hold it sister

Hello Gardengirl

I have been to Mary O'Dwyer's workshop. I have found her a beautiful, charismatic and caring lady, who shares her knowledge generously to the best of her ability. She has given us very safe strengthening exercises for the pelvic floor muscles and other exercises to help to ELIMINATE abdominal tensioning instead of pelvic floor engagement. I believe in pelvic floor exercises as these muscles are often weak and injured and need to be kept strong. However, these exercises will not lift a prolapse from below the level of the muscle. But, if a prolapse is not protruding I believe they can be incorporated in a strategy to reverse things. The pelvic floor muscles are part of the pelvic organ support network after all and how can they participate well if they are simply not up to the task? Well, this is my opinion and I'm standing by it :-)
I don't have much input on toilet positioning, other than closer to squatting the better - this actually what Mary told us too.

I must find some sleep so will be brief but my ears perked up on this thread. I have lots to add but the main difference (and almost only difference) between Mary's work and what the women here have found to be helpful is the postural norm. Mary has a neutral pelvis as the ideal, whereas WW does not.

Hi Gardengirl,

I am not familiar with Mary O'Dwyer, but just my two bob's worth - the description of how she suggests to go to the toilet is exactly what my physio advised me - and I have found it to be the BOMB!!! :-) Really, I was having awful problems a while back and since adopting this way of sitting to have a bowel movement, I have had no further problems relating to build up, and not eliminating my 'must have' twice a day. My bowel function is actually better than ever before (even pre POP) since doing this. My rectocele is so/so, but no further aggravation due to pooing problems!

Prior to this I had tried other ways of going, but nothing works for me like the method you have described. I am amazed, I go twice a day, every day, no effort involved. It prevents you even 'accidently' straining even a tiny bit, and keeps the pressure totally off the pelvic floor as you let your tummy bulge out. I am sounding rather enthused about this, but I keep thinking, I wish I had always done it like this. You mention for urination, not sure about that as I only have rectocele.

As for pelvic floor exercises, again, I find them helpful but my rectocele has never been visible externally, but have had awful symptoms of pain and hardly able to walk at first. I find kegels helpful, but 'always' do them in WW posture and only do them sitting down.

Just one persons experience and we are all different.

I haven’t read Mary O’Dwyer’s book, but we do have a little history with her, actually. Louise read her book when it was brand new and she was appalled, saying basically that she never opened it again because from her perspective it contained little or nothing of value for the prolapsed woman.

Louise wrote to her suggesting as much and that she might visit wholewoman.com. Mary did order and read Saving the Whole Woman and responded to Louise that the work was “brilliant”. The next thing we knew she had come out with a new book and apparently it is heavily influenced by the WW work! Hey, I think it’s great to be influencing others, but I also feel it is appropriate for an author to cite such influence in her references.

Mary is not the only one. Many practitioners are teaching posture now, which is great!
The world needs all the help it can get to steer it away from dark places, like the obstetrician’s blog I’ve been participating in over the last few hours. My G-d!!

As far as kegels go, if you sense your pelvic diaphragm muscles are weak, kegels in a sitting or standing position are certainly appropriate. My argument has always been that the WW posture forces the pelvic diaphragm muscles, and therefore the vaginal walls, closed. So if we live exercising the muscles in this way, what use is there for setting aside a “program” just for kegeling???

And the toileting instruction...be careful of the foot-on-stool position. That is a very old instruction that can be found in turn-of-the-century medical books. I used to do it that way until I could see that it places tremendous downward force on the vagina and rectum, instead of moving internal pressures through in the more natural, horizontal position of half-squatting.

Some people are very good at gathering the most popular information out there and spinning into something “original”. That’s okay to a point, but problems arise when their understanding is not particularly deep and they give instructions from a place of “popular” instead of intuitive knowing.

