trial and error

Submitted by ikam on November 10, 2011 - 11:52am
Body: 

Today, I am somehow irritated and impatient. It all feels like a trial and error...I started using sea sponges. First day was perfect, no pain, no feeling of being packed up. Next day, painful again. Had problem with removing sea sponge, ouch...Cut it to a smaller one, used today, pain again, paked up, maybe not so much than before. The pocket (rectocele) seems to be higher up- is this possible? Is it possible that it moves around?

I don't know if I am doing right things or not. I only self-diagnosed myself with a rectocele (as I have all the symptoms), but I know nothing about how big it is...

I am impatient, irritable today...have no answers to my questions, as I can get them only through trial and error. At some point I will master it. Will I???

I used to have pain all day long, so it is better...but it is not as it used to be, it is not normal...
I can only persevere...I have been doing Christine's workout, the beginners part every morning. I try to use WW posture (but I am unsure if I do it correctly; I try to follow instructions)...I follow my diet, take supplements, walk to work and back every day, do my adjustments to the way I sit...

I guess, I am just venting...I feel a bit lost again, but I know I have to stay on track, or my condition will deteriorate...There is also this big question: why me???
Ivonush

Salt

November 10, 2011 - 2:22pm

hi Ivonush,
you are not alone on the rollercoaster of being on track, then feeling lost again, then getting back on track again etc.
I am like that too.
for the last week I've been feeling very low and overwhelmed. nasty thoughts of 'how can I live with this for the rest of my life? another 60 years?!?'
and the one you mentioned in another post of feeling awful that my life revolveds around bowel movements at age 35. :|
I'm glad you're still here, still sharing. sometimes the venting can help, then we can get back on track again, knowing we aren't alone, that we have somewhere to share this stuff that it will be understood.
I know it actually helped me a bit to read this post of yours today.
I am not in the least bit glad you are suffering, just selfishly glad to read words so close to how I feel, so close to my situation.

I spent hours yesterday behind a closed door because I was so irritable and miserable that I didn't want to impose myself on anyone!

I, too, am self-diagnosed with rectocele.
For me it seems to be very large - sometimes worse high up the vaginal wall and sometimes the entire vaginal wall from opening up to beyond as far as I can reach.
so, for me, it does seem to be able to fluctuate at times.
the other prolapses can do that so it makes sense that the rectoceles might be able to also... I think :)

I have also been thinking of trying a sea sponge as a pessary. I have the prolapse of the uterus and bladder too (confirmed by doctor). I hope the trial and error leads to you finding an approach that works well for you.

take care
Salt

ikam

November 11, 2011 - 12:57am

Hi Salt,
Thank you for your answer. It is very much up and down with me, depending on pain or/and discomfort. There are times I lose hope and then get back on track...
I am on my 4th day of using Sea Sponge, I think it helps, but I am still unsure how to use it (what size, how deep? etc.)...but it stops this horrible feeling of pressure...
When I read your answer, same as you I felt that I can relate to waht you said, although I don't wish anybody to suffer like this. But it helps to hear that I am not alone...
I was losing my hope yesterday, felt defeated again...hopefully it will be better day today...
I wish life was back to normal...

With warm wishes, have a good day!
Ivonush

ikam

November 11, 2011 - 7:54am

OK, I am losing it (yet again). maybe because I am tired. Last couple of days have been "on and off" more painful and I don't know how to manage it anymore.
Maybe I am still looking for a "quick fix"? When I suffered from migraines they were more managable with medication...Next day I was migraine free!
This time pain comes and goes and I don't know how I contribute to it...

Yes, I am want to have it all fixed now (!)...

I have not been fully diagnosed yes, so my I think sometimes what if I have something else? I don't have a cancer (I had MRI scan)...

