Prolapse

Hi Jeannie

Christine may not respond for a few days, as she is trying to get her new DVD finished, so we can all benefit from it. Perhaps I could comment, first by getting some clarification? I am the Louise quoted on that website.

What do you mean by "bracing"? I have some lumbar disc issues too.

Louise

Hi Jeannie

I figured that was what you meant by bracing. I have been through the same regimen myself, though I had one bulging disk and several ragged discs. I don't think the exercises reduced my back pain at all, but I did learn to isolate and strengthen the transverse abdominus muscle, that deep one you brace when you lift. I still brace my tummy muscles and can do it much better thanks to the time I spent learning to isolate and contract that transverse abdominus muscle when I lift, but I certainly do not suck it in. I brace my diaphragm and breathe for the duration of the lift with my intercostal (between the ribs) muscles as well. That gives me a big, strong, round, muscular barrel around the front of my spine. If I pull my tummy muscles in I have something more akin to a foam mattress supporting my spine. It is wide and thin, and prone to bending itself, so I don't think it gives my spine very much support at all. Having said that, I use WW posture, so my tummy goes in a gradual curve from the bottom of my ribcage to my pelvic bones except for the pad of fat below my belly button, and it is quite firm all the time because it is slightly stretched because my ribcage is lifted slightly. I cannot actually pull it in much at all because it is so firm. Before I used WW posture I could pull it in a long way, particularly if I tucked my butt under. I firmly believe that all the tummy sucking and butt tucking was responsible for my injured back, rather than fixing them up, and I think these two manoeuvres contributed to my prolapses as well, by placing my pelvic organs over my vagina instead of over bone, where they now sit, particularly when I lift heavy weights.

Once you figure out this WW posture you will find that your tummy will be much firmer all the time, without pulling it in. Being 68 your muscles will need more work to strengthen than they did a few years back, but using them all the time, as we do in WW posture will strengthen them with everyday movement. I am just finding out about muscles losing strength, as I am 57 and just past menopause, I think. We need to work on strengthening our hips and thighs so we can use these big dense muscles to do the lifting, not relying on back and tummy muscles.

This is where Christine's ballet workout comes in. It is described in Saving the Whole Woman, which also has a CD of accompanying music. The music is quite hard to synch with the movements but you can just do them without the music, or just play the music as a cue for the exercises to keep you in the mood.;-) The workout is based on plies and rising up on your toes, and leg lifts, which exercise the whole body in its vertical orientation, rather than lying down. The First Aid for Prolapse DVD is much easier to follow but I think it is more demanding on your flexibility, and perhaps your strength. But you can do it at your own level.

These days I lift by bending well over from the hips, then squatting as deep as I can with my feet well apart and pointing outwards abour 45 degrees, and the object to be lifted directly under my shoulders. This puts my pelvic organs well forward so they are resting on my lower front abdominal wall. Then I puff out my tummy, brace my diaphragm, and all my abdominal and back mucsles, and lift using my thigh muscles and the muscles around my butt. Only when my knees are nearly straight do I straighten up, then do the last part of the lift with my arms if necessary, and my butt still out a bit. Bracing is absolutely essential, especially if you have to twist at the end, or pull to the side, which sometimes happens by accident. I use bag trolleys a lot, and I move things end over end, or walk them on their corners, or roll them, or even use a pinch bar to lever them along. I have a habit of shifting furniture and rocks and heavy stuff like that. I never push or pull as hard as I possibly can, but I can usually move things to where I want them by using my brains and some mechanical aids. If that doesn't work, I usually get some help, or decide that it doesn't need moving at all! I haven't had a single back trauma injury since I started WW posture, and I certainly had a few with the other way of doing things!

I hope this gives you a different perspective on lifting loads. There are some other reasons for doing it this way too. I will point you to explanations for them later on.

You really have to re-learn so much with Wholewoman techniques. I am not totally back pain free yet, but I certainly am better than I was.

Cheers

Louise

Louise, I have had a lot of lower back pain in my life, but things got so much better after I took to weight training, which I still do. The only exercise I know of for the lower back is "back extensions" which I do by lying on the floor on my front and repeatedly raising then lowering my head and shoulders, thus arching my back gently (a bit like the yoga posture called, I think, "the cobra", but without using the arms to raise the body, rather using only the lower back and buttock muscles). However, I always now feel nervous doing this because squashing my belly against the floor feels as if it might be also squashing my insides and squeezing my prolapsed organs in the wrong direction - like a tube of toothpaste. What do you think?

