no straining!

Hi Ivonush, instead of straining, i do Christine's up and down movement on the toilet. I lean forward on the toilet seat and when i feel the stool coming i lift myself up off the seat (keeping forward) and everything tips out just like tipping contents out of a bucket. If the stool is firm it comes out in one go but if it's soft you may need to lift up 2 or 3 times.
It may take a few times to get the hang of it. Hope this helps.

Can't wait to have a lively discussion after you've read the December issue of the Village Post (Christine's Column). Hope to have it up tonight! :)

When I learned about straining being a cause of rectocele development, I began to tell my little ones not to push, that the poop willcome when it's good and ready. Sometimes my three year old will pee and then tell me he has poop in his 'tummy' but it doesn't wanna come out yet. I tell him that when he needs to poop he can visit the bathroom again.

I have tried Christine's up down movement to experiment, without much success. I mean I don't think I can hold myself in that position stable enough to have a bm (unless of course I was right about to poop anyway). Maybe when I build the needed strength in my thighs..

What I do find really good for pooping (even if I dont have the urge yet), is squatting. I live in a part of the world where squat toilets are still very common and often public restrooms are only squat toilets (much cleaner imo than regular toilets, your body doesn't come in contact with *anything* other than your shoe-d feet- the toes & ball- on the ground). To avoid splashing yourself with your own urine you have to be in WW position. Sometimes, even if you think you only need to pee, you might end up pooping as well. Something about that position helps to trigger peristalsis. Sometimes it can take 10+ minutes in that position to trigger the feeling of needing to eliminate and it might be difficult to squat that long at first but eventually your calves will gain the strength they need. If I'm at home (where I don't have a squat toilet) and happen to be backed up, I try squatting for a while to get the elimination feeling going. Sometimes it works, other times I don't have patience to wait long enough. Anyone else have experience in squatting? And does anyone know why this position triggers peristalsis?

I literally tried it as soon as I read your squatting suggestion and it worked - and I've been trying a lot lately! It might have also been good timing given I just had breakfast but I am still impressed and will definitely be doing it again! Thanks so much for sharing it with us!

is the same as LoPo. Search that on the Forums. Doing the up and down thing often doesn't work straight away. I think what it does is to straighten out the rectum and sigmoid colon, and draw them away from the anus, so there are less kinks. Same effect as nauli and firebreathing. I often find that I will then feel the urge again later in the day. I keep doing the same thing until I feel the normal sensations of complete emptyiing. I regard that half-empty feeling as simply a distraction, not something that I have to attend to. The half empty thing is always worse when I am hurrying, ie stressed. There is no doubt at all about the stress/pooping difficulties link.

When you are trying to sort out pooping difficulties I think you have to throw all the rules out the window. Your stool doesn't have to identically well-formed every time. I could write a Poo Encyclopaedia about the variations in mine, which are largely about fluid intake and variety in my diet! You don't have to poop at the same time each day. There is no magic number of times per week that we should poop. I think the rules are to make us feel that there is something wrong with us if we differ from what is 'normal', and run out and buy laxatives.

What you need to do is attend to, and respond to, your body's urge whenever it presents itself. Don't hang on. Find a toilet and go. This is expressing faith in your body's better judgement, and doing what it wants to do. If the urge doesn't produce a motion, don't worry. Your body will remind you again in a while. If I get constipated, I sometimes have five or six small poops a day. That is just my body's way of clearing a log jam. Then I am back to normal the following day. It knows what to do. Just have faith in it and let it be. Trying to control it is simply being neurotic.

If I complained to a doctor about it I think they would give me a diagnosis of IBS, which would just make me laugh. :-) It may be true, but it if is not a problem for me, then it is not a problem.

I would rather worry about solving world hunger than controlling my strong-willed digestive system. I pick my fights carefully, these days.

BTW, I no longer have rectocele symptoms.

L

I was potty-trained in the very early 1950's (I'm in the US). While I don't have specific memories of myself that young, once I started school I was expected to do something before I left the house. Although there was some pressure to perform, and probably a great deal of straining to get it done, in all fairness to my mom I'm sure she was trying to spare me having to go to the bathroom at school.