Christine

Hello Christine
I have to disagree with the opinion that Mary O'Dwyer's book is "heavily influenced" by your wonderful book. I believe you ought to read Hold It Sister before such conclusion is drawn. It is terrible to feel unfairly treated, especially if it is not needed so. I got different values out of both books and it makes me happy to have such valuable resources available to women. Thank you!

Thank you for your blessed support, Gardengirl!

Yes, we need all the support we can get. We will have PR in the near future. I just need to develop one more product, as Google traffic is extremely expensive and all we have been able to do all these years. One more product will put us over the top, but a full-on, beautiful and quality dvd like FAFP takes a tremendous amount of time and resources. I hoped the Village might help us accomplish that, as well as be a fun place for us, but thus far there has not been a lot of interest. I will keep trying to make it more and more interesting (we’re taking the camera to the Taos wool festival next month!), but we’ll just have to see how it goes with time.

You are right that we need to educate children and this has always been on our to-do list. However, if the work is not sanctioned by conventional society (i.e. the medical system) it will be impossible to get it into public school systems. The internet is probably going to be our way to change the world around prolapse, and we can already see that happening in so many ways.

As Dr. Eisler pointed out in my interview with her, a powerful example of how consciousness changes societal values and human rights is wife-beating. Forty years ago it was common - even expected - that men would rough up their wives once in a while (or often, in many cases). Today in the US spousal abuse is punishable by law. Yes! However, it took a women’s movement to make it so.

The gigantic problem with WW change is that it is truly a David and Goliath battle. We all have seen how cruel and ignorant the system is in terms of changing their view. Even my extremely fearless husband has recently told me to “keep your head down” in terms of fighting with these people head-on. They are ignorant and ruthless, and have some of the wealthiest and most powerful corporations behind them. Every day I see promotional “studies” on the benefits of transvaginal mesh and prolapse surgery.

It is women we must educate and I’m doing all I can in that regard. There is much more to be done and it Will get accomplished. WW is much bigger than me at this point and if I dropped off the planet tomorrow there is no way this information is going to disappear.

Lastly, I need to get out of my own way. I have no doubt that I have described correctly the female pelvic organ support system. It truly is not about the pelvic floor, but only positioning the pelvic floor so it can do what it evolved in human beings to do. Gynecology and PT have a completely and absolutely wrong view. However, my extreme emotional need to be right, which I know comes from past family issues, interferes with my ability to influence effectively. As fate would have it, our wise and calm moderators and members balance the scales.

Thank you!

Christine

Thank you, KitKat! I spoke too soon. I have no idea what's in Mary's book except what is listed in the content page on her website. Even if Mary's book is all about the correct pelvic organ support system (POSS), I should be thrilled! I have apologized to Louise for dragging her into the mix, for which she was, as usual, gracious about.

This whole issue of what (and whom) is right is a difficult one for me to navigate through.

If there is only one POSS, which I believe there is, just like there is only one lung system and one heart system that do not vary appreciably between people, is there not only one correct way to describe it - but also support it through posture and exercise? There could be infinite ways to exercise it, but only one way to properly align it.

When I hear of people teaching posture that tucks the tailbone, puts most of the weight on the heels, etc., I understand the anatomical changes that occur from what I believe to be natural and therefore, right. So I have to pipe-up, and it is usually in a strong and righteous way, which gets me into trouble because cooperation is deeply ingrained in female communication and sense of justice (read Carol Gilligan).

Mary is a PT and so is Tasha the PT, who paid us a visit in the past, but refused to dialogue with us about her position. These people are heavily invested in the PT model, which traditionally was all about “core” dynamics and exercising the pelvic floor. That they are both teaching posture-as-primary is great, but neither of them describes the true anatomy of the POSS. Therefore, their work is incongruent, even if it helps some percentage of women. You can have a ton of education and even call yourself a “biomechanical engineer” and still be wrong about the true dynamics of the pelvis, because the educational system itself is wrong.

