Progression of prolapse

Ontarian, what kind of exercises are you doing at PT sessions, and where exactly is your PT pressing on you? PT's concept of the "pelvic floor" is a soft tissue hammock underneath the organs, holding them in. Not exactly the case, as any student of WW will recognize. - Surviving

When women first discover prolapse, in their panic they sometimes tend to feel that the more different things they try, the better. Conventional PT holds many beliefs about the "pelvic floor" that are contrary to what we have learned here, and what we find works best. PT is big on kegels and they adhere to the traditional misrepresentation of female pelvic anatomy/orientation. Those of us who have had the best success here are those who did not try to straddle the fence between these two approaches. WW requires total immersion, you cannot just dabble in it. That being said, if keeping a foot in both worlds is something you need or want to do, then maybe some of the other folks here can help you better evaluate what is happening. I've never seen any medical professional of any kind regarding my 'celes, but that is my personal choice. - Surviving

Ontarian, I wonder if the work the physio is doing is doing any damage? I cannot see how it could. The physio doesn't seem to have told you which muscles she is trying to loosen. It would be helpful to your understanding if she would tell you, and show you on a diagram.

If it is the normal pelvic floor muscles, then loosening them will help them to extend them to their full length. Unless they can stretch to their full length it will not be possible to get movement in the sacroiliac joints that will allow the 'drumskin' of the pelvic floor to increase in area, making the pelvic floor muscles contract in a healthy way, and for the PF to become wider, and longer, which needs to happen for full nutation, and for the orientation of the pelvic floor to become more vertical, so it stabilises the pelvic organs from the back, rather than holding them up from underneath.

Do you understand what I am saying, or do I need to explain further? It is complicated.

If it is pelvic floor muscles, I say "go for it!"

Loiuise

Ontarian, I fear that we have not answered your question, which was, why does it feel like you're getting worse.

When I first got Saving the Whole Woman, it relaxed my worries and I started reading and studying. I was working on incorporating posture, but it was hard! Then life intervened (health problems in the family) and to a great extent WW went on the back burner. After awhile my prolapse felt like it was getting worse. I realized it was time to “put up or shut up” and I cranked up my efforts about 100%. It paid off. In the second year, I started to feel it and get it.

There is a difference between doing WW and dabbling in it. Christine gives us everything we need, nothing we don’t need, and explains every assertion she makes. If someone was “doing” WW but was continuing at the same time to use conventional PT, to me that is dabbling. It is diluting the WW work, which requires a greater degree of immersion, mind and body. It makes me ask if there is something in WW teachings or practice that has not yet been fully grasped.

That’s my opinion, and it will seem extreme to some. But in light of what this program has given to me, I can’t feel any other way. - Surviving

I am sorry to hear that you are not feeling better. I do think this is one of those moments of medical dilemna. Our doctors tell us the success rates with PTs and of course we jump at the opportunity. Some of them are wonderful women specializing in womens issues and really believe what they are doing and they are doing it out of dedication. The unfortunate thing here is that they have not learned what we here have learned.....the "real" alignment of our bodies....what really is the pelvic floor and how do we make ourselves better. I believe that the stretches you are doing will be good for you (hard to tell with only a word description) but hamstrings and hip etc should be good. However, I think you are in the first stage....your PT will be having you kegel very soon (most likely). I believe that your goal should be to put the WW posture into your every waking moment. Is it overwhelming? Yes it is. But soon it will not be, especially when you start to notice a few signs of improvement. If you must go to the PT, then analyze well, with help from Christine's book and dvds, before you agree to do anything. Be sure that every exercise is supporting your number one rule ... ask yourself.....is it compatible with WW? Best wishes to you.

Dear Ontarian
When my prolapse protrudes when I am lying down I find it is usually due to having some form of inflammation of the organ and/or intestines or similarly an irritated bowel or sigmoid column or rectum. They have swollen and that plus the organ’s contents or hyperactivity appear to be actually pushing the organ down, where there is more room for them into your vagina.

Perhaps you can look at this aspect. We have talked about these things on other threads. And of course the solution is to fix the irritation as soon as you can. But the situation does get better even if in some cases as with some belly bugs it may take two weeks. But the point is it does get better. The organs when less inflamed will become more comfortable and will return to their true positions when lying down.