It was so different with my own kids because they were in daycare for part of their day, all through the potty-training period. It was like a social event. The kids learned from each other, the staff was low-key, and I can't remember a single time when I felt like I had to hurry my kids along in the bathroom.

Remember that this move (lifting slightly up and forward off the toilet) is shown in Saving The Whole Woman as a way to assist emptying the bladder also, if the prolapse makes this difficult. It tips the bladder into a better position for emptying.

When this first happened to me i would be in the loo for ages.I dreaded going out.I wonder why, as i eat a bit better, but i seem to be not in the loo very long at all now.

Hi Ivonush, i feel better but still have a lump that comes and goes.I call it that thing again as i am not that positive about prolapse or what things are.I am reading Christines books.I have the two of her books,The First aid for prolapse and the piano music on the cd.Saving The Whole Woman i sent for awhile back The first book is interesting about the women who were having medical things done long ago in America.By male doctors experimenting as usual.

Hi Surviviving 60 I received your email today.Thanks.Email me again if you want.

We are all saying things that we would never have dared to say in our youth. There is a real purging happening (if you will pardon the pun).

I think it is time for some endorphins. I do hope we can all take the time to step back at least once a day and have a good belly laugh about all this!

Come on body, just tell me what you want, and when you want it, and we will all be happy!

LOLOL!!

That's it for me for today.

:-) :-) :-)

I just read that you are still straining- not as much- but that you are still doing it.
I have a rectocele and I can not imagine that straining is any good for your body. I am so happy that your pain is mostly gone now.
I think if you want any chance of reversing your prolapse you have got to stop straining.
Would you share with us what you are eating? and also what you are doing to manage constipation (enema, laxatives, etc) Maybe we can suggest something that might help.

Yes, just be in the moment (to use a cliche). I overthink things too, and it feels really nice when I can just respond naturally and intuitively, without all the brain static.

does strong tea = caffeine?
What's in the cereal bar?
Could you avoid meat?
typing one handed-sleeping baby on other arm-

How would your body tolerate a little red meat, Ivonush? If you are not eating a lot of greens, a bit of red meat would help your iron supply considerably, especially as you do have haemorhoids. do you have heavy perioeds?

I am not trying to make you think you are sick, by saying this. It was just a passing thought. ;-)

Louise

So then, you are eating also, oats, mango, apple and walnuts

This gives you a great deal more fiber to work with.

I recommend going off the cereal bar immediately. Stock your fridge with fresh mango, fresh apples and fresh walnuts.
Peal the apple and eat it right before bed.
Give up the chicken and pork- eat the fish instead. It's short term to see if it will work- I have a rectocele and for the first year I knew about it, we were vegetarian. Then we made a major diet shift and added meat and the one major change I can report is that the meat made the poo more dense- heavier. This doesn't seem to be a problem for any of us- but it could be for you and you just don't know it yet.
Make sure the oats you buy are gluten free. Get the steel cut if you can.

caffeine - reports are mixed on this- some people say it has a laxative effect, others say it's constipating. Cut it out for 2 weeks and you will know how it interacts with your body.

I would not worry about losing too much weight while you try to figure this out- a few weeks to a month should be fine.

I hear you saying you think it's all in your head- but the truth is - you are what you eat- and it may not be all in your head. You may be reacting to the foods you are eating.
Also, what was working for you a few months ago may not be working now-for example- the potatoes you are eating could be bothering you. Maybe try sweet potatoes?

Last thought: the timing of the food consumption can make a big difference- and if you drink when you eat or not and how much water you take on a day. Play with that too. Pealed apple before bed- 8 oz of water when you wake up might be a good combo for producing a bm in the morning.

Just a reminder that very low- and no-fat diets are associated with constipation. Your sample diet does seem quite low fat. Avocados, nuts, coconut, flax, raw butter, egg yolks, & oily fish might be considerations for you. Sometimes "healthy eating" causes people to ban fats, but they are essential for absorbing many vitamins, maintaining energy, and emotional health. I think about 30% of our daily intake should be of these "good" fats. If you are prone to depression, proper fat intake can help. It may well help your elimination issues as well. Just a consideration ....