Here is a little experiment to try to help you understand more about posture vs kegels:

Sit in right-angle posture on any hard surface that is chair-height. Try to make the most extreme lumbar curvature you possibly can, not worrying about the upper body. You will see that in this position you cannot contract your pelvic floor muscles because the “genital hiatus”, or opening in the pf muscles, is already being drawn strongly closed. When the sacrum strongly “nutates” (in the book), the pelvic floor and vaginal walls close. There is a continuum from a loose and open genital hiatus (when sitting with a C-shaped spine), to WW posture where you can kegel just a tiny bit (it is felt in the front around the urethra), to extreme exaggeration of the lumbar curve where the walls are slammed shut and you cannot kegel at all.

This shows us that it is our natural anatomy as we move through space that does the work of closing the genital hiatus. Not only is there no sense in kegeling on your back, but such exercise stretches fascial structures in the wrong direction - toward open vaginal walls - the reason you can also suck air into your vagina in this way. Kegeling is a wrong concept and really should be abandoned in favor of posture that is not only closing the walls, but aligning them too.

Somewhere along the way, either chronically, acutely, or through genetics, we have lost that strong closure that makes prolapse and incontinence impossible. Coming back to the anatomical structure that is the POSS is the only thing that makes sense. It is not 100% for most women - therefore, we get into the realm of acceptance and the reality of the surgical “solution”.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about these things.

Christine

There are no such thing as arbitrary muscles. To say that kegels or pelvic floor exercises is a waste of time would not be correct. Muscles are not in the body without purpose. They may not be the end all be all but along with good posture improvements can be made. Not only with prolapses but with continence problems because sphincters are impacted by muscular contraction. I think Extreme lordosis can be detrimental to the lumbar spine and the SI joint but a neutral position allows for tightening of the pelvic floor without undo pressure on the joints in the low back.
I think we all take what we can from anyone offering an opinion and figure out what works best for us. Tasha Mulligan the PT has a great web site called Hab-it.com She is a highly trained EXPERT on pelvic floor prolapse and a really great resource. different things work for different people even with similar problems...we should respect this and do what is best for our own bodies.

Dear Christine

Lovely thread!

Forgive all the quotes from previous posts ...

You say: "Lastly, I need to get out of my own way ... my extreme emotional need to be right ... interferes with my ability to influence effectively."

Then you say about Tasha (Hab-it.com): " ... but (she) refused to dialogue with us about her position." You have to admit, it is not easy debating with anyone when they admit to always needing to be right.

Since reading at WW I have found other web sites/PT's who use the neutral spine position, which I personally find not stressful at all on my SIJ, but who also accentuate a slight lifting of the tail-bone. I am extremely happy with this posture and agree with BSMrunner that: "I think we all take what we can from anyone offering an opinion and figure out what works best for us."

I have recently been reading the posts on a lovely blog PelvicHealthPlus. This site has helped me tremendously with my posture and the exercises I do from there combined with the exercises Tasha recommends, have really made a difference to my prolapse - indeed what prolapse?!

I have Mary O'Dwyers book "My Pelvic Flaw", published in 2007, which I found to be very straight forward and informative and got me on the path to re-examining how I walk and exercise.

I find that there are books that become too emotional about a topic which can have the opposite effect of that which they set out to do, and yours, I feel, is one of them Christine. It does have some wonderful information, but there are heavy overtones which can be very off-putting. To each their own however.

On the subject of your book. I followed the instructions in YOUR book, Saving the Whole Woman, on toileting - using the foot-on-stool technique - yours is definitely NOT a 'turn-of-the-century medical book'. Am I correct when I say you have changed your idea on this technique and that following Louise's position would be better?

L'chaim!

I find it amazingly strange that a few people have come into this thread with the idea of claiming they have the freedom to cherry pick what methods they will use for their body's betterment as if Christine or anyone else on this site have ever suggested they should not.

I can only admire Christine for once again having the patience to put forward the anatomical puzzle that these other writers in their anatomical descriptions and posture and exercise recommendations create for her: a puzzle that she has consistently highlighted.

