Considering 3rd & a little scared.


Hi there...I will keep this as short as I can. I have a rectocele, cystocele, uterine & an internal rectal prolapse as the nice little cherry on top. This all happened after the birth of my first baby at age 25. I managed to stabilise a little after that birth. I have since had a second baby (11 months pp) ..and I am now 28. Things are pretty bad. I had a second vaginal birth because I felt confident I could. Bad decision for me. Things are wayyy worse. I cannot poop without "completing" it with an irrigation system. Gah. So I am seeing a surgeon who says that I can get this repaired because it is affecting my quality of life. I have been doing whole woman posture for 2.5 years so I am not a newbie to the posture & although I find it helps me feel more comfortable, it has not stopped it from getting worse & interfering with pooping issues! I do think this is because of the intussesception (spelling?). If I only had vaginal prolapses I am pretty sure I would be better by now. Despite all this I am desperate for another baby. My surgeon says this is ok as long as I feel I can manage. Which sometimes I feel I can & other times I think I must be completely bonkers...!! Which I probably am. Anyway, my question is, has anyone had a further pregnancy while dealing with a internal rectal prolapse? I am scared I will not be able to look after my children properly & worried about feeling so awful that I can't cope. Can the posture help me anymore than it has already? I am afraid I am a lost cause. Thank you for reading :)

Im sorry I don't have the answers you are looking for, only questions. I too, have issues where I can only evacuate with my bidet. What do you do when you travel?

Hi. It's called a mini qufora. I just take it with me. It's available here in the uk on the nhs.

Thank you. I have been at a loss for how to travel with this condition. My son is having a destination wedding in about 3 months and I have been dreading and crying over what to do.

No one here can say exactly what your results might be if you continue diligently with the Whole Woman work. But the fact is that there is no surgical cure for prolapse - that is why we do this work and why we try so hard every day to keep women off the operating table....some surgeries fail right away, others not for awhile, but ultimately you will most likely find yourself just needing more surgery. And each time, it will be less helpful. If you are seeing a surgeon, then you have probably already made a decision and the surgeon is going to support that. If you feel the vaginal birth of your second made everything much worse, then you can discuss c-section (a procedure which most definitely does not prevent prolapse, and comes with risks and problems of its own, but in your case it might be an alternative to a vaginal birth that you are fearful of).

Christine gives us many tools with which to manage this. I hope you are using them all, every day. It's a big job, an important one. I hope you can find your way to a decision you are comfortable with. - Surviving

Thank you for your response surviving :) Yes I guess I have made my decision. Mainly because I cannot poop without the use of irrigation & that has only got worse unfortunately. So I guess if there is an operation which might actually get me some quality of life back (even if it's only for 5-10 years) I will take that chance. I think my bowel situation is slightly more complex & I was hoping someone on here might jump on & say "yes I have that & I have seen improvements!" because that would make me feel a little bit less inclined towards surgery. Anyway, I guess I will be looking at a c section & I am very aware of the risks involved. But I'd rather not have my bowel prolapse even more than it has whilst caring for 3 young children. I have a bladder & uterine prolapse too which are very well managed with the posture! So it's a real shame my bowel isn't playing ball. I just wish I knew somebody or could speak to somebody who is dealing with this & still going ahead with completing their family. My head is a bit all over the place. Wondering if I am making a mistake going for a 3rd. I feel very scared, but the thought of having to say I am done is scaring me even more! Sorry for rambling x

C bell, I don't know anything much about your condition, and you haven't mentioned any procedure by name. So I'll just end by saying, surgery in one area will most likely have an effect on the dynamics of the rest of your pelvic organs, and it might be better not to assume that the bladder and uterine dynamics will be preserved unchanged. I would suggest that you gather all the information you can from this surgeon, about what it is he wants to do, and schedule a consult with Christine. - Surviving

I have been viewing this site for a few years but this is my first comment. I am concerned about C bell rushing into surgery. Before I found this website I had bladder sling surgery, which went well, and as such a few years later I had rectocele surgery. Although it took care of my bowel movement issues, it did make my uterine prolapse much worse. Now in retrospect, I am questioning my choices to have either of the surgeries as my quality of life is not and never will be the same. The rectocele surgery was very difficult. It took me close to a year to fully recover. It made some permenant changes that I wish I would have been advised about. I am sorry I did not find this website before I made my choices. Do not rush into surgery without doing research.

