Kegals

Submitted by Ronnie on March 16, 2011 - 1:14pm
Body: 

I have so much going on in my head that I don't know where to begin. About two weeks ago, I discovered that I had a bulge or two in my vagina. After seeing my gyno, I was told that I have a early stage cyctocele and rectocele. She suggested I do nothing at this point, or she could fit me with a pessary. This terrified me as I am 55 years old and postmenopausal (due to chemo drugs from breast cancer 2 years ago). Since chemo had thrown me into menopause, I have felt that my body could not be as healthy (organs and tissues) due to the now lack of the usual hormones. I could tell that the vagina had become thinner as well. Wanting to help myself in everyway that I could, I began to research. I found the Whole Woman site and ordered the bundle. I also found the Kegalmaster and ordered it. I have watched the dvd and started to read Christine's book and find them very helpful and informative. (have only done her exercises one time so far). The information stating that kegals don't help confuses me. Wouldn't these exercises help with the tissues to make them a little plumper like they used to be, rather than thinning and more chance of infection? It seems it would make sex more comfortable as well. Thank you for your help.

bad_mirror

March 16, 2011 - 9:36pm

Hi Ronnie,
Check out the article here in the Village Library titled "Why kegels don't work." (click on the library link, then click the articles link in the left-hand list). This explains it far better than I could here. The simplified answer is that kegels pull the vagina into a plane that can harm the integrity of pelvic organ support. They were developed by a man, based on a faulty perception of anatomy. Some women find a few kegels a day beneficial in some way, but many report that too many kegels worsen their situation. Christine is not the only practitioner who debunks the kegel myth -- I am seeing more and more practitioners warn against them, regardless of their other views on therapies for POP. I do one or two kegels a day, mostly out of superstition, but that's it.

alemama

March 16, 2011 - 10:19pm

sure doing kegals will bring blood to your vulva and plump up tissues- but plump tissues do not make a prolapse go away or stabilize it and can even make a prolapse more pronounced.
Kegals during sex are a good trick for a fun time- and having a strong 'grip' is usually a good thing.
Kegals to keep from peeing when you sneeze or lift something heavy are also great. In fact your body will automatically contract these muscles when you are upright and under stress. So the idea is that you probably get enough 'exercise' of these muscles during natural ambulation and other activities. Add sex in there and you have fulfilled your 'exercise' need for those particular muscles.
Great news is that you get to live in your body. You get to feel all the sensations and you can decide if they are alright for you or not.
Not sure what to think about thinning tissues etc- but I have recently done an extensive amount of reading about tissue health and found some really interesting ideas to try, from diet and supplements (avocados, coconut oil- good fats and vitamin C) to topical applications of things (slippery elm, evening primrose oil, seaweed) to help with tissue integrity. You might like to google a bit about that stuff.
Congratulations on making it through breast cancer and don't be afraid to try some pessaries. You might like them.....or not. Just be your own advocate and do not let anyone shove things inside you that make you hurt more and do not bear down to get them out!

Ronnie

March 17, 2011 - 10:41am

I have not had incontinence at this point. Before getting the diagnosis of prolapse, I was concerned about tissue health. I considered the kegels as a help for that matter. It makes sense to me the they would not help with a prolapse and so did not want to do anything that would make the other worse. The ideas for topical applications sounds good (I've heard that vitamin E is good?) I will continue to research more about it. The sea sponge as a pessary sounds like it may be a good option. If you've heard of anything negative I should know about that, please let me know.

Ronnie

March 17, 2011 - 10:53am

I read the article at the Village Library, and it was helpful. I was searching for ways to improve tissue health before I was diagnosed with prolapse. That is when I considered kegels. I do not want to do anything that would make the prolapse worse, and it makes sense that they would not help as far as the prolapse is concerned. I'm not finished with Christines book, but find the posture and exercises encouraging.

louiseds

March 19, 2011 - 6:16am

Hi Ronnie

Go to Christine's Cottage Kitchen and check out the video about making Red Clover Balm. Ah yes, before that you will need to read an article in the Library by Christine called A Natural Remedy for Lichen Sclerosus.