What I particularly take objection to is the personal attacks on Christine and not on her arguments. To use her recognition of her need to be right as something with which to goad and mock her shows such unselfawareness, to be almost laughable . Show me someone who does not need to be right, and you would have to show me someone who was not human.

As to referring to Christine's book as too emotional, it was never meant to be otherwise than emotional. The use of the degree 'too' is a personal opinion and smacks of projection.

As to your arguments they may be valid, but why not argue them? You lost my interest when you played the woman and failed to answer her arguments.

Hey, it’s okay. Believe me, I’m used to being attacked for my work, and I am sorry I have to point out practices I believe to be misguided. Just a couple of points:

Your SIJs are not under less pressure with a “neutral” spine. You believe that because that’s what you have been told, but it is not the scientific reality. A full lumbar lordosis (curvature) is what gives the SIJ ligaments greatest stability under least pressure. This is common orthopedic knowledge at this point. You obtain a fully expanded lumbar curve - which certainly is different from woman to woman - by relaxing your lower belly and raising your chest to full lung capacity, while keeping your shoulders down and upper back flat and broad.

My point about kegels is those muscles most certainly are being exercised all the time in WW posture. There is no reason to do series of these “exercises” in any position other than with full lumbar curvature, but if that is what you want to do, whatever. Just understand that it has been the experience of many women that too many kegels in supine position has worsened their prolapse symptoms. This would not be the case if supine kegels stretched pelvic fascia along anatomically beneficial planes.

Christine

Thank you Christine for the information regarding the SIJ. I was perhaps over accentuating the lordotic curve which was how my SIJs were thrown out of kilter in the first place.

@Fab. Christine was the one who mentioned her need to be right in the first place. I merely highlighted this in order to point to a reason why Tasha Mulligan did not come back to plead her case. I am sorry if you feel I was attacking Christine.

I must, according to your definition of the word, not be human - I have never felt the need to be right as I value the opinions of those with whom I interact far too much.

As for projecting, I don't think so. Again, I am grateful that the world is made up of so many different people with diverse thoughts. Imagine how sad and dull it would be if the whole world was gray and inhabited by gray people.

Forums and blogs are there, I think, to be able to give consideration to differing ideas on a public platform. I am aware, and I hope I will not overstep the line, that this forum is Christine's domain, but after reading Christine's book, her blog and numerous posts, I think she will be able to withstand my feeble challenges.

Can we perhaps put our emotions and differences aside and continue to discuss Mary O'Dwyer and exercises and posture with the aim to finding alternative methods to keep our prolapses under control?

I just thought I would add the following:

I have learned a great deal from this site along with hab-it sites (tasha) along with other forums and PT's sites. I have simply combined the information appropriately for what works for me.

If I would not have found this site when I did I would have probably had a some kind of surgical procedure done long before I would ever need to.

If I did not find kegel8 sites I would probably still have muscles that were lax and non functioning.

If I had not found hab-its site I would still have cramps in my lower back and a weird ache happening that was resulting in exaggerating the lumbar curve to far, I would also have very weak core strength and would have lost the understanding there are some muscles in my stomach I can work, I just must make sure I am exercising the correct ones that do not cause further stress and aggravation on my prolapse.

If I had not found certain doctors sites I would have thought the only surgical fix for a uterine prolapse was a hyst.

There are all kinds of sites out there with all sorts of info, thank-god because we are each unique sometimes we all need the various techniques in info.

I do not know a lot, But I do know there is not one source or person that has all the answers for any particular subject. Thank-God for having so many minds in the field

Thank God Doctors and PT and Natural Paths... are all learning new thing everyday and listening to woman saying what you have done has not worked.

Thank-god Doctors finally give PT a chance now. It used to be they would only give surgery as an option. Doctors are changing and the educational system is changing.

Thank God for people like Sherrie Palm who is trying to at least educate woman about prolapse and bring it into the light.

