coffee, wine and red clover tea bags

I took red clover tincture (as advised by an ND) in attempt to cleanse my liver. It screwed up my cycles so much that Natural Family Planning failed and we have a sweet, happy baby to show for it. :)

Does that mean I needed to red clover, or does it mean it's bad for me? If it reset my cycles?

Yep, looks like they do. eg http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11420232
Louise

Hi Christine,
I'm starting to show small signs of improvement in my LS after being on the tea for not quite a week--I'm so excited! Now I want to try and work toward a healthier diet. What is your diet like? thanks! -Deb

http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?275

According to Dr. D'Adamo, not very many people should have oranges. Your blood type is A, Christine? I'm assuming. You seem like an A to me. How about trying grapefruit?

Hi Christine-
I gave your article on LS to my OB (she is a highly regarded doc who teaches and practices at Northwestern Univ here in Chicago). She seemed genuinely interested so I'll get her feedback at the end of the month at my next visit. She told me to get Healthy Trinity refrigerated probiotics because I have had yeast infections off and on since the LS began. What do you think about probiotics? I am also planning on meeting with an acupuncturist who I used to work with and getting some feedback from him on natural healing! -Deb

HI Debs,
Finally joining in here. hello!
(only i'm starting to fall asleep so this may be short).
I too have LS + yeast issues. ah, the joys. they make it so hard to know what each other are doing. I'm working very hard to resolve the yeast--haven't found a solution yet, but am trying. just read about Manuka oil. need to read more... i eat lots of live yogurt and eat lots of onion + garlic (prebiotics which are very imp't) so you'd think that would help.
do you use steroids? i was told by the specialist they they cause yeast to go out of control, so if you are that might be one reason.

i'm drinking my quart of red clover 2x a day. after starting i got a horrible patch of blisters / itching, and then a few days later another (don't think it was the clover tea...). they are resolving with lots of TLC, and so hopefully i can start to see if things are improving soon once they heal up. i also got some zinc today to take until i figure out about ensuring i get enough in food--just haven't had time / energy to look it all up.

i agree with christine about restaurants. i had a curry recently and eek! it was awful within hours. it think it's not only the oil but the sugars they stick in so many things. if i eat out i tend to just go for fish and veg and hope...

i'll chime in more soon, but sleep calls.
glad this forum is up and running though--look forward to deciphering this all and seeing us all have improved hormonal health!!!

Kiki

that is so interesting! the stuff i got originally was brown and made a brown tea. I got some new stuff that is unfortunately mostly herb with a few pink bits (my seperate bag of blossoms didn't arrive!) and it is bright green and organic. the tea is such a different colour. i just started it on sunday, and guess what--yesterday i felt so much better AND i wasn't feeling groggy and falling asleep the way i was with the first batch (i have to admit that with the first i kept thinking how can i keep going--this is knocking me out!). but with this not at all, i feel clear headed and yesterday felt less itchy.

glad to know this is how it should look....

quick question christine. do you think it is imp't to drink it in two concentrated sessions, or is sipping ongoingly enough of a trickle to have an impact? i know it isn't always practical for me to drink a quart in the morning in which case i take it out with me and drink instead of water...but wondering does that become too dilute for my system...
thoughts anyone with herbal knowledge?

Yes, Christine, some people treat their diet like a religion and that's too bad. :P I'm the one on the Blood Type Diet forums that's always saying, "This isn't a religion. If you want to eat a food that's not on your good list, EAT IT! LOL. Nobody's making anybody eat this way."

I understand where you're coming from. I do the diet because it works for me, but it might not work for everybody.

Dr. D'Adamo doesn't base anything on temperament. It's mostly blood type. His new book, The GenoType Diet, is better and takes into consideration more than just blood type. At any rate, whatever works for the individual is what's best for them. :)

that's great to hear. last couple nights i didn't finish it and took it to bed and drank it cold during the night as well.
you know, maybe it's that i've had far too many horrible chinese herbs, but i think this tastes really good! yummy cold too.
and, the new bright green one is soooooo much better than the brown one i got originally. can't wait to get some pretty blossoms to float in there.
(and i am feeling better by the day--i'm on about day 12 of my cycle and at a mild itch--not escalating as usual by now, though still have annoying blisters appearing--gotta figure out where those are coming from....)

