Can prolapse be reversed, prevented?

Hi Mermaid

Wholewoman has only been going since 2002 so we really don't have any proof that we are reversing prolapses. Doctors tell us that prolapses won't heal, but many of us have such amazing symptomatic relief over an extended period of time that it seems like there can be some reversal. It is as if the stretched bits can regain some of their shape if allowed to, even if the torn or cut bits cannot join up. Something like that, anyway.

It seems that once POP has progressed significantly, it will keep progressing, no matter what we do, but generally it does stop progressing eventually, short of the introitus, as long as WW posture and other factors are maintained, particularly when doing things that generate a lot of intraabdominal pressure, which will push the organs further out of position. We have never had a woman on these Forums who has the uterus or bladder actually hanging outside the vulva.

Having POP until the end of my days is what I am expecting, but if it never gets any worse than this, I will be very, very happy, and will not find it disabling. My symptoms are pretty mild these days, and I no longer have the fear that I once had that it would keep progressing downwards at the same rate as it did when my POPs first became apparent. BTW, I am 57, had my last period about 15 months ago, have had three vaginal births. I have been doing Wholewoman techniques for almost six years, and my POPs don't stop me doing anything. I have workarounds so I don't have to do heavy lifting, have found ways of stopping a cold turning into months of coughing, and keeping my bowels behaving themselves. Life is good, and I am sure it can get better for you too.

Louise

HIya & welcome!
interestign Louise you say no proof of POP being reversed. maybe it's how you look at it. mine aren't gone, but could i say reversed in that they have improved soooo much i never could have believed it? what used to hang far too low is now completely dealable. so yes, i too imagine its hear with me till the end, but where it is is manageable so can make it to the end...

mermaid? do you have the DVD? you will find so much good info on the posture, excercises, etc. book is fabulous too for understanding our bodies and why we want to avoid surgery!

sex. i found at the beginning it was uncomfortable, but finding new positions really helped. my cervix was very low and think that it was pushing stuff in uncomfortable places. some positions still don't feel good (or even hurt) but most are absolutely fine, so not a problem, and many women find sex helps to rearrange things and give lift. so keep experimenting!

Hi Kiki and Mermaid

Sorry Kiki, what I meant was that we have no proof that the damage to the fascia can be reversed. Of course prolapse of pelvic organs can be reversed. You and I and all the other Members have done it, and do it daily, but the reversal is dependent on our *continually* 24/7 using our bodies to support that reversal!

Mermaid, I can honestly say that my prolapses do not affect my everyday life significantly. There are things I will not do, like lifting loads that make my vulva uncomfortable when I am lifting according to WW principles. I will not wrestle our ewes to the ground, which weigh about 85kg. I will not lift a trailer drawbar onto a tow hitch. But I will lift (carefully) a slab of beer or a carton of wine. I will roll big rocks onto a bag trolley and haul them around the garden. I do build rock walls, with a lot of planning, a lot of time, and mechanical assistance. I do all our shopping and cart it in to the house. I do belly dance regularly. I do all sorts of dancing at parties, given room. I run, and jump, but like Christine, stamina is not at the level of a child or teenager. I haven't tried the pogo stick yet. I have an active and comfortable sex life. I get in and out of boats and over fences. I climb trees and ladders. I drive long distances regularly. What is there that I don't do? Yes, I take all care and move mostly in a controlled way, but my POPs certainly don't hold me back. I can always find a way around any difficulties, and I rarely get pain that I cannot alleviate without analgesics.

Maybe I am lucky, or maybe I have discovered a lot about alleviating pain, after half a lifetime of back and neck pain. I have also made some big head shifts in what I can expect of myself. I have been doing Wholewoman techniques for nearly 6 years now, and no doubt I now do some things automatically, so I don't have to consciously think about how to do a task without damaging myself.

I am sure that in time you will experience significant improvement in pain and discomfort if you work hard towards learning about your body, and how to use it differently, and adapting your attitudes. It is often quite hard to strengthen your body after a long time being sedentary and being limited in what you can do. Wholewoman posture actively uses more muscles than normal posture. Making this a comfortable experience takes time, but every step you take and every move you make will strengthen your body, if you use your body.