Hi Jeannie and Alix and Louise,

Louise has explained the subject so well and I can only add that I believe there is a misconception of what "bracing" should be. We "brace" in WW posture by lifting our chest, which creates a bit of the barrel effect Louise described. When we lift something heavy, we brace even more, so that our upper abdominal wall is puffed out and firm (lower belly relaxed). This results in an extremely strong and protective structure that positions everything inside our torso to take advantage of intraabdominal pressure, rather than be harmed by it. The conventional view of "bracing" or "corseting" is to pull the belly slightly in, which is counterproductive to the dynamics that protect our spine and pelvic organs.

If you are not making use of the natural shape of your spine - which is horizontal at the base - you are subject to straining and dislocating your sacroiliac joints. It is now common knowledge in orthopedic circles that the SIJs are the source of most of the back pain in our modern world and what remedies this condition is building up the musculature around lumbar lordosis, or lower back curvature. Disc problems will be a thing of the past when humanity finally returns to natural posture.

Alix's experience supports our theory very well. She exercises on the floor the exact same musculature that we do in WW posture. Either way, the muscles become strong and protective around a pronounced lumbar curvature. Don't worry about your pelvic organs, Alix, as they are falling naturally forward when your body is prone.

This work is for all women of all ages. If you have your uterus (because it is the hub of the wheel and the ceiling of the pelvic interior), there is no reason you can't experience real and lasting results by pulling back into your natural framework, from which your pelvic organs are suspended.

Welcome to Whole Woman!

Christine

Here’s an extreme example of lifting in WW posture. It’s *all* about lifting her chest and maintaining her lumbar curve. Male power lifters usually have HUGE upper bellies, which are constantly being inflated under great pressure. This woman actually has beautiful WW posture with the exception of her head/neck, which she ducks under the bar. Her abdominal wall is not pulled in, but gently curved from breastbone to pubic bone. She would be in great danger of blowing out her lumbar discs if she “braced” by sucking in her stomach and tucking under her tailbone before lifting. A lifted chest equals the ability to withstand great increases in intraabdominal pressure, and you cannot lift your chest while pulling in your belly as these are oppositional movements. (You can, but it throws your torso completely out of alignment.)

Christine, thank you so much for your reassurance that I am not making my POP worse by doing back extensions, and also for the superb video of the woman lifting big weights. Her pronounced lumbar curve is specially noticeable in the very last lift at the end - presumably because she exaggerated it to cope with her growing fatigue.

that is what we called that- I used to do that all the time in high school :)
at one time you commented that perhaps I learned a male 'form' for lifting (or something along those lines)- this is how we lifted- except we didn't go behind the head-just directly over- it was all about momentum and balance- but that was the posture for sure
similar posture for squats- we were coached to look at the ceiling with eyes not face-face pointing straight ahead

Hi Alix

Yes, I use these too, and as Christine says, it is fine to have gravity acting straight through the abdominal wall and on to the floor. I do notice that if I lift my head too high I do get pressure in the vulva, so I only just lift it enough so that its weight is not on the floor, and I do not get that horrible sensation.

I also have a variation which I think is better. I use it as a lower back loosener, and I don't know why it works, but it does. I found it in the warming down section of a bellydance DVD made by a woman who is a personal trainer. You lie on your front on the floor with your arms flat on the floor over your head. Lift your left arm and right leg *just* off the floor and hold for about ten to twenty seconds, then do the same with the, right arm and left leg. Do these a couple of times. Then come up onto hands and knees and do a similar thing, extending the right arm and left leg out, so there is a *straight* line from fingertips to toes. Hold for 10-20 then relax. Reverse the arms and legs so you do a couple on each side. The hands and knees version is probably better because it is a balancing challenge as well. The last step is to stay on your knees and lean forward with arms out front and shoulders as low as you can get them adn face on the floor (prayer position?) to stretch out the lower back for thirty seconds or so. I think these exercises work well together because the abs, back muscles, hip muscles and upper body muscles all contract strongly then stretch out as well, giving them their full range of movement.

Whatever you do, *you* will feel it if your organs are coming down. Just pull back a bit so the sensation goes away. I think a lot of the problem with exercise is knowing when to stop and when to pull back, and trying to do things in too much of a hurry (Poos included!). There will always be exercises that are potentially damaging for women with POP, but you will know them the first time you do them!

BTW, there are little extension on the spinal processes of the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae that turn downwards at the end. The purpose of this seems to be that when you lift with your lumbar curve intact each of these locks onto the one below it, and prevents the lumbar discs from shearing. It literally locks the spine together, as long as there is no twist happening at the same time.

