After the birth

Submitted by Ribbit on March 31, 2010 - 8:05am
Body: 

I could not lift my left leg after the baby was born. I dragged it around for several days before it slowly regained strength. It doesn't bother me any more, but.....what happened? My midwife was baffled at the time. Did I do something to a muscle or ligament?

I talked with her yesterday (it's been 7 months since the birth) and she said in her 15 years of midwifery and 30 years of nursing in L&D, she's never seen a prolapse as bad as mine.

That wasn't very encouraging.

Rosebud1224

March 31, 2010 - 3:25pm

When I had my 2nd daughter, that is what I had. I couldn't pick up my left leg hardly. It got better in about 2 wks, but I still had occasional troulble with it. I didn't know I had a prolapse at the time or what a prolapse even was. I still am not sure if I pulled a ligament or if it was part of the the prolapse. I am due to have my 3rd daughter in 5 1/2 wks. I am worried about it again.

aza

March 31, 2010 - 8:17pm

I have never seen this before...do you think it might have been neurological? I have seen plenty of sore knees and wobbly hips etc but not a total inability to move a limb. What were your births like?

alemama

March 31, 2010 - 8:17pm

sounds like nerve damage or entrapment to me.

Rosebud1224

April 1, 2010 - 9:05am

Me personally, I didn't lose all ability, I just had to drag it somewhat. To lift it off the floor caused pain. It was like a tugging pulling sensation in my lower left abdominal area. I really don't know how to describe it. It also felt like the leg was numb/heavy. You know like when you have sat on a limb for too long and you lose circulation...? Not exactly but best way to describe. It was weird. When I described it to the Dr at the 6 wk postpartum visit, she checked my left ovary and I had a small cyst there. She thought maybe that was the cause? But I'd still have problems with it after. ie: while on walks or up doing house chores. IDK? That birth was an induced one, with epidural, 5 hrs give or take start to finish, 3 pushes.

louiseds

April 1, 2010 - 9:05am

Mmm, sounds like nerve damage to me too. I wonder what Aza will have to say?

A quick google of "postpartum paralysis" reveals that it does happen in humans and animals, and with good nursing care recovery is often sudden and spontaneous, even if it does take months sometimes. In cows it is to do with damage to peroneal and obturator nerves. Disturbed Calcium metabolism (and birth or pregnancy trauma are often involved, but not necessarily).

But, I am not a doctor, just a googler who has sheep that sometimes get it as a part of hypocalcaemia at the end of pregnancy.

I could also be talking through my hat.

Louise

aza

April 1, 2010 - 2:10pm

Rosebud, I think the most likely explanation in your case is the epidural. Leg numbness is a fairly common side effect when nerves are compromise from the drugs of the epidural. Another thing that can happen is that when an epidural is not fully effective, leaving some areas numb and others not, anesthesiologists may put in a partial spinal block rather than re-vamping the epidural, which is a definite cause of dead leg syndrome.
I'm sure it can happen in non-medicated physiological birth, as in Lu's farmlife, but I haven't seen it (yet).

Ribbit

April 1, 2010 - 2:50pm

This is interesting that others have had it. All on the left leg???

I have had 4 natural (unmedicated), gentle births with midwives, 3 at home. Everything has always gone smoothly till this last one when I had the awful prolapse.

The baby was very reluctant to come. The midwife said her head was cocked a little and she wondered if the head wasn't putting even pressure on the cervix and that's why things were so off-and-on for a full two weeks "overdue". (I roll my eyes at that term, but my midwife isn't comfortable with going past 42 weeks.) She suggested that I ask my chiropractor to do the Webster maneuver, which he was only familiar with in theory. He did some reading and said it looked simple enough and he proceeded to do it. I haven't really studied it, so I'm not entirely sure what it usually involves, but he put his thumbs into a couple of places right on the inside of my hip bones and right on the top of my femur. The one on the left side hurt a good while after he stretched it, and I complained about it.

Oddly enough, all the contractions started and ended in that very spot. I had a whole 45 minutes of labor with this one, and each contraction was a joke. I was so surprised.

Anyway, it was during the pushing stage (which consisted of about 3 contractions), that my midwife discovered the prolapse. We changed positions and eased the baby out. It was when I tried to get up and take a shower that I discovered I couldn't move my leg very well. I could move it around some, but I couldn't lift it up. It's like that muscle/tendon/ligament/whatever that the chiro had stretched didn't want to work anymore. I don't know that I can blame it on him--it might have been the prolapse that caused the inability to lift my leg.

While I'm here, I need to ask a question. How do I cough/sneeze without hurting myself? I sneezed this morning and thought I'd blown my bottom out. *sigh*

Rosebud1224

April 1, 2010 - 4:45pm

Very interesting. I have been reading a lot this pregnancy and really finding out the consequences of medicated births. If it was the epidural, could it have had that long of lasting effects? It took almost a full 2 wks for it to go away and I had reoccurances with it, even 4 mos PP. I also felt that this epidural vs. the one I had with first DD was fully effective. It didn't leave places numb vs others not. The anestehesiologist put in place and it was working in 15 mins. I had baby within an hour of the placement never needing a 2nd dose of med or anything, which I did with first. I plan to birth this lil girly unmedicated.

Rosebud1224

April 1, 2010 - 4:53pm

Your's was your left leg then also? What you describe sounds like mine with the lifting of the leg. Move it YES, lift it NO. So things like taking a "normal" step or shaving that leg (because of elevating while in standing position) in the shower was not easy. I actually had to give that leg a boost with my hand to get it up and down from tub sides. I kind of chalked it up to a pinched nerve or something.

louiseds

April 2, 2010 - 12:33am

I have just had a look at my Atlas of Skeletal Muscles and found that the following muscles flex the thigh upwards; psoas with its nerve supply branching from the lumbar plexus (L2 and L3, but sometimes involving L1 or L4 as well); iliacus, femoral nerve (L2 & L3); sartorius, femoral nerve (L2 & 3?); rectus femoris, femoral nerve L2-L4), and pectinius, femoral nerve (L2-L4), sometimes a branch of the obturator nerve. To contract these muscles and flex the thigh the following muscles, antagonists of the previously mentioned muscles, down the back of the legs, have to be able to stretch; biceps femoris, its long head being powered by the tibial tract of the sciatic nerve (S1-S3); semitendinosis, tibial portion of sciatic nerve (L5, S1, S2); semimembranosus, tibial portion of sciatic nerve (L5, S1, S2).

