another major leap

Submitted by Christine on July 11, 2010 - 3:22pm
Body: 

Hi Deb and Kiki and all,

Well, my quest for the holy grail of postmenopausal vaginal/vulva relief goes on. I love my red clover tea, as it reduced my symptoms by half. Half is not good enough, though, so I continue on.

I mentioned raw vinegar a while back because when I tried it there was a noticeable shift in my symptoms. Yet, it burned as much as it helped and clearly the net effect was negative. It made me remember something from my readings though, which for some reason I never fully comprehended until it kind of floated to the surface like a relief drawing.

The end result of estradiol decline is disappearance of glycogen, upon which natural lactobacilli from the environment feed. When the glycogen goes, the beneficial bacteria go. Other, anaerobic species colonize the vagina as pH changes from acidic to alkaline.

So I bought a quality brand of lactobacilli in capsule form and have been inserting one vaginally every day. There has been substantial improvement - but we’re not quite there.

In bread baking, it is a known fact that wild, beneficial yeast and lactobacilli have a symbiotic relationship. Wild yeast cannot utilize maltose, one of the carbohydrates found in flour. Lactobacilli require the maltose that the yeast doesn’t use. In turn, these bacteria produce an antibiotic that protects the culture from contamination by harmful bacteria. Therefore, the two organisms are mutually dependent and have developed an extremely stable symbiotic relationship since antiquity.

If lactobacilli cultivate the vagina, wild yeast must do the same! They go hand in hand. In fact, one has to wonder if one ever exists without the other.

I, like you, I suspect, have been so brainwashed regarding “yeast infections” that it has taken me this long to understand that the human vagina (and probably all mammalian vaginas) is cultured in a similar way as bread. Yeast is a normal part of vaginal health. It is the colonies that matter. I normally feed my sourdough a small amount of flour twice a day and it stays deliciously fragrant and good. Last week I forgot to feed it and after 24 hours it looked and smelled different. I decided to try to keep it going and another day later it was very putrid. I know Kiki will remember someone complaining about a particularly putrid menopausal smell (sorry - you guys get to remain anonymous!) The sourdough-gone-foul was the exact same smell!!!

When I realized all this a few weeks ago, I googled “vaginal probiotics” and indeed, someone has a lactobacillus on the market for vaginal use.

But as a bread baker, I know this isn’t enough and it has not returned my vagina to its pre-menopausal state. Yesterday I tried putting one lactobacillus capsule and one vitamin C tablet made with honey - for the yeast. Another gain in improvement, but the acid burned initially for a bit.

Just like wild-yeast sourdough bread, all we should need to set up the environment would be the sugar...maltose in the case of bread and glycogen in that of the vagina. I do not know much about glycogen, but will find out how to obtain it! If the substrate is there, the yeast and their mutually-dependent partner, lactobacillus, should just show up! That it how it is the world over...we live in this incredibly benign, friendly environment of microorganisms - until we become imbalanced.

This would also mean that anti-fungals used to treat “yeast infections” would be terribly upsetting to the system as a whole.

Just a few opinionated words about hormone substitution: The idea that hormones can be artificially “balanced” is an illusion. Progesterone turns into cortisol, as well as testosterone and estrogen. Testosterone turns into estrogen. Estrogen turns into dozens of metabolites, some of which are highly inflammatory. Testosterone is not a vitamin, but a risky drug that alters cholesterol metabolism by decreasing high density lipoproteins (“good” cholesterol”) and increasing low-density lipoproteins (“bad” cholesterol). If you have the genetic mutation for lipoprotein A, you stand an even greater chance of testosterone substitution having a significantly negative systemic effect - particularly in the area of cardiovascular disease. No practitioner on earth can orchestrate this infinitely complex symphony of hormone production. Yet, the notion of hormones as elixirs of health is deeply embedded in our medicalized culture.

Go Nature!!

:) Christine

Oceanblue

July 12, 2010 - 4:03am

This is all very fascinating news!
Thank you Christine!

louiseds

July 12, 2010 - 5:19am

It's so hard to know what the postmenopausal vagina and vulva are supposed to be like. I am guessing 'healthy, and a bit less juicy than the pre-menopausal'. I don't really think we are supposed to have a vagina and vulva that are like they were premenopause, but equally it is not supposed to disintegrate and cause the discomfort, pain and disfigurement that women with LS experience.

Actually, I think the state of the second half of the menstrual cycle or lactational amenorhea would be OK. It might need a bit of maintenance to get that state, but I don't think that should be a problem, when you look at the time and energy that we put into maintaining other parts of our body.

That still doesn't provide much joy for premenopausal women with LS though.

heavenly

July 12, 2010 - 7:51am

I keep hearing so much about Red Clover but not sure about me. I am 62 post men for about 7 years. POP struck about 7 months ago, you know, the intruder named"THE Bulge." Anyway, Would Red Clover help with the prolapse in general or what actually do you take the tea for. I know about cramps etc and salve. Can you tell me? Need all the help I can get.
Thanks Friend

louiseds

July 12, 2010 - 10:07am

Hi Heavenly

I didn't start drinking red clover tea for LS. I started drinking it, hoping it would help me to heal some really persistent dermatitis on the palms of my hands and fingers, that would not respond to anything else, kind of like psoriasis, but on my palms.

