirt urine out behind them, which totally excites whatever geldings are nearby. The boys can smell the pheromones but don't quite know what to do next.

For us humans, I think that lifting the tailbone while on the loo aids in elimination and helps keep those pelvic organs in a forward position. Excellent observations, Sherlock.

Saddleup

chester

December 4, 2009 - 12:42pm

Hi Saddleup, Thanks for the comments. I get what you mean, so many posts, not too sure where they came from etc. I watched my dogs this morning doing their business, spines are curved, heads seem neutral, crouched, but unlike us their bums are lower, so the way they are built as opposed to us, it all seems to go together, anyway I don't really care how it works I just know it does. As for the horses, I have one goofy guy who lifts one leg when he urinates, I guess they don't like it to splash their legs. No matter what it is as long as it all comes out. Now the name, should we have a vote on it, because it has to be named, of course in honor of Louise. Good pun.

louiseds

December 5, 2009 - 8:19am

Hi Chester and Saddleup

LOL to both of you. Chester, maybe your horse thinks he is a dog. Saddleup, maybe the horses (and dogs) stand with their feet apart for reasons of how their body urinates best, rather than protection of their coat. As you say, the rolling behaviour rather negates the hygiene argument. However, horses living in the paddock like rolling around in a sand bath. They often seem to like to do this after a hose down too. I thought it was more about getting some dust into their coats to deter skin parasites, but I can imagine that they roll in horrid smelling stuff for the same reason as dogs, ie because they think the smell is useful to have on their coat. Now if I was a flea or a mite, I would abandon ship immediately! And as you say one animal's perfume is another animal's stink.

I know why I stand with my feet well apart when I have a wee out of doors, but maybe there are functional reasons as well!

Keep up the debate. I don't really mind what we eventually call 'optimum posture for pooing'. You guys sort it out. I am off for a pre-Christmas fishing trip. See you back here a few days before Christmas.

Cheers

Louise

aza

December 8, 2009 - 12:33am

How can this be called anything other than LooPoo?!
Christine (or anyone who feels inclined) can you please explain this statement: You have taken the WW forward-leaning posture and extended it so that even advanced rectocele pockets would have to be straightened out.
I think I get what you are saying here but would love some more clarification.
Also, kangaroos don't seem to move a muscle nor lift the tail when they poo, but then again they have very small little pellets (which incidentally can be used for fire starting material when dry, who knew?!) I am not sure if I am getting the posture correct, but I find it very uncomfortable and more of a hindrance to pooing.....I have no rectocele or POP of any kind. How does this fit in with what the posture is altering to make it more effective for women with POP but (seemingly) more of a hindrance for someone without? Would kill for diagrams!!

chester

December 14, 2009 - 2:40pm

Just a minor update on the LooPoo. I am having great success with this, minor adjustments include making sure my abs are all tightened up before I lean forward, if I don,t I have an awful pain in the inside of the hip bone, don't know why, also making sure one is at the front of the potty, otherwise awful mess. I have also started taking psyllium at night time it seems to work way better, plus I take the capsules which are easier, did try the larch fibre but not sure if it did a thing except give me way more gas than ever before. On the horses urinating, they open their legs wide and stretch out so as the pee does not splash them, very rarely will a horse pee on hard ground,e.g. more splashing. Our weather is so cold right now last week was minus 29F. today is a heat wave it is only minus 2F. I have to walk a mile to feed and water horses (round trip) when I get back from that I really have to poo. All this thanks to Louise's brilliant observations of the wildlife. Cheers to LooPoo. Hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas. Chester.

louiseds

December 26, 2009 - 8:25am

Well co-pooers, I am back from camping. Have had more success rectocele-wise with LooPoo. I have eliminated splinting entirely for the last few weeks, which is kind of nice. Once the rectocele descends, I think all I can do is evacuate a little and try again later when it comes down again. However, as Chester pointed out, bracing all your abdominals before sitting down is helpful in keeping the bowel long and thin. I found this too. Then you just have to visualise what is happening and trust your body to follow.

