Meeting with urogyn (surgeon) on 12-12-12

Christine's body of work qualifies as much more than "an internet site". Just make up your mind that no decisions will be made until both you and your husband have read Saving the Whole Woman from cover to cover. If you fully adopt the posture, your organs will stabilize quite enough for you to put off any decisions. My improvement really started to escalate in the second year, and continues to this day. I'm thankful that there was no one pressuring me into surgery, so I don't envy your situation, Spammie. I don't even want to think where'd I be if I hadn't had the time for total immersion in this. I didn't discuss it with anyone, because I didn't want anyone's opinions. It was all me, and Whole Woman, and it turned my life completely around. I want every woman to have that. It's our constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. - Surviving

Dear Spamelah

I’m with your husband on the anti medical talk, but I do realise that adults love to play many versions of the social game as described by Eric Berne, “ain’t it awful”. And I don’t think we should ever forget that up until well late in the 19th Century doctors were still blood letting. Ok, so we have moved on considerably since then, but more to the point women who come on to this site share a genuine fear of surgery which
1.) Is done according to an incorrect muscular/skeletal orientation.
2.) Is painful and takes time to recover from.
3.) Which means they are never to lift anything heavy.
4.) Which may interfere with child bearing, self esteem and sexual intercourse.
5.) Which has used mesh which has been found to have corroded.
6.) Which is quite often botched. It is a difficult operation.
7.) Whose success rate is not a glowing triumph.
8.) Which some specialists quite openly explain will probably need to be repeated or added to in a further ten years.
9.) Whose word of mouth reputation is not always favourable. And,
10.) whose practitioners can sometimes use the expression “and while we are in there we might as well…”.
11.) And which may prove ultimately inappropriate as biomechanics comes into its own.

In fact, an alien observer would wonder why anyone with intelligence under these circumstances would fail to look around for an alternative. Uterine prolapse is not for the most part life threatening and therefore the sufferer does have time to look around for a suitable fix. Why shouldn’t she look for the best she can find?

A medical worker is being quite reasonable when talking in terms of the dreaded internet site. The facts are that people do and can say anything they want in the freedom of anonymity. I have not found this to be a particular problem on this site, but wariness is the mark of intelligence. Most women are willing to take just so much advice and then they will make their own independent decisions.

For those who surgery has proven just the ticket, you probably won’t hear much from. For those it has failed, you will need to go to other sites to hear about their sorry plight.

However, for the women attracted to this site the alternative offered by Christine Kent makes sense to them. It is a self management tool whose success and set backs are logged personally by the individual. Certainly, not a quick fix.

As for success rates, there are women here most weeks who say their condition has improved. It is not touted as a cure, but as something that improves things to make it possible to resume an active life without pain and stress.

As to bearing down, if your prolapse is stage 3 or 4 maybe the uro will be happy to examine you while you stand. Is the flipping a real problem? I have never used a pessary. I was under the impression that pessaries do not work for uterine prolapse. I was also under the impression that pelvic organ operations were developed because pessaries did not work and maybe did damage; they certainly do not encourage the muscles to resume full support. But that would be something your husband could verify perhaps. Use him as a resource. In fact, where we are wrong, it would be wonderful to be corrected in all our interests. I have wondered why no qualified doctor/specialist has taken on the bother. They can’t all be too busy can they?

I think it more than worth your while finding out specifically which operation and why that particular operation would be indicated for you.

Best wishes, Fab

1) Wow S60, me too. I didn't discuss with or ask permission of anyone before embarking on this approach. I. Just. Did. It. And it worked. All I have to do some four years later is stand and walk. No skin off my nose, no noticible prolapse.

2) Nice (true) points, fab.

3) You do realize that you will never be able to lift over 15 pounds post vaginal surgery, right Spammie?

4) I am a nurse. My hospital is a sort of destination for vaginal nip/tucks ... and second ... and third "fresher -uppers". I have one or two of these patients a month. They are no better off than me. In fact, I dare say I am better off than them, if I can judge by their confidences in me. I can lift. Sex is no problem. I do not have incontinence (a co-worker of mine who had a "bladder special", same age as me, 35, confided she needs poise pads). I am not facing follow up surgery.

