Estrogen

Great question.. i have also been wondering about estrogen. But im pretty young and no where near menopause so i am curious abouf the cream my ob prescribed.

Hi Octaviel,
I have been doing a LOT of reading on estrogens, but still have not come to a concise conclusion on the topic.
This is what I understand - our body has estrogen receptors in various parts of our body. The estrogens ou body produce or the phtoestrogen we consume plug into these receptors.
Phytoestrogens are thousands times weaker than the estrogens our body produce, so therefore if the weaker ones plug into the receptors it blocks the stronger ones from getting through.

So then we get the conundrum of how does the body get enough if the the weaker E blocks the stronger ones getting through.
The symptoms of peri menopause are not necessarily due to a lack of E, but can be more about an imbalance of the various hormones. Potentially too much E.
So on this subject i am a little confused as to what is best.

I am in the very beginning stage of peri menopause , and for me it is just a shortened cycle of 21 days....which was driving me a bit bonkers. So I introduced phytoestrogens to see what that did, and I have lengthened my cycle to 26 days. A good improvement I think, and the bleeding is less heavy.

Some books to read if you can get them from the library maybe;
The natural estrogen Diet & recipe book , by Lana Liew
Positive Health in Menopause, by Kate Fraser.
These have been really helpful in explaining things.
Will post more later, kids are calling
Lindy

From my perspective, the body is constantly trying to do three things: lower oxidative stress, lower inflammation, and lower estrogen. Generally speaking, we have tons of estrogen - estradiol when we are in our reproductive years and estrone post-menopause. Eliminating estrogen metabolites, some of which are strong and persistent, is how the body stays disease free. Avoid constipation (chronically constipated women have significantly higher rates of breast cancer) and eat a natural, whole diet. There is much more to the story, which I will get to in time. Supplemental estrogen is risky.

Hi Octaviel and anyone else who ponders these estrogen questions.
Octaviel as you know I have been reading a number of books about this, and have just about finished one that has been the best so far The New Natural Alternatives to HRT by Marilyn Glenville. She is a UK health/nutrition authority. I just discovered today that she has her own website, mostly for promoting a lot of her books etc. Anyway under the "menopause" tab she gives an explanation about phytoestrogens and their role in our body and with our hormones. Similar to how she explains it in the book. Her perspective is all about using nutrition to heal and nourish. I like what she says so far.
Have a look and see what you think...it might answer some of your questions www.marilynglenville.com
Regards
Lindy

Hi,
Thankyou Christine for your post on Estrogen May 24, 12.32 pm on the body's reaction to this & avoiding constipation.
I am so glad I found your Website.
Best Wishes Soul Sister

Hi All

I would explain why/how phytoestrogens work, thus:-

Oestrogens in the body, whether endogenous (made by the body) or exogenous (from outside the body) break down into metabolites after they have been processed. The metabolites are inflammatory. There are several types of oestrogen receptors in the body. The the beta oestrogen receptors are prevalent in the vulval tissue but not in breast tissue. They are in other places too, like skin. Phytoestrogens are very weak in action but very good at occupying these beta receptor parking spots in the vulval tissue and skin. The metabolites rush around in the blood stream looking for receptors, but if they are all occupied by phytoestrogens the metabolites just fly straight past, into the kidneys, then the bladder, and down the gurgler! Gone! Problem solved! If the metabolites can find open receptors they just remain in the body inflaming around the receptors, which is why perimenopausal women get dry, irritated vulva, and sometimes skin-crawling sensations.

Adding extra oestrogen in the form of oestrogen creams or tablets may alleviate menopausal discomfort but it only make more metabolites for the body to flush out. There are other parts to the story, eg the protective effects of endogenous progesterone prior to menopause, and the need for exogenous progesterone to oppose exogenous oestrogen in HRT during/after menopause; and the inflammatory effects of elevated luteinising hormone levels after menopause, but they are stories for later.

Next time you see a car park with a bicycle parked in every parking bay, and cars driving round and round, unable to find a place to park, you will be reminded of how phytoestrogens work.

Footnote: There are lots of alpha receptors in breast tissue. Phytoestrogens cannot hook onto these. HRT oestrogen metabolites can, and they park in breast tissue and cause tissue proliferation which can turn into breast cancer. The manufacturers of HRT know this. This is why they warn against HRT unopposed by progesterone if the woman has a family history of breast cancer. I think it is also why you get big boobs when you are on the Pill. Think about this if you or your daughter are using The Pill for many years.

Louise

Hi Louiseds,
Thankyou for your explanation - very clear & informative...
Best Wishes
Soul Sister

Louise- welcome back. let me tell you, this forum aint the same without you.

Im sure I will remember the phytoestrogens next time I see the common sight of a parking lot full of parked bicycles with annoyed cars driving around. :) So is it correct to conclude that we should try avoiding foods that metabolize to estrogen and try to consume more of the foods that will metabolize to phytestrogens? Overly simplicstic conclusion, I know but, if the one causes inflammation while the other douses the flames, then..?? What foods, other than Red clover tea, are good for that? Thanks.

Hi Louise,
Wow, you explained the whole phytoestrogen thing really well. That is everything I wanted to convey, but could not put it as succinctly as you just did.
Chickaboom - foods with phytoestrogen...soy (miso, tofu, beans) avoid the processed soy products, and ensure non GMO soy.
Also, chickpeas, lentils, alfalfa, aduki beans, kidney beans, celery, linseeds, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, oats, barley, rye, apples, fennel, parsley.....just a few to start you off :)
Lindy

Welcome back Louise and thank you for explaining how and why Phytoestrogens work. It helps to understand. Glad you are back!