No, I don't understand it all either, but ...

You can see that there are five muscles joined in to different points on the pelvic bones that are used to raise your knee at the front. The muscles at the back, basically the hamstring group, have to be able to stretch out effectively for the same movement so the nerves have to be fully working for the upper leg to be able to move up in a forward direction. The femoral nerve and sometimes the obturator nerve are used for lifting the knee forwards and up (flexing), while the tibial portion of the sciatic nerve is used to power the muscles that have to stretch to flex the hip. The peroneal nerve seems to mainly make things happen in the lower leg and foot, but it does come out of L4, L5 and S1. This is the one I mentioned in the last post about paralysis in animals, where the ability to extend the hoof is critical to being able to stand up, but it doesn't seem to be that relevant for humans, or is it (walking is a complex set of movements and involves many muscles and nerves)?

Is there a problem lifting the leg either backwards (arabesque position) or straight out to the side. The muscles that contract to move the leg to the side are the piriformis, powered by the sacral nerves; upper part of gluteus maximus, powered by inferior gluteal nerve (L5, S1, S2); gluteus medius, superior gluteal nerve (L4, L5, S1); gluteus minimus, superior gluteal nerve (L4, L5, S1). The antagonists of these muscles that allow us to squeeze our knees together must stretch for us to lift the leg to the side are: the gracilis, pectinius, adductor longus, adductor brevis, adductor magnis, which are all powered by the obturator nerve, L3 and L4. To squeeze the knees together the agonists must stretch for the antagonists to contract.

So you have several muscles and several nerves involved in flexing and 'arabesquing' (extending?) back and forwards, and another group of muscles and nerves adducting and abducting the hip joint, lifting it to the side and squeezing it against the other leg.

From that you can work out which nerves are not working which muscles.

Then you can work out at which part of the spine/sacrum there is a blockage, and what might have caused it. My guess is that epidural and related spinal anaesthesia will also leave some sort of inflammation or injury at the site of the delivery of the drug which disturbs the nerves' ability to turn on again after the anaesthesia should have worn off. After all, there are several type of tissue literally punctured, and maybe abraded during cannula positioning and injection.

I am wondering if this blockage is related to postpartum posture, and how quickly or slowly the body intuitively gets itself organised postpartum back into WW posture? After all, if the woman has damage pelvic floor muscles during the birth these muscles need to be allowed to remain sloppy for a while so the muscle can knit back together again, instead of being stretched into a drumlike tension of loadbearing posture. Maybe the pelvis needs to be allowed to remain nutated for a while after birth, while the woman is not doing loadbearing, heavy work in the postpartum period.

Gawd, that was technical! It is amazing what a coffee will do!

Sorry, but to understand all this you will probably need a model skeleton and some multi-layered muscle and nerve charts. I just happen to have a book out of the Uni Library at the moment called Atlas of Skeletal Muscles by Robert J Stone and Judith A. Stone, second edition, 1997, ISBN 0697137902. I have borrowed it several times, and may get a copy for myself. It has very clear pencil drawings of each skeletal muscle with notes on the origin and insertion points, and action of the muscle, which nerves control it, and where theses nerves come out of the spinal column.

Sadly this book, and many other 'good' musculoskeletal anatomy books don't include anything about the pelvic floor muscles, which is a reflection of how little is really known about them in either males or females, and how few questions are asked about them, and the lack of understanding that the anatomists have of their function or importance in maintaining the orthopaedic integrity of the human body.

Happy anatomising!

Louise

ps Newbies, maybe you can now see why the Wholewoman workout on the DVD is so effective in strengthening all those little muscles around the hip joint that we don't even think about.

Ribbit

April 2, 2010 - 2:01pm

Thanks for all that, Louise. Glad coffee still works for you. ;) I can't concentrate well enough anymore to digest all that info. I didn't have any intervention at all--so I know our leg lifting issues aren't both caused by epidurals.

Yes, Rosebud, just my left leg. You tried to shave??? I think I've shaved twice in the last 6 months. I guess that'll change now that the weather is warmer.

I had to use my hands to "help" lift either leg for a good three or four months after the birth (if I was laying on my back), even after I could walk again. Like my chiropractor would say, "Okay, sit up," and I couldn't. I could hardly even roll on my side. He still has to help me.

Can I unload a little?

I feel like my entire life has come to a screeching halt. Some people dream of living in the city and working a great job and networking with friends. Some people dream of the performing arts. Some dream of teaching. Some dream of speed skating in the Olympics. Some people think a 9-5 office job sounds fantastic.

I always dreamed of homesteading. We had a big garden when I was growing up. Having a big family and a flock of chickens and a gigantic garden has always been my dream. I actually enjoy pulling weeds and shoveling chicken poop and watching the earthworms populating my compost pile. I enjoy getting sunburn and shelling peas and cutting up squash. I like to move big rocks and dig holes to plant blueberry bushes. And believe it or not, I really don't mind hand-picking japanese beetles off bean plants.

We've been married 8 years this week. I've put up with city life these past 8 years, trying not to chomp at the bit but always waiting on my little piece of dirt.

It finally happened. This past July we moved to our 2 1/2 acres. I was 8 months pregnant. Of course being the way I am, I packed most of the house and although my husband had to move the heaviest things, I certainly moved boxes that were way too heavy for me to be moving. And then the baby was born and the prolapse happened. My midwife told me not to do anything for 6 weeks.

I can't do anything I want to do anymore. I figured out how to putter around in the garden, but I can't do what I want to do. I spent nearly all day on my feet yesterday doing odd jobs that didn't require lifting or moving anything heavy. And boy, I am paying for it today. I feel like everything between my ribcage and my thighs is jelly. I even had a bowel movement today, which as you all understand is a great feat. I still feel like *%&$#@. I have decided I can't eat meat. It just clogs up the plumbing. I'm having to work out a diet of huge amounts of mushy food like butternut squash and quinoa and lentil soup. Which is fine, it just requires me to spend even more time in the kitchen.