I know that leaning forward, and maximising the area of the pelvic floor will tighten it. Lifting the 'tail' is part of this. I have found that it makes the poo hole smaller and the stool longer and thinner. Aza, this may be why you find that it hinders evacuation? (Because it does!) But it also stretches out the bottom part of the bowel (longer and thinner too!). The pelvic floor is designed to let things out (babies, poo and wee). Sexual penetration is really the only example of letting things in. Aza, if you don't have any difficulty emptying your bowel it probably means it is all working OK, and you don't even have to think about it, but I agree that tightening the pelvic floor seems a bit counterintuitive.

I think it is the internal lengthwise stretching along with tightening the PF which is what makes it work. If the sausage is thin when it is inside the bowel it can fit through a small hole easily, even if it is very long ;-) Goodness me, did I just write that? Making all the muscles surrounding the rectum wind up tight during evacuation reinforces the weakened fascia, so the rectocele finds it harder to distend into the vagina! It just makes the hose firmer and thinner and straighter, so the force pushing the poo out will all go down the tube instead of getting directed sideways into the vagina.

Feedback please.

L

kiki

December 26, 2009 - 11:49pm

so my problem is that it may work eventually, but then i lose the urge in this position...
if all is flowing well it does work great and you are right Louise, no splinting. hurray! but if i'm the slightest bit constipated (which happens if i simply breathe wrong these days it seems!), then not so good.... especially as in that case everything has already moved down and distended, creating the opposite of ideal in every respect!
on a good note it does take the pressure off the perineum which equals less fissures which is great since they are ongoing right now, but it's teh loss of urge that causes a problem.
any thoughts?

louiseds

December 27, 2009 - 8:58am

Hi Kiki

Yes, I seem to lose the urge too, which is disappointing at the time. But I can see that it is because the stool gets squashed and is no longer distending the rectum into the vagina. Later, I will have a normal shaped poo. However, I agree. The reduction of pressure on the perineum is a bonus! So glad the fissures are less. I don't think it is a magic bullet. It just seems to normalise things a bit.

L

louiseds

January 9, 2010 - 1:43am

Hi Wholewomen

I just had another Aha! moment about pooing. It is just like giving birth!

My theory: You know how during the last part of a pregnancy the lumbar curve straightens, tipping the pelvis backwards a bit (counternutating)? This straightens the passage for the foetus's head to (normally) get right down into the pelvis with the head turned sideways, held back by the ischial spines, and with the pelvic floor slack so that the head can push it open. Then the foetus's head turns once it passes through the cervix so that its face is towards the mother's coccyx, and the crown pushes the mother's coccyx out of the way. This causes the pelvis to counternutate again and the ischial spines to separate and allow the shoulders to emerge through the pelvic diaphragm. This nutation of the pelvis also makes the pelvic floor increase in area once more, so it closes around the lower head and ensures that it is squeezed out, like toothpaste out of a tube. As the pelvis nutates back towards normal the pelvic inlet (at the top) decreases in size and assists the birth of the baby's body by pushing inwards and assisting the uterus to push down (or give the cervix something to pull up against. Thus the second stage is accompanied by a change from the foetus being pushed down by the contraction of the uterus to being pulled out by the change in shape of the birth canal. I have observed this with birth of lambs, the pause after the birth of the head. No doubt many members will relate to the pause before the birth of the shoulders. Then on the next contraction the shoulders and the rest of the body follow, like an egg yolk plooping out of the half shell with its own weight when you are separating yolk and white, not like a gob of sauce exploding out of the bottle when you apply pressure to the bottle. The birth of the body is a natural movement, not an explosion. Yeah, I know it doesn't always go that way, but in a perfect world...

In fact, it is just like the end of a big fat stool. A great relief. (Good visuals here. Big fat satisfied smile!)

So...

