vaginal dryness

Hi RedMoon

I am not surprised to read that you couldn't find consensus on this. Everybody's preferences are different, just as our vaginas and vulvas are different. I personally prefer Bliss Balm, which is a product that Christine sold some time ago. I was fortunate to be able to stock up on it before the supply was exhausted. It is based on coconut oil and beeswax. You can find the basic recipe in the video on making red clover balm at Christine's cottage. Just make a tiny batch and try it out.

Christine is hoping to market something very similar again in the near future. Just remember that oil based lubricants degrade rubber or latex, and silicon based lubricants degrade silicon products.

We don't aim to prescribe solutions on these Forums. We aim to give women resources for understanding their bodies, and personal experiences. We aim to build women's understanding of their bodies and help them to be able to make their own decisions. It is your body. You are in charge. When you try different things it will be useful if you post your experiences, whether successful or not. We can all learn from each other's mistakes, as well as from each other's successes.

Louise

I hesitate to write this as I find when someone posts a product others don't approve of it can be an all or nothing approach.
For me just coping with the demise of my health and not only the prolapses - rectal, bladder and uterus - I also have other severe health issues and to be honest my emotional health is top priority as I do not want to be depressed when everything can be overwhelming.
For now - and for the last six months I have been using Vagifem twice a week. It has made a great difference in the way I 'feel' about myself - and while I realise there are risks - they are something I will address once I feel more able to overcome and take more control of the other problems.
So for me - it is great - however - I know I need to research more and in time I may feel stronger about going off it and trying alternatives if necessary.
If anyone has a strong feeling about why Vagifem is not appropriate I am open to their thoughts - and it's nice to hear about other natural options also.

Please note I don't mean to endorse the product as such - just wanted to contribute to the 'options' that women have - but perhaps the forum would not consider it safe as such.
The very sudden and distinct prolapses for me happened at a terrible time when I almost lost both my mother and daughter within weeks of each other. The sudden 'drop' occurred at that time - which makes you wonder about the whole timing and emotional connection.
I struggled every day with it - particularly emotionally - and not a second passed without being aware of extreme discomfort that internal organs rubbing against each other and then having to splint with such fragile tissues .... the urogyn (who advised against surgery btw) said the vaginal tissue was extremely thin - this was making my awareness of everything very sensitised...I also had a very horrific delivery and have massive scarring which adds to the discomfort.
Since using this product I am at times unaware of the internal 'disposition' and I actually feel normal quite often. That is, until going to the toilet - but that is much gentler also as there is not the burning sensitivity of vaginal walls included in the package.
So it has enabled me to get the strength of mind to rise above the emotional anxiety while learning more. Obviously if there is a similar alternative which is natural (and safe - are they tested and guaranteed safe) I would certainly be keen to try.

Hi Takecare,

I've been looking back and can't find if you ever told us your age. I am assuming you are post-menopausal.

This is a very deep question with many factors to consider.

The obvious first question is, what is estrogen supplementation doing to help you feel less symptomatic? We know it is an anabolic steroid, that it increases cellular activity and build-up of target tissues. We also know that what we lose along with our natural estradiol at menopause is the vagina's ability to produce glycogen. Somehow, estradiol prompts the vaginal walls to produce glycogen. It is this glycogen that attracts and feeds beneficial organisms from the environment - just like sourdough bread and natural cheese are cultured. I guess supplemented estradiol must rev-up some level of this process as well.

The systemic risks of a small amount of vaginal estrogen are nowhere near what oral estrogens are. However, there is very good science indicating that every bit of estrogen you are placing vaginally is finding its way into your bloodstream. If you feel effects from the Vagifem, those are systemic effects. I don't think we have quality studies on the effects of these medications over a long period of time. What effects are they having on your endometrium, your urethra and your bowel? Not to mention your brain. Even the FDA has formulated its stance on estrogen: The smallest dose for the shortest amount of time required to alleviate symptoms.