I really don’t get what this physio is saying about tight muscles. When you lift a heavy item with both hands up to or past your shoulders, your biceps tighten, your triceps are relaxed, when you put down that item, your triceps tighten and your biceps relax. This is what gives you strength to lift and put down. If you tighten your biceps and triceps at the same time, you weaken your strength because the two muscles are working against each other.

In ‘Saving the Whole Woman’ on pages 15 and 16 Christine talks about nutation and counternutation of the pelvic diaphragm (notice not floor, Christine describes it as a wall not floor). In standing and seated postures, the pelvis is most stable when nutated i.e. in WWposture and this creates the conditions for pelvic organ support. Counternutation causes the lumbar curve to flatten. And when you walk just like the biceps/triceps movement mentioned above, the weight bearing side of the pelvis is nutated, while the other side is loosened for the flexibility to swing the opposite leg forward. In this way the muscles are strengthened which is one of the main aims of Whole Woman posture, its main one being of course to return the organs up and over the pelvic bone (which is the true pelvic floor).

If it is muscle tension that the physio is talking about then you might check out Progressive muscle relaxation (PMR). It is an anxiety-reduction technique first introduced by American physician Edmund Jacobson in the 1930s. When you follow it you tense and relax each major part of your body starting from your head to and working to your toes. Which makes more sense to me instead of concentrating on just one part of your anatomy.

Personally speaking, from what you describe, I would not be going to your physio.

Best wishes, Fab

This might be what your physio is on about.

http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/article.php?id=13515

in which case it is interesting and gives you some background from which to ask questions of your physio.

cheers, Fab

Thanks for that link Fab, looks pertinent to me. I've had sacroilliac discomfort ever since being pregnant the first time. And now prolapse as well. Always wondered if they were connected. Will look into it.

So how do we feel about this tennis ball trick? It sounds rather painful.

I'm having a little trouble connecting the dots here. He never mentions prolapse and I sure can't imagine how sitting on a tennis ball would be good for any of us. - Surviving

my partner massages my sacrem and this helps so much..I'm visitng my parents and have no one to massage me. I've been doing self massage but it's so much better when he does it...it really relieves the pain of my muscles clamping up due to the stress from the rectocele.

spiritwoman that stress affects your muscles like that and that massage helps. When I have tummy problems, a self -massage certainly helps and likewise any soreness in muscles.

No surviving, I am not particularly sure about the tight/tense muscle and stretching concept as doing things with muscles requires care as you would have seen from my earlier post. But the link seemed to shed a little light on the angle from which Ontarian's physio was possibly looking at the problem which may have explained a few things to her as to the methods her physio used. Also a bit of a warning there about chaperons and mandatory licenses to perform certain massages.

I share with curiosity and louised a sacroilliac connection. And certainly have become more convinced of the interstitial cystitis link to the inflammation which many of us experience.

As to the tennis ball, I am not sure how one would go with that. I think the author was just passing that on as a curiosity which may have potential. After all to a man such a revelation from a woman would be somewhat fascinating.

I didn't have a tennis ball, so tried an apple, it was rather painful. I'd rather eat it.

cheers, Fab

Apologies Surviving, yes the article did not mention prolapse, but it did mention various pelvic organ disorders such as incontinence and dysparuenia. It just connected my two conditions in my mind again, which I have not done for a while. And I wondered if I improved one I might improve the other. Trigger point therapy has been mentioned quite a lot on these forums but I have never had the curiosity (belying my name I know!) to find out exactly what it is. So is it that kneeding out tight muscles that PTs do?

After reading that article I clicked on a few others, including one on the piriformis muscle, and it said that a tight piriformis often refers as pain in the sacroiliac joint. The stretch that seems to relieve my discomfort is the eye of the needle one (when you lie on your back, bend one knee across your body and lift the other knee up by linking your hands), which I believe is a piriformis stretch. And then I remembered when I first had this in pregnancy I saw a PT and she taught my partner to massage my bottom (which was stretching out the piriformis I guess?). Anyway all grist for the mill and I might try getting my partner to do that massage again and see if it makes difference.

And then I thought if this muscle is overly tight then maybe my pelvic "floor" ones are as well. Not sure if you can work that out by self diagnosis though. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Edit: I also found a more POP friendly version of the piriformis stretch: http://www.charlottesocceracademy.com/docs/fitness/A%20Common%20Mistake%20in%20Stretching%20the%20Hip%20Piriformis%20Muscle.pdf