Losing hope...when it will get better? Will I be able to climb mountains again???
Ivonush

Surviving60

November 11, 2011 - 8:03am

Ivonush, you can't give up so early. Looking for a quick fix is what drives women to surgeries that make their problems worse. Rather, you learn the tools that can help you to help yourself, and you have to apply them for the rest of your life. You've barely begun. If you don't have Christine's book, please get it, read it through (it's very technical in parts) and then revisit it on a regular basis. We are all here for you!

ikam

November 11, 2011 - 8:11am

I know "quick fix" is not a solution...and I DON'T WANT TO SEEK IT...but at the same time, I was used to quick fixes. My father was a doctor, so I was medicated at least twice a year with antibiotics, my mother would take me to private doctors "to fix me". I was hospitalised 5 times in childhood, 3 times later...
I was always taking medication for any symptoms and always followed doctor's suggestions.
It is only recently when I realised "they don't know what they talk about"! (very often)...

I want to persevere, but I have this part in me which looks for quick solutions...

I am going to read Christine's book over the weekend...

I see that Christine provides private consultations, maybe I will book one...

It is strange to live with "just self-diagnosing" myself. I am unsure if I am right...

I will not give up...although I have been in pain today (it is something that is similar to so-called proctalgia, sharp pain in the rectum...on and off)...

Maybe I just need some rest, I will look after myself over the weekend...

I need support, although I feel I talk and talk and talk, all the time about pain, I want to tak about hope, climbing mountains, etc.
Ivonush

Surviving60

November 11, 2011 - 8:22am

Ivonush, I too am self-diagnosed (I THINK it's stage 1 uterine, and stage 2 rectocele and cystocele). I don't even want or need a diagnosis because the "treatment" is the same.....follow the WW principles and make them part of your life. I have been doing it for a year and a half. I have my good and bad days, and many times I'm not even sure what causes the ups and downs. I just know that I CAN live with it, even make it better, and keep it from worsening, if I put my mind to it. You need to stop being so hard on yourself. At the beginning, it seems like the end of the world, but you will find that it is not, if you give everything a chance. - Surviving

ikam

November 11, 2011 - 9:21am

Yes, I have times that I think "I can live with this", but when the pain kicks in, I easily feel "it is the end of the world"...
But despite of this, I have been doing the beginners workshop since Monday every morning! I never exerciced in the morning in my entire life!

Today has been more painful, and I don't know why...I have been also more agitated/nervous.
I think it may relate to taking Estriol on Wednesday, I will try to take hald of a dose (it was suggested to me to take it twice a week)...

I thought I "knew" more about my body, I know not a lot...

Few years ago, I wean myself from an antidepressant (I used to take Venlafaxine). i followed a special protocol for decreasing it and it took me three years. It was difficult, especially in the beginning. Then I discovered there was some pattern in my symptoms, I manged to recognise my triggers, there were times I needed to get back to the previous dose...

I bought a dairy just to write my symptoms at present. I need to figure it out, understand what to expect and when...

Do people write any diares, are there any templates for it? If not I will make my own...
This really helped me in the past, I wrote all the symptoms down and monitored stress level, sleep, menstrual cycle, everything that contributed to my symptoms.

I know I CAN live with it, I don't feel it today, I am in pain again, but maneagable pain...

Thank you for your support.
Ivonush

hockeyMom

November 11, 2011 - 5:29pm

Hi Ivonush,
When I first had my POP I did find it really helpful to keep a diary of what I ate, what exercise I did and where I was in my menstrual cycle, along with the POP symptoms of the day. It did help me to see a pattern within my menstrual cycle, which seems to affect me more than everything else I do altogether.

At first I kept thinking, oh, it's when I do yoga, or it's when I run ... but then I tried not doing these things and still the bad days came. I am 48 yrs old, and my hormones levels appear to be fluctuating and that seems to be causing my most aggravating symptoms.

For example, this month my rectocele symptoms were driving me crazy for some reason. Lots of pressure in my anus, all the time, feels like something in there always. Then, boom, overnight, NOTHING. All symptoms gone. Did I do something? Well, I ovulated (or attempted to - I don't think my ovaries are working very well anymore :-), and now things are better. Last month I got lots of pelvic inflammation, and my period was 10 days late. This month I will probably be early. POP management is hard in perimenopause, my worst symptoms seem to be caused by stuff I can't really control.