I am now 53 and have had 2 kids - now 25 and 22 years old. I had a bladder prolapse initially, which caused a lot of embarrassing stress incontinence and in 2008 had a Birch Colposuspension. All was great for a while, then I was aware that something else was prolapsing. I had it checked out, and it was my uterus, and pretty bad, so had a vaginal hysterectomy and a enterocele repair in November 2010. Now lo and behold, something else has prolapsed. I have been examined and told that I now have a vaginal vault prolapse. Desperate not to go through another big operation they tried ring pessaries on me to push everything back, but no success as they just kept falling out, so now I'm going to have to have the operation. Just waiting to see a consultant. The problems I am experiencing are struggling to empty my bladder fully. I have had 2 UTI's since November. I find this worse in a morning. I have a wee - feel fully empty - stand up and within a minute or 2 need to go again. This happens 3 or 4 times before I'm happy that I am pretty empty. I must admit I have tried one of the tips mentioned on here - leaning right forward and this is helping, but it still seems very slow to get this last bit out!! I too suffer from constipation and of course everything is worse if I haven't had a BM for a day or 2 - I often have the sensation that I have a full bowel even if I haven't - I'm assuming this is connected to the prolapse? My Dr has prescribed Movicol to help. Oh God I've rambled on....just don't know where to turn at the moment. Going through a lot of stress and anxiety following the recent death of my Dad, and all his affairs need sorting - just feel everything is getting too much...... Like I said I would be so grateful for any advice or more tips to help deal with this prolapse and in the particular the weeing bit!
Thank you for listening.....
Annie xx

Hi AnnieGail
It sounds like you would rather hang your body on a coathook for a bit and get everything else in your life sorted out. Drowning, not waving. Sometimes life conspires against us and we end up trying to deal with everything at once. I can sympathise with you.

It is strange that the gyn tried a ring pessary repeatedly, hoping for it to work. Your body is missing your uterus, so there is some spare space in there, through which your small intestine is trying to squeeze. You might be better to try a pessary that will take up a bit more volume, like a donut pessary, which is a similar radius as a ring, only fatter, with a smaller hole. This will give your bladder a bit more help to stay forward, and will make weeing easier.
It really is critical, for UTI prevention, to be able to empty your bladder almost completely, every day. If it takes a while that doesn't matter. It is just important that you get out that last bit, and keep your water consumption up in order to keep flushing stale urine out of your system. and to keep your urine diluted. Your urinary tract will thank you for this. It is sometimes tempting as we get older and our bladder control doesn't behave as well as it used to, for whatever reason, to drink less, rather than more, thinking it will reduce the bladder problem. It means we get to go less often, but it is at a cost. Keep your water consumption up.

Likewise, don't hurry your bowel motions. With enterocele it is critical that you never strain against the toilet when urinating or pooing. Straining will only make your enterocele come further down, which can constitute a medical emergency, with risk of the vaginal vault coming right out and bringing a big bulge of intestine with it. This gets quite complicated to manage and should be avoided at all costs!

No, you don't *have* to have another operation. You will choose what action to take, not the doctor, because you are the one who lives in your body. Listen to the doctor, by all means, but find out all you can, eg here, and decide for yourself with the aid of others you trust, what is going to be best for you in the longer term.

No matter whether you have a uterus or not your bladder will empty more effectively if it is positioned further forward, resting on your lower abdomen. This may be difficult for you, because the tissue that was removed with your uterus was helping to maintain your lumbar curve, which is essential to keep your pelvis tilted forward. If your pelvis tilts back your bladder will fall back into your vaginal space. Without the ligament and connective tissue that suspended your uterus your intestines will also be squashing down on your rectum and vagina, which will be contributing to your constipation because the pipes are kind of kinked down on each other.

Reestablishing your lumbar curve puts a bend in your torso, so your pelvic cavity faces backwards instead of straight down. This means that intrabdominal forces generated with breathing and moving press down on your badder and lower abdomen instead of down your vagina.

It is only by active effort to strengthen your body, particularly your upper body that you are going to be able to reinstate your lumbar curve and get the weight of your intestines and bladder to act further forward, over your pubic bones. Breathing deep with your diaphragm, rather than with your shoulders and rib muscles will also contribute to pushing your bladder forwards.