I haven't had to worry about it yet, but in the next few months I'm going to start having to worry about getting pregnant again. I guess I need a doctor to tell me, "If you get pregnant again, you endanger the life of the baby and your own life because your uterus is going to fall out of your body." DH and I aren't ready to put a permanent end to our family growth. And yet......I can't afford to be on bedrest for months during the pregnancy and after the birth, which is what my OB has already said and my midwife hinted at. At the rate we're going, there's not any risk of pregnancy because intimacy doesn't really work right anymore.

Please tell me this is going to get better.

I can already say that with the exercises things are better than they were. I had a chronic bladder infection for several months at first. There's still an offensive odor, but at least my bladder is emptying and my pee is yellow instead of nearly brown. Just bein' REAL honest here. I'm having trouble with constipation still, but it's better than it was. Because of my colon backing up, my pant size swings from 8 to 16 within a couple of days. It's really awful. After a day when I can actually go, I can fit into normal pants. If I can't go for several days, my belly swells up. It's awful. I feel like I can't go anywhere. I basically stay home most of the time. My poor children have to grow up with their mother like this. It's not fair to them.

I'm 32, y'all.

I feel like I'm in the body of a 70-year-old. I'm in worse shape than my mother-in-law. She does good to walk to her mailbox and back. I can walk to my mailbox and back several times (we have a long driveway), but if I'm carrying the baby, my crotch feels like it's going to hit my knees before I get halfway to the mailbox once.

Again, my children don't deserve to grow up like this. Spending huge amounts of time in the bathroom, trying to massage my belly and get everything out. Hollering to the children to stop arguing with each other so I can relax. Asking the oldest (7) to hold the crying baby while I have to spend 20 minutes trying to empty my colon. It's not fair to them.

Rosebud1224

April 2, 2010 - 3:41pm

I also want to thank Louise. However, I too can't concentrate like I used to. To truly be able to let it all sink in, would be wonderful. Here lately I do good to think of the word I am trying to use to talk to people in my everyday life.

I had to LOL about the shaving. I only shave about once a week. I pretty much can't stand myself if I don't beyond that point. I'd love it to be more but I am pregnant again and it's hell getting around this belly. I have 5 wks to go from Sunday. I don't have much trouble with my leg anymore. It went away after this pregnancy got under way. I can't put a time frame on as to when I didn't notice it anymore, but I haven't for a few months. Sometimes makes me wonder if the pressure from the growing uterus is doing something to a nerve making it better. IDK, that's prob just talking out my bum. I was only 4 mos PP when I found the prolapse and 2 days later we found out we were expecting. Thank goodness for this site, because I was for sure I would be on bed rest and have everything hanging between my knees before I gave birth to this child. The pregnancy itself is just as horrible as my other 2. SEVERE sickness for the first 16 wks, pretty much not able to get off of couch. And the last few wks are really taking their toll on me.

Reading your story has really made me feel less alone. I felt like I was reading my life, give or take a few things, as I read your rant. I can only say I pray things get better. I can't stand the thought of my girls never really knowing what it is like to play with Mommy. I am tired of my Mom having to be here to help me with everyday things. My 3 yr old is always worried about me. I feel your pain on walking the driveway and holding your child. I barely pick either of mine up anymore unless I am sitting down. I can't stand it!!! Heck, I barely make it half way through the grocery store without feeling like everything is going to exit my bum.

Also, not that it is funny, but I had to also LOL about the bathroom bit. I too have to spend a lot of time to empty myself and when the girls are outside the door, I can't concentrate. I really pray that I never have to use a family/public restroom while out. It is too much of a process for me and not pretty. I know TMI. But (big sigh) I don't know what to do. I think it's depressing. Some days are just really hard. Being 31 and feeling like an old lady. We're in the same boat. My heart goes out to you & I pray that we can make it to the other side of this!! I only have faith because of the inspiring stories from the ladies on here that have this, went through pregnancies with it & are overcoming it.

alemama

April 2, 2010 - 10:33pm

I'm thinking about you mamas and pondering over what you both have going on....I wish I had more energy to write right now- but I don't. I am going to try to get back to this sometime tomorrow-
but I am noodling.

alemama

April 3, 2010 - 7:44am

Hey Ribbit- I have 4 kiddos- from 7 down to 1 and I know what you are talking about when you worry over putting the baby off on the 7 year old.
I try not to do this very often. But it is hard and the baby sure does love his big sister! One thing I do when I feel like our 7 year old is taking on too much responsibility is to imagine she is 3 and take care of her accordingly ALL DAY. Make her drinks and bring them to her- not ask her to do much in the way of picking up, go with her to the bathroom and keep her company in the tub, read out loud to her her, and just spend super quality time together. This seems to help her not get burned out on being the oldest.
I also keep the bathroom clean enough that I am comfortable letting the baby play in there while I am in there- he loves taking apart my lotions and bags and things like that. Maybe you could bring a basket of toys in there.
Oh and the fussing of the bigger kids while you are busy-You could make them a 'mama's in the potty' basket of toys that only comes out when you go in- also food is a great distractor for my kids- if I need a minute all I have to do is give them a bag of frozen blueberries and they are quiet.
Now on to you.....would you be willing to go on a liquid diet for a few days and then fast? would you be willing to use enemas? Would you be willing to take a hard look at your diet and see what could be causing all that bloating and inflammation? Something you are eating is really bothering your tummy. If it were me I'd go off food for a day- then I would juice greens, cabbage, and apples for a day or two- then I would add in more fruits, next day sweet potatoes, next day chicken, and then I would stay there for a few weeks to see if my body was happy. Get a good quality probiotic- like naturen healthy trinity.
Just a suggestion- but I think it would work.
I would also refuse to spend all that time in the bathroom. Go ahead and do an enema- get it over with and move on for the day- try that for a few days-
ok that was just a whole bunch of rambling thoughts
take what you can use and leave the rest.
Feel better soon!

Ribbit

April 3, 2010 - 8:48am

The toy basket or frozen blueberries is a GREAT idea for when I'm in the bathroom. Thank you very much.

