Feeling discouraged

Hi Tintagel
Just yesterday I posted a query regarding walking and rectocele - perhaps you could read it if you haven't already. As yet no-one has answered. I'm the same age as you, with small cytocele which I don't notice at all, and large rectocele bulge which does just the same as your prolapse: moves back in place when on all fours and firebreathing but just drops back down to introitus throughout the day when I'm doing the usual household stuff, or walking. Sometimes my mood is good, I'm not tired and just get on with life - at other times it really is discouraging. Like you, I'm practicing the posture as much as possible and re-reading the book. I do like the workout as it feels good to do all the stretching, so I'm sure it is helping one way or another.

I don't know the answer yet - we are hoping for reversal though perhaps stabilisation is all we will manage, but hope someone with experience may reply to you or me. I see apis mellifera has been fitted with a pessary, and has got encouragement form other forum users. I wasn't offered a pessary by my consultant - told it wouldn't work for rectocele. I don't know if my doctor or practice nurse would order and fit a pessary for me - if that is the case, then why wasn't I offered it when I first saw my GP in January? It almost feels like a conspiracy amongst the medics to suggest surgery (but why, when the NHS is so short of cash?). Perhaps there is an budget allowance for prolapse surgery so that is why the consultant wanted to steer me in that direction.

Have you considered a pessary?

thanks for sharing

Marigold

Tintagel,
I'm so happy that you wrote. I haven't posted in a while because I was feeling discouraged with my situation. I'm closer to 60. Because I've had a hysterectomy, it's highly unlikely that I can avoid surgical repair. The WW ladies have been fabulous with information and support, but I feel that I''m in a different situation than most because I've had a hysterectomy. I have a cystocele, rectocele, enterocele, and vaginal vault. I've only known about this for a few months (discovered straining from constipation) and now that I've discovered I have the prolapse, I've been going to lots and lots of doctors and arming myself with education. WW has been incredibly helpful and I'm doing the posture and yoga regularly. I decided to wait until the winter for my surgery to see if I can get stronger and be in more control of my body. I'm glad I'm waiting because in the meantime, I'm trying to get more educated and getting to know my body better.
Part of what has been difficult is to relieve the anxiety involved with all of this. Half a year ago, I didn't know I had a problem and I was such a happy, healthy, upbeat person. Now, I've turned into a person who seems to be concentrating on my prolapse issues, bladder issues, constiipation issues - probably these issues have been there, but I wasn't focused on them. I'm really working hard to relax and help put myself in a positive frame of mind and not feel "broken" about these issues. It's been very hard going to so many doctors, getting so many opinions, having so many exams, but I finally feel that I have turned a corner and feel better educated. I have found a superb doctor who is working with me and he will be able to do a sacrocolcopexy through laparascopic methods. I've done a lot of research and have a lot of medical trust. Now I am working to get constipation under control because I never want a repeat surgery.
Tintagel, we are all different and I think we have to remember that we are each dealing with very different issues. We have to take each day and do the best we can. I agree with you that this is scary, but I encourage you to seek out support, keep writing, and I'm sure you will find other people who are going through similar things too. We have to find what works for us. I feel for you - you are not alone out there.

Hey Tintagel

I picked a couple of things in your post. Just to clarify, WW work is not primarily about lifting the prolapse. It is primarily about using your body to move your pelvic organs forward onto bony support, not on top of the vagina. If you move them forward, they will go up. It is about re-instating the right angle at the top of the vagina, so the uterus flops forwards over the top of the bladder. In this configuration the bladder and uterus exert intraabdominal pressure on the *front* of the vagina, clamping it shut, not on the top of the vagina. 'Down' only happens when the pelvis is on the wrong angle. When your pelvis is in WW position 'down' becomes 'back', and gravity acts in a different direction relative to the pelvic structures. Gravity pushes the organs forwards and down (onto bone), rather than straight down (onto the abyss).

*In my personal opinion* this also pushes the upper part of the vagina back and clamps the empty rectum against the tailbone so it cannot fill until it is time for a bowel motion. Stool should not be sitting in the rectum all the time, only when the stool is pushed down into the rectum by peristalsis. It is a neat trick, to prevent the rectum being distended and causing damage to the rectovaginal fascia. See, I told you God is a girl!. :-) (Don't argue with me on that. No offence to anyone. I don't believe that gender is relevant to God). *End of personal opinion.* The jury is still out on this.

How wondrously we have been made!

You are right. Upper body strength is at the heart of being able to keep your organs in place.