I am so grateful to all of the information that I have that helps me to access and listen to my inner voice to make an educated decision on the best treatments for me.

kathy2124

This is why I called this “difficult territory”, because there really is no compromise. This has nothing to do with emotions or opinions, but with upholding what I know to be anatomical fact. The problem is, no matter how hard I try to explain the simple anatomical problem, some people still don’t understand. I cannot help how others are influenced, but can only trust that everyone is getting what they need and deserve. That is the way of the world. These forums are really for discussing just about anything, but neither the moderators nor myself are going to sit still when WW postural principles are compromised by conventional views. As you state, there are other places for that.

Christine

Dear PiaMom + Kathy2124

I am so glad you agree there are a lot of valuable ideas out there and that forums or blogs are there to give consideration to differing ideas on a public platform, but there is a difference between discussing ideas, playing the woman and creating strawwomen.

By all means let's discuss the ideas

Discussing Mary O'Dwyer's book, I believe.

(breathe in, now breathe out calmly)

I think My Pelvic Flaw/Floor (which I understand to be the first and Australian edition, while Hold It Sister is the new edition for a more international market) is quite a good book. It is very comprehensive and it does delve quite deeply into the different ways we can use all the abdominal and pelvic muscles, either correctly or incorrectly. It does not just describe the mechanics of kegelling. She does describe the role of good posture in pelvic health. It is very similar to WW posture. I find her book quite engaging and conversational in style, which makes it a very friendly book to read. I almost expected to find a capuccino voucher inside the front cover.;-)

I do think MPF comes from the 'same branch of the tree' as Saving the Whole Woman, and it was gratifying to read many passages that are congruent with Christine's thinking, whereas most of the other resources I have seen have not expressed these. It looks to me as if Mary has been influenced quite a bit by Christine's work, which was documented in a book and this website long before MPF was published first, but it is *possible* that they have both come to similar thinking by different routes.

*However ...*

The illustrations are so simplistic that I would describe them as unhelpful, because they are not well-enough defined, so they give a very inaccurate picture of relative positions of the different parts of the pelvis, though they support Mary's 'pelvic flaw' model very well indeed. Unfortunately, in my opinion, aesthetically pleasing brush strokes have gotten in the way of reality. The illustrations demonstrate that she does not understand the significance of the postural advice she gives earlier in the book. I have to say that to try and imitate the postures illustrated in some of them would be impossible. I could not hold the position with my coccyx so low and my pubic symphysis so high in front while standing. I suspect that, like almost all the anatomical illustrations we see, they are images of supine cadavers, redrawn as standing, which tells lies about how the pelvic contents and structures arrange themselves when the woman is upright and alive.

I simply do not believe that the female body is like Mary draws it. This posture that she illustrates underpins her whole book. As a physiotherapist trained in physical anatomy she must be able to see with her eyes and feel with her hands that women cannot stand like that, and that women do not stand like that out of choice. It would be too uncomfortable. If only she would look at an x-ray of a standing woman's pelvis, like chiropractors use, she would see that the bones are in quite different places, even with poor posture. The positions of the bones and the muscle walls that are slung between them have profound implications for what holds the pelvic organs up.

Perhaps you think I am too hung up on the illustrations, though most of the written material looks really good. Sorry, but we cannot just look inside our own bodies for a prac session. Accurate illustrations are absolutely essential in a book such as this. Illustrations are the only way we can visualise what she is saying. These pelvic floor illustrations are grossly misleading. They are the one reason why I have not given my copy of the book to my daughter, or anybody else. I only keep it for my own information (from the text), and as an example of poor illustration that detracts from an otherwise good book.

I just find it really sad that she cannot see the role that a radically different posture from her illustrations plays in continence and management of prolapse. If she could only make that one 30 degree adjustment in her visualisation of the female pelvis and how it works, I think a light bulb would illuminate, and she would see how close she is to having a *really* sound model.