I am told by my "friends" (I'm beginning to roll my eyes at that term) that it's my oldest daughter's responsibility to be my helper. But I don't think so. I'll use her if I have to, and I thank her profusely for sweetly helping me (because she is cheerful and more helpful than I EVER was as a kid--I'm the oldest girl but I have two older brothers and resented having to help while they got to go have fun doing "boy stuff" with Daddy).....but I don't want to use her as a babysitter. It's not fair to her.

My diet is very good. I'm on the Blood Type Diet (actually the GenoType Diet, both by Dr. D'Adamo) and my health is much better than it used to be. The problem isn't my food--the problem is my body. No matter what I do, the poo is still going to get caught in that little pocket caused by the sagging rectum. Taking huge amounts of vitamin C helps a tiny bit. Taking a cal/mag supplement helps some if I can remember to take it just before bed. Eating more steamed veggies seems to help. I can't eat meat at all (even turkey or chicken) because it clogs me up. Things like lentil soup seem good for easing things up. A good bit of what I eat is organic, and it's all home made (which is part of my problem because I spend a lot time standing at the kitchen counter). I'm a health food junkie.

The trouble with fasting or going raw is that I'm breastfeeding. Totally. I used to be on a mostly raw diet and it was wonderful. I can't wait to do it again. But I went off it when I got pregnant because my midwife said I couldn't grow a baby on raw foods. I continued juicing, but I just added back in regular food too (still on the BTD though). Soon after the baby came I decided to do raw again because I thought it might help me heal faster and also move through the postpartum depression. But when I juiced raw greens (kale mostly), it gave the baby a terrible diaper rash and green, kale-colored poop. I tried it for several days to see if it would improve, but it just got worse. I felt fantastic, like I always do when I eat raw, but her little digestive system couldn't process the greens.

I can do an enema, I guess, if the children will eat blueberries and leave me alone. Should I do it every day?

It's not inflammation from my food, I don't believe. It's the fact that I eat a lot of food, and then because I can't poo, it builds up and builds up until I'm hugely bloated and feel awful (from all the toxins floating around through me), and then one day I have an urge. Hurray! An urge! And then on the day I go, I will go two to four times throughout the day. Then I fit back into my size 8s. After I go, I feel happy and "emptied" and cheerful and pleasant.

I definitely want to do my raw diet again. My digestion has always been on the slow side, but when I went raw, I functioned like I should.

I'm not going to wean the baby just so I can go raw again.

Is it safe to do an enema every day for weeks or months?

I have realized that I need to do my exercises in the morning before I start my day. Otherwise I spend all day hobbling around in pain. But when I first wake up, my back is so stiff I can hardly do the exercises. It takes so long for me to loosen up that the children are awake and wanting to eat, and then it's hard to do the exercises. I can't relax and stretch with a baby laying next to me fussing. If I wait till she's sleeping, I feel like I should be teaching the oldest (we homeschool) during that time.

I'm trying not to let this get me down, but it's really frustrating. My friends try to give me helpful suggestions, but they aren't helpful.

aza

April 3, 2010 - 2:01pm

Long link below but it has some good info on nerve compromise and birth....femoral neuropathy and / or obturator neuropathy seem relevant.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=3Tth8JB-TW0C&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=p...

This appears to be very rare so I find it intriguing that several of you have experienced this....

granolamom

April 3, 2010 - 9:03pm

been thinking about you today
yes, your dd should help you out, but I agree with you. I'm an oldest, so I completely agree that the oldest girl should not become your second set of hands. or replacement mother (I was).
I love alemama's suggestion, oh how that would've changed my life as a kid! also I think it teaches the child the importance of taking time to recharge oneself. (I love when we go slightly off topic)
I forget how old your baby is, but my babies are often unhappy with elements of my diet but when I try those foods again a month or so later they no longer react (sometimes). I just tried pineapple again (gave my baby awful gas and rash as a newborn) and keeping my fingers crossed. I love pineapple!
also, are you eating dairy products? dairy and chicken are way worse for me than meat (though that's pretty bad too).
and a long while back our member Sue recommended a posture/twist thing to get the bowels moving. iirc it was to pull up into posture as best you can while sitting on the toilet and then twist to the right (I think it was the right). for some reason it was helpful. and another member (forgot who) suggested around that time, visualizations.
I'm lucky that I dont' usually struggle with constipation, the few times it gets me, the visualizations work pretty well. and you know that constipation and anxiety form a pretty vicious cycle.
I'm sorry you're having such a miserable time of it, I hope you find something that works soon. ((hugs))

Rosebud1224

April 4, 2010 - 9:07am

Aza, the link is very interesting. Made me search for more info. I would love to dive into all this further when my brain returns. The info you & Louise provided makes me WANT to understand and educated myself. I really like how Louise has a skeleton of the human body to study. I am chalking my loss of brain power up to pregnancy, 2 lil ones, a recent move, & remodeling old house to get ready for market. IDK...hope that's it!! LOL

I really wasn't in labor that long, but did feel the need to push & had to wait for over an hour for Dr to arrive. I was postitioned on my left side for a bit and then flipped on my back, with legs in stirrups for the majority of the wait. Wonder if that has a lot to do with it after some of the reading. Anyway, I am a tad bit concerned about this. My family, on my mother's side, has a long history of neuropathy. My Mom has a very bad case of it, her Docs say they have never seen one as bad. However, hers is peripheral neuropathy (or what I should say they finally diagnosed her with after 2 yrs of trying to figure out) often associated with Diabetes, which she does not have. So, I am worried now that this may be the start of this for me?????

Ribbit, out of curiosity, does your family have any history of neuropathy?

alemama

April 6, 2010 - 12:07am

*oh no* don't wean so you can go raw! nurse forever :)
I know what it is like to eat for a nursing baby- our newest has had some crazy allergies. But it seems like I can eat more variety with each passing day. I hate that you are having to deal with sluggish digestion! I bet you do feel toxic. How the heck can you speed it up? Maybe juice more? maybe eating less? drinking more water? Louise? you know so much about digestion- what can Ribbit do?

and the stretching. oh man. I can identify with the stiffness and pain. Do you have the ww video? I don't actually get out of bed until I have stretched my hamstrings out. Releasing tight hams is a key factor to reducing back pain and stiffness.