L

I don't know if this is helpful, but my advice is to cultivate patience. All of us, regardless of age or condition, experience a back and forth of success. If I am correct, you have only been at this about 3 months, right? That's very little time when you think that you are attempting to correct a lifetime of POP development. I was 31 when I found my cystocele, and I'd say it took me a good 18 months to where the changes were lasting. I equate this work to body building, or gymnastics or ballet training or the like. Like those activities, you are sculpting your body and that takes time. If you had started weight training three months ago, would you expect to be at a competition level right now? Probably not. This work is not a quick fix, and that can be frustrating for sure. Try to be patient -- your body has everything it needs to help itself correct your POP. I am confident that you will soon find yourself moving "two steps forward" again soon!

Your words brought back all my negative feelings (and possible depression) I had in the firs 1-2 years after POP. Sometimes they come back and haunt, give me few days of sadness.

Can you imagine, I was only 28 when this happened to me? Boy, was I devastated!

Anyway, I came to encourage you, it will get better, please, be hopeful! I had to do WW posture for almost a year when small results started to come. Now, after 3 years I am symptom free (and trying to concieve again).

You just started the work. You are trying to reshape your body, your fascial planes here! You bet it won't happen overnight.

The key is your new posture. You will gain muscle strength. Your spine will heal. You bladder will apply less and less pressure on your fascial planes, as it will be forced to lie upon your pubic bone, our hope is that this fascia will reshape somewhat, so you won't feel the bulge in your vagina anymore. With every breath you will work yourself towards your goal. It will happen, but needs time, and patience from your part. Patience, sometimes I never had as a young chick....lol.

Oh, and answering one of your questions: for me, the bulge started to stay up (forward?) for hours at first. Then for half a day. Then entire days came and went without feeling the bulge. But it took me more than 1.5 year to see lasting improvements, i.e. the bulge stayed up for longer periods.

And, Louise, what a great little thought! I experience this myself! Kudos to you!

Wish everybody a nice day!
Liv

Hi Tintagel,
I can so identify with your discouragement! My pop appeared six weeks ago, and I fell into an emotional black hole. I am just now working my way out, but every few days, especially on the days I've been constipated and everything in the nether region has been uncomfortable, I have found myself sliding into the black hole again. I am encouraged by the posts of the pop veterans who have been able to stabillize and even reverse their pop to some degree. Just seeing that others have experienced the same sensations is affirming. And the advice here is always helpful. We will both have to keep working at it. I wish you well.
-key

to Tintagel, liv, Louise and others on this thread,

As always, I am encouraged by the sharing and mutual support.

Tintagel- I never thought about it before, but it makes a lot of sense that the longer the time since a bowel movement, the fuller the rectum will be and the more draggier. That is my experience too.
Last week on holiday I had no constipation, apart from eating lots of plums, my diet was pretty much the same as usual. This week not so good. I shall have to look up forum member's tips on that topic! And eat more plums.

I can also understand Louise's description of how WW brings the bladder, uterus and empty rectum up and forward to be above the pubic bone,. However, when the rectocele is BIG, I'm finding it a bit difficult to see how it can be eased back to it's rightful place.

However, I now enjoy holding myself in WW posture, so that is a big plus!

I have thought about meeting up with other forum members. Has anybody done this on a local or national basis?

Off to a festival this weekend with teenage daughter and her three friends. This will be a first for me, should be fun....

marigold

I agree that it can take time to reconfigure your pelvic organs, because it took time to de-configure them. It took me several years until I got rid of that unfinished poo feeling. I think it is a combination of tipping your bladder forward, stretching your vagina out so your uterus can bend far enough over your bladder and getting intestines out from behind your vagina and allowing the top of your vagina back under the sacrum to keep the intestines out.

Yesterday I purchased a bag of licorice bullets covered in dark chocolate. These are one of my weaknesses. They only just fitted in the jar so I had to eat one or two to help the process along. ;-)

These little dudes are about 20mm long and about 8mm in diameter with rounded ends, a bit like a large medicine capsule. I shook the jar and the top layer settled a bit lower, then repeated the shaking a few times. Each time they packed down a bit better with their shapes fitting around each other a bit better. The pelvic cavity is a particular-shaped 3D space. Each organ is a particular 3D shape, and expands in size in certain directions at certain times. There is an optimum way to pack them in that space so they can move around each other and expand and contract as needed. Doing inversion and vacuum type exercises is a way of 'shaking the jar' and letting them settle in a better combination.