4) Hello. Prolapse is not an "organ problem". It is an orthopedic problem. The organs ain't broke -- your skeleton is misaligned. If you dislocated your shoulder, the treatment is not amputation of the arm -- it is skeletal realignment. Why is the solution to "dislocated" pelvic organs to "amputate" them? Realign the skeleton.

5) Nothing in this world (in my humble opinion) can be successful when only attempted in half-measures. You either don't want surgery or you do. You can't half commit to either approach and expect a satisfactory result. You have to pick one and go full measure. Best wishes in whatever path you choose.

Well make sure you have your husband look at the success rates of the surgery. My own OBGYN stated that I would need surgery again with in 10 years. My sister's sister-in-law had surgery and with in one year's time she was worse. She has not see a doctor again for fear they would even make it worse. She is not on the books as a failure because she will not go back to see the doctor. I am scared to death of both staying like this and surgery.....but I figure I am going to try WW and see what happens. I am having my sister-in-law look at the success rates she is a nurse. I see all of the lawsuits over the mesh. Bad mirror my doctor never told me that I would not be able to lift more than 15lbs after surgery.

Nora Coffey says that some of the angriest women who contact the HERS Foundation after a hysterectomy, are nurses and doctors’ wives. They just can’t understand how those closest to them could have given them such bad advice. Or else they just couldn’t or wouldn’t stand up to them.

Repeat surgeries are more than just repeats. They are less and less effective every time. You can only keep removing tissue up to a point, and then there is not much that can be done to make things better, even temporarily.

Spamelah, I’m glad you are going into your appointment armed with information. Yet I’m not sure what you hope to learn. That you have prolapse? That there are surgeries people are dying to perform on you? Please be your own best counsel in this. As Christine says, we women will end these surgeries if we stop showing up to have them! - Surviving

Oh Spammie, I do feel for you, and hope you find some peace of mind. Wanting everything to go away is a dangerous mindset, because it isn't going to all go away. So if someone tells you that surgery will make it all go away, you might say, Awesome, let's do it! Have realistic expectations. Maintaining your prolapse while remaining intact and getting on happily with your life, beats all the alternatives. - Surviving

That's why we're here, let it all hang out, girl! - Surviving

I would venture to say that many are not anti-surgery in general, but specifically anti-surgery-that-does-not-work. I have begun to wonder why there seems to be such a different attitude around these pelvic surgeries than with other kinds. For example, I have a knee issue, I have a cyst in the bottom of my femur bone, a result of years of bad alignment of the knee. When it is acting up it causes me pain with every step. However, through rehab I learned that if I keep inflammation out of my knee and maintain scrupulous alignment then nothing presses on it and it doesn't bother me. When I saw an orthopedic surgeon about it, he was extremely happy to see that my rehab attempts had achieved these results and encouraged me to keep on as I was going. He was hesitant to perform surgery, he said that the resulting scar tissue could cause me as much or even more pain or problems in its own way (and not to ignore the inherent complications that are always present with surgery, eg infection etc). Surgery would be a last resort if I become unable to maintain my mobility.

So how is POP any different? If through WW a woman can achieve stabilization of her condition and a removal or reduction of symptoms, is that not the first thing that should always be attempted? My own doctor thought so, even though she was limited in her knowledge of what could be done for that, she certainly discouraged me from the obgyn route, saying that all they would offer me was a hysterectomy and that I didn't want to go there because then I would just have a different set of problems.

Is it because these are women's issues? I don't really want to go into a feminist rant here but the complications that can come from these pelvic surgeries seem to get dismissed quite easily. Can't lift anything moderately heavy (for the rest of your life!), sex can be affected, mesh erosion causing pain and infection, surgery will eventually fail anyway and need to be done again etc. I don't really see how these "results" are a successful intervention myself. Try telling some man that is what he gets to look forward to and see how he reacts.

Ok, enough ranting from me.

Hi HockeyMom,

Thanks for this post. I might add that it is a very balanced and valid perspective that (1) prolapse is more an orthopedic than a gynecologic disorder, and (2) that when these disorders are treated with gynecologic surgeries, all of which are based on anatomical misconception, the results are often disastrous.