When you feel the need for a big poo, that is like being late in pregnancy. Here is a technique to add. sit on the pan and open the pelvic outlet by rocking back to slacken the pelvic floor, and allow the first part of the stool to come down and through the open floor, then rock forwards very, very slowly, lifting the coccyx and closing the pelvic floor, which will squeeze the back end of the stool out. Then rock back to allow some more to come down, then when you can feel it there, rock forward again very slowly once you think there is enough outside to be squeezed through. The other effect of rocking forward is stretching the bowel out, a la LoPo, which makes it easier for the next stool to move forwards in the rectum.

Well, that's the theory anyway. Aza and Christine, do you think I have the birth process OK? If not, please correct me so women are not reading my drivvel adn being mislead by it.

I just used this technique with great success when I knew there was more to come but couldn't get it to move along. It explains why rocking backwards and forwards works. Once again, no splinting needed. Yippee!!

Cheers

Louise

aza

January 9, 2010 - 7:56pm

I think you are pretty spot on, Louise. The lumbar curve at the end of pregnancy depends a lot on the position of the baby, in my experience. The more anterior the baby is (baby's back at the front rather than against the mother's spine), the more pronounced the lumbar curve is. Babies usually don't get low enough to be directly anterior until they hit the ischial spines and pelvic floor, as you say, though I have seen some women with incredibly roomy inlets that allowed for really deeply engaged and therefor almost directly OA heads long before labour started.
I will say that it is generally the babies sinciput (forehead, front of skull) that is in contact with the coccyx rather than the crown of the head. When a baby turns to OA and comes down the curve of the sacrum, it does so by extension of the head. The body doesn't actually move farther down because the shoulders are coming into the pelvis side to side at the inlet and won't rotate to obligue to be born (and therefor descend deeper into the pelvis) until the head is out and they can rotate and pivot their way down. Hospitals are notorious for rushing this part; no wonder they see so much shoulder dystocia.
But, I digress.
Birthing and pooing, YES, there are so many similarities. At some point with both experiences, the body reaches a point of no return. What is in must come out and that is all there is to it. With birthing, the head of the baby on the pelvic floor (Ferguson's nerve. Another part of our gina's named after someone with a penis) triggers the fetal ejection reflex and the uterus does some amazing maneuvers to push the baby out. Women birthing non-medicated and unhindered will often curl over and round out their whole spine at the beginning of this reflex but then straighten out, arch their lower back/lumbar curve, and nutate the pelvis sharply forward. The point of no return with birth is somewhere in this...is it when the uterus begins the curling over at the top involuntary pushing contractions, or is it when the head is finally born and the rest follows like the egg yolk as you describe? When is that point with pooing? Is there a poo ejection reflex?! I suppose this would be called peristalsis, eh? Off to ponder...

aza

January 9, 2010 - 8:08pm

When women are drugged (aka epidural) and the physiology of pushing and the fetal ejection reflex are altered, a method used in hospitals to trigger the involuntary pushing phenomenon is to put pressure on the bowel with a couple of fingers to mimic the feeling of the baby's head in there and trigger that Fergi nerve plexus. This may be a dumb question - I have zilch experience with rectoceles - but do you think this happens in some capacity with splinting? Any chance it could stimulate expulsion, or is it simply mechanical method of directing the stool out?

Ribbit

January 9, 2010 - 8:30pm

Y'all crack me up! (Pun intended.)

I just found out I have a prolapsed cervix, uterus, bladder and colon, after my 4th baby. That's a long story and I'll post it somewhere else.

I read this whole thread earlier today and couldn't wait to try Louise's Posture. Of course I had to wait...and wait....and wait......I've been having a terrible time with....well, the same thing all of you have problems with. I can't poo and I have to push on my front to pee. My belly has gone from a size 10 to suddenly a size 14+ and I don't think it's supposed to work that way when you're breastfeeding. *rolls eyes* So anyway, I tried the LoPo and it worked! I pooed! I never thought I would be so excited about something like this.

I'm much relieved.

And y'all are a hoot.

