DIM

Submitted by kiki on June 8, 2010 - 3:53pm
Body: 

I was reading about "DIM", or Diindolylmethane

lots of sources say similar things, but that it seems to restore estrogen balance. they talk about " Scientific research shows diindolylmethane increases the level of "good" estrogens (2-hydroxyestrogen) while reducing the level of "bad" estrogens (16-hydroxyestrogen)."

Wondering Christine how this would fit in with LS, and if you think it could help to rebalance the hormones involved in LS?

also if chronic yeast is caused by hormones being out, would they possible be helped?
i know there are no firm answers, but wondering if it fits in the with theory of this....
thanks!
Kiki

Christine

June 8, 2010 - 4:02pm

...but I'm aware that this product has helped some people's LS symptoms. It is the methyl component, which we get from sulfur-rich foods, that is the active ingredient. Worth a try, for sure.

debspups

June 9, 2010 - 9:34am

Hi Kiki,
I started researching DIM too since I have LS--wow!--what I read sounds promising. I pulled up a lot of info written by investigator Dr. Michael Zeligs, MD. Please let me know if you are going to start to use this because I think I will too-- and we can keep in touch and compare notes! Thank you soooo much for putting this out there! Always excited to find new hope! -deb

Christine

June 9, 2010 - 9:07pm

Hi Deb and Kiki,

When I read this post I was actually thinking of methylsulfonylmethane, or MSM. I wouldn’t give up completely on the phytoestrogens, but this is probably a logical next step to pursue. I have wanted to look into MSM (remember we talked about it some months ago, Kiki?) but have not yet taken the time. I have no idea whether it would be preferable to DIM (diindolylmethane).

I have had one woman email me (perhaps a year ago) telling me her LS symptoms had resolved with MSM. There were also people on the big UK LS support forum (which doesn’t exist anymore) taking DIM. Do you remember, Kiki? I think you were on that forum, weren’t you? As I recall, DIM was not talked about as a cure-all, but rather part of some people’s overall approach to healing.

I, too, have had a flare this week. Entirely too much work, long hours, and a lot of stress. What I have come back to is the extreme importance of slowing down and guarding our senses and stress levels. The one thing that rings true over and over with LS sufferers is how their symptoms are associated with stress. I have termed LS a disease of estrogen metabolism, but it most certainly is influenced by the adrenals and our major stress hormone, cortisol.

With this latest flare I was able to sense how “hot” my urine seemed as I imagined my body detoxing from lots of stress. I haven’t begun to study metabolites of cortisol, which may very well be inflammatory too.

Am looking forward to hearing of any results.

Christine

kiki

June 10, 2010 - 12:47am

HI Christine,

thanks for this. I did say about taking MSM but didn't get further. Supposed to be good for yeast as well. I know DIM is meant to get hormones back in line, not sure how MSM works but should read more.
hmmm, do i try one, do i try both...
ok,
i just found solgar do an MSM who i know are a good brand, so saves hunting for a decent one, so i think i will just order it and give it a try! I'll also order some DIM via the states as toooo expensive here. sounds like DIM would be good no matter what to try to rebalance so would be good to try, and I'll keep going with my red clover as it does make soooo much sense.

early to say, but...the balm is definitely helping the anal itch to improve, but after three days i had a HUGE flare up in the rest, so hard to tell what's going on (think it's either a candida reaction to some buckwheat, or a skin reaction to the oil in the non dairy milk used to make the pancakes...). argh! was feeling so positive, getting more sleep, nice and relaxed... then i decided to eat something other than veg! but only a small step back.

back to doctor this morning to decide a way forward...will see what say.

thanks as always!
Kiki

alemama

June 10, 2010 - 8:19am

Kiki,
You make it so easy for me to think LS is a nuisance but not a big deal. Man, these flares make it sound perfectly dreadful. What the heck! I am so sorry you all have to deal with this.
Sending healing vibes your way- I hope this most recent flare resolves quickly.

kiki

June 10, 2010 - 3:01pm

thanks alemama. I was telling a friend this morning that i was back to the doctor to push to figure out what is going on after 2 1/2 years of this and she was in shock i'd survived this long. I guess i just take itching as my unfortunate norm...it's the bigs flares that drive to bonkers!!!

doctor has referred me back to the vulval clinic, but still doesn't think the LS has returned. she says that other than the splits i have right now, my skin looks normal (though does think moles on perineum need checking more closely). she is thinking yeast on the skin + dermatitis. who knows! i just know i itch and am fed up. ordered my MSM sounds good for everything around this--yeast, skin issues, LS...hoping it will help. but feeling glad the clover balm is helping at least part of me...

anyway, we'll see...will keep drinking my clover and wait for my referral.