I try to carry within my abilities, instead of pushing a trolley. I use seats, but don't lean back. I walk instead of taking a car. I do multiple loads and multiple trips, instead of overloading myself and creating more intraabdominal pressure than I have to. You figure it out after a while. My mobility and autonomy and strength are important to me, so I am prepared to invest a lot of time and energy in maintaining this temple of my soul. God has work for me to do, and I cannot do it without a functional body.

The choice is up to each of us.

BTW, I now have a model skeleton with articulating sacroiliac joints, and a very good atlas of musculo-skeletal anatomy, as well as Saving the Wholewoman and FirstAid for Prolapse. These are my main resources for learning about my body, and passing this learning on to others.

Re the pain you experience with sex, can you describe it for me? Where is it? What sort of pain is it? Is there some action that particularly makes your hurt? If you don't want to discuss this on the open Forums, email me via my profile. Just click on my red username link, then click on the Contact Tab in my profile.

So glad you have joined us on this journey to healing.

Louise

zigged when I shoulda zagged- my dh says that.
and dr.google- that's too funny.
I'm tossing my 2 cents in here.
I think finding positions that work is key to getting around the pain issue. Maybe starting slow and warming up to it-
What does the uterus do during orgasm? does it pull up higher or does it flex down? If it pulls up then maybe having an orgasm before penetration would work better? The uterus will pull the urethra up with it. Also, I would think hands and knees or elbows and knees sometime before to jiggle the bladder forward would help too (I bet you could work that into your time together in a fun way).
I think knowing what is causing the pinching sensation is probably the best way to find a way around it.
Some positions may cause the skin to catch on itself and drag- sort of fold over- and feel like a pinch.
if you figure out what it is and what works to solve it would you let us know?

Hi Mermaid,

I have a urethracele (in addition to others) and I have just begun using the sponge to help with vigorous activity. You are right in that it misses the mark -- but I think it does help. When I lie down and insert the sponge that way I can kind of scoot the urethracele behind it. I always feel a bubble when this happens and then the bubble feeling is relieved as soon as the sponge finds a nook that allows the urethracele to poke out, but it still supports the uterus and bladder. Does this make sense? This is when the sponge, and organs, feel like they are on solid ground.

Best to you.

Hey mermaid

Sounds like you have ended up in the right place to learn stuff and teach us stuff as well. I never had the benefit of the feminist self-examination parties of the 1970's. I had to organise my own party in the 1990's! I rue all those years of living with my yoni and not knowing her very well.

Do you use your yoni oil as a lubricant? If not, what do you use? DH and I have tried a variety of lubes over the years, and they are all different. These days I find that Wholewoman Bliss Balm is the best. We find it better than the lighter, massage-type or food-type oils, though olive oil is not too bad, but it is a thicker oil than, say almond oil.

I get that same pain on entry, some times worse than others, but mine is sometimes more on the perineal side than the urethra side. I had always thought this was variations in coitus positions but you may be right. It might signal involvement of the malpositioned urethra. I really think I might have urethrocele as well as everything else, but I don't really think it matters what it is, the principles are the same. Pull your body up and forward, and the bladder will come forward and stretch the urethra forward with it.

Sometimes coitus is OK without any lube, but usually I use Bliss Balm, which makes it much better, though there is really nothing like long foreplay to soften things up, then use Bliss Balm as well. Foreplay will bring more blood to the vulva, and it does get more juicy, more yielding, and has more give, for me anyway, but it does seem to take longer these days, probably because I need to be really ready, not half-ready as I could before. I am only about 18mo past my LMP , so mine may change more yet.

I am of the opinion that LMP is only one of the measures of the Change, and bleeding may stop either toward the beginning of the Change, or toward the end, depending on how your individual body and uterus respond to the changes in hormone levels. This would explain how some women get other menopause signs well before bleeding stops, and others get them only after bleeding has stopped.

Bliss Balm is now unfortunately completely out of stock, and Christine is investigating getting another batch made. In the meantime, it is based on coconut oil, olive oil and beeswax, but I cannot give you ratios. We have very hot summers here, and the Bliss Balm gets up around 30 degrees C on hot summer nights, and gets too runny to stay in the jar if the jar gets tipped over (boohoo). That's probably only during January. In winter, it probably gets down to around 14 degrees C in our bedroom. It is currently 19 degrees and the Bliss Balm is like hard butter, but the surface melts with the warmth of a finger. The really nice thing about Bliss Balm is this melting at body temperature, but mainly staying solid. I think it might be the coconut oil that melts at body temperature, a bit like Copha shortening. It doesn't pull the vulva tissues when you are spreading it around, yet it is quite tacky and persists when others would get rubbed out of the way, like the water based gels.