It would be akin to Copernicus seeing that the Earth moves around the sun, instead of vice versa, and we know what effect that had on astronomy and other sciences.

I am just bursting with frustration about this! I can only put it down to Mary O'Dwyer wearing professional blinkers and thinking the only road is the one straight in front of her. Her one fundamental mistake is so blindingly obvious to me, but I am not shackled by a lifetime of prescribed studies in anatomy and physiotherapy. I am simply making sense of the body God gave me, and all of us, by way of observation of my own body, a model skeleton and a couple of anatomy books, aided also by Saving the Whole Woman. I was on a quest to understand my musculo-skeletal anatomy long before I found the Wholewoman website!

On the other hand I might be completely off my rocker, and have completely imagined the improvement that WW methods have made to my POPs because of Christine's 'radical' ('wrong') pelvic model. (A note of irony here)

Mary writes with great depth of knowledge, compassion and down to earth good advice. She unmasks the shame and shows all ages of women on the cover, all of whom are smiling and happy. If only she could make that adjustment in optimum posture it would make it so much easier for her clients to recover their abililty to exercise, remain continent and get their lives back. Instead, they will be slaving away, trying to make floppy muscles tight, and trying to make a thin, bouncy back door into a thick, relatively-rigid, horizontal floor. It will be an ongoing battle for them.

I call it 'flawed' thinking. And it is such a waste.

Louise

ps As for toileting posture, toilet pans (if that is where we do our poos and wees) are all very different. In my experience Australian pans are much higher than those in the USA. Can't remember about Europe and UK. Maybe everyone in the NE corner of USA, where we visited, are all shortarses? Whatever. Hooman beenz is all different heights and proportions too, from toddlers to grownups.

This tells me that there can be *no* blanket advice for sitting on the toilet. It is not about the devices you use. It is about getting your body and guts into the optimum position for emptying right out. If you need a footstool, use a foot stool. If you need to squat on the pan, then squat on the pan. If 'straddle-and-hover' works, then straddle and hover. Positioning is about what is happening on the inside. It is not about the furniture. :-)

I think it depends on how it works for you, but *if* you are going to kegel, do it in a way that will be most effective and not detrimental.

kegels do have a place in the management of stress incontinence, which oftentimes accompanies prolapse. I dont' think it will cure incontinence, but doing a kegel while sneezing will increase the pressure from below the urethra to prevent leakage when the pressure is increased from above.

Gmom, that sneezing technique only seems to work for me if most of the urethra is above the pelvic floor before I kegel, then sneeze. If my bladder is low most of the urethra will be low too. In that case, a kegel while sneezing is likely to simply squeeze the bladder, rather than the urethra, and not help to that little dribble.

Louise

I guess as with anything, it all depends on your specific anatomy/prolapse type. if its just the bladder thats low and the angle between bladder/urethra is no longer effective, the kegel *should* help.
the kegel/sneeze thing worked for me during my 9th month with my first. I had the flu and terrible coughing that would lead to dribbling if I didn't kegel first.
now I have no stress incontinence so its a nonissue.

...or...stick your bum Way out - it works!

The kegel thing amazes me. I pull up periodically when I'm sitting upright or bending over to pick something up. It just goes along with the posture. However, our mindset is such that we think set times of structured kegel activity is what will turn prolapse around. It's not. Gravity sitting on the organs while the spine is pushing them forward is what creates and stabilizes pelvic organ support.