It is an amazing thing that human females outlive their hormones. I feel women must have always felt the effects of this. For me, it happened at age 53, very soon after my last period. Intense vulva symptoms forced me to look far and wide for answers. What I have ended up with after years of experimentation are as even-keel lifestyle as I can possibly manage, red clover tea twice a day to provide phytoestrogen, a bit of vaginal honey twice a day (just like feeding sourdough bread!) and a dab of red clover/alfalfa salve around my urethra as a barrier to the many estrone metabolites being excreted in my urine. Certainly not as convenient as taking a pill! I do want to find someone to make tiny honey suppositories, though.

If you want to know more about how I really feel about supplemental estrogens (you asked :) ...

I believe these medications are a crime against nature. They are like the sorcerer's apprentice playing with fire. It is truly impossible to know the extent to which they effect the different systems in the body. Will you be better able to adjust to an aging system after you discontinue the drug? How does the drug affect all the hormone receptors and are these shifts easily reversible? There is so much we don't know. Hopefully you aren't having Vagifem-laced intercourse with your partner, as so many women do.

The enormous amount of estrogen coursing into waterways from water treatment plants has surfaced as a real and present danger to many species of fish, frogs, birds, etc. This is a crime that pharmaceutical companies should be prosecuted for because not enough (almost none) research has gone into helping women become comfortable without steroids.

I think the wise woman archetype exists because women had to figure out ways to remain healthy and comfortable (not necessarily sexually active) long after menopause. Women of yore probably had an easier time in certain respects because they were closer to nature and not exposed to the myriad of things that cause significant endocrine disruption today - plastics and artificial light predominantly.

One of my great hopes is that all women will find their way beyond artificial estrogen. For that to happen, routine hysterectomy and associated surgeries must become a thing of the past.

Christine

Thank you Christine for your comments. I am 51 and my last period was at 46 ...

The Vagifem has helped by making everything feel moist and lubricated - the tissues feel plumper and the vaginal wall a little more resistant to impeding organs. That's what it feels like anyway. It gave me back some of my life in terms of allowing me NOT to think about my situation constantly - when you are struggling with life and coping - you do weigh up the risks and depression is a huge concern for me - I know when I am heading for a vortex of sadness and I have to keep myself functioning so that I can work things out and slowly rebuild.

I am very open to looking at alternatives - because as I mentioned, the Vagifem has given me the time to come to terms with what is happening and taken some of the anxiety away - I also have felt more sexually aware, probably due to the lack of burning and pain from the vaginal atrophy.
I would like to know how Vagifem compares to taking the oral contraceptive pill and HRT? As I was on the pill in my younger days and my mother has taken HRT - I would like to know the degree of synthetic hormones in Vagifem versus oral pills.

I would like to try the red clover tea - perhaps Louise can recommend a retailer close to me?

When you say vaginal honey - could you please enlarge on this in terms of exactly what we should be looking for to buy and how to best use it?

Could you also please explain why we can't use a vaginal lubricant like KY every day to assist with comfort? Or anything else like that? i am assuming chemicals and irritants ...

It is amazing indeed that "women outlive their hormones". Just when I am discovering so much about myself, that I am more talented than I ever imagined, that I am wiser every day, I am discovering a new career and travelling internationally to celebrate and be acknowledged ... I am reminded constantly that I am post menopausal, have spinal issues, and POP. Life has a way of balancing itself. However for me to continue down a wonderful path of discovery in my work - I have to function emotionally. I will do everything to stay well balanced and healthy.

We didn't come here with spare parts ... if only - as you said - routine hysterectomy and surgeries were a last resort - then we would have more research into natural alternatives.

Hi Takecare,

I can so relate to your story. I, too, am finding my voice, new interests and clarity of mind, all the while my physical body is slowly breaking down. For me, there was such a huge change between 50 and 60. In a way it seems unfortunate - “youth is wasted on the young” and all that - but in other respects it seems perfect somehow.