Hey Christine, you've got to be kidding! You get your oranges from Chile? You know why? Because all the USA grown oranges get exported to Australia at this time of the year! The only oranges we can buy at the moment are California navels. Our navels don't start for another month or so, and our Valencias finished a couple of weeks ago, and were getting pretty dry and uninteresting before they stopped altogether.

With all due respect, USA oranges are the orangest oranges in the world, and so shiny, but they don't taste like oranges to me, more like, um, chicken.

I hope you can get USA oranges with more flavour than we get.

Louise

Just to put in my tuppence halfpenny, I buy Hilde Hemmes Red Clover Flower tea, which is a combination of leaves, stalks and flowers, but mostly flowers I think. It brews up to be a pale brown, much paler than the weakest of weak tea. If I leave it for longer than 10 minutes it goes darker brown.

My reading indicates that the oestrogen content is highest at early flowering, so if it is hayed off (brown with little trace of leaves) most of the oestrogen has gone. I would think that green with some flowers would be best of all. Most of the stuff I have found out about red clover and oestrogen comes from a sheep fodder perspective. Red clover is most useful as fodder in summer when it hays off. If ewes or ewe lambs eat it too much it while it is green it can make them permanently infertile. It is however used as fodder for wethers. Not sure of the effect on rams.

I think cattle are similarly affected.

Not sure about humans. I am too scared to ask, but if you plan on having more babies, or are breastfeeding, check it out with your doctor. This is one of the advantages of menopause. Sterility is cool!

I have ordered some bulk red clover tea so it will be interesting to see what it looks like. Will report.

Louise

Hi Kiki,
Gosh--I've been reading your info and Christine's about the way the red clover should look. I bought the commercial tea bags and they make a brown tea--maybe that's why I'm sleepy and still feeling somewhat itchy. I have ordered bulk organic red clover herb and should get it any day now--I can't wait--maybe it will be better. Can you tell me the name of the good green stuff and where you ordered it from? Thanks, Deb

Hi Christine,
I purchased some Red clover salve called Red Clover Plus and it seems to be somewhat helpful. It is supposed to have only organics in it. There are only a few other ingredients in the formula. Were you going to give us some instructions on making red clover salve? I just still feel so dry down there.
Thanks, Deb

Hi Kiki,
I am trying Christine's red clover regime for LS and see that you are doing the same. I thought it would be nice if we could communicate via our emails as I am feeling the need for a little support system---I'm looking forward to progressing but at the same time have days when I get anxious and down about the LS. And there's so much to work on--diet and supplements and salve, etc. If you think this is a good idea my email is [edited by administrator]. I live in Palos Hills, IL, a south suburb of Chicago. Truly, Deb

Hi Kiki,
I am going to go into my account settings and allow members to contact me--so please feel free to email me if you like and we can talk about our LS journies. deb

Hi Christine,
I always have a hard time eating healthy for breakfast because I wait to eat until I get to work. Any ideas for a light simple health breakfast?
thanks, deb

I am sorry but could you explain what LS is. I probably have that too but do not know it yet.LOL In between the tears I give an lol once in a while.

Hi Kiki/Christine,
I just got my shipment of red clover organic herb and the tea it made is still brownish. Where can I order some of the good green herb???
Thanks, Deb

HI Deb,
sorry, gotta be quick but...
tea. my herb is bright green, but the tea starts out light and as it gets stronger gets brown. what colour is your herb?

breakfast. i have friends who keep big vats of muesli at work or oatmeal and make the latter in the microwave. you could bake up healthy muffins (i make them at the moment with 75% chickpea flour, 25% regular, no sugar, and fruit--plus whatever else the recipe needs), and eat those with fresh fruit / yogurt / nuts. i think there are lots of options--it's about being prepared which definately takes time but is worth it.