I am not saying that you have LS, but I have now used Red Clover Balm to sort out my vagina and vulva after a recent sensitive period when sex became quite painful. I am post-menopause. It is also good for skin complaints. Red Clover is very weakly oestrogenic which might not go with your breast cancer history, but I think you will see the reasoning for suggesting it when you read the article. There are estrogens and estrogens, you see.

If you are not comfortable with red clover then the base of the balm by itself might be quite helpful, or you could try Replens, a vaginal moisturiser.

Penetrative sex is very good for repositioning prolapsed organs as well, and slow, low-friction sexual arousal is the best thing ever for dry vagina therapy!

Come back and discuss it further.

Louise

Ronnie

March 24, 2011 - 4:20pm

Hi Louise

Thanks for your suggestion. I read the article by Christine on A Natural Remedy for Lichen Sclerosus. I'm still not sure what to do. I will be seeing the doc who did my lumpectomy in April for my 1 year check up. I think I will ask his opinion. It sounds as though this balm is comforting and used to restore tissue health and also preventatively for LS. So it makes sense that it would help someone for general use just to help with tissue health.

At this time I don't feel that my gyno said anything to help me and even suggested that my prolapse was not a big deal and when it got worse some day, then something could be done. She suggested kegals and cones. I'm so thankful for this site so I don't feel alone and I have found so much useful information.

fifi

March 25, 2011 - 6:55pm

Louise, I was interested about your remark on sex being good for a prolapse I wonder were you got this information? I asked my Physio about sex and she said you can do it, it wont harm you but it wont do you any good so I found this confusing I wonder does it mention this in the DVD Iv ordered?.

alemama

March 25, 2011 - 11:22pm

fifi, search the words sex and louise together and you will find a great amount of independent research has gone into that statement :)
and then of course there is the experiments we've all tried and reported back about-
and it seems to be a general consensus around here that sex often helps reposition things, and perhaps even lifts the uterus a bit for a time.
Scientifically, sex will bring extra circulation to the area, extra lubrication to the area and if your partner is a man, ejaculate contains some pretty good doses of vitamins- delivered directly to the area. There is also the natural kegel that occurs with sex- which if you believe what most doctors have to say on the matter- is helpful for prolapse.
Recently a woman posted here about being in a constant state of arousal and how much better her prolapse was for it. I'd sure be interested to try- but it isn't the season on my life right now to be in that state constantly.
Wouldn't it be fun if Drs prescribed orgasms for treatment of prolapse?
but hey, give it a try- more than one way- and see how it goes for you. Each body has it's own mind :) never hurt to try that for sure.

louiseds

March 26, 2011 - 2:03am

If that is what the physio lady said, I don't think she has pelvic organ prolapse, or else she is celibate!

It is personal experience of both myself and other Members. No professional research here. Just wisdom from those who have been there. Put 'sex' 'good for prolapse' into the Search box and you can read the testimonials yourself. :-)

It won't make the prolapses any worse, but it will reposition your organs very effectively. It won't keep your organs in place all day unless you are at it all day. It can be very useful when you have a few days when you just don't feel quite right and nothing you do in the way of exercise will get you back to feeling relatively POP-free.

It is like re-setting your scales. If you have plenty of (conservative) penetrative sex your body automatically has lots of opportunities to get the configuration of your pelvic organs back to normal, ie the vagina is frequently lengthened, which pulls the bladder and uterus in and forward, and stretches out the rectum, because they are tethered to each other and to the vagina by the remaining fascial connections.

Wholewoman is about managing an existing condition. It *is* about minimising symptoms without permanently changing the body.

:-) Louise

ps I am not talking about kinky, rough sex. I am talking about deliberately positive positioning, done gently, with the woman calling the tune.

cararosesmum

March 27, 2011 - 7:33am

your comment reminded me of something I learnt recently- that dildos were invented by the Victorians for doctors to masturbate their female patients to treat 'female hysteria.' Maybe they'll make a comeback in the treatment of prolapse? In the right hands , of course!

louiseds

March 27, 2011 - 11:27am

I have words in my head about this, Cararosesmum, but they are words even I would not dare to put into print!