Sorry for getting philosophical, but I have always wondered where great talents and gifts come from. How could it be merely the result of chance that people come into the world as child prodigies, wonderfully talented, or even with strong creative interests? This has to be one of the ways we can verify that life extends beyond the grave. Time and space expand infinitely from such a framework and what we do during the second half of life suddenly seems equally important for developing our “essence” - that which continues on with us. Unfortunately, there’s not much context for such a worldview within our culture, so it’s easy to feel cheated and depressed when it seems like life is passing us by. It gets really horrendous when we must face death - the pain of which is mostly centered around the issue that we have to go when everyone else gets to stay. The quality of our lives are deeply affected by the ways in which we view life and death.

How many times I have heard, “Just when I thought I had it all together, the cancer, my husband’s stroke, the accident, etc.” Life is so precious and we just never know what is in store for us. Please understand how much I empathize with your feelings, though. Add thinning hair and sagging skin to the list!

Topical estrogens carry less risk of untoward side effects than oral preparations because they avoid first-pass through the liver, and therefore produce fewer metabolites. Birth control pills have the potential of being terribly disruptive to hormonal balance, and the reason for the epidemic of vulvodynia. None are risk-free and each woman must weigh the risk/benefit ratio for herself.

I mean simply honey applied vaginally. It only takes a tiny bit and residual stickiness is easily removed with a warm washcloth. It may be entirely too much trouble for most modern women, so much so that I hesitate to even suggest it.

Google “KY Jelly ingredients” and find out for yourself about this product. Sodium hydroxide is lye, the stuff they put in drain cleaner, and benzoic acid is a highly controversial preservative. Parabens are another class of substances strongly linked to endocrine disruption and cancer.

What else have you experimented with to prevent and treat sadness? Essential oils and Bach flower remedies are used all over the world for this purpose. There is a great wise-woman in my neighborhood who makes personalized “rescue remedies” by matching plant qualities to personality characteristics. I have even read recently that incense - in particular frankincense - has anti-depressant actions.

I hope you feel better soon!

Christine

Christine I have had three bouts of serious depression in my life - mostly in my teens, early twenties and post natal. I was treated medically for those but after the final bout postnatally the anti depressants led me to the brink of suicide when all I needed was to be cared for and rested after a life threatening delivery. I was chronically tired from massive blood loss after complete uterine inversion - and the doctor decided I was depressed and convinced me the 'newer' anti depressants at the time did not have the side effects of old. They work for many but for me not at all. If I wasn't depressed before I went on them I certainly was after!
So now I know my body and mind so well - I see the signals coming - my prevention is first and foremost exercise - walking, getting amongst nature - in particular getting sunlight ... I do believe I have had this tendency from birth as my mother said I seemed melancholy at times - however while that may seem sad - I believe it was my gift. You see, the way I see depression for me is that it is my soul calling to me to take notice of something and go deeper within.

At the age of 49 I began studying art - it appears that even though I have no experience with art of any form - that it is innate for me - I realise I was always being prompted to explore it but as I have no artistic background or been exposed to any creativity it was very foreign to me. Now it feels like I'm home.
And just when I discover this all hell breaks loose with family members, my own health - and sitting seems to be the worst thing for POP and spinal issues so I am experimenting with different techniques.
So for now I am carefully using the Vagifem while I explore options. I realise it's all about balance - too many things to bear and everything comes tumbling down - I do believe wholeheartedly in naturaly therapy for depression - however I also believe we have the power inside of us to make a huge paradigm shift within our belief system if we desire it.

While I'm disappointed I'm 51 I'm also grateful I'm 51 - this is when it was meant to happen - life is a balancing act and something's gotta give (my favourite movie btw!) - I have a voice now - I am not the meek little girl who listened but never spoke ... I think people may wish I would be quiet now - but I want to show my daughter life goes on after menopause ... to great things.