Thanks for all the laughs and jokes. It makes me feel better about things.

louiseds

January 10, 2010 - 7:19pm

Hi Ribbit

Look, this whole refining understanding of how to poo most efficiently when you have rectocele has only just started a few weeks ago. Please don't think it is at full understanding stage or anywhere near it. I am so glad that it worked for you that time, but don't be too disillusioned if it doesn't work next time. Getting your bowel to empty might turn into a multi-stage process, first using one posture, then using another one later in the day for the second go.

I really think that we have to unlearn the idea that we all need to have one big poo, straight off, and over and done in 30 seconds. We need to banish the thought that The Archangel Gabriel will solemnly shake his big haloed head sympathetically send us on our way when we get to the Pearly Gates. We need to listen to our bodies and try to understand what is really happening, because nobody seems to really know. Real pioneering stuff. I can see it on my gravestone now! I really always wanted to be remembered as the woman who demystified 'Pooing With Rectocele 101'.

Please continue to post and let us know any tricks you find or any points of understanding that you happen upon. All over the world women are rediscovering their ability to evacuate. It's a bit like inventing the wheel, really. ;-)

Eventually we will have a whole raft of tools, in a metaphorical sense, of course. We all hope tool-less pooing can be accomplished by any woman with rectocele, just by understanding the body and working out how to use it better.

Looking forward to your longer post.

Cheers

Louise

louiseds

January 10, 2010 - 10:22pm

There is an urge to defeacate reflex. Here is a simple description of it, http://www.stmarkshospital.org.uk/uploads/docs/patientinformationleaflet... .

Actually the nerve feedback at evacuation is very complicated. I once found a powerpoint presentation about the neurophysiology of the gastrointestinal tract, but I have lost the bookmark somewhere in an operating system re-install. Sigh ...

I think splinting can put pressure on the inner sphincter, and stimulate more stool to be ejected, but it is not as simple as this, cos I think the anals sphincters can be quite hard to find while splinting. I think rectocele is often not as simple as a kink in the pipe (which exists normally anyway). I think sometimes retum curls around like a rope when you lower one end of it to the floor, then the stools have to spiral out, not just get around the bend. When I get seriously constipated, my whole anal area and perineum bulge outwards. I am wondering if this is because my hooked coccyx does not provide any support for it at the back. I have never found anything about the role of the coccyx in supporting the anus and rectum. I guess there has to be fascia between the rectum and coccyx, and mine would be well and truly tangled up! This bulging was what first interested me in how animals (without a coxxyx) prevent this bulging while evacuating!

Louise

Christine

January 11, 2010 - 11:00pm

Hi Louise,

I find it very interesting that the human sacrum is concave. The animal sacrum is flat, not concave, nor is the human infant sacrum.

That concavity must come from some moulding process over time. It would have to correlate with standing posture + intraabdominal pressure. The part of the rectum at the level of S3 is called the “sacral flexure” and the rectum is always described as taking the same route/axis/shape as the sacrum. I have not found mention of the rectum moulding itself into the sacrum with increases in intraabdominal pressure, but there is really nothing else that could cause the sacrum to assume this concavity over time.

If it is normal for the rectum to mould into the sacrum with little increases in pressure, it would have to also be normal for the rectum to press even more firmly into the sacrum with large increases in pressure.

Bear in mind that Western medicine has conceptualized and drawn the pelvis with an almost 90-degree backward rotation from what we know is actual. In gynecologic literature, the rectum is sometimes even drawn as lying horizontally upon a horizontal pelvic floor. It is interesting that in non-gynecologic illustrations the rectum is always portrayed vertically. Well, I think our concave sacrum proves that the rectum is indeed vertical - perhaps even tipping anteriorly a very few degrees. The vagina would have the same axis and so would the urethra.

With great increases in pressure the rectal vault must push into the sacrum and pressure against the sacral nerves might also be involved in the sensation of needing to evacuate. The full rectum is pushing UP against the ceiling of the pelvis, which is the horizontal sacrum.

When we do not allow that anatomy - i.e. straining against the toilet seat with a C-shaped spine, the pressure is transferred lower down the rectum. The natural anterior curvature at the base of the rectum blows out bigger and balloons into the back vaginal wall.