Jaylove

I enjoy Almond Milk/Blue Diamond Brand, 40 Calories. I buy the refrigerated 1/2 gallon size. It has excellent nutrients and is low in calories.

I would say drink water, eat almonds and lots of green vegetables, and soya beans and other beans. Skip the processed drinks. However, if you must have 'milk', then just be mindful of what is in it. I prefer my milk from a cow, so I am not really the best source of info on non-dairy milks. I don't drink a lot of milk, but I do eat aged cheeses and farm cheeses, as opposed to processed cheeses, and I do eat quite a bit of unsweetened Greek style yoghurt.

Did you get it straight?

Phytoestrogens are made from plants like red clover, alfalfa, soya beans, etc. Phytoestrogens are weak, so their metabolites are weak and not so bad. We need more of these phytoestrogens to fill the parking spaces. They are good for our bodies.

Exogenous (coming into the body from outside) oestrogen that we swallow as HRT, and our own body's oestrogens are strong and their metabolites highly inflammatory. We have plenty of these being produced in parts of our bodies (other than ovaries) already without adding HRT. We want to keep these metabolites from parking so they will be excreted, instead of staying in our circulation and causing more trouble.

I'm still a bit confused about this (sorry - slow learner!). So what in detail changes at perimenopause and menopause? i.e. if estrogen is inflammatory then why do we get symptoms of inflammation when we produce (as I understand it) less estrogen at menopause? And why does HRT reduce those symptoms of inflammation?

(Happy to be directed to an external reference on this if someone knows a good one)

How many initials do you have after your name my friend? I have never believed in taking birth control pills and so I never did. That is why I chose not to use the estrogen creme. I had regular periods and perimenopause was a breeze for me. I did take Evening Primrose Oil all through peri and you count on your fingers how many, or should I say, few, hot flashes did I ever experience. Diet and exercise were always very important to me. Menopause did just that... menses paused, and never returned. Grateful again, Kiki

Curiosity, levels of Luteinising hormone rise permanently at menopause. LH is very inflammatory, which adds to the inflammatory mix. I still have to get my head around the detail. During our reproductive years, LH level is only high in the second half of the cycle. It is released by the corpus luteum after the follicle bursts and leaves a crater which turns into the corpus luteum. Second half of the cycle seems to be when most of the menstrual problems happen for women.

Kiki, I only have a very old Associate Diploma in Agriculture, and a more recent Associate Degree in Library Science. I also just finished Whole Woman teacher training, which is where a lot of the hormonal stuff and anatomical stuff came from. eg, My first encounter with red clover was back in 1975, when I learned about its damaging effects on ewe lambs whose mothers had grazed it heavily (ie 100% of their feed) during early pregnancy. That is called Clover Disease. It used to happen with other pasture legumes to a lesser degree. They have since bred out all the high oestrogen varieties of these species. The ewe lambs ended up with malformed reproductive organs and were less fertile than they should have been when they were finally mated as adults, and the normal ewes would become infertile if they grazed it during mating. It is kind of like The Pill for sheep, and rather defeated the purpose of grazing them on high quality pasture for increasing fertility! ;-)

I guess I am a bit of a sucker for new information, and have been all my life. It is all kind of blending together now I am older. It is quite interesting putting facts from different parts of my education together to come up with different approaches to problems.

Best wishes

Louise

As I read through and find so much of what I like and agree with and learn something new...which I totally enjoy most of all...I wish there was a little place to click "like this" next to a post!

Yes, it is nice when what you read resonates with what you already know about your body, instead of having to fight the urge to run in the opposite direction very quickly. As a bonus, it works pretty well.

You can go to Facebook and Like Whole Woman Village! It may change, though, now the Village no longer exists, except in our memories.

The Whole Woman on Facebook is not our Whole Woman.

Cheers

Louise

Thanks! I am off to Facebook to like the page!

Sorry, I meant the Whole Woman * Magazine* on Facebook is not us.

L

Hello! I apologize for not reading the responses to this topic yet, only skimming them (because of time), but I'd like to give a bit of my input on this.

The most interesting information I picked up on estrogen was while reading about progesterone. Progesterone is a single hormone, whereas estrogen is a class of hormones, consisting of I-don't-even-know-how-many. So where you need to obtain the right amount of the right estrogens, there is only one progesterone to worry about. Progesterone, when in excess, will create estrogen if it is needed. Or so I've heard, anyway, which would definitely make it a super useful hormone to work on!

Synthetic estrogen and progesterone sound really horrible, I don't think they've made any that are acceptable (yet?), so besides that you can only get plant varieties, which are also not the same exact thing in your body, but seem to actually work quite consistently. I disagree with hormones being used on livestock as it's not only an asinine thing to do for profits, but I've confirmed severe PMS symptoms after eating such meat, so I would never try to get any hormones through such treated animals, but I believe their natural hormones are just fine.

I had full relief from bloating, mood swings, and superheavy menstrual bleeding after drinking kombucha (the fermented probiotic tea) in the weeks prior to menstruation, and I think that may have been attributed to the cleansing of excess estrogen. However, I don't know much about helping your body create the right hormones on its own, which is the path I would like to take.

Found this older thread. Fascinating read about estrogen!