I doubt it is good to use an enema frequently- but hey- maybe if you use it a few times you will jump start your body's urge.....worth a try anyway- especially if you are feeling really bloated.

We homeschool too! I love it. I love the freedom the most- so get creative- work out a way to stretch while teaching.

I love a good cal/mag and vit C. too....

I hope you come upon a wonderful solution to this frustrating problem. I know you will if we all keep noodling on it.
I wonder if you took time each day to push the rectocele back and held it there for a bit of time your body would feel the urge?

(and fwiw my brother always did the fun "guy" stuff with my dad too- and it wasn't so bad for me because there were 3 girls to share the chores with but we don't do that with our kids- we all work together when it is working time- and my sweet dh sets a wonderful example by doing dishes and laundry right along side me- he really does it all! he can even braid hair)

louiseds

April 6, 2010 - 12:14am

Hi Ribbit and Rosebud

The whole thing gets curiouser and curiouser. I think the thing to remember is that all the things I have read (apart from the seemingly intractable pudendal nerve neuropathy that stems from surgical procedures like hysterectomy), indicate that this birth related neuropathy does recover in time. Perhaps it is just another aspect of the body reverting after pregnancy and birth. It is a source of annoyance and inconvenience, but perhaps it can be regarded as just one of those things that sometimes goes wrong, but it has no lasting significance.

Rosebud, I can understand your concern, with your family history of neuropathy, but try not to worry about it too much. It is probably good reason for going into labour and birth with the aim of remaining as active as you can throughout labour and staying as upright as you can for the birth. I wouldn't mind guessing that being on your back with legs in stirrups during labour had more to do with your neuropathy than family history (that turned out to be diabetes related).

You have been dealing with a lot recently. You don't need to worry yourself unnecessarily with this as well. Chill. Just enjoy your pregnancy and your babies, and your new house and your partner. Embrace labour positively when it comes, and just go with the flow.

Keep us posted.

Louise

Ribbit

April 6, 2010 - 8:28am

My dad used to have some drop-foot thing going on, but it healed after a while. I think it was more his ankle misbehaving, not his hip, but I can ask him.

Q: Where do I go to see if somebody has sent me a p.m.?

Ribbit

April 6, 2010 - 8:57am

How do you "push back" a rectocele?

Last night I ate a huge pile of butter peas, a huge pile of butternut squash, some fried okra (in olive oil, dusted with rye flour). It seems that protein is a real problem. I can do high-protein grains like quinoa. I should have added some fish or something, but this morning I was actually able to go! A lot! If I just nibble on food throughout the day, even if it's healthy food, it seems to clog the drains. But if I eat large amounts of mushy food, I can poo! It was painful, and the urge was very sudden, but at least I could go. That's how things are now--sudden. Before, if I felt the gradual need to go, I could kind of put it off till it was convenient. You know, get the children occupied, finish up what I was doing......But now if I get the urge, I better go right then. If I try to put it off, the urge might vanish and then things get all stopped up and dried out and .... well .......

I do have the book and workout DVD. It brings tears to my eyes every time I watch the dance at the very end. My first thought was, "I will never be able to do anything like that." And my second thought was, "One day I'll be able to do that too!" I try to do the beginning part of the workout every morning, up through the Firebreathing. If I do it, I have a much better day. If I miss two or three days, I'm right back where I started (or worse). In fact, the last couple of days things have seemed worse than ever (with the prolapse; not with the general pain). It feels like my cervix is dropping lower and lower. I've had to give up pants altogether because the seam in the crotch is just awful, and I can't do much. Walking around feels uncomfortable--just the friction on my cervix.....Maybe it's the hairs that are annoying it??? Perhaps if I trimmed them it would be better. I did the workout last night and my back doesn't hurt as bad this morning, although it hurt all night.

I will try stretching out my calves before I get out of bed.

I do know that doing the exercises have helped somewhat because:

1. The back pain isn't as constant and severe as it was.
2. I can at least have a poo every two-three days now, and it's not all dried out. Often it still is, but not every time.
3. When I sit with my feet straight out in front of me (on the floor) and try to reach for my toes, I can nearly touch my ankles with my fingertips. When I first started the exercises, I could barely reach my knees because my back hurt so bad and it would spasm severely. This is an exciting improvement for me.
4. I got rid of the 4-month-long bladder infection. It still smells strong some days, but it's not like it was.

So I know that some things have improved, but some things seem to be dropping lower.

I made a discovery. If I put something hard (a very firm pillow or a wadded up baby blanket) behind my sacrum when I'm sitting--my sacrum, mind you, not my lower lumbar--the pain vanishes.

Rosebud1224

April 6, 2010 - 9:50am

To push back your rectocele, you insert a finger or thumb into the vagina and gently push against the back wall (toward the rectum). It "closes off" the "pouch" & makes the poo flow back to the proper places....not fun but really does help the flow of things. I have had to do this a lot here recently to help myself go. Sluggish digestion due to preganacy, I am sure, since I really don't have a problem with it when I am not preg. Hope this helps & makes sense.

louiseds

April 6, 2010 - 12:07pm

1 A pm will just turn up in your email with a message saying something like "louiseds has sent you a message via Wholewoman". Scroll down and you will find it. I'll send you one as a test.

2 Yes, that is the only way I can think of to push a rectocele back. It kind of straightens out the kink in the pipe. There is a muscle that goes from the front of the pelvis, around the back of the rectum and back to the other side of the front of the pelvis. It holds the bottom of the rectum forwards to maintain continence. When you relax your anal sphincters to have a poo, that muscle relaxes and stretches out to allow the kink in the rectum to straighten out and allow the poo to come *straight* out. If you get constipated, or the poo is just too dry, it will settle inquite a solid bent shape, and I don't think it can straighten out easily to come out. I think pushing the rectocele back just straightens out the bend so the poo is not trying to come around a corner.