I can personally see no reason why a woman who has just had a baby, or who is menstruating, cannot do the inversion part of these exercises, the hip hinge bends that allow the organs to come up out of the pelvic cavity, and settle back down again when she returns to upright. In fact I think as the tissues of the pelvis and abdomen revert to pre-pregnant state it is probably helpful to tip them out and let them back in again every now and them. However, I *don't* think the vaccum part of nauli and firebreathing are good in either of these cases.

There is also probably also some muscle memory training involved. The more you can use posture, and the more you reposition the organs correctly, the sooner it will all fall into place. This is a big ask where there is a large rectocele but you have nothing to lose by trying. I could never have believed the progress I have made over the last six years. You might never get the improvement I have had, but you can probably get a lot better than you are now. You won't know until you see how far you can get.

Louise

Hi. Just thought I'd mention something I remembered when reading your post: There was a point when I was still in the devastated stage that I was scratching my head (and laughing and crying, I have to admit) over the fact that in the doctor's office she'd say she saw no sign of pop - when I was lying on that table. And I heard other women say the same. Lying down - can't see it. So I was thinking.....hmmmmm...does that mean there is something about that position - something about that vacuum created, or whatever, that does indeed make things go back into place?? And IF so....(I thought this only jokingly AT FIRST) what IF I were to spend a lot of time on my doctor's table so I could be fine!! Hey why not spend my entire life on a Doctor's table and never feel pop again!! hahaha Hi, Doc, I know I don't have an appointment, but Five bucks to let me lie on your table for a few minutes!! I need some frickin' relief, Doc! hahaha

So....that led me to think WHAT IF I were to recreate that position? And I started sleeping like that at home! How embarrassing, but I did it! I got two pillows and I slept on my back. And I folded a pillow in half arch of the c facing me. And that was enough to prop each leg (back of a knee on a folded pillow) as if they were in stirrups. haha Yessirree, I slept like that! And after a couple of days I did feel improvement but I was doing other things and I THINK that may also have been when Fab was telling me clearly, hey, quit wining and clear you bowels woman. lol I was too miserable and too innocent to understand that until hit over the head the millionth time. I THOUGHT constipation had nothing to do with me.

Anyway, that position seemed to get things back. Adn once in a while hanging off he side of a bed or on an ironing board. And doing Louise's on the knees kind of jiggling things forward once in a while. But often on elbows, not just 'hands' and knees. I can relate to that initial feeling of man I can't get these organs to go back home!! lol But take heart, I was a hard case! And I am healed.

One thing I'd like o mention to the vets here - I come back to help and encourage. But I realized the other night I also come back because the fear is still there. Once in a while I feel that because one has to be EVER MINDFUL lest one jump over a fence without thinking! lol (egh, Alemama! lol).

So that fear of THE sneeze or THE twist the wrong way, is vaguely there. And I am still working back into full exercise. But otherwise - completely normal. Completely. No weird sensations - nothing.

So take heart! It happens. For those of you toying with operations - wait. Give this a chance. All the helpful tidbits are great. It's the posture that's key. The rest - do it! But remember, standing correctly WILL stop it in its tracks. And remember, our bodies are MADE in with built in healing mechanisms. Healing IS possible. Possible MEANS POSSIBLE! Repeat that to yourselves. And hope is key. There IS hope.

I’ll add to this positive discussion by just mentioning that while it’s wonderful CSF has experienced such profound and quick results, I think it’s important to emphasize that some percentage of older women will see far less reversal - even over time. I want to acknowledge the sadness and even jealousy that can accompany such a realization. These are very legitimate feelings, which take time and gentle self-care to work through.

Have a look at hystersisters.com to remind yourselves where the surgical path leads. I think the women who struggle the most are those who keep a ray of “surgical hope” alive at the back of their minds. Hysterectomy and all accompanying surgeries cannot fix prolapse, but only introduce a host of other and often far more serious problems.

There is always more we could be doing to improve our conditions. In fact, if we were to be suddenly transported to a desert island where we could swim in the surf all day, run and jump and play, and be fed nutritious food, all our symptoms would probably improve considerably. What’s hard is living in the “real” world with prolapse. I just finished making lunch for four. Now the tea is steeping, which I will dutifully deliver with our sweet treat (dried mango or raisins) to two different offices. Tonight there is washing and ironing and tomorrow more of the same.

Even though it is hard and sometimes emotionally challenging, I do love my life. I can’t run away to an island and wouldn’t want to if I could. What I can do try to take good care of myself today and better care tomorrow. There is always hope and I never give up hope completely that my prolapse might totally reverse some day.

For now, I take pleasure in how much better I can breathe, how strong I feel, and how happy I am that I’ve cultivated a deep trust in my original design.

Loved your post, Christine! Thanks! :)

Liv