It is also true that gynecology and the FDA have known for a long time that the surgeries do not work. Perhaps we can give them the benefit of the doubt for not quite understanding how women can stabilize and improve symptoms through posture (the *true* pelvic organ support system that was never described in anatomical texts). However, the WW anatomical perspective has been widely known for a decade. Still, the surgeries continue unabated. I talked to a young mommy two days ago who was told to do kegels and if that didn't work, then hysterectomy was advised. Such blatant ignorance is simply unacceptable at this point in time. Many, many women continue to undergo mesh surgeries, which are well-known to be completely injurious. The FDA huffs and puffs, but no real change happens. Only "more studies are needed". So, the university medical systems are wound up again to advertise and recruit surgical subjects.

Other than the HERS Foundation, I don't know of another prominent organization besides WW that is standing up for women in an appropriate way - which means telling it like it is!! The others teaching about the "pelvic floor" take a middle-of-the-road stance (certainly the "Kegel Queen", who looks like she has just joined us). Yet, there is no middle of the road when a cliff runs on the other side of the dotted white line.

Just say NO! and please help other women do the same.

Christine

One thought. It can be really difficult to rely on one exam to the next for grading your prolapse. The entire system is very dynamic and can move up and down all day long, and all month long depending on where you are in your cycle of hormones. The best judge of how your prolapse is progressing is you. You can do the self exam weekly for a few months and journal or simply journal your symptoms to see the up and down. Also, if you don't have the same person doing the exam, you don't have that inner tester reliability thing going on. So, take the results with a grain of salt.
However, if you intuitively feel like things are worse, and they tell you they are not, well, you can go ahead and have a party if you want, but you are probably more *right* about how you are feeling then they are- as educated as they are....
but, if you think you have other things going on (hernia, etc) don't just settle on a prolapse diagnosis. Ask for more diagnostic testing!

Yeah!!! Mine is too!!

Hysterectomy to address cystocele? Hard to believe that's even legal! As for friend #2, I see hyst in her future too, if she lets that doctor open her up again. Right on Spam, for helping to spread the word. I too feel sad for your friends; I hope they will take heed and educate themselves on their options, as you have been doing so diligently. Too bad they didn't do it earlier. - Surviving

"Sorry sir, your penis was in the way of this bulge we were trying to work on, so we had to remove it, hope you don't mind!"

1) The value of leaving the ovaries is highly overrated, since as often as not, they cease to function because the nerves and blood supply have been cut off. 2) Vaginal vault prolapse - very common after hyst. 3) Doctors don't tell us stuff!

Hmmmm....maybe they'll "forget" to call you next time they're hanging out.....

Fab, you did such a great job of articulating my thoughts about POP surgery in your post! Thank you.

Keep up the good work. You do have to keep it up forever now that's why it is important for the posture to become second nature to you. Just a, probably unneeded, warning not to ease off and rest on your laurels as they say. In that aspect a club would be both good for you and for others. It keeps it all in mind and pushes into as yet uncharted waters.

Really good news. Thanks for letting us know.

best wishes, Fab

wonderful news! Wow...that was quick for these results, yes? thanks for posting and good luck with the hernia. love and best wishes to you.

Wow Spamelah so glad you are doing so good. Keeps me moving forward. I have to watch the whole video this weekend (might try tonight) to make sure I am moving and sitting right. Just looked at parts of the dvd's so far.
So glad I have all of you.

Hi spam - Although WW posture is good for every woman, your skeptical post-hyst-and-repairs friend could not expect to see the same kind of improvements as you are seeing. That's why WW tries so hard to get the message out to women, BEFORE they start down that path from which there is no return. Christine has never minced words on this topic. SO much relies upon the round ligaments of the uterus, and preserving the natural dynamics of everything inside your pelvis. Post-hyst women especially, sometimes experience back pains from WW posture because their skeletons have already started to compensate. However, if she could adopt it, she might have improvement in spine and hips over time. Just don't build false hopes using your results as an example. And don't you be bummed if you're back to "stage 2" tomorrow. Stages or grades don't mean a heck of a lot in the long run. Things are shifting all the time. You know that you aren't "cured" but you have discovered the art of prolapse management and you have seen that it works. Keep it up, Spammie!! - Surviving

Hi Spammie

That sounds like a good idea, but you would probably have to call it something else, because "Whole Woman" is protected by Trademark. You could refer women to the website and the Forums though. I will ask Lanny to comment on this.