If your urine is dark coloured you might not be drinking enough. Your urine will be darker in the mornings but by night time it should be much closer to clear. Hard poo is another sign of not drinking enough. If you are eating a lot of fibre, that fibre will suck up a lot of water, so you need to drink more again. The mushiness of food is a sign that it has a lot of water in it. High fibre foods that are not mushy will suck up water like you wouldn't believe!

3 Yes, I get sudden urges to poo these days, and know that holding on is not a good idea. I will hold on to urine for hours, but I do need to find a toilet as soon as I feel the need for a poo, or the urge just disappears, then the poo sits inside me drying out, and can cause problems later, when I feel the urge again. It is not the end of the world if I can't go quickly occasionally, but I don't make a habit of it.

4 I did some research on length of pubic hair and decided that a little trimming was helpful, but don't trim too short. I came to the conclusion that pubic hair is a friction reducer for sex, but also when your legs are moving against each other and your crotch. Saves a lot of chafing. You will reduce its 'lubricant' action if you cut it too short, and possibly allow your cervix to contact your knickers, which can lead to cross contamination, thrush, UTI's etc (if the entrance to the urethra is exposed. Nasty, nasty. Brazilian? You've got to be kidding!!

With your northern hemisphere summer coming you could try going without knickers. Just wear a half slip for modesty and to catch any discharge. Deep slits at the sides allow the air to flow through for coolness. Then nothing will rub your cervix.

5 Yes, a firm pillow behind the sacrum feels lovely. I think the lumbar spine finds it easier if you do it this way. It sounds a bit as if your hamstrings might still be a bit tight. This might account for your sore back. tight hamstrings will prevent your pelvis tilting forward by itself, because the hamstring muscles tug downwards on the back of the pelvis, where they join on at the top end. Once you can get your hamstrings looser you will find your WW posture is a lot easier. Keep up the workout. Sounds like you are going great!! Years of bad posture takes a long time to reverse. Baby steps.

Louise

Christine

April 7, 2010 - 2:46pm

This looks like a simple and straightforward presentation on postpartum neuropathy. One has to wonder if there is still a bit of nerve damage going on with such severe and unwarranted constipation. Our member, mommynow, also had a horrendous perineal “tear” (hers was an extended episiotomy) and has struggled in similar ways as you, Ribbit. Hopefully we will hear from her one of these days and get an update. It was with mommynow that we realized some forms of obstetric-related rectocele are extremely difficult to affect. I doubt you will find a more vocal group of women dedicated to the protection and preservation of the perineum than we at WW. Huge campaigns are needed around this subject - to replace the easy way out...elective cesarean. You are still early on in your recovery, Ribbit. We will be talking about and demonstrating re-building the female core so stay tuned.

Christine

mommynow

April 25, 2010 - 6:43pm

well I finally made it!! I am sorry you are struggling ribbit. I have not read your whole store yet. I will see if I can find it first and get back to you.

mommynow

April 25, 2010 - 7:16pm

Hi Ribbit

My story is this and hopefully you may find some hope for healing in the future. I had my first daughter almost five years ago. It was with an OB. I pushed for 1.5 hours and had an epidural. right after they stitched me up (it took them 45 minutes and when I asked him why he said it was a 2nd degree tear but there is a lot of swelling) I went to stand up and it felt like a huge brick was falling out of me. When I asked the nurses about it they said it is because of the swelling. I was naive and believed them. I thought you were supposed to feel this way. so I went on with my life and came home and tried to do things like walk around the block etc. but I felt this huge pressure. It was so uncomfortable. at my 6 week checkup I asked the OB and he said you have a prolapsed bladder and uterus and finish having kids and you can get a hysterectomy. well that freaked me out so I got on the internet and started to research. during this time we had a lot of troubles with my daughter and for the first 5 months she had colic until we figured out she had an allergy to milk. I ended up having post partum depression because I felt like I couldn't take care of my own daughter. I couldn't stand and walk around with her without feeling horrible. I found the kegelmaster first and it made my prolapse worse. so I stopped and in the beginning I had pressure in the vaginal area but then started to get it further back. I found Christine then and started to do the posture and exercises. I noticed improvements but still struggled with pressure and not being able to completely empty my bowels etc. Then I got pregnant again and felt even worse. the second birth was much better as I had a midwife and the baby came out on her own and a much smaller tear. I had a lot of problems after again though. I had to pee often and would getting a burning in that area, my cystocele was very low and so was my uterus this time whereas the first time it was more the bladder and rectum I believe (I mostly self diagnosed the specifics). my prolapse felt better faster this time though. I couldn't even walk from the couch to the bathroom without feeling heavy. it seemed to take forever to heal!! right around the 2 year mark is when I started to notice more improvement but really it took that long. it seemed that doing all of Christine's work took the edge off but I still suffered and thought about the prolapse constantly. I could never leave the house without wearing the v-2 supporter otherwise it just felt heavy and uncomfortable. then I decided to go back to work 1/2 time teaching. I got an idea about using a sport tampon with olive oil from one of the members on here. oh by the way I had tried a pessary and sea pearl and both made it feel worse. so I tried the tampon and v-2 supporter. I don't know if it is the fact that I have forced myself to get on with life outside of the home (because before I was constantly focused on how I felt with it) or if it was the tampon helping but I felt a huge difference. I used to lay down in the afternoons while they napped and I was so worried when I went back what would happen not getting that rest. I don't even notice though. I ordered a "prolapse" sea pearl and cut it way down tot he size of the sport tampon to get the same effect and a more natural way. I can walk my daughter to school and my girls to the babysitter and then teach all afternoon and then sometimes walk to the babysitter to get them. before even wearing the v2 supporter I would feel the prolapse when walking even in posture. now both of those things help and I can do what I need to do. I can't run or hike for a long time or walk all day but I can live well and I feel that I am useful to society now. not that I didn't love taking care of my girls but I felt that I was a huge let down partly because being a mom to me was totting my babies around and wearing them. I never got to do that. it made me feel pretty bad about myself. now I spend quality time with them in the mornings and get to teach older kids in the afternoon where I can sit and stand and pace myself so that I am not uncomfortable. I feel like I am needed more now. I can walk with the girls now. and I know a big part of this was also TIME. I kept comparing myself to other women on here and they seemed to be symptom free by a year using all of Christine's ideas. I was still uncomfortable and then one person said it took her at least 2 years and for me that was the same. I still can't do whatever I want without symptoms and like Christine said I must have nerve damage or something. but I am deciding to focus today on what I can do and do comfortably. I can do a lot more comfortably then I could the first two years. I know everyday that I have prolapse because I can feel it still but it has improved enough that at least I can do some things I couldn't in the beginning and I feel very grateful. this time around my bladder is lower and I feel that it has helped my rectocele feel better because they are like a pessary pushing against each other more. I would like to have another baby some day I just really dread the pregnancy as last time it was really bad. some things that have helped my pressure feeling is taking psyllium fiber each day and not eating wheat or dairy - especially cheese. I find that goat cheese is much better. I try to keep my posture right and walk in posture. for the first couple years that I came to this forum I thought I was doing the posture right and then realized I wasn't quite so make sure you really practice that the right way as it makes a difference. if you have any questions let me know.