Ronnie

April 19, 2011 - 11:34am

I have now read the ww book and keep returning to it to understand more. I read the LS article you suggested and decided the salve may help me. I was miserable last week with itching and burning and could not sleep for a couple of nights. It was not urinary tract, I know how that feels. My entire underside was inflamed. I bought the ingredients and made the red clover salve by watching the video. I drank Red Clover tea and used the salve every time I urinated, and used a probiotic capsule every other night in case it was yeast. It felt soothing but did not really get better for about 3 days. Monday was the doc appt. (1st one year mammogram after finishing treatments, 3 years out now). They said everything looks good. That is great news, but felt very deflated after talking to my doc. I ask him about the red clover tea and the salve and he said "anything with an estrogen effect, do not use!" I understand that in his position he cannot endorse it. He said he gets this questions all the time from survivors who want to take some form of something to help with tissue health, itching, and dryness. I mentioned the prolapse and my need for helping it and trying to be comfortable. He only suggests moisturizers like replens, which does not help itching and burning! I'm so disappointed because I felt that I had made progress on my own without antibiotics or other meds. I'm not sure that I have a yeast infection so much as itching because of my hormones not being balanced (as I read in Christines article). My breast cancer was estrogen negative and I of course do not want to go through that again, but feel that I must be on the right track because I'm feeling better. Using a small amount of salve and having a cup or two of red clover tea each day does not sound like much to me. Is there any discussion or statistics on others who are breast cancer survivors and yet use the red clover?

Christine

April 19, 2011 - 3:24pm

Hi Ronnie,

This is one of those raging impasses between Western and alternative medicines. Your doctor’s view is that a phytoestrogen will add more estrogen to the system (even though this is not what science reveals). What I tried to convey in the paper is just the opposite - that a phytoestrogen such as red clover occupies beta-receptors that might otherwise be occupied by more toxic estrogen metabolites.

I certainly cannot tell you not to take your doctor’s advice. No doubt there are studies in this important and epidemic area of women's health!

Hopefully, you will still be allowed to use the probiotic vaginally and a simple barrier salve (any good salve) on your vulva.

Wishing you well,

Christine

louiseds

April 19, 2011 - 6:10pm

Ronnie, the question you ask is important, but you will probably only find a small number of breast cancer survivors here. A Surviving Breast Cancer Forum might put you in touch with users of red clover. After all, it is sold in health food shops for an alternative cancer treatment, and as a cancer preventative, specifically for the reasons that Christine outlines in her article. It occupies the beta oestrogen receptors so that the (breast) cancer-causing.

When you say your cancer was not oestrogen dependent do you mean that it was the sort of cancer that does not grow because of high oestrogen levels?

Louise

Ronnie

April 19, 2011 - 6:36pm

Louise, yes the breast cancer type I had is called "triple negative". Basically, that means there is no form of preventative I could use after my treatments had ended. Many of my friends take tamoxifen as a preventative for up to five years after completing treatment. This is suppose to reduce their chance of reoccurance because their tumor was fueled by estrogen, mine was not. After reading Christine's article, I felt that the red clover may be helpful for me. I can tell already that it has helped.

Ronnie

April 19, 2011 - 6:54pm

Christine, I did take away from reading your article that red clover may be very helpful for me. The comment the doctor made was "anything that has an estrogen affect" I should not use, even though I mentioned red clover. So I don't know that he even understands the difference only that he lumps everything into the same category as having an "estrogen affect." Your article and book has given me great peace of mind and the tea and salve has helped me in a few short days. I think using it in moderation feels like the right thing for me. I also look forward to your exercise video thats coming out soon. Thank you so much. :)

csf

April 21, 2011 - 12:41pm

Hi, Ronnie!

Just thought I'd share with you an article I just saw about Triple Negative.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/03/new-hope-for-the-cure/?u+t...