Louise

Give it loving pats every night. ;-)

But seriously, learning to breathe with your diaphragm really goes with allowing your belly to relax and expand. Wearing clothes that will allow it to expand, and will also hide it from site until you are OK with it, are two things you could do. We breathe in and out many times every minute. Each inhalation is an opportunity to relax your belly.

Ya know what p***s me off? All the effort I expended for all those years, training my belly to hold itself in! What a waste!

A few wardrobe adjustments were such a tiny price to pay for this incredible freedom........ I never liked how my belly looked even when I was holding it in. Not to mention what that stance was doing to the rest of my body. I never felt comfortable, and now I feel regal. - Surviving

Love that description, surviving! I have had a belly that sticks out from gaining too much weight with my kids, and was embarrassed and then had to just get used to it. Now I can be proud of it, because it stands for something even more wonderful in the bigger picture of life: a whole woman body in all her glory!!

I love tunics. They hide a multitude of sins and loose knitted pants. Away with the jeans. I always like summer because I can wear my jersey knit crops and long tanks or short-sleeve tunics. Winter usually brought in the restricting jeans with zippers, etc. No more. I am sending them to goodwill and getting more knit pants and tunics. One small problem is that I have a long inseam and have trouble buying pants that are long enough. Guess it is time to bring out the sewing machine again. I used to make lots of my clothes but haven't in some time. Now would be a good time to rediscover something that I once enjoyed. I also agree that the posture is very regal looking. It is much better than the slumping over that I was used to doing. Still a bit sore in the back and hips though.

Maybe we are not meant to have tight, hard, flat tummies. If you look at pictures or paintings of women from the past, they had rounded hips and bellies which was considered sexy back then
And, maybe you organs are finally up over your pubic bone like they were always meant to be? What do I know, our more experienced ladies would probably have the answers.
I just know I am starting to feel good with a long way to go yet, and very hopeful, and finally starting to have some pride in my body for the first time in my life. Sorry if a little preachy.

Gracefully is correct, and if you click over to the video page and watch Christine's first video, it gives (among other things) an interesting historical overview of women and bodies and clothing. - Surviving

hi all,

interesting thread. the journey from being invested in trusting the medical system to self-reliance is not an easy one. it is hard to let go of reliance on the wise, caring and knowledgeable doctor. while the medical system works miracles in some cases, the history of callous destruction to women cannot be ignored. perhaps it takes listening to the hundreds of heart breaking stories that we have heard when women call us for help, it makes it easier to walk away from the medical system realizing that they are neither wise, necessarily caring or knowledgeable. and it's not the people who are the problem. they have worked long and hard to become doctors. it is the system itself that has co-opted and corrupted health and the healing process due to the irresistible pull of huge financial payoff for drugs and surgeries. the people in the system in many ways are as much victims as the patients.

ultimately, if women (and men) take the journey of self-reliance and self-care seriously, it becomes clear that there are irreconcilable differences between the medical approach and the whole woman approach to women's health. i know better than anyone the extent to which christine has struggled to be sure that everything she has proposed is backed up with solid studies and research. but you cannot have one foot on the boat and one on the dock indefinitely. sooner or later you have to commit. and yes, making that commitment can be hard and scary. but the purpose of the forum is for us to help those who are on the journey to self-reliance trust themselves, trust their bodies and validate for themselves that the whole woman body of work is solid, legitimate and backed with hard science.

committing to the whole woman way also means letting go of a digital view of life and embracing life as an analog experience. by digital i mean binary. everything on your computer is controlled by ones and zeros. that's why it's called digital technology. something is on or off. it is comforting to look at life as working or not, fixed or broken. but real life isn't like that. between the black of broken and white of fixed are an infinity of shades of gray. there is continuous movement back and forth between the polar opposites. prolapse is the embodiment of analog reality. the condition fluctuates constantly. the aim therefore is not "fixed". the aim is that the average of the fluctuations is moving towards better and away from worse into a zone, which on the whole is acceptable for quality of life.

accomplishing this requires being more awake to how you sit, stand, lift, carry, move, eat, eliminate. to me, this is the real challenge of the whole woman journey. it requires us to be more awake. i say "us" because no partnered or married women suffers prolapse alone. you and your partner are on the journey together.