Christine

June 14, 2010 - 1:36pm

..I have been taking a second dose of DHA (algae oil) at night, which I believe helped to resolve this last flare. LS is a very dynamic disease and I feel like everything I eat, drink, and do contributes positively or negatively.

alemama

June 14, 2010 - 3:45pm

Hey Kiki, have you tried this yet? probably.
I've been putting it on some dermatitis I've been dealing with for about a year now and it's drying it out.

also zinc topically helps
calendula
comfrey-both topically

and all work well for a manner of things including yeast

louiseds

June 15, 2010 - 10:41pm

Hey Kiki

Thinking of you. Awful. Have you tried cold packs to alleviate inflammation and itching. Probably not as cold as you would use for a sprain, but cold is often good for things like insect stings and burns.

Louise

LSanita

June 20, 2010 - 5:34am

Hi,
I was a regular at the LS BXO site which is down and still out despite the reconstruction notice. I've been taking DIM for a while now off and on and as i am in the middle of a flare right now, despite taking it regularly again for a while it is no magic bullet.

I take it because it is researched to be useful for preventing cancerous growth. As LS is precancerous i take it for that reason. I did notice that it was quite good for weight loss, and as suggested here an oestrogen regulator. Even though i take it daily, like Christine i also eat a lot of cabbage but i don't think it is possible to eat enough to have a therapeutic effect.

We all need to make financial decisions about what health and nutrition options we follow, personally i'd rather spend on vitamin/supplements than going organic which as a country girl i think is a big marketing con job. My doctor also recommended i take Folinic Acid which i have stopped taking lately but will start again soon taking it in conjunction with the DIM.
best wishes

louiseds

June 20, 2010 - 7:43am

I assume this is not the same as folic acid?

Christine

June 20, 2010 - 9:48am

Hi LSAnita!

So glad you found us over here. Hope you've had time to read my paper (in the village library) and can see the science behind phytoestrogen.

But it's not the whole story re: recovering from LS.

One of our members, Alemama, casually suggested that maybe vinegar would be helpful, since it is known for helping general skin conditions. My antennae lit up immediately because with loss of estradiol comes loss of the vaginal glycogen that lactobacilli naturally culture. The vagina becomes very alkaline and this is a well-known reason for the vaginal changes of menopause. I just never believed it was enough to effect the entire vulva as well.

However, I tried diluting raw vinegar 1:1 with water, washing with cotton balls and then soaking one cotton ball and inserting overnight. There is no question it helped my LS - now for several days since I stopped using it due to general irritation.

Raw vinegar contains an acidic, beneficial organism that probably continues to multiply after an application. Frequent use on the vulva is probably not advisable.

The raging question is, why in the world have we (gynecology) not focused on culturing the vagina like we culture the guts when they are sick? I have not tried yogurt yet, because I have to get the ingredients to make a batch, but I am thinking that quality yogurt - ideally cultured with the same lactobacilli in your own environment alternated with raw vinegar might work in conjunction with the phytoestrogens in red clover and alfalfa to make a permanent change in LS symptoms. I'm so excited!! Btw, we stumbled upon a patch of wild alfalfa while walking with my herb class and my herb teacher said Europeans used to eat alfalfa as a major dietary food. We think of soy when we think of phytoestrogen because we have been long divorced from our own sources of these important foods. Soy makes my LS go crazy.

Anyway...we keep plugging along.

Welcome!

Christine

kiwigirl

June 21, 2010 - 2:33am

Sorry to butt in here ladies , just want to thank you for info on MSM.Sorry to hear of your flareups and itch it must be awful.A year of thrush, many years back was enough!
I need the MSM for my joints and haven't found it locally that I know of. The usual sources have switched to Glucosamine with MSN. But I am trying a Solgar herbal female complex to see if that will help female issues like dryness etc and protect the delicate senstive areas. Meantime its Bliss Balm and/or Kiwi Comfrey.
Il try and find MSM through the Solgar brand meantime.All the best and thanks to Christine, Louise and Kiki for the info. I am taking it easy this week as feel my body is overstressed and started back on wholwoman exercises today.
All the best ,keep smiling.
Kiwigirl

louiseds

June 21, 2010 - 5:00am

Hi Kiwigirl

What's the go on MSM and your joints?