I had the same response, immediate and dramatic with probably 70-80% healing; reduction of affected area to about 50% of what it was, dramatic decrease in fissuring on the remaining bits, no more itching, reduction in redness and scaling, but not complete healing.

My skin has become less dry and rough and scaly all over. I am really pleased with it. My husband tells me my skin all over is quite different, much softer. However, I do seem to bruise more easily, which is logical, with the extra oestrogen.

The effect is dramatic enough for me to buy some Promensil tablets (also red clover) for when I cannot make tea morning and night, eg travelling. I think it also helps me to sleep better. If I have it late at night it works better. I don't like missing it.

I haven't noticed any effects on my prolapses though. I did think it made my vagina less dry, but I am not sure about that now. I still think that postmenopause women need more foreplay with sex. Lubrication and arousal simply take longer than they used to.

I just wish that DH understood that 30 minutes means 30 minutes, and not 30 seconds. Sigh.

heavenly

July 12, 2010 - 11:01am

OK Guess Red Clover is not something I need. Another question. Is it normal to have some problems with hemroides with a rectoclele? Just checking. Or could it be caused from too much wiping with toilet paper from maybe too much fiber?LOL With everyting going on down THERE just never know what will crop up next? Thanks Louise. Thank God for this site and the information it provides through all of you! Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Not having a very good day. I have been fighting depression a lot this week. This site as well as my faith is what is keeping me going. Some days just want to say take it all out and be done with it.! Then I have a good day and actually laugh.
Love ya lots I wish I really could express what this site has done for the betterment of my life as a whole!! Knowing you are not alone is half the battle!
Heavenly

bad_mirror

July 12, 2010 - 3:33pm

Hi Christine,
I'm just throwing this out there with out really researching it, but how about just plain honey with out the vitamin C as a source of glycogen? You are probably already miles ahead on this, but here is an an article on the chemistry of honey (no references, but maybe a good starting point): www.honey-health.com/honey-6.shtml. Here is a quote: "Levulose (one of the sugars in honey) is . . . the most valuable potential energy creator for the human system because it is an excellent glycogen producer." It probably has to be converted through digestive processes, but maybe topically it has some benefit, too? I have read of ancient Egyptian women inserting honey vaginally for everything from contraception to infection. Again, I'm probably not saying anything you don't already know or haven't already tried . . . anyway, best wishes on this quest!

Christine

July 12, 2010 - 5:38pm

I tried it a few days ago...but there must be a better way - lol. I love the quote and it gives me new hope. Thanks so much!! :)

louiseds

July 12, 2010 - 9:51pm

Hi Heavenly

I don't think hemmaroids always go with rectocele, but as I understand it hemmaroids are caused by the veins that return the blood to the heart get squashed and the blood can't flow properly, so it blows the walls of the vein out. I guess that is an injury to the connective tissue in the vein, which then gets stuck outside the outer sphincter, or between the outside and inside sphincters of the anus, because they are too big to slip back in again. Hemmaroids are usually caused by constipation, ie the pressure of unevacuated stool on the veins when straining to empty the bowel. I think what this is saying is that one doesn't cause the other, but they are both the result of the same sort of damage and can quite easily exist together. Fix the constipation and you'll possibly fix the hemmaroids too, or at least reduce the frequency of their symptoms, a bit like POP really. Hemmaroids do go away with the right conditions.

louiseds

July 12, 2010 - 9:55pm

What about filling a sea sponge with honey? Or a honey-soaked inter-labial pad with another stickon pad on your knickers.

Oh, perhaps not for outdoor use. It's summer over there, isn't it? Was it you, Christine, who said that there weren't any bees around? There might be an upside to that. ;-)

I wonder how much honey you have to use?

bad_mirror

July 13, 2010 - 12:55am

The Egyptians mixed it with crocodile dung for insertion (!!!). I would think only a small amount is needed. Dip a small square of unbleached muslin in honey and "squeegee" off the excess (like a paper mâché strip)?

louiseds

July 13, 2010 - 3:26am

Who was the lucky bunny that got to collect the crocodile dung?

heavenly

July 13, 2010 - 5:59am

Feeling not so good in the lower half, especially rectum. I think I am just becoming nurotic(spelling) Everythng odd just throws me into a tail spin. Fear will cripple ya if you let it. Feels bulgey. Sitting up straight on a hard suface probably doesn't help. I read too much on the net about things falling out and I become sure that is what is happening to me everytime a new pressure developes. At least everything is inside the vagina for the time being. Just do not want the knife. Thanks for being such a great moderator and support and sorry to bother you so much. I am learning and doing a lot of research on my own. Research everyday trying to find something new that might lift me up below. I do think this site has it all and no doubt could do no better. I have started on cell salts and now combining herbs. Let's see where that goes.? Love YA

heavenly

July 31, 2010 - 8:05am

Hi Christine,

Hope you are doing well. I have read on this site over and over trying to figure out the right combination of herbs to go with my other "things" I have put in place. I am 61 almost 62 with pop. What herbs would you recommend to strengthen, support , help rebuild the pelvic tissues, fascia and all and estrogen. I am thinking Red Clover, Red Rasberry, there have been dozens and dozens of herbs recommended on the web. Many recommended on this site. Can you make it simple for me then I can move on to something else. I am on cell salts. I am not lazy but researching this herb thing for weeks. Need to focus more on nauli and firebreathing and diet.
Thanks Christine or anyone who can help