Re the hand truck, it is my pride and joy. I also use a wheelbarrow quite a bit, but the disadvantage is that the load has to be lifted into the barrow. Usually my hand truck loads have to end up back at ground level, so there is little point in lifting the load, only to have to dump it out again. I would really like a hand truck that I could park with a strut that would park it on an angle, so I could stack firewood up the vertical part as well without it falling off the front. A sheet of weldmesh laid up the vertical part stops small bits slipping through the cracks. I have found this useful for transporting sandwiches of hay from big square bales. I just use an overwidth piece of weldmesh, wire it on firmly, and add extensions to the handles so I can wheel it lying flat, without bending. Working out whether to push it (with the trolley leaning against my hips) or pull it (walking backwards, which is POP-risky) or pull it (walking forwards with the trolley behind me with my butt sticking out) is better. It is a matter of trial and error. The important thing seems to be to have the point of attachment at or below your centre of gravity and your arms straight, and shoulders relaxed. It is also important with real big loads, to be able to judge whether to risk damaging yourself or to just say, "Stuff it!", have a cup of tea, and wait for a brawny helper. It is rarely worth risking it, cos if your POPs get stirred up it could be a few days until you are back to baseline again. Waste of time and effort.

Is that what you meant?

Louise

ps, my next purchase in the mechanical aids department will be a mini-loader, expensive but a wonderful husband substitute in the heavy lifting department. I am buying a new car, and have decided to buy a real little one, when DH would prefer one more luxurious with a smoother ride, for when he inevitably borrows it. The mini-digger will cost about the same as the difference in price between DH's choice and my choice, so we're even. DH had a hernia op last year, and is no longer willing or able to dig holes, shovel dirt etc, or so he says, so he is being partially replaced by a machine, http://www.doublea.co.uk/shop.cfm?ProductID=891&Type=N. The upside for him will be that he can use it for loading sick sheep onto the ute (pickup), bags of fertiliser onto the seeder, and getting heavy things off the ute. This will no doubt extend the years both of us can spend doing heavy stuff, as well as saving me from pushing my luck with heavy loads. This wonderful little machine and equivalent machines from other manufacturers is that it is small enough to fit through a domestic doorway. Think about that for a minute! I can bring heavy shopping right into the kitchen!

Funny though, how ads for rideon mowers always have slim young things wearing short shorts with miles of tanned leg hanging out the bottom of them, while mini-diggers have meaty, nuggety little tradesmen in their ads. So its OK to send the old girl out to mow the lawns, but not to excavate the hole for the swimming pool? Oh, I get it. The man looks at the mower after he has checked out the girl, but what about the nuggety little tradie. Why isn't he the centrefold, wearing lycra footy shorts with hobnailed boots and a luscious, lovely body? Or have I missed the point?

I do not use oral hormone replacement. I use low % topical creams. Sorry, I wasn't more specific in former posts. I have very fibroid breasts making mammography difficult. I usually need two each year so they can watch this and that. I am hoping the progesterone cream will help reduce the fibroid shadows and make imaging better. I haven't had a hot flash since last September, and I was having sometimes two each day. I apply the testosterone to my perineum and the estrogen to my vagina. I think it has been helpful.
Melly

Hi Mermaid

This term vaginal atrophy seems to be very rubbery. It is used to mean anything from vaginal dryness to the progressive shrinkage and disappearance of the vulva (like you can get with lichen sclerosus). I am not sure that all people who use the term are actually talking about the vagina at all. I think you have to be a bit careful when reading about vaginal 'anything' because the writer is often using the word vagina, when they mean vulva, or various part of the vulva. If they can't say vulva when they mean vulva, what credibility do they have with anything else they say?

While vaginal dryness is a bit of a pain, I think most women on these Forums find that the vulval soreness and irritation is far more significant in their lives than a sore vagina.