When I first had my POP my doctor recommended an estrogen cream to help reduce the inflammation in my pelvic tissues. It felt good for a couple of weeks, but then I started having break-through bleeding (bleeding mid-menstrual cycle which I have never had before in my life). So I think I was now getting too much estrogen ... I would like nothing more than to 'fix' my hormones but I am afraid that attempting to balance them from the outside just resulted in a different kind of imbalance.

I have found some relief with the red clover tea, flaxseed and adding soy milk into my diet. What I can say is that I now have days, like today, where everything feels normal. Sure I still have some bad days but the WW methods have given me many days of normal.

My bowel behaviour seem to fluctuate within with my menstrual cycle as well, much more so than with what I eat ... loose, hard, fast, slow, who knows ... and also I have hemmorhoids which are also affected by my hormones. Gah! It just sucks sometimes :-)

Keeping a diary did help me see that there was a pattern which helped me from going crazy wondering I what I was doing to make it worse. Usually, I was doing nothing except getting older - ha ha. Hopefully it will help you as well.

ikam

November 12, 2011 - 4:16am

Hi,
it makes sense, I have been peri-menopausal for some time now. I am 51 years old. My menstrual cycle is completely unpredicatable. I still keep daily temperature check, so at least I know a bit more if I ovulated...
My present cycle has been another long one with no ovulation...
So, as you said things are not predictable anymore and hormonal imbalance seems to be aggravating the symptoms.
Same as you, I have a second stage hemorhoids and I think sometimes pain may come from their inflamation...I use some creams regularly...

I was prescribed estriol twice a week, vaginal pessaries. I took half of a dose and it was OK, then I took a prescribed dose last Wednesday and i felt sick, had a headache, and felt rather restless...
I will try half a dose again today...
I read somewhere that estrogen is used to help to make a vaginal wall stronger (?)...but I stopped trusting doctors anymore...

Do you also get pain associated with your rectocele? I have this pain deep inside my rectum (or vagina) and this is a symptom which is the most difficult for me...
One of the gyno said it was an old endometriosis, and suggested to do nothing and not to borther about POP. Just wait...hmmm...This pain is so painful!
I have the symptoms you described, the pressure inside, difficulty to defecate, incomplete defecation, and my stool collects in the pocket. When I used a sponge for 4 days, I have had only one BM a day! This feels good, but the sponge is still something so new for me (trial and error)...

I noticed that I get better when I have time off work. Then, I need to get a train on Sunday evening and the symptoms are back. So, I guess it is something to do with me getting more mobilised in my body, tensening muscles, preparing for action.
I wish I could have time of work, but I work on a contract and cannot afford any times off, apart from the weekends...
I need to find the way of getting back to work, but staying more relaxed in my body...I have started doing exercices every morning, just the workout for beginners...

So my life has been crazy for some time, this is when my POP started...

Now I need to revert this process. As I said I feel up and down, but I see I suffer less than one month ago. I had pain from around 10am, straight after BM, to the time I was going to bed, I was taking a painkiller at evening and was in bed around 8pm; next day was the same. And I felt I wanted to die...

I feel a bit more in control now. I know I can talk here, I feel more supported...I know I get impatient, I know it will take some time...it is so difficult to stay optimistic when symptoms come back...but then I build my hope again and talking here helps enormously...
Thank you,
Ivonush

hockeyMom

November 13, 2011 - 1:13pm

I don't always get pain with my rectocele (or rectal prolapse - not sure which it is or if they are even the same thing). Usually it is just uncomfortable because I can feel it all the time. But sometimes I get an achey-type pain higher up, near my coccyx. At the start of my POP, I had two months where I did have pain deep inside whenever I was sitting, it felt like something was twisted up inside. But that has resolved.

When I first had my prolapse, I had different symptoms than now. Originally I had all this pressure in my vulva, and it felt like having a tampon in the wrong place all the time in my vagina. I no longer have the vulva pressure, and rarely have the wrong-tampon feeling, but lately I have this feeling like something is in my rectum all the time. My uterus is prolapsed - not too far, my cervix has never reached the introitus, but it is easily reachable inside - and I think that with the WW posture I have been moving it up a bit, but right now it is poking into my back vaginal wall and I think that is what makes me feel like there is something there. When I feel around, my cervix seems to line up pretty well with the anus, so I have this feeling of something pushing on it - which usually would be stool but in this case is maybe my cervix.