Ribbit

April 25, 2010 - 8:40pm

I appreciate you typing all that up for me. And thank you too, Christine. The more I learn, the more I begin to think this is something that's been going on for longer than I realize. I don't go to OBs between births. In fact, the only time I've been to an OB was with the last birth, and only once did he do an internal exam, right at the end, to strip the membranes (I was two weeks "overdue"). The midwives have only done internal exams during the actual birth process, which isn't much of an indication. The only exam I've really had (prior to the visit with the OB after this last birth) was right after my first birth when I was having my stitches checked. I asked her about a little bulge that wasn't there before and she said, "Oh, that's what a postpartum vagina looks like. Everybody's looks like that after they've had a baby." So I didn't give it any more thought until just now. I didn't like that midwife and she told me other things that I found out later weren't really true. So I'm wondering now if I had prolapse all along. I don't know if this is typical, but after each birth I've had bad constipation for a little while. In fact, it usually takes nearly a week to even have a bowel movement after a birth. Then things slowly get back to normal. Perhaps that's indication also of previous prolapse. If it's true that prolapse sort of improves during pregnancy because the uterus is full and moves up, then it would be reasonable that none of my midwives even knew about it.

Again, I have a really great diet. It's not my diet's fault. But I will take the advice about the cheese and back off a little. I only eat fresh cheeses like cottage, ricotta and occasionally a bit of mozzarella, and that's a fairly recent addition to my diet. Before a year ago I was dairy-free for ten years. I make my own ghee and eat LOTS of it. And I eat plain yogurt. But I'll lay off the cheese and see if that helps.

Postpartum neuropathy seems a reasonable diagnosis.

When DH returns from his business trip I will make an appointment to go get an MRI done.

What is a colo-rectal specialist called? How do I find one?

Ribbit

April 25, 2010 - 8:45pm

Mommynow, I just went and reread your post and I forgot to mention a couple of things: After my horrible tearing with baby #1, I had a heavy vaginal feeling too. For a long time. My midwife told me to do Kegels and I could do about 5 before I'd be exhausted. It hurt to sit, it hurt to stand, it hurt to lay in bed. It was a very dark time for me, and I had the postpartum depression too. And my baby was colicky too, before we discovered an egg allergy (I may have already posted about this--I forget). When I quit eating eggs, she started sleeping.

You have encouraged me more than you can know. My postpartum depression has returned and at least this time I know what it is and can acknowledge it and work with it instead of being confused by it.

We are to the point of just having a vasectomy done. DH has already looked into it. I keep going back and forth about it. I don't know if it's really the right thing for us to do, but at this point, I feel like I'm in a catch 22.

Ribbit

April 25, 2010 - 9:00pm

You said you didn't think you really understood the posture correctly at first. Will you elaborate on this? I think I've "got" it, although I have to constantly remind myself to do it, but I can't tell any good difference in the prolapse just from doing the posture.

granolamom

April 25, 2010 - 9:22pm

hi mommynow, so nice to hear from you!
glad to hear you're doing better and I hope you just continue to see progress until you get to a place where you can do whatever you please without thinking about POP

granolamom

April 25, 2010 - 9:28pm

so sorry to hear you're dealing with PPD. I've had it after each of my babies, to varying degrees. my first was by far the worst, she too was colicky and later diagnosed with an egg allergy but not until she was almost 3 years old. so we suffered for too long.
PPD is awful, just plain awful. but it will pass, and I hope it passes quickly. my mw and therapist both claim that the overwhelming majority of PPD cases are due to the mama doing too much too soon. so this time around whenever I felt it creeping up on me, I stopped and got into bed (if I couldnt get into bed I slowed down to the bare minimum and got into bed as soon as I could). I can't say I avoided the PPD altogether, but it was much less debilitating than the last 4 times.
and please, do not make any irreversable bc decisions while you are prone to PPD. you aren't thinking clearly yet. vasec may or may not be what you end up choosing, but I think you owe it to yourself and dh to make that choice with clarity.
and hang in there, ribbit.
these are the hard days. you will get through to the other side and breathe a bit more easily. trust me.
(((hugs)))

Christine

April 25, 2010 - 10:28pm

Mommynow, we have missed you. It's wonderful to hear of your improvement and general determination to get on with life. You were our first case of extremely difficult postpartum prolapse and I knew Ribbit would benefit so much from hearing your story. Now I hope in another couple of years both of you will have greatly recovered. Testosterone is the molecule best known for repairing nerve damage in the perineum. Keep your T levels up by a generally healthy lifestyle, onions and garlic, healthy fats and no alcohol or caffeine.

Hugs all around,

Christine

Ribbit

April 26, 2010 - 1:51pm

Really? Garlic and onions? LOVE THEM. One of my favorite feel-good meals is a big bowl of red lentils with sauteed garlic and onions (in plenty of ghee or olive oil), with turmeric and sea salt. And cumin seed. What else can I do about testosterone?