Reassuming natural posture (half squat) to evacuate redirects intraabdominal pressure at the level of the sacral flexure of the rectum into the concavity of the sacrum. Slowly, the fascia heals and the anterior curvature of the lower rectum recedes.

When you lay flat out in LoPo posture, you are positioning the bowel in an optimum way - just like it is positioned in quadrupeds. The rectum must press up into the sacrum instead of blowing out the lower vaginal wall.

:) Christine

louiseds

January 12, 2010 - 10:58pm

Further to my last post, I can remember seeing horses pooing. The whole anal area does distend sometimes, maybe when the horse is having a lot of hay, which makes for bulky, quite dry stools. Maybe this does happen in other animals, but often they have so much fur/hair that we don't see it? Also, horses have quite a meaty rump, so the anus is set back quite a bit into their 'buttocks'. A bit like humans really. Perhaps the distension I get is normal. I am not normally in the habit of feeling around my anus when there is a poo coming out, so I have no idea! Maybe I am pathologising something that is very normal?

This concave sacrum has me thinking too. Does it become concave as standing and walking become easier to get around than crawling, ie going from quadruped to biped? Or does it happen later in life? Hmm, I just realised that babies start to potty train themselves around the age of two. Is there a relationship?

L

Ribbit

January 23, 2010 - 10:27pm

Well, the poo is happening, thanks to you, Louise. It still doesn't happen nearly often enough, but at least it's happening. I rarely get an urge. Very frustrating. I have added a little to the forward-on-toes idea. I can't lean on just my thighs because all my muscles are so weak right now. So I put both the palms of my hands on the very front rim of the toilet seat (between my thighs) and lean on them as well as on the backs of my thighs. Can't do this at a public toilet, obviously, but it works at home. I can relax more if I'm leaning on my hands. I also use this posture for peeing. I couldn't empty all the way and I had a constant UTI. Now it's finally getting better.

louiseds

January 24, 2010 - 12:55am

Yay!!!

cararosesmum

February 2, 2010 - 5:15am

Ladies,

there probably is already an answer to this somewhere, but I can't find it, so I hope someone can shed some light for me.

I've been watching my diet (mostly) and taking psyllium and manage to have a poo most mornings without any need to push etc. However, by later in the day my bowels feel quite full, but I don't have an actual real urge to poo. That is, if I go and sit on the toilet nothing comes out. I've tried rocking etc, but it feels like my poo is sitting just inside my anus and not moving. But I really do feel full, and like I would be more comfortable if I could just do a big poo.

The other day I really felt like I would be more comfortable if I did poo, so I tried splinting (yuk), and it just felt like I'd pushed the rectocele further down. In fact, since I tried it my POPs have been worse. I was desperate to get rid of the full feeling though, so I may have inadvertantly strained.

So, my question is, having (generally) had an easy poo in the morning, how can I void my bowels later in the day? I don't feel any kind of movement in the bowel, to the point where I'm wondering if I have a spastic bowel or something. So, the poo is definitely there, it's just not moving down at all. To be graphic (I'm sure you don't mind), if I put my finger up my bum I can feel there is a poo there, it just doesn't want to come out.

I'm a bit annoyed with myself, coz I was doing the posture and the workout and feeling pretty great and it looked like things were really improving.Then I got poo obsessed, and in my efforts to empty appear to have set everything back on it's descent again. Most frustrating.

louiseds

February 2, 2010 - 8:18am

Oh dear Cararosesmum, I do know how you feel, because I get a similar thing.I used to worry about it but gave it up because it only stressed me out. I have posted about this before, but here goes. I think my brain gets its signals crossed. It feels like a full bowel, but I don't think it is. I think it is a half-full bowel that has a heap of intestines lying on top of it, or crossing over it, and pressing down on it, so it thinks it is full. Or maybe there is another kink in the pipe up there, so there is a backlog behind the kink, up higher. I think I can even perceive two different sensations when I think about them. One is full bowel, which is quite low, but this other one is quite high up, probably higher than the bottom of the sacrum. It is more pressure than fullness. I feel fullness right at the outer anal sphincter.