I'm hoping that all this is happening because my pelvic contents are rearranging themselves. I am trying to interpret it as a good sign that my uterus is perhaps going back up to a better place. It seems to be putting way less pressure on my front vaginal wall, anyway. I have noticed that after I do Bikram yoga (I am very careful to do it always in WW posture, and all the moves that are done with the arms over the head seem to really lift everything up - I never feel my POP in class), for hours after I don't feel anything at all in my bum. This makes me think that my displaced uterus/cervix is at other times impinging on my bowel. So I just keep hoping that as things keep lifting my rectum and bowel will shift into positions where they aren't so kinked up and pushed down.

Thank god for this forum, it is the only thing that gives me hope that it can happen. It seems from other peoples stories that rectoceles can be quite intractable, but that over time improvements happen. So I try to just keep on ... by the way, Ivonush, you should know that your story and your strength in the face of all you have dealt with help me to keep on plugging away. So thanks.

ikam

November 14, 2011 - 3:47am

I read your answer in the morning. I don’t have much time today to answer...
But on my way to work I thought: I would love to learn the skill you have, to be able to observe my body without the panicky feelings. I get panicky straight when I think something is “wrong” rather than observe what is happening in my body. You seem to be able to follow the signs and stay patient…
I seem to be my own worst enemy…
Every time the pain kicks in I get overemotional…
This forum helps me to stay on track...I WANT TO LEARN to listen to my body, to observe it, to trust the process within it...
Thank you,
Ivonush

louiseds

November 15, 2011 - 7:27am

Ivonush, what steps have you taken to address your bowel problems? And what medications and supplements are you taking regularly?

ikam

November 15, 2011 - 9:54am

Louise,
As it was very bad (it looks like IBS) last year, I went to see naturopath/homeopath. I have changed my diet to wheat free, and slowly introduced food (I was unable to eat anything but potaoes and carrots at some point...). I eat quite healthy. In the morning lots of fiber, mostly ouat based + some berries. Afternoon, warm food, some cooked meat + vegetables (still mostly potatoes, carrot, parsnip), evening rice with fish or sea food, cammomile tea...

I take some supplements:
- Total Leaky gut(http://www.nutriwest.com/cat/2703.htm)
- Pemavite (http://www.nutricology.com/Perm-A-Vite-Pwd-300-Grams-p-16552.html)
- good strenght of priobiotics
- Mastic Gum
- Slippery Elm in capsules
- Pancreatic enzymes supplement in the afternoon (I had problem with digesting fat)
- Unfortunatelly, still use Proton Pomp Inhibitor (for acid reflux)
- Low dose of a triciclic antidepressant

With my BM, I have no problem in the morning, but in the afternoon it my stool takes form of pellets, I think it is when it collects in the pouch and stays there for longer...

I have been much better with digestion of certain foods (cannot eat everything, but it was always a case with me), also I don't go to toilet 10+ times a day. But since the rectocele, it is more tricky with full evacuation...

Thanks,
Ivonush

louiseds

November 15, 2011 - 7:00pm

Hi Ivonush

It looks like you are not eating many green things, which are full of so much in the way of vitamins and minerals. The crucifers, ie any vegetable which has leaves which cross over each other, are wonderful foods, eg Broccoli, cabbage, kale, cauliflower, brussell sprouts, plus leaves from the beet family, and sorrell, spinach etc. Any problems with these?

The pellet thing is a bit weird. I have often wondered about this. It is as if the colon spasms and only lets a little stool through at any time, and it sits there drying out as it moves along slowly. I think you would be best to ask a doctor about this. There is also a Stool Grading system that is an objective way of describing stool. You might be able to Google it and see where that takes you.

I also wonder if the antideprressant you are on is making this happen? Try googling 'tricyclic antedepressant constipation' and make a start on the 670000 hits. IBS is mentioned frequently in these hits too. Some good IBS sites too. I think you might find some answers.