kiki

June 21, 2010 - 1:25pm

HI All,
sorry, been a mad week, so i didn't stay up with this.
Alemama, thanks for the posts. I've used AC vinegar when i have a yeast infection, but by then they are so bad it just doens't turn the corner. But, after a prompt from Christine, I'm trying it 2x a week to see if i can keep my PH such that i don't get one in the first place. i can tolerate a bit of vinegar in the bath as well, but not as a major thing as it causes irritation. I'm also doing a mega herb treatment for yeast.
How do you do zinc topically?
i did calendula topically for a while, but stopped as it soothed but didn't solve it. but that was homeopathic tincture. i might try a cream. Last appt the doctor said she thought it was Eczema and should resolve with milder treatment. same processes i know, but sounds less scary and more treatable. but we shall see. referred back to the specialist. but, i'm doing the "medical route" for a month as i just need a break. daily dry skin shower gel for eczema and hydrocortisone. i don't like that route, but i'm nearly itch free and i really needed that break so that i can regather my strength to tackle this naturally.
i figure i'll do a few more weeks of this, through the midcycle flare next cycle, and then try ore natural stuff.
i'm also taking the MSM 2x a day, and carrying on with red clover. we'll see where we get to.
figure if something starts working then it'll be easier to wean off the western approach.
we'll get there!
Kiki

kiki

June 21, 2010 - 1:32pm

Hi LSAnita,
I've read on the other site and remember your posts. great to see you here. i read about DIM reading about cancer, when i really noticed some spots on my perineum that freaked me out. MD thinks they are just moles, but they are to be checked further by the specialist and then watched as i have a lot of moles. but the whole LS / Cancer thing is scary, especially when you read about VIN and that a sign is constant itch--how do you know if the itch is LS or something worse? i realise my lifestyle is generally protective of cancer (and i do believe in organic and that it helps keep us healthy...). But still it happens. so i want to support my body in protecting it, and it seems like a good way.

thanks to all for thoughts! really appreciate the contributions.

Kiki

PS Christine--did you try the vinegar again, so was it too irritating?

louiseds

June 21, 2010 - 8:59pm

Hey Kiki

Ever heard of zinc cream? Ya know, the stuff you put on your nose to stop sunburn? I think Amolin (a nappy rash cream) also has zinc as an ingredient, but it might be a bit too tacky for your delicate vulval tissues. You can also buy invisible zinc for using on your face, but goodness knows what they put in it to make it invisible!

L

meribelle

June 26, 2010 - 6:37am

I do not sell this product, so I feel I can brag on it... Nature's Sunshine has a wonderful MSM. You can buy it on line. good luck.

alemama

June 26, 2010 - 10:21pm

So glad you are almost itch free at the moment and gathering your resources.
My dermatitis is almost gone (it comes and goes though) after visiting the beach for a few days. I am planning to keep up the salt water soaks to see if it will go all the way away.
There is a product called veleda that I like for zink- it's a baby thing- I also like the burts bees diaper cream with zinc. worth a shot no?

kiwigirl

June 26, 2010 - 11:55pm

Hi Louise,

sorry late reply been away for a coupla days.Not sure what you wanted to know about MSN but here is my story....
For a few years I had been taking MSM in tablet form. It seemed to help my achey joints after long dancing sessions.I would take it every now and then.
Local health shop now stocks MSM, but in powder form only. I will be interested to see if it helps POP.As I never thought about that when taking it.Need to take more notice of what does and doesn't help lol.
Feeling very uncomfortable and bloated today ... been away 2 nights , though the break was good.
Cheers Kiwigirl :-)

kiki

June 27, 2010 - 1:33am

i tried a thick rash cream tat the beginning, but it didn't help. i'll try zinc cream. i just got Alba no petroleum jelly as so many people suggest petroleum jelly, as meant to hold in moisture. using the (horrid unnatural based) shower stuff really really helps as it is meant to lock in moisture, and the scaly skin patches are going. So i'd love to naturally swap that...

i definitely think sun and salt water would do wonders....too bad i live in a city far from the beach surrounded by people.

thinking i might try MSM cream as well, but i'll get there. bit at a time. the MSM apparently takes a month or two to kick in as you need to slowly build up and then make up for deficiencies. i've only been going for 10 days, and aren't at the full dosage yet, so i figure i'll know if there is any change by mid August... will keep updated!

debspups

July 6, 2010 - 12:09pm

Hi everyone,
Just read about the use of beta glucan in treatment of LS. Has anyone had any experience/results using beta glucan as part of their LS treatment?
thanks,
deb