Well, regarding a vasectomy, it's something we need to do some more thinking about and praying about, certainly. I haven't had a clear mind in almost 8 years, when I got pregnant with my first. I think the pregnancy hormones affect me more than the do most people. About the time my brain starts clearing a little, I get pregnant again, spend the next couple of months laying on the bathroom floor throwing up. And then the hormones come swirling back again. And because I nurse long-term (and tandem nurse), it never really ends. (I'm not complaining--I love my darlings very much! I'm just sayin'.)

mommynow

April 28, 2010 - 8:25am

Thank you for the warm welcome. I am sorry I was away for so long but I found my prolapse to be at a stand still and to be reading and writing about prolapse was making me feel no hope because I wasn't seeing any change. I thought that I needed to make some changes and stop focusing so much on it when nothing was making it get better. Ribbit I would highly recommend you not make a decision like that until you are past this PPD. I feel so much different and I also felt like we would be done having kids and even after taking two years to get to this point I am still open to having another. Each time I learn so much and I feel hopeful that we could have an even better experience and I got so much support and help this time with the PPD so now I don't feel alone and know there are things I can do to lesson it and manage better. I do worry that I will be at square one again but then I think I am only 32 and if it takes another few years of struggle to get another beautiful addition to our family then I might be willing to take the leap. My prolapse is VERY sensitive to what I eat. If I eat wheat I don't get that chunk of time not feeling heavy. If I eat even one time of cheese same thing. I will be thinking of you. PPD can be such a dark time. I am so happy that Christine has this site to give us somewhere to talk and get support because with my first child I felt all alone.

mommynow

April 28, 2010 - 8:28am

sorry what I meant to say is during PPD I felt like I was done but after getting through it and the healing in prolapse I feel totally different so if I still felt like we were done now then I would go ahead and make that decision. goodluck. I hope you find some peace in whatever you decide xo

Ribbit

April 28, 2010 - 10:21am

I realize it might not be this way for me, but.....

1. Extremely early menopause runs in the family. My mom and my aunt both stopped having periods in their early-mid 30s. I'm 32. My grandmother had a hysterectomy at an early age for unknown reasons (she wouldn't tell anybody). My sister is already having pre-menopausal symptoms. She's 29. She's on natural hormones and antidepressants. My cousin, who is my age, says her PPD never went away after the birth of her first baby 5 years ago.

2. With the menopause comes prolonged depression--like 10 or more years of it. Other young (and old) women in the family have found solace in antidepressants because the depression can take a long, long time to lift, if ever.

Again, I realize I might not have inherited THOSE genes, but chances are I did. It's not very encouraging to go to a family reunion and have everybody around me telling me how wonderful and normal they are after being on drugs. I don't like drugs and I don't like the idea of having to take something to feel normal.

We went out for our anniversary last night and I had some cheese and a little wheat. I may pay for it over the next couple of days. Next time we go out we'll plan to go somewhere with more options.

Thank you all again for the encouragement.

DH and I got a chance to talk about things last night and we believe this prolapse has been going on since the first birth, perhaps before. I think I talked about this a couple of posts down, but he is in complete agreement and said, "This is what I came to: Your body is broken. It might be fixed through these exercises, but it never was real strong to begin with. From what we've learned from Christine's research [about the calves and legs being so important in supporting pelvic organs], it leads me to believe you probably had problems before we were even married."

And I think he's right. I was so tight in my legs that he'd massage them lightly and I'd cringe in pain. Intercourse was excruciating and we had a rough start to our marriage because of it. So I already had problems. DH said last night that he is amazed I was even capable of producing four beautiful, healthy, strong children.

So I guess what I'm saying is that while we're still not completely at peace with the decision of vasectomy, the decision to stop at 4 children might be made for us now that I'm facing menopause head-on. I don't want to put my children through what my siblings and I went through with my mother. My menopause is not something my children should have to suffer from.

granolamom

April 28, 2010 - 7:29pm

gosh, ribbit, that's difficult to think about, being so young and facing the possiblity of menopause.
is there a way to determine if that is what you're going through? as opposed to 'normal pp stuff'?
and please don't feel as though you need to justify a vasectomy here!
my comments were only based on my experience, when I first found my prolapse I was totally committed to closing up the baby-making shop, but a few months later felt differently. and when I'm suffering with PPD, same thing. so I only was suggesting that such a decision be made while not under the cloud of PPD. I hope I didn't make you feel badly about it.
((hugs))

mommynow

April 28, 2010 - 8:50pm

I hope I didn't say anything to make you feel you had to defend yourself either. I was also just saying I felt different after the PPD lifted. Like you I believe that I had issues even before I had children. When I look back there were symptoms I had like a really heavy feeling during my period. But with me it was right after the birth of the first child that I knew for sure I had it. There are so many alternative options out there now to help with PPD. Do you see a naturopath? My experience this time around was so much better with PPD and it lastest shorter because I knew more and was able to get dietary help and alternative medicine. I am sorry if you are dealing with early menopause. I hope that you will find some answers that will give you help. I did not realize you had four children. For some reason when I read your post from an earlier time (I am trying to catch up on a lot) I thought it was only one child. I am amazed by you. I am amazed by all the women on here that go on to have more and more children with prolapse. I learn so much and get so much hope from you all.

Ribbit

May 3, 2010 - 10:09pm

People. It's okay. I've always felt defensive about stuff even if nobody was saying anything meriting it. My problem. Call it middle child syndrome or something like that.

I spent the weekend with my parents and learned a lot from my mother. She said we certainly do have a history of neuropathy and that I no doubt inherited some of it. She also said she has some prolapse as well.

I've e-mailed my sister and asked her what happy pill she's taking.

Oh, and my mother corrected me about something--their cycles didn't stop in their 30's, they stopped in their 50's. It was the hot flashes and mood swings and general craziness that started in their 30's. It took a full 20 years for things to calm down. I don't want to go through that.

louiseds

May 4, 2010 - 6:47am

I would concur with that. I think the journey from menarche to post-menopause is fraught with curves and adjustments, rather than discreet stages. I can now see my whole reproductive life morphing from one stage into another, with lots of overlap. I did not have alarmingly serious manifestations of perimenopause symptoms, but they were definitely there for that long.

But I have only just reached menopause. I wonder how long they will last into the future? Another twenty years? That's about the same length of time as my whole reproductive life!

I am beginning to think that the childbearing years can be regarded as just another 'phase'.

Louise