So what do I do about it? If I need a poo I have one, then when/if there isn't any more, I do a LoPo to try and get my guts stretched out by bracing in a half squat, ready for next time, when a real poo will come, pull up my knickers and get on with the day. Eventually a poo happens or two or three smaller ones sa couple of hours apart. The thing I do notice is that they are all quite slim, 20mm max in diameter and usually quite soft, which pleases me no end, and no straining. Slimmer poos are longer, so it seems like you are pooing for ever, but it is probably no more. It just means you have several visits. Does it really matter if you have several smaller poos, if there is no straining? I haven't splinted for a couple of months now. Yes, I have had a feel through the vaginal wall, and there is no evidence of a big lump of stool ready to evacuate. It must be higher up, cos I can feel the pressure sensation while having a feel, but it is not near where I am feeling. It is *not* ready to lay! Can't argue with that! Hope that helps, even just to know that you are not the only one.

I would add that while you are learning there is a lot of movement of organs happening on the inside. If you are moving your uterus and bladder up, and stretching your rectum up higher, there has to be a lot of intestines moving into different spots to take their places.

Louise

heavenly

August 4, 2010 - 11:31am

Yup, The rec. thing is a killer when pocket is full and bulging. Bladder etc and cys I don't think is the problem. When bulge is full then I feel the bulge in the other place.LOL I don't like to eat fiber in the morning because sometimes I feel I have to poo in the afternoon and that is where the trouble starts. Don't have too much problem in the mornings, just afternoons. Sometimes have to suffer til the next morning. Most time the rectal bulge causes some hemmroide issues for a while, probably from the pressure. I am going to try your suggestion and let you know.
Thanks
Heavenly
It is all trial and error, looking into Mayan Massage and looks interesting. I found how to do it yourself, also have been researching plain abdominal massage. Also studying the anatomy, imagine that at 62. Didn't even know where the liver was or how the stomach related to pressure on the intestines. No wonder a natura path said eat low density foods and even baby food if I could. I had worked with him years ago until he quit and moved to Montana. I called him a couple of months ago and that was his suggestion. No baby food for me I hope. He said the worst thing is fear and stress and worry on the body, and I know that. I would suggest to anyone to restudy the anatomy seriously. It really gives you a different perspective on the direction you should take.
Bye For Now, gotta eat an apple LOL

heavenly

August 4, 2010 - 11:37am

All my family says is can we talk about somethng today other than poo issues and how you got it out or didn't.LOL I think they are starting to avoid me. When they come in I hear them say to my husband, I imagine mom is in the bathroom trying to do her thing. LOL

Poo Obsessed #2
Love,
Heavenly

colehollow

August 4, 2010 - 12:15pm

Try Collinsonia for hemmroids. Even at half dose it takes total care of my hemmroid pain. One problem not to worry about. I take the Standard Process brand.

heavenly

August 4, 2010 - 3:23pm

I wonder if others with rec have that problem? What do you think? Thanks for getting back to me. I will try that friend.
Heavenly

heavenly

August 5, 2010 - 6:05am

Above all else the poo issue is the biggest for me. Bulging, panic and all the rest that goes with it. Rectoceles are just "something else." Been reading all the posts on the poo issues we have. Great insite but still can't get the anatomy in my head and hope I will be doing the the poo right. Have not really tried it yet cause afraid I will do it wrong and hurt something.LOL Don't need anything else to go wrong. Please keep the poo info coming and I will share when I have something of interest to share. You ladies have just about said it all. I get up every morning and head for the site to see who has pooed and who has not. Love Ya All
Heavenly

Ribbit

September 1, 2010 - 7:49pm

I've been having some trouble again and I keep having to remind myself to really lean forward and relax that lower belly.

gardengirl

September 1, 2010 - 8:50pm

Now this forum should be essential reading for all- even if just to be able to have a big laugh. Put it in the housekeeping section!