Perhaps it's nature's way to say - hey ladies, stop looking after everyone else - time for you now ... take good care of the woman you are xxx

Hi TAkecare

i don't like the idea of having any unnecessary pharmaceutical oestrogen for the reasons Christine stated but when we break a leg, do we not encase it in plaster for two months to allow it to heal, even though plastering it for longer would cause muscle wastage, long term limitation of physical exercise etc? Do we not use a crutch or set of crutches for the same reasons? When we have the flu do we not take to our beds for a week, even though this act of being horizontal for a long period does nothing for our posture, gut function and maintaining general physical activity? When we have a gut wog do we not stop eating for a while, which would kill us if we continued for a month and a half?

I say, "If Vagifem does more for you indirectly as much as directly, then use it as a crutch, aware of its risks, and look for alternatives as soon as you can." It is really your choice, as is taking on board anything we read on this website or anywhere else. The only thing is that none of us is a doctor, and none of us will give you advice with an authoritive manner. This is the weapon/tool that doctors use to make their patients swallow nasty medicine (and have hysterectomies etc).

It has its place, but not here :-)

You won't be betraying the Sisterhood if you use Vagifem. It is a personal decision made by comparing the pros and cons.

Louise

Sorry redmoon for hijacking the thread - it's the way it can happen sometimes :))
As far as application of honey goes - what do you use? I would imagine a syringe - like that which is used to administer medications (without the needle part of course ... more like how you give medicine to animals) ...
Is that the case? Or is it the finger - eek would be messy.
I was thinking of having my own special jar and dipping the Vagifem applicators in and inserting ...
Don't quite know how else to do it.
Louise any advice for the red clover tea - best brand to buy and where?

Yes for now, it is a crutch - but I am researching and feeling much more optimistic about the future,

I have used honey on a few occasions to ease a slight burning sensation that I occasionally sense on left hand side only of vagina/rectocele. I have an eggcup of honey in my bedside able drawer, and just smear a bit inside the vulva area with my finger at night, or daytime if needed. No need for fancy applicator when we are born with fingers! And yes, it has helped - I don't notice the burning sensation so much, or perhaps I just have a better mindset after application: I've done something positive with a natural healer, so will just be content to let nature sort it out. (Oh, yes, and i do keep bees!!)

Are there other honey users out there?

That's right, Marigold - just a little bit (size of your little fingernail) rubbed around the walls - takes 2 seconds. It normalizes so much, all that the lactobacilli, etc. do to create moisture and healthy pH during our reproductive years. It is a marvel that we are actually made up of a zillion other organisms. Identity crisis anyone? ;-)

Marigold, I am thinking of the mess I would have in my bedside cabinet from fumbling around in the dark. I had the misfortune many years ago of spilling a 7lb tin of honey on the rear carpet of my car. I can tell you it was an interesting job cleaning the carpet. I didn't discover it until getting out of the car 3/4 hour later!!!!

However, it did spur me on to keep bees a couple of years later.

I think a jar with a lid might be a little safer than an egg cup. ;-)

Louise

I thought it had to go right up inside to work on the vaginal dryness ... not only the vulva and just inside.
Also using a finger would mean as you slide it in most would end up on the outside and entry?

If you keep the honey in the fridge and allow it to crystalise it would be solid and easier to handle as a solid.

Hi Ladies,

I'm a researcher at Stanford University looking to develop a new treatment for vaginal dryness. My team is conducting a survey to determine what type of treatment is desired, and I would appreciate 5-10 minutes of your time. The link to the survey is here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L528XPQ

Thank you very much for your help!

Kathryn

Thanks Kathryn. I did take the survey, but since I did not indicate I had a problem with dryness, it didn't ask me for any further feedback (not surprising). Perhaps others here who experience this will participate. - Surviving

Thank you very much - every response helps!