I had a look at a question about vaginal atrophy and dryness on Dr Susan Love's site. She makes some very general statements along the lines that "Doctors have found that", "doctors advise women to", and "many women find", along with a few "there have been no long term studies of ...", which often does not fill me with confidence about the statement that preceded it. :-(

This tells me that these facts are more along the lines of general statements. They are not backed up by research references on the site, and we do not know which doctors she is talking about, or who funded the research. The American Menopause Society are simply an organisation made up of doctors who pay a fee to join, and who have an interest in menopause, though I cannot find any evidence that they necessarily have demonstrated skill in the area, nor special qualifications that set them apart from other doctors. That is not to say that they don't know what they are talking about, but that as women we need to be very critical of any information that is given in a general context on a website. Seek out the research findings, rather than listen to secondhand recommendations from 'doctors', whatever their brand.

Sorry if I sound a bit cynical tonight. Perhaps I have just had too many negative things happen today, and I am feeling critical.

Having sore genitals can really mess up your life. Yes, Vagifem might be a solution, but every woman who uses it has to come to her own conclusion, based on her assessment of its risk. I think I will stick to my Bliss Balm, but I am interested in hearing from anybody who is trying red clover salve on their sore vulva.

Louise

Hi Louise,
I know Christine swears by the red clover salve. I bought some very nice triple red clover ointment from St. Johns Farms on line. I use it every day. It's soothing but has done nothing for the inflammation. I wish soooo very much I could find something natural to deal with this inflammation!! I am frustrated because I have not been able to have sex for a year now! I am also very depressed about it. deb

Hi Debs

Sorry to hear that the red clover salve is not helping. I'm sorry, I have forgotten - is the problem your vagina or your vulva? If it is the vagina, then red clover may not help, though its base may be soothing. The vagina does not have the same oestrogen receptors as the vulva. There is a very definite line of demarcation between the two types of tissue. Christine wrote about this somewhere, I am sure.

I made my own salve for my hands. I used 1 tsp Lucas pawpaw ointment in this case (medical grade petroleum jelly base, yuk) warmed to the point where I could incorporate ten drops of tincture of red clover that I bought quite unexpectedly in a dropper bottle for about $8 from a pharmacy where a naturopath was working that day. That tincture will keep me in salve for months! I am trying to find some anhydrous lanolin to use as an alternative base, as it is quite tacky at body temperature, which I need to keep it where I put it.

I think you will need a more runny base, like apricot or coconut oil, as your genital tissues will be far less robust than the palmar surfaces of my hands and fingers. The friction generated while applying a heavy salve would not be helpful.

I am not surprised that you are depressed about this. PM me if you want to discuss the gritty details.

Louise

I was diagnosed with a stage 2 several years ago. The nurse practitioner sent me home with vagifem and Kegel to-do's. I used that vagifem for about a month and finally ditched it because I found it extremely irritating (discharge and stinging). Eventually, it seemed like the POP had kind of cleared up and I rarely thought about it - only occasionally when I would lift a lot of heavy objects or move furniture or chase around grandkids (I'm 60). Then, all of a sudden, for no reason I can think of, BAM. . .it's back!!
Which sent me scrambling onto the internet looking for information and finding this site. The aforementioned nurse practitioner is a fellow sufferer with POP and advised against surgery. . .she said she knows all too well the difficulties involved and hopes to delay the possibility herself for as long as possible.

I have to say, at this moment, surgery doesn't sound all that bad. I would not want to live with this discomfort day after day if there was a ray of hope that surgery could eliminate it. And, I have to wonder, if today's methods aren't a bit more advanced and effective than they were in the 80's, when Christine had hers?

I did order the book and DVD as a first option though. I guess I'm just a bit skeptical that these apparent exercises are going to change this monster. I want to slay the monster!!!

Upon pondering as to why I have this problem to begin with, I have to think it might have had something to do with the "nazi" doctor who pulled the after-birth from my womb after I had given birth to my first child (2 pregnancies,1 miscarriage). I guess he had a golf game he was in a hurry to get back to, or something, and was tired of waiting for it to naturally expel itself. Of course, he didn't ask for my permission to do this either. It hurt like crazy and I had bouts of profound pain for a year afterward.

Hey notsofunny. Don't think the methods have changed all that much- like since the 1800s lol
Glad you are here and that you got the book and dvd- let us know how it goes.
and man that sucks about the placenta. I am sorry you had to have that experience.
If you do decide to do the surgery I sure hope your dr. doesn't have a golf game to get back to ;)

Hey Alemama

So glad your little boy is now better. What a relief, eh? You seem to be in pretty high spirits. Good to see.