going through periods of questioning and doubts is also a non-digital part of the life experience. the forum exists, in part to be there during those "dark nights of the soul" so you never have to feel alone. but the work of the whole woman journey is, in the final analysis, a journey of moving your center of gravity from those systems (be they medical, educational, spiritual, government or any other), which we have been taught and acculturated to trust and rely on, to inside ourselves. so that we look objectively at ideas, information and advice we receive, we scrutinize, assess and weigh according to our own experience, knowledge and intuition, refusing to surrender control of our destinies to anyone else, for any reason unless it is done with full intentionality.

to me, christine's work is powerful, not just because she has spent decades verifying and validating its accuracy, but because she does not ask you to take anything on faith. she does not ask you to surrender your trust in the medical system and replace it with trust in the whole woman "system". no, she says "here's the data. do the work and validate it for yourself."

end of editorial.

regarding whole woman coffee clubs, we can't really authorize the use of the whole woman name for such things without making the whole process very structured and formal to protect the whole woman brand, which is defeating the purpose as i understand it. as we can see in this thread, these conversations can be difficult for the reasons discussed above. once you have made the journey to self-reliance, your worldview has changed. the assumptions underlying how you think about health and medicine have changed. in some ways, when you speak of these things with others who have not made the same journey, you are using the same words but you are not speaking the same language. sowing our seeds of knowledge and experience should be done where the ground is reasonably fertile and there is at least some hope that those seeds will have a chance to germinate and take root.

there is no question that the prolapse violence propagates because the flow of information is dampened by our cultural aversion to discussing the condition. we always encourage women to talk to their friends and female relatives. forewarned is forearmed. but it is critical that we recognize that we are really suggesting to women that they explore and alternate life, an alternate reality. one in which they will need to let go of the "safety" of believing in a system which has sold itself to us as having our best interests at heart, but in fact, has only its own interests at heart.

I agree, Aging, and if you see paintings of Michaelangelo, the women are not sticks and they have bellies. Look at the older actresses like Jane Russell. They were round and not painfully thin. I think that came on in the sixties with the model named "Twiggy." I too am beginning to feel like myself again after several weeks of gloom and feeling of loss. I still wake up in the morning sometimes and don't like remembering the reality of it but I am getting better. Hope you keep improving as well. And I don't think you sound preachy at all.

Spammie,

Sounds to me like you may have a gut bacteria imbalance. Just like our kids with autism, we too can have issues with keeping the right balance. I would recommend you try a good quality probiotic (eating yogurt is not helpful) for a few weeks and see if you have some improvement.

Lanny, your words have definitely struck a chord with me. As one of those who never, since day one of my discovery, had any desire, interest or need to take my prolapse to any doctor, it is hard sometimes to give guidance to the members of this forum. Not every woman can do this alone, but most of us who have been here awhile realize that no doctor is going to give you what you need to manage your prolapse. I have lost a lot of faith in the medical profession simply because (and I think it was Louise who pointed this out the other day) if medicine is so powerless to help women in this area, so totally and completely wrong, what else are they screwing up and how much damage might they be doing to other segments of the population?

I become impatient at times with those women who have been here long enough to see that it works, and yet still insist upon keeping “one foot on the dock and one in the boat.” I become weary of trying to respond to the latest bit of advice that they are getting from their doctor or PT.

So ladies, those of you on here who for some CRAZY reason still haven’t figured out that Christine is right and the doctors are wrong, cut me some slack if I can’t get too worked up about whatever pearls of wisdom your doc is dispensing this week. You know who you are!! Newbies, I’m not including you in my rant. I love all you ladies, I really really really do - Surviving

Yes, good stuff Lanny. And yes, surviving I too knew instinctively that operations on prolapses was not for me but then I had watched my mother’s and had not liked what I saw. And if I had had a different life, I may very well have gone for one as my prolapse was incapacitating and I had not discovered Christine’s alternative.

But hey, it’s ingrained in our lifestyle when sick or in pain you go to your doctor. You believe what he says and do it, for the placebo effect is a very important part of medicine. And, in fact we are right to rely on our doctors. They do save lives, mend bones, ease pain, cure disease and even help couples conceive who otherwise would not, just to mention a few things. We have a right to be proud of our western medicine’s achievements since the time of Lister and his discovery of antiseptic surgery. To break with our modern tradition of trust built on good results in contrast to our earlier (pre 1865) reliance on someone who claims to know is a big ask. That we should cling to a given even though we are gaining success from a suspected new age claptrap is not silly. But yes, with the evidence piling up, if we cannot believe our own eyes, and work it through mentally to make some sense then we need to go back to our doctor.