Cheers

Louise

Thanks Louise. I think you're right about listening to one's body when exercising - the only trouble is, sometimes I get so tense worrying whether I am doing something harmful, anything is bound to feel bad! Maybe I should feel more free to experiment, always keeping in mind all I have learned here - after all I don't imagine 2 minutes of less than perfect exercise will do lasting harm. I'm looking forward to doing the variants you describe, when the large painful bruise on my right knee has healed! Meanwhile, what do you think about impact? I find running on grass has no bad effect, and now I am experimenting with a little skipping (US jumping rope) and jumping up onto a step. I'd really like to go on doing this, but I worry.

Alemama, how lucky you were to be introduced to weights in high school. Only a few years ago in the UK weight training was unheard of for women, or indeed for "ordinary" men. I enjoy weights so much, and it has done great things for my upper body. I find it tragic that I meet NO women of my age doing it. Apart from the helpful effect on muscles, as you know it does instill absolute attention to perfect posture. Do you know WHY you were told to look at the ceiling with your eyes when lifting? That does puzzle me.

Hi Alix

I think you have to feel your way with impact, eg your observation about grass. Your body will tell you. Trust it. Just support your body by looking after it. If the ground is hard, ensure that you are wearing the best supportive footwear. Impact with sprung timber is better than unsprung timber, is better than concrete, etc

From a physics point of view impact is when a body (which has its own momentum, the force of its own mass travelling at a certain velocity) suddenly occupies the same position in space as another object. If the object is the Earth it has almost infinite momentum, so the body's momentum combined with the Earth's momentum to stay where it is (its inertia) will bounce the forces back in the opposite direction into the body, and these forces will be absorbed by body parts along the way, which is why we don't just bounce back off the ground again. Your body is designed for dissipating these forces harmlessly, but if your poor old pelvic organs are not in their correct positions when the earth hits back they could be subject to forces that will damage their supports more. That's my explanation, anyway. I think it comes down to your posture at the moment of impact, and that is quite hard to judge. That's why I say your body will tell you, but you have to listen hard. As a woman whose body is now showing its age I can tell you that no impact is better for me than impact! I have a very similar body to yours. There is just less padding in my joints these days! I would say less is better than more with your younger body, but it is only a matter of time...

Some women manage running and jumping and riding. Probably most find that it worsens their symptoms. I think it is in your head. What are you aiming for with your exercise? Brain shaking? Head clearing? Cardio-pulmonary fitness? Aesthetic "Toning"? The feeling of having done something energetic? Catharsis? Weight loss? Using your whole body to make it more resilient and balanced? The wind in your hair? The sensation of speed or the way the world changes visually as it goes past? I don't like the feeling of impact. I prefer something where I am grounded or flowing. Even in everyday life I will try and make my movements flow. It is just less work. I am basically a lazy bugger! I see myself as a cross between a dugong and a monkey. Maybe I was a sea creaature in a previous life? No, I wouldn't like being a sea creature - scared of sharks! Perhaps I should be a shark?;-)

Cheers

Louise

Thanks, Louise. Where do you think trampolines come in all this? - they give less impact but I suspect something else not good for POP is going on. I have a small one (endearingly called a "trampette") but don't dare use it these days. Impact used to be demonised, but now advice is that a certain amount is important for the bones.

I doubt very much that you are older than me (67)! I wouldn't be a shark if I were you - they get hunted remorselessly and few care about their welfare (like rats). I have tried to think of any animal I would like to be, but failed - it's just too easy for bad things to happen to them. Better to be a prolapsed human being.

In a way I think my desire to leap around is about wanting to flow dynamically. Years of protecting my bad back and knees and ankle and now POP have left me so stiff and cautious. Very elderly. Suddenly I want to rebel. Happy flowing!

LOL! Ah yes, I know where you are coming from. We have discussed trampolines in the past. I think the secret is to maintain your WW posture on the way down and during the rebound. Try putting trampoline or rebounder, or even trampette into the Search box and see what you come up with.

Cheers

Louise

Yes this is a great thread, though I admit the weight-lifting video was a little disturbing to me. Great demonstration of posture and its importance......but what she's doing doesn't look healthy or safe to me. I'm too old to appreciate it, I guess. But I agree her posture is right-on, and if you substitute a more typical everyday lifting experiencing, for what she is doing, it's a great lesson in the dynamics. And I realize that was the point.

I like Louise's post about impact, and it is so true, how the organs need to be in their "correct positions before the earth hits back" or they will be subject to further damage to their support. I'm happy to say that I didn't go in much for high-impact stuff in my youth and early adulthood, though I was thinking of the future of my joints moreso than anything else. But I think Louise sounds overly cautious, because even I have discovered the lessening of symptoms that can be achieved through gentle running and jumping on toes in extremely good posture.

Anyway, thanks SH for unearthing this gem. - Surviving