Louise

alemama

November 15, 2011 - 9:16pm

don't get bugged! I eat meat right now. But I suggest you remove meat and see how you feel. Give it a few days.
Oh man. I know how that whole eating only two things goes. It's no fun. Glad you are able to eat again!

bad_mirror

November 16, 2011 - 12:18am

Yes Ivonush, tricyclics most common side effects are dry mouth, lowered gastric motility, and constipation. I wonder if you might benefit from an independent practitioners review of all of your medications and supplements. I know I am very surprised that you have been given estradiol given the medical history you have revealed here. Also, just because a supplement is "natural" does not mean that it is without the potential to cause adverse medication interactions. It is possible that something else you are taking is compounding the drying effects of your tricyclic antidepressant. I hope you can find someone to go over your medications with you and maybe find alternatives that allow you to treat your conditions *and* enjoy regularity.
Best wishes.

ikam

November 16, 2011 - 8:12am

Louise,

up to April this year I was able to eat more less normally, including cabbage, greens etc. In April my body "said stop", I was unable to eat much and for longer than one month I ate only potatoes and carrots for dinner, as my body was rejecting other food.
I was told I had some pancreatic problems and was put on Creon (pancreatic enzymes)…

Then I went to a naturopath, we managed to get me off Creon, but I am still taking a very low dose of pancreatic supplement at dinner time.
She introduced slowly some supplements and my bowel started working properly (I am still not back to the way I used to be)…I started introducing slowly different type of food, and I am still experimenting. I cannot eat cauliflower, I tried spinach and green leave vegetables. Still reacting with diarrhea…but this is my plan to introduce something each week, and monitor how I respond.

Tricyclic antidepressant (the lowest possible dose) was introduced as I was emotionally overstimulated, which had a bad impact on my bowels, also I hardly slept. It also helps with migraines. Again my aim is to get off this, when I will manage settle down.
My life has been very difficult since around 2009. I left eventually job due to the bullying and harassment in April 2010. I started having bowel problems since…I have not settled down in any permanent job yet…I am only on short term contract now…
I am not very good in dealing with any unpredictable situations (although I know life is not predictable!)…
So I need to wait a bit longer with stopping antidepressant. It actually helped my IBS to settle down…

I have been a bit better emotionally only recently. It took me really long to get my confidence back…
But my body crashed after all this…there was much more (changing many jobs, my mother being ill, etc.)…

In terms of my afternoon BM, I will be introducing slowly something called the Guna Bowel, something suggested to me by my homeopath. Apparently it is quite gentle in action…
When I will have some extra money I need to visit her again, as she managed to get me better…

Doctor's answer (gastrologist) to the pellets was that this relates to the IBS. Also he suggested that my rectal pain relates to IBS, calling it visceral hypersensitivity.

I also need to find out what actually causes my normal BM in the morning and pellets in the afternoon. I may experiment and stop eating rice in evening.

I see I need to experiment a lot and find the roots of my BM problems…I know tricyclic antidepressants may contribute to constipation, but not in a dose I take…

Thanks,
Ivonush

ikam

November 16, 2011 - 8:15am

I did not eat meat for couple of months, slowly introduced only white meat (pork and chicken breast). I don't think it affects me much. I was told I need proteins, I lost a lot of weight, I managed to put on some, which is good.
As I said I experiment with food, I don't fry anything anymore, almost don't use any fat...
But I would be unable to eat any red meat or lamb..
Ivonush

ikam

November 16, 2011 - 8:23am

Hi, I take only 25mg in evening...Also my medication was reviewed recently with my naturopath. We were experimenting for some time, as I had very bad acid reflux, and as I said IBS...
I will stay on it for longer. It is not a good time to reduce or stop it...I will be with no work in the end of January and I am not really good (anxiety wise) in dealing with such situations...

I stopped estriol, did not suit me. I had migraine and felt so naseous!

I am more settled emotionally and phisically than around half a year ago, but still need some adjustments and reviewing...

I added Permavite in the morning today, I will see how it works. I will also add the Guna Bowel, when I will receive it by post...

The Pancreatic enzymes supplement I take now, was to relpace the medication prescribed by doctor's and called Creon, I have been decreasing this supplement slowly...

Thank you,
Ivonush

louiseds

November 16, 2011 - 9:06pm

Hi Ivonush

This really shouldn't be as hard as it is for you. Hopefully we will be able to help you find solutions.