Does the pelvic wall contract automatically when intraabdominal pressure is raised sharply and suddenly? I say yes, but I also believe we have to bring conscious awareness to common postural issues that were once natural. So, having the awareness of kegeling is good when sneezing, etc., and especially so when the body is in a supportive shape.

so you are asking: Hey Alemama, do you notice that your pelvic walls automatically contract when you run, jump, lift something heavy, sneeze etc.?

and does this happen for everyone?

and I say, here is a great place for pelvic floor pt and all it's measurements and tools.
That would make an amazing case study for a medical journal. I can see the abstract now...1000 women sampled. 600 with diagnosed pelvic floor prolapse. 200 with stress incontinence. 200 with no known symptoms of pelvic floor prolapse. 700 multipara etc etc etc

ok but for me- yes. I notice a strong involuntary contraction when I jump- run- or pick up a big ol kiddo. I also have noticed sometimes that when I am drinking and swallow it happens- like somehow the signals get crossed or something weird. And of course I voluntarily and sometimes involuntarily contract those muscles during intercourse.
But my prolapse is most of the time well above my pubic bone.
I bet that there are many factors that can influence this type of contraction- things like nerve damage, prolapse severity, fibroids, back injury, over all strength of the pelvic floor muscles, etc...

interesting stuff these bodies we live in.

Good observation, and I agree about the research.

I had a long and heated (mostly because I get very excited when I talk about this work) discussion this morning with one of the therapists at an Egoscue Method clinic back east. We share a common client and he was calling to try to understand the WW paradigm of anatomy and posture.

We were on the same page that the pubic bones come together underneath the body like straps of a saddle, however, he offered poor excuses when I asked, “Why, then, are the pelvic illustrations in Egoscue’s books rotated backward almost 90 degrees?” When I boldly announced that there cannot possibly be significant forward/backward rotation of the ilia (hipbones) he exclaimed, “Are you telling me there is no anterior/posterior rotation of the pelvis when you squat down or bend over?...I know exactly what happens when this muscle connected to that bone connected to that tendon pulls the ilia forward and back!”

Said I, “Are you telling me that the ilia move independently of the pubic bones?...because when standing, squatting and forward-bending, the pubic bones do not move a millimeter!” Silence. I continued, “Look, this is self-evident! I have no way of knowing exactly how the ilia move, as I am not the one with the fancy instrumentation, but my guess is, they must move primarily medially and laterally to lock and unlock the sacrum. The pelvis is *already* rotated all the way forward, just like in quadrupeds. We can get it to move ever so slightly more ‘forward’ by putting our weight on our heels and creating unnatural swayback...there is no pelvic floor, nor a ‘hole’ in the bottom of a soft-tissue hammock...yada-yada-yada”

He put me on speaker phone about half way through our conversation and I pictured them huddling around the phone and rolling their eyes. These people, like everyone else on the planet, teach a “neutral pelvis” and for the life of me I cannot imagine how they let science and technology get in the way of the most obvious and profound anatomical truths!!

The sacroiliac joints are the most studied joints in the human body, yet they remain the most mysterious. They are deeply buried between bone and impossible (?) to image in the living, moving body. It has always been assumed that the large hipbones move forward and back, and too much anterior or posterior “tilt” brings us out of the “neutral” range.

The Whole Woman paradigm asserts that the pelvis is *already* tilted all the way forward. It is the sacrum, hinging on the hipbones, that moves forward and back (up and down, really). The ilia must move toward the middle when the sacrum rocks forward (nutates), and away from the middle when the sacrum rocks back. If they moved forward, the pubic bones would move toward the back and vice-versa, because this is one solid bone on either side of the sacrum.

From this paradigm, a full lumbar lordosis (curve) *is* the neutral position. Pulling the ilia toward the thighs from weight-on-heels results in spinal hyperextension, while tucking the tailbone under - even the slightest bit - results in spinal flexion.

This is the anatomical paradigm shift that will change everything: pelvic “floor” surgery, exercise systems, and human birth. I know it's alot for most women to "grok", but the sooner they make the connection, the sooner they will realize that conventional medicine has nothing to offer women with prolapse.

Christine

...can mean different things.

A full squat with bottom near floor and legs parallel does rotate the entire pelvis posteriorly.

Bending over or squatting down into a deep, exteriorly rotated 2nd position does not tilt the hipbones forward or back. They are already positioned all the way forward.

will re read that one christine
just posted on another thread the opposite, but what I thought was accurate.