Kiki

HI Heavenly,
LS is a skin condition that generally affects the vulva / anal area, most commonly with intense itching, thinning skin, white patches of scarred skin...
what makes you think you might have LS?
Kiki

Hi Christine,
Have you heard from any MDs that have read your LS article? Just wondering. thanks, deb

Has anyone using red clover tea found their urine turning pale green? I think I can put up with green wee if my dermatitis keeps healing up.

Louise

ps Promensil is red clover in pill form. You can get two different strengths in Australia, plus another one for postmenopause which is lower strength again, and has calcium or vitamin D or something as well. It is not promoted for skin conditions, only hot flushes and night sweats. I don't know how much is equivalent to the 2 really heaped tablesooons of pasture I make into tea each day, but I have bought a packet to use when travelling, or otherwise unable to make tea.

Can you have too much phytoeostrogen?

How do you tell if you are having too much?

Hi Christine

I am amazed at how quickly the red clover tea settles my dermatitis after I have stirred it up, usually by doing something rough outside.

Tonight we were out burning all the old dry grass in a paddock, so that when it rains again the new pasture can germinate and grow instead of being shaded out by silver grass and failing to thrive. I wore gloves, but even so, my poor old hands, with all the raking!

I made a pot as soon as I came in, around 6.30pm. By about 8.30pm I could no longer feel any discomfort, and my thumb, which is the worst, has shrunk (less inflammation) and is no redder than the other one.

I was staying at a city motel last night, so I didn't have my teapot, and was too tired to make tea at 1am anyway, so I took 1 1/2 tablets of Promensil, which is 60mg. My thumb is usually a bit red and inflamed by morning, but it was really good this morning. I took another 60mg this morning, and it has been good all day until I went burning this afternoon! That's 120mg per day.

I think the dermatitis is worst in the morning after a night's sleep. LS sufferers, is your LS worse or better after a night's sleep?

Promensil Menopause is 40mg (standardised) of isoflavones per tablet, equivalent of 2.5mg dried herb. I think I use about 10mg per day of red clover flower tea, the only type of red clover tea I seem to be able to get. That would be equivalent to 160mg per day

(if their herb is the same strength as mine. I doubt that it is, because 1 1/2 tablets Promensil seemed to work better than tea made with 5gm of herb. I think they probably harvest the red clover at maximum isoflavone level, which is during early flowering, then harvest the rest of it in late flowering and smash it up for selling as red clover *flower* tea, which is a less-concentrated by product! I am guessing that the highest quality herbage gets sold to Novogen for making Promensil.)

Promensil recommends one tablet per day, "may relieve menopausal symptoms and maintain cardiovascular health and slow bone loss" . Their website recommends it for night sweats and hot flashes. You can get double strength, 80mg, so that would be 80mg per day. No mention of skin conditions at all, which is weird, because it is a traditional skin improving herb. However, I have never seen dermatitis or eczma listed as a menopause symptom, but it has definitely become worse with menopause! The effect of the phyto-oestrogen certainly feels like it wears off in about twelve hours. On the box they say you should get improvement in 3 to 8 weeks. There is no mention of splitting the dose and taking it twice a day. And no mention of an immediate improvement that wears off, either. And no mention of not exceeding the recommended dose of tablets.

How much isoflavone can I take safely, Christine? I cannot find any cautions anywhere! Perhaps I know I have had too much if I fall pregnant. LOL!

Who said their red clover tea was very green?? Kiki? Did you mean in the pot, or in the packet? what is the brand? I would like to try some of your brand.

Louise

... however, if we waited for symptoms like nausea and vomiting to tell us that lead was building up in our bodies, we would be barking up the wrong tree, and would learn nothing about how our bodies were responding to this poisoning.

What symptoms do you think would really tell us if we are having more clover tea than we should?

As a separate issue, what does happen to all the high quality red clover *leaf* tea? Kiki, where are you with your potent green red clover tea??