Bea

September 2, 2010 - 11:08pm

Louise, your discussion on the loo poo was very helpful. Since reading it I have played around with some different pooing postures. The one I find most successful is squatting with my feet actually on the toilet seat itself. The back of my thighs and calves touch, I lean forward and let my belly hang. I have not had to strain on the toilet since I started doing this.

- Bea

louiseds

September 3, 2010 - 1:23am

goood! Whatever works, without effort. I am glad there are doors on public toilets! ;-)

I haven't had to used contrived positions for pooing for a long while now. I think I must have repositioned my organs quite well, and they seem to stay there. I think getting on top of constipation is the main challenge. Hopefully it will be the same for you eventually, but there are no guarantees.

roseredhoofbeats

September 5, 2012 - 1:18pm

I am bumping this thread up!! I just tried this and it worked beautifully! I'm 26 weeks with twins and trying to poop has been an exercise in frustration since I was about 8 weeks.

I didn't have the best visual picture of what the OP was describing and how I could do it with my big belly, so I tried to think of the posture I've seen countless horses in while they were eliminating. They don't just lift their tails, they brace them outwards a bit and straighten them, with their heads up and shoulders brought back together. (This will make much more sense if you've ever ridden bareback on a horse that decided to take a pit stop...)

I had my feet splayed out in front of me, knees apart, perched up over my pubic bones and with my tailbone extended out. Put my hands on my knees with elbows flexed and pointed straight back, like wings. Extended my neck so my chin was sticking out, with my shoulders pulled back with the blades closer together.

I didn't have to splint at all, it wasn't painful, and it was "normal" shaped! Awesome!

Surviving60

September 6, 2012 - 6:16am

Thank you hoofbeats for finding this thread and bringing it back up to the top. Let's keep it going, it's a must-read for everyone! - Surviving

takecare

September 6, 2012 - 8:18am

Would love a step by step on this.
Then I will print it off and take it to the loo with me when I get the urge.
Had the worst morning with a horrendous bulge and I waited and waited - to the point of my vision pulsating - things were stuck.
Eventually with a little more lumbar curvature and leaning forward it made a clean exit.
However - I bled for 15 minutes!!! Am hoping it was a fissure or haemorrhoid no way am I heading back for another colonoscopy.
Any chance we could have a document on this to print off within easy reach ...?
I am not sure I have a good mental picture as there is quite a lot of dialogue here.

Surviving60

September 6, 2012 - 8:32am

Takecare, I see the step-by-step up there in Louise's first post. Maybe she can do an update, based upon the ensuing 3 years of experience! - Surviving

takecare

September 6, 2012 - 8:45am

Thanks Surviving, I see that now - there was so much to read through I lost track.
Louise has mentioned she rarely splints now so it is obviously working well for her and others.
Would love a review of the loo poo .... :)

louiseds

September 8, 2012 - 6:29am

If it gets stuck, just accept it, pull your knickers up and go and do something else until the urge strikes again after something to eat. Our dogs often do that, when there is something exciting about to happen. They don't worry that they are not able to get it all out in one nice, neat curled up sausage. Any patch of dirt will do them later on. They are so lucky to be able to poo anywhere. Nobody expects them to hang on until they find a nice clean toilet when they get home. On the contrary, ours wait until they are out and about to have a poo. Strange that we are so different.

Getting upset about it will only make your poos withdraw and get more shy. Let them have their way. It takes a while to develop that trust in your body again after it has let you down. Just keep trying to let it do its own thing.

Louise

FiveMinutesPeace

January 5, 2015 - 1:04pm

It is golden, thanks! The talk of stretching out the rectum is particularly interesting as I'm not sure if I have a rectocele, but am pretty certain there's a small rectal prolapse going on. I haven't found much mention of that on these boards.

I've found myself naturally gravitating to a posture something like Louise describes, but I'm going to try increasing the angle toward the floor and see what happens...

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