Just wondering what time of day you take the antidepressant? I am thinking it is probably morning, because that's what seems to be normal, to set you up for the day. I am wondering if it would be possible to try taking it at a different time and see if your stool changes, along with that. This would hopefully not interfere with the regularity of this medication but it might tell you if it is the cause of the pellets.

If the pellets still come in the afternoon you can give the antidepressant a tick, and look somewhere else for causes. If your stool characteristics change to the pellets appearing at a different time of day, then I think you can say the pellets are a result of the antidepressant, and stop worrying about it. Just let them be and accept that you will have this until you stop the antidepressant. Somehow it is often easier to accept something negative if we know the cause of it.

Just remember to only change one thing at a time so you are clear about the results of changing only one factor.

I hope you like carrots, and I hope you can find nice fat, sweet ones. Carrots are one of my favourite foods. Sometimes I think I am turning orange!

Louise :-)

ikam

November 17, 2011 - 1:04am

Louise, I take antidepressant for other reason than depression, it is to decrease my autonomic nervous system arousal and help me to sleep. I take it in evening...I did take another dose in the morning as well (I have already decreased it), but my BM was never any different with higher dose. If I take it during the day I will be sleepy all day...

A lot has changed, improved. It is important that I can introduce more food and my body does not reject it...
It was very strange time when I was unable to eat...

The only difficulty with the pellets is that they are more difficult to get out, also I have more pressure inside anus and vagina with them...

In the meantime, I am using suppositories only every second day. I want to stop them....

I organised an appointment with PT who specialises in a pelvic floor...

Best wishes,
Ivonush

louiseds

November 17, 2011 - 2:48am

Hi Ivonush

It sounds like you are making some real progress. Recovering from acute POP symptoms can be a very up and down affair. Eventually you will come to trust your body again, and realise that it will get better if you give it good treatment. In the meantime, just expect to get variations from day to day, and remember that during perimenopause anything goes.

Try not to measure your progress any more often than monthly. To wring one's hands about changes over a day or even a week is a recipe for being obsessed by our pelvic organs. It is quite common. We call it 'checkarama', and it is to be avoided at all costs. Don't even let yourself check. Just do all the right things and ignore what's going on in your vulva. There are much more fun things to think about.

Louise

I don't know enough about tricyclic antidepressants to comment further on whether they could be part of the problem (as well as part of the solution for something else). It is entirely between you and your doctor to manage medications. I just want you to consider the possible causes of these problems you are having, and medications are often enough culprits with bowels that don't work properly.

Any medication will affect the body in different ways. Sometimes it is not dosage specific. The more types you take the more interactions there will be between drugs, and the more complicated it becomes to balance your health. I do hope you can get off them eventually.

Louise

ikam

November 17, 2011 - 6:28am

I am making progress, I know it, or I feel it...unfortuantelly, it is hard to stop checking myself...it is as if my whole attention has been on my pelvic organs...and then I panic...then get better...on so on, so on...until I will learn to ignore signs, which somehow I still consider as a sign of illnes...
As I said it is a fight between medical and intuitive, but also between my parent's beliefs and the ones I have been just creating...

It is sad, but I have been on antidepressants since I was 23 years old...I managed to wean myself from so called SSRIs, but when recently I have been under enormous stress i had to add triciclic ones. It was more my choice that I suggested to my doctor. I was also quite depressed after the bullying...
I never had BM problems before when I used to take antidepressants...

It all actually started when I was put on Creon (pancreatic enzymes) and was unable to eat a lot...when I stopped Creon and introduced supplements (carefully chosen by my naturopath) things have started getting better...
But this was the time I have also started to have POP problems...

I think that after a long time of stress, something just collapsed in me. I was still strong in my mind, had to carry on with my contract (despite of feeling totally exhausted), but my body said "stop", but I still had to carry on...so it "collapsed"...and I still need to carry on...
I know I need a long break, if I had one a lot of my problems would disapear, but...

I am much better that few months ago...

I need to get more balance in my body...

I have been doing the beginners work-out for the second week, every day after waking up...it also lifts my mood :)
Ivonush