I have shown myself that 120mg/day of isoflavones is more effective than 40mg/day, when taken as Promensil. I have also shown myself now that 10gm/day of red clover flower tea works much better than 5 gm/day red clover tea. That's a lot of clover hay to fit in my teapot! (moo! - silly old cow! ;-)). Why doesn't the red clover flower tea pack as much punch as it could? I still think it is because it is not the premium product. It is the leftovers after the high quality herbage has been harvested. There is no reason why there should be a lot of flowers in red clover tea. The high isoflavone levels are in the leaves and stems, during the first part of flowering, not the flowers themselves. By the time flowering is established the clover's isoflavone levels are falling again.

I cannot understand why red clover *flower* tea is marketed at all! It should be red clover *leaf* tea. but from the manufacturer's point of view we would need less of it, so we would buy less of it, so that means less profit for the shareholder.

I can only surmise that the high isoflavone herbage is used to standardise the product for manufacturing, ie blending lower quality material with higher quality material, and standardising it, will produce more $ per kg all round. That is the principle behind much food science, eg how much chicken do you need in a nugget before it 'becomes' a chicken nugget?

I did find standardised red clover powder from China, and red clover standardised extract. Is extract the same as tincture?

Louise

Christine, is the tincture standardised in any way? I can see that you are saying that pharmaceutical derivated/extracted herbs behave quite differently. I wonder why?

Actually, when I bite into the Promensil tablet it seems very 'clovery', ie it has that same aroma and as the tea. It is kind of greeny/grey, very like the tea.

I'll email Novogen, who manufacture Promensil, and see what they say about overdosing.

Louise

Louise--how much do you put in spoon wise? my scale is broken. i do a heaping tablespoon 2x a day.
how am i. so hard to know as i also get this horrid yeast ongoingly. when i started the clover i felt awful--i couldn't stay awake. swapped to green stuff and that went away right away. so that was great. but i also, coincidentally i think, broke out in lots of blisters where you don't want them. and every time i got rid of them, more came i think, after reading, they are yeast blisters. they are all gone now and i started douching with diluted grapefruit seed extract and for two days, no itch! however i'm also heading to my period. so i need to give it another cycle to see. i think i get two layers of itch--the yeast and the LS, and the problem is that even if the clover helps the LS i can't tell with the yeast, but i'm feeling hopeful now that the GSE seems to be helping with the yeast!
so i'll give it another cycle and let you know...watch this (starting to get excited!) space ;-)

Kiki

I have a little silver Robur teapot that has an infuser in it, that I almost fill up. I guess the infuser is about half a cup, which is about 125ml. It would probably be a *very* heaped tablespoon, twice a day.

I wonder if the clover tea changes vaginal pH? I know that vaginal pH increases (becomes more alkaline) with menopause, a thrush is supposed to be one of the symptoms of peri/menopause. One of the characteristics of menopause is low oestrogen, so there is possibly a link.

This is why I am trying to quantify it a bit, so I know how much I am taking, but it is hard. The figures are so rubbery.

I would really like to know the brand of your really green clover tea. PM me if you would prefer. I have not been able to find any proper red clover leaf tea.

We could all start sending each other small baggies of plant material, all over the world. Now that would get Wholewoman some attention, wouldn't it?

I don't want to alarm you, but do you have a history of early menopause in your family?

Hope your period comes and goes smoothly.

Louise

Hi Christine,
I just had to write to you today to get your thoughts on this one----I went to my OB 2 days ago. I've been on the red clover tea and salve now about 2 weeks with some promising results. Much of the redness and itching is gone but there is still some significant redness and irritation right around the vaginal opening. My OB acknowledged that things looked generally better down there. She knows my feelings about steroids, so she prescribed a "new" salve that she and her partner have been prescribing--pregabalin--the drug that is used to treat post herpetic pain/rash. How is this going to help the inflammation? I was so disappointed. I guess I will try it but then I don't want to go backwards on the progress I've made with the red clover tea either. Help! Please send me your thoughts!! Thanks, Deb

Hi Debspups

We are so used to pharmacological drugs that act quickly, that we expect dis-eases to go away instantly. It seems to me that red clover does give an immediate response, but it is not a complete response. My dermatitis has significantly improved since I started red clover tea about six(?) weeks ago, but it hasn't disappeared completely. I can understand that because many conditions do not have a single cause, and need to attacked from several different directions.