The other thing you could try is an external support garment to pull the crest of your pelvis together in the front. This will also tighten your pelvic floor muscles at the back.

Constipation is the enemy for all women with POP. Your intestines need to be light and flexible in order for you to be able to move them around, and so you can empty your bowel when it wants to empty.

I am not familiar with Movicol. I suggest you google it and find out how it works and if it is OK to keep using it, if it works. Diligent attention to your diet, having plenty of veges and fruit, not too much meat, and no processed foods will help your bowel health too.

Wholewoman techniques will probably not give you as good a response as it would if you still had your uterus, but things like your posture, clothing design, the way you use your body, what you eat and how you exercise will be things you can do, and you will get some benefit from them. Take it day by day.

Louise

Hi Anniegail - Maybe getting down on all fours would help with emptying. Over a basin, or in the shower.

Hi Anniegail,

I always feel special pangs when we hear from women with your story, because it was my story also. As I wrote about in Saving the Whole Woman, doctors have had full awareness since this bladder neck suspension surgery was first applied to women that it causes profound uterine prolapse. I refused further surgery and have been working to antevert my uterus ever since. It has moved forward significantly and also become much smaller post-menopause.

Louise and Surviving have given you good advice. I do hope you can avoid another operation, that your vaginal walls are long enough to fold down against intraabdominal pressure, and your sacral spine flexible enough to hold the posture without pain. As your vagina has been pulled forward with the Burch, and your uterus removed, there is a large volume of space at the back of your pelvis where your intestines have taken up residence. This mass of intestines being moved toward the pelvic outlet is called vaginal vault prolapse. Our hope is that by learning to hold your entire abdominal contents and your bladder forward you will be able to stabilize your symptoms. It is a beautiful, natural posture that pulls the abdominal wall up instead of in.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Wishing you well,

Christine

Hi Harbinger. Your question re: results is so hard to answer. You do have all your organs, right? If you've had hyst. or other surgeries, your results will be harder to achieve. I'm not sure if you've mentioned any surgical history or lack thereof.

So you're doing everything right, and not noticing a difference? Some women do notice a change fairly soon, but I don't know how much of that is just in the mind and attitude, a result of letting loose some of that fear and accepting that they have a condition that is manageable after all. I remember feeling better physically after I found this forum, before I even started doing a thing! Just knowing I still had a future was enough to start me on the road to success!

Aside from that, you really do have to have patience and work on this 24/7. I sometimes have to stop myself even now, discovering that momentary stress has tightened up my belly.

Some of the veterans on this forum have had major, major breakthroughs after months and months. Since it's a rest-of-your-life thing, just accept that you're in it for the long haul if you want to avoid surgery. The most successful still have bad days. Please don't become discouraged.

Hi Harbinger

How frustrating for you. I admit that I do have a raft of tools I use when my poo system misbehaves. After eight years I still use several different techniques at different times. I think having lots of tools is why I don't have a lot of problems. I must admit that getting used to incomplete evacuation is one of my tools. The feeling always goes away after about five minutes. I believe that the rectum does push all the stool back up again into the colon if it is not all evacuated, then it comes back down again about 20 minutes after more food. I don't see it as a problem if I have three poos an hour apart, then another batch later. I see it as my body's way of dealing with its dilemma. There is more than one way of skinning a cat.

The other factor is that a lot of women do experience prolapse for the first time, or a worsening of prolapse symptoms in the run up to menopause, when fat distribution starts to change and the vagina becomes more sensitive with waning oestrogen levels. This is just a fact of life, and could be perceived as normal, in the same way that our desire to BASE jump and catch lizards seems to just 'go away' as we grow up and get older.

It could also mean that your pelvic organ configuration is starting to change, as Surviving60 said. It sounds counter-intuitive, but sometimes things do get worse before they get better. I do hope it is this.

I would just ride it and keep working on techniques like firebreathing that help wind your pelvic organs up out of your pelvic cavity and help them to come forward. Also diaphragmatic breathing and maintaining a relaxed belly. These things can easily go out the window when we get stressed, but they are exactly the things we need to do at stressful times, both to remain relaxed and to turn off the stress hormones that can bind up out guts and worsen the problem.

Reee-laaaax.

Louise