phytoestrogens vs. synthetic hormones

Hi Kiki,

Everything I know is in the paper and I’m in no way an expert on the subject, but will try to answer your questions from that context.

The way I understand it, most phytoestrogens do not add to the total amount of estrogen in the body. It’s not like that at all. Rather, they compete for estrogen receptors with some of the lesser metabolites (breakdown products of estradiol and estrone).

The estrogen receptor is the principle player in all of this. Fields of ERa and ERb, along with AR, shift during certain times or conditions in our lives. Menopause and taking birth control pills are two examples. It appears from the data that vulvodynia, highly correlated with BCPs, is caused by a shift in those receptors. What seems to happen is ERa and AR go away and are replaced by lots of ERb. Some of the most inflammatory estrogen metabolites have high affinity for ERb and that is what causes symptoms of vulva dystrophy. Certain phytoestrogens - red clover in particular - has higher affinity for ERb than the metabolites. So these attach to the receptors instead.

How is it that phytoestrogens improve symptoms? Well, they cause a more neutral gene sequence to happen that does not result in DNA strand breaks and other inflammatory events caused by certain metabolites. Every molecule capable of attaching to the estrogen receptor causes genetic transcription - even certain toxic chemicals from plastic and pesticides. Probably because we have co-existed with plants for such a long time, they have a benign effect upon transcription. At least one plant, hops, behaves a lot like estradiol because it has very high affinity for ERa, and can even cause the endometrium to grow. But that is an exception.

I only have my personal experience with red clover to share with you, but it seems to be very normalizing. I imagine it is considered to be an “adaptogen”, in that it has a particular ability to balance bodily systems. Louise’s skin condition is a case in point.

Hope this helps clarify things a bit.

:) Christine

Kiki, I think my experiments with Promensil and red clover flower tea have demonstrated that it is needed at least twice a day to keep the levels up and prevent the baddies attaching. It is kind of like keeping your pantry safe by putting mousse baits in the ceiling. While there is sufficient bait in the roof the mice will not get into the pantry. But if you let the baits run out the mice will be back with avengence.

I am wondering what will happen late in post-menopause. Christine, don't LH levels even out at a lower level in old age? Does it all even out in the end? Are all the really old ladies in the world suffering like their sisters who are only just though menopause?

Louise

Still not understanding red clover and keeping what levels up. I have been through menopause a few years back. What does this tea do? Does it have an effect on my cys or rec in anyway?Would it be a good thing for me to take?Sorry I am a bit slow. I looked it up on the computer but still not sure why so many of you are taking it 2 or three times a day. Need all the help I can get.
Thanks

...we are talking about red clover in reference to its phytoestrogenic capacities to help certain hormonal disorders - not prolapse. :)

Kiki, here is a quote by Christiane Northrup from an article on the fiftieth anniversary of the Pill:

"Ironically, research shows that oral contraceptives might actually contribute to long-term sexual dysfunction in some women. The January 2006 issue of The Journal of Sexual Medicine reports that the pill lowers levels of testosterone, even after the women have stopped taking oral contraceptives. Such problems occur because pill users have elevated levels of a protein called sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) that binds testosterone, rendering it unavailable for use by the body.

Low values of "unbound" testosterone potentially lead to side effects such as decreased desire, arousal and lubrication and increased sexual pain. Although some research showed that such problems persisted even after the pill was discontinued, long-term studies are still needed to determine if the problems are permanent."

I have read elsewhere that these changes are difficult to reverse, but do not agree that it is due to SHBG. Rather, the receptor fields change. This area of research is very new and we should have more information in the near future.

Louise, I, too, am under the impression that LH levels decline significantly by ten years or so past menopause.