I am now trying to go to bed earlier, address some causes of stress, having less inflammatory foods and more inflammation fighting foods, eat more regularly, etc. I am hoping these things will help get rid of it completely. I don't expect that it will be gone for at least six months because it has been there, and getting worse for several years. I think the last stage will take the longest.

I think red clover works at an acute level, but also eats away slowly at 'accumulated' inflammation. I know that taken orally, oestrogen levels build up quickly and leave the body quickly, which is why the contaceptive pill needs to be taken daily, and at the same time, but I think all these things hang around at a low level for some time, which is when the healing of chronic conditions happens. From Christine's research it seems that the isoflavones in red clover do not have a direct effect, but work by taking up space normally taken by the inflammatory metabolites of oestrogens that originated in the body in the first place. So it is a secondary effect in a very complicated piece of physiology.

It may be that the residual inflammation may be secondary to the LS, and will settle in time. I have had inflammation left after thrush had gone, and it took some time to settle down, but I didn't need more treatment to make it heal. It healed by itself.

I don't know anything about this drug either, and I would do some googling before embarking on using it, just so you know as much as you can about it. Many registered drugs have turned out to have serious side effects only after widespread use in a variety of situations. However, I am not much of a gambler when it comes to newish drugs and practices. I would prefer them to find out any unexpected things before they try it on me!

Louise

It's so hard I know! and harder when you are going to the doctor, who will invariably try to give you something of theirs' to try. but if you are getting positive signs after only a couple weeks, that is really promising! what about giving it another month and see where you are at then? you can just keep an eye on things to be sure nothing really unpleasant is happening--on the other hand, setbacks are just par for the course, so don't get to anxious if you get one. i agree with Louise--this will take time. I understand the impatience--but if we want to try the long term route, we've got to be willing to give it time.
if you want ot try the medicine, find out all you can about it. see how it works, and what it will do. what side effects can it have? can you easily wean off it? find out all before you start, and decide where to go from there...

Hi Christine and Friends,
I went to put on my red clover salve this morning and saw that my inner labia is really starting to shrink. I freaked out a little. Has anyone experienced this? Do you think this will ever settle down and stop!
Help! Truly, Deb

Hi Christine

My vulva, and I think my mons pubis, have has shrunk considerably over the last few years. Neither offer much padding during coitus any more. Perhaps I have discovered a new use for washable, blowup ring cushions?

Hey, hopscotch could be added to the workout, along with walking along the top of fences, climbing trees and pretending to be a bird, but only at ground level. I too can only 'fly just a little bit' if I jump off the roof. (Kiddies, don't try this at home!) They all have lots of wing flapping, hanging and balancing.:-)

Debspups, I wonder if the shrinkage is just inflammation going down?

Louise

Thanks Guys--
Keep the therapy coming! God knows I need some major help! Now off with a friend for some red wine! I know... I know... its not on the list...but as an aside......A friend has referred me to a naturopath friend of hers who helps individuals with liver cleansing and actually makes what you drink for the time you are on the diet....and with, I hear, some amazing results.
Don't forget now---keep the therapy coming! deb

I went through lots of periods of thinking everything was shrinking. as Louise said, keep an eye on inflammation. i realised that my go through monthly cycles of inflammation, and even daily ones. some bits are bigger in the morning, some smaller, some bigger mid cycle...

and after all my panicking, these have remained vaguely the same. so maybe watch over a month before you are sure there really are changes going on.

i sometimes wonder if gentle stretching to the area might keep the skin more elastic...no idea.

and keep us updated on the naturopath--sounds interesting! it's all about balance, and the more the better (which is also helpful for that hopscotch game!!!)

i'm drinking my lovely tea as we talk, with a bit of lemon in it. new twist ;-)

it did just strike me that, being that my labia fused back in my teens, i'm probably in big trouble when it comes to shrinking, being that there is not much there to shrink... good to know it's to be expected, will be er, interesting to see how it manifests!

Hi Kiki

Forgive me if I am butting in unwelcome.

What do you mean when you say your labia fused when you were in your teens? And what happened in your vulval area during the birth of your babies?

Louise