Alemana, hi!
Well, I certainly wouldn't go back to that doctor - but he's probably long since retired. That incident happened in 1977, by the way. I didn't have any other options except for this one doctor. In retrospect, I may as well have taken my chances with a home birth for all the bad he did me. Episiotomy too. And, no, he didn't ask. Interestingly, when I had my daughter 7 years later I was able to go to a midwife/birth center and when the baby was crowning they just let me tear (you probably know that tearing heals better that a cut). And, of course, I tore right along the old episiotomy scar. I most likely never needed that episiotomy in the first place and never would have torn the second time around. This just makes me so mad, but I should get over it. Ah, but if I'd only know then what I know now !
Went to see my nurse practitioner and we discussed the situation more. After talking to her and reading the book, I think there's NO WAY I would opt for surgery. I've got between a 1st, 2nd degree prolapse so I'm hoping to reverse this thing before it gets worse.
And here's something too: I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps MEN should even be allowed to practice gynecology/obstetrics. They have no way of understanding how these things impact us so seriously. Do I sound like a female chauvinist pig? Oh well.

Hi Notsofunny

There is some truth in what you say about men not being allowed to practise ob/gyn, but unfortunately being female doesn't guarantee anything either. It is more to do with who trains them, and their attitude towards women's bodies adn birthing mothers' opinions. Also how paranoid they are about harming babies by not getting them out soon enough. I don't think they have any idea at all about what is normal in the way of how they decide whether or not to cut. I think the time constraints and golf course appointments are the main problem.;-) And they are not very good at letting the woman birth the baby herself, or they can't justify their charges!

I also guess that there are a lot of women who expect the ob to 'deliver' their baby, rather than birthing it themselves. That's what the women are taught will happen. ("I can help you") And that's probably what the doctors are taught too! Getting past those stereotypical expectations is the hard part, especially if you have never met the ob or the hozzie midwives before. Nightmare!

I seem to have a slight urethrocele, have always found sex painful on entry after first few minutes then I am generally ok. I dont know what caused it, I had pretty awful experience of losing my virginity it was extremely painful and took a lot of attempts there was signifigant blood loss and I remember even then, feeling a bit strange inside but though that was to be expected, I am now 37 and Have a daughter of 9. Throughout my life I have problems with sex on entry and feel I need to push something up, I have no incontinenece no real pain just sometimes cystitus, sometimes after sex. which can be a real downer. When I was pregnant I felt it more pushing out my vagina, and when I was in labour the doc thought the baby was coming but no it was the vagina walls so the midwife said I was upset about that, I have saw various doctors and I get extrememy upset to talk about it as It brings up so much unanswered questions and troubling feelings, and noone seems to care.
I had extreme postnatal depression and my obstetrician was scary I had 3 he was the last and he pushed me to the limit and then emergency sectioned me. Also made me feel really weird bit of a arrogant sicko, it took me 6 years to let it go, I honestly felt he was sadistic and felt he overdid the internals. I talked to docs about innapropriate comments he made but they were not obvious enough and the docs stick together generally. I felt so low in myself for years after and struggled to be a happy mum. I had a bad experience with a guy which also made me feel worse down below,he basically really hurt me but said he didnt realise.It was pretty traumatic and confusing time.
I have just met someone that I feel is special and I want to be able to have a normal sex life we slept together and he wanted me to go on top, I didnt really want to but for some reason he asked me 3 times so I though ok however I think that position is worse for me but I really dont want to tell him. I feel like a freak my health visitor laughed when I told her about it after I had my baby she said its only 90 year old women that get urethroceles and my doc said my front wall was very lax but that its normal that was a few years ago. It did become an issue after the bad experience with the guy, and I was plagued with thrush and cystitus for a bout a year after that and then it settled down a bit, sex seems to irritate it ...I know I have to find a way to deal with and live with this but any advice and support would really be appreciated.