And when it comes to POP that is what we on this forum are asking, but it also does not mean that we should then automatically suspect all medical knowledge and practice.

When we are in a reasonably safe position we can afford to be skeptical, when it is an emergency situation (in this case lifestyle threatening as opposed to life threatening) we surrender to the guy who is confident he can fix it and who has graduated from our institutions which in turn have accreditation, or has built a reputation based on success. Sometimes this system goes wrong, but mostly it goes right.

That the medical fraternity is locked into a paradigm in the case of pelvic organ prolapse which Christine has discovered is inappropriate and harmful is nothing new for a medical profession that believed in blood letting and miasma, and gentlemen did not wash their hands before operations or examinations or after autopsies for hundreds of years. For the medical profession to pursue an anatomical model which is incorrect for we have been rightly squeamish about experimenting on live humans is perhaps forgivable. In the face of modern technology and Christine’s research we may have a right to be angry and impatient, at the medical fraternity’s reluctance to change, but that is in the nature of things.

New paradigms aren’t something to introduce quickly no matter what branch of knowledge you are talking about; there are too many reputations at stake, too much status to lose, too many questions to be answered spurious or otherwise, and too much energy to be expended in defending one’s research.

best wishes, Fab

thanks for the kind words. i wrote the post because it was clear to me in this thread that the underlying process of embracing the whole woman work needed clarification. as a dedicated whole woman moderator, you invest hours of your life supporting and helping other women. of course it is frustrating when you see women who, sometimes after years, don't seem to "get" it or who backslide.

the pull of surrender to the doctor, the church, or just the conventional is very powerful. does this mean we shouldn't have faith, trust, seek guidance or information from the institutions that surround us in every society? of course not. what it does mean is that we become educated, judicious and thoughtful consumers of advice, information and insight from whoever we seek it from and for whatever reason. this is the real and difficult work of the whole woman way.

it is easy to be judgmental of others. but life is a process of reaching up to those who have gone before us and have useful lessons for us to learn and reaching down to those who are following along behind us and have yet to learn, understand or accomplish what we have. compassion is appropriate. sometimes tough love is appropriate too. but our job as leaders (and those of us who understand the whole woman journey are leaders) is to be very clear that we have done our homework and put a stake in the ground, saying "this i know because i have validated it to my satisfaction".

being a leader means standing for something. putting a stake in the ground inevitably creates polarization. some will be magnetically drawn to that position. others will be magnetically repelled. that is the nature of leadership and it takes courage to put a stake in the ground knowing that you are going to alienate some people, that not everyone can be mollified or satisfied by a position taken.

but, when the preponderance of the evidence shows clearly that the traditional approach is wrong, when we have validated this point of view for ourselves, then we have no real choice but to take a position if we are to see ourselves to be leaders. not everyone is cut out for leadership. the pain of alienation of those who cannot resonate with a position taken may be too intense. there is no judgment here. each of us has to decide in our own hearts, "what do i stand for?"

my hope in my prior post was that we could all be clearer about our work on the forum. the whole woman way is much deeper than prolapse. it is about becoming autonomous human beings who live intentionally and who pick and choose carefully and intentionally to what reality they choose to subscribe.

Digital vs analog. Yes, I like that. It is a good way of illustrating how 'grey' our world is. We are all the same, but unique all different. We have had different life experiences. There are many shades of grey, but they are all still grey. Things are rarely right or wrong. Right for one woman is wrong for another. We do all have to find our own spot. If a woman ends up astride a fence she is not going to get as much benefit from WW work as she would if she jumped right over, even for 12 months to give it all she has. Sometimes getting off the fence takes a while. I did eventually dive off the 3 metre board at the pool, but I never did go off the 5 metre board or higher. Moving further with my diving was not for me, but managing my own POPs is for me.

Putting a gyn in charge of fixing your prolapse is not the same as calling in the plumber to mend a mains pressure water leak. The plumber can have several goes at fixing the leak, and when fixed the pipe will be better than it was previously. You can't say that about a gyn!

It could be the secret women's business coffee club. Curiosity and a warning "you will not be comfortable" would possibly be a draw.

I would just call it a TMI women's group. They will soon ask, if they want to know. ;-)