Hi Louiseds,

I think it was my feeble attempt at sarcasm - because for certain, there are some bad women ob/gyn's out there too.
What this site is all about: Enlightenment, options, empowerment, knowing, learning, supporting. I could go on and on. It's all good.
I got the book and CD last week and I'm doing my best to get the exercises going. Some of them I have to tweak. For instance, I can't sit on my heels because of an old knee injury and some osteoarthritis, so I do those either sitting in a chair, cross legged or legs straight out. I experience a bit of dizziness when doing some of those which require the head going back - so I modify the backwards stretch. I wonder if Christine might take some of our infirmities into account on future updates to her CD and give us appropriate alternatives?
After talking to my lovely nurse practitioner I have decided to go with vagifem - just several times a month and then maybe once (or less) a month. I do feel like I need to address the vaginal atrophy in a serious way right now because I think the prolapse is best helped with that kind of therapy too. Hopefully, I will be able to get along without pharmaceuticals eventually - I've never been fond of them. Sometimes, it's a necessary evil.

It certainly sounds like you have had a series of bad encounters, or people who didn't have your interests at heart.

How would you feel about discussing these difficulties more openly with your current lover?

I am also wondering if he gives you time to become properly aroused, which will plump up your vulva and vagina, and allow the tissues to slide over each other more easily. I am talking about plenty of foreplay, all afternoon if you can get away with it! Use plenty of lube (on both of you). If you are on top during coitus it does enable you to be in charge of all the pushing and pulling, so you can go your own pace, and adjust the angle of penetration to suit your body better. Use the opportunity of being on top to stick your butt out the back and allow your belly to lie on his belly. Relax your tummy muscles to allow your bladder and uterus to slide forwards. This will get your urethral opening out of the way a bit so it is not subject to so much friction.

You might find that the cystitis will settle down after you get used to each other's bacteria. Cystitis often seems to be related to having a new partner. However, with all the bad experiences your vagina has had you probably get a bit stressed out with sex as well. There is nothing like negative stress to prevent arousal, self lubrication and satisfaction.

How about trying using a female condom? These are quite large, ie they fit the vagina, rather than the penis. This might protect you from his bacteria and also from the rubbing that leads to irritation, that in turn leads to infection.

It is also possible that you already have low grade thrush, and that it is the thrush that is causing the cystitis. Have you done anything to reduce any subclinical thrush that is there now?

There are so many variables. I hope we can help you to get your body working better.

Louise

Hi Louise,
Thank you so much for your helpful and caring response, I am glad to say the cystitis has gone, there seems to be no thrush. I have slept with my new partner again and this time I asked him to go on top and to be gentle going in which he was, we did have some foreplay and there was plenty lubrication so it was much better. He doesnt seem to be aware of anything not being right and I dont feel able to discuss it yet with him as its quite difficult for me to talk about just now I am feeling ok with it and am glad to have found this group.

Dear Louise,

Thank you so, so much for your comments to Mermaid. -I cannot tell you how much your positive view of POP helps me on this day. I believe I have a urethral prolapse and possibly a bladder prolaspse as well. I will be seeing a urologist on Arpril 6th, so I suppose he will diagnois this officially.

I too, am finding sex painful and I also experience what I can only term as a "blockage" when I am on top. It actually made it difficult for my husband to stay in. I was devastated, as this is the first time this has happened to me. Also, before I was on top, I found that I could not feel my husband's penis as well, while I was on the bottom (and that is why we flipped over).

I have a feeling the urologist will suggest a pessary of some sort. What is your take on pesseries, Louise? If there is a link you can refer me to, so as to not make too much work for you, then I would be most grateful. I am trying to look up information as well on vaginal cones...I'm not sure if they are useful for ALL types of prolapses or if they may be more harmful than good with a urethral prolapse. At this point, I will try anything.

I should also mention to you that I have "I.C." (mast cells present on bladder wall). I have had 4 precious children in the span of 5 years, with first 2 born via c-section and that last 2 being born vaginally. -With the first c-section, the doctor "nicked" my bladder, which was quite distended, due the fact that they had given me an epidural with no catheter and so my bladder was the size of a giant balloon. I explain this, as I think it pieces together for me a likely reason for my urethral prolapse now (I can see it in the vaginal opening upon my own examination).

Thank you so much again! I also forgot to mention that under the topic, "Bodywork", I wrote a post just yesterday, asking the question of whether or not having an abdominoplasty/tummy tuck can possibly help with POP...it is a burning question for me because I will be getting one this summer. I feel that taking the pressure off this area (i.e. apron of skin) could be of benefit and I may even ask my doctor if this could possibly be partially covered.

Hugs to you for your time and patience...and help.

Sincerely,
Zephir