Hi, thanks for your responses. Yep, definitely not rushing into surgery... but if this continues to worsen I may not have a choice. I have been doing my research for some time now & I'm still not done researching. I had so hoped that other methods would help me but to no avail & quite frankly I'm living half a life. I do have a rectocele & cystocele also, but a traditional repair would not fix my issues because my bowel is basically turning itself inside out. I would hope that the surgery would change the dynamic of my other organs because there would be no point otherwise. The surgery is called ventral rectopexy, it lifts the rectum, bladder & uterus back into their anatomical positions. But my real issue is wanting another baby. I am feeling quite depressed about the thought that I might not be able to. Hoping someone will jump on & relate in some way! :)

Is your surgeon suggesting this take place before or after another baby?

C bell, I think the only thing we can do here on the Forum is to try and keep this thread going, for maximum exposure to our participants. You can also use the search box. - Surviving

Thanks surviving. He is suggesting I complete my family before the surgery. Anyway he recommends a c section to prevent further bowel damage which I am certain there would be otherwise. Which in itself is frustrating because I had a beautiful 2nd birth & would love to do it again! But I do totally agree with him in that sense that a complicated vaginal birth could be a "disaster" in his words! I am only 28 & I wanted a big family but this stupid thing is complicating that dream :( I am just so scared of not being able to cope with these symptoms during pregnancy or, I dread to think, worsened symptoms! But then again maybe I am just being a wuss!

Rectopexy is a horrible operation. I can hardly believe it’s still being performed legally. l’ve talked to many women over the years who had this surgery and are spending the rest of their lives digging feces out of their rectum by hand - day in and day out.

The surgery causes what is often referred to as “high constipation”, which means the urge to have a bowel movement begins, and then immediately stops. Normal defecation becomes impossible - and there is no remedy. The following article states this happens in 50% of cases, but the numbers are probably much higher.

“Despite generally excellent results with regard to the correction of the prolapsed rectum, approximately half of patients continue to complain of severe constipation following the procedure.”

The reason it is still being performed is because it supposedly “cures” intussusception. Never mind that it permanently paralyses the rectum. The nerves that feed the rectum are extremely delicate, as they come directly off the roots of the spinal cord. As the article suggests, people often opt for an ostomy bag eventually. A little daily enema while you heal doesn’t seem so horrible in the scheme of things.

Natural childbirth does not cause intussusception or rectal prolapse. The bladder and rectum are actually protected and pushed into their normal positions as the baby moves through the vagina. I wouldn't hesitate having another baby, but would be sure not to birth on my back.

I would look at anything that disrupts the natural flora of the gut, because it is actually friendly bacteria that develop and maintain the micro architecture of the bowel. Although not a formal study, here is a little fact sheet suggesting that over 25% of physicians believe the antibiotic Cipro is “highly suspected” of causing rectal prolapse.

You are very young and may not realize that it can take many years to reverse significant damage to body systems. “All health begins in the gut” is true in so many ways. I would be looking at every aspect of my diet and lifestyle, while being extremely grateful, patient, and willing to baby my body for as long as it takes.


I'm not sure that it was your intention...but I am now scared to death!! I do not think my body can handle another pregnancy & birth, I am not sure I would want to go through it all again if there is not some light at the end of the tunnel. It's not just a daily enema...I cannot lift my children without having an increase in symptoms & pain. I am not active like I once was. And my life feels very on hold. Perhaps I didn't explain fully in my first post. So would you still recommend posture for this condition? I am fearful of my future if this operation is "horrible"....what are my options then? Not willing to live like this :( I have read very positive stories of the operation & I was feeling quite hopeful.

I cannot advise you to have the operation or not, and have no way of knowing what might be causing your condition. It certainly sounds like another natural birth may be risky for you, given your beliefs. Medscape is about as conventional and conservative as medical publications get, and their estimation of a 50% intractable constipation outcome reflect really terrible odds. All we can do is wish you the best.

On re-reading your original posts I see you are talking about a new rendition of traditional rectopexy:

“Studies that used VR (ventral rectopexy) without posterior rectal mobilization reported a greater reduction in postoperative constipation and lower rates of new-onset constipation compared with patients with posterior rectal mobilization.”

The multi-study statistic they quote for new-onset constipation (which traditionally meant permanent, intractable constipation) is 14.4%, still a terribly significant risk.

This is the classic sacrocolpopexy, but they wrap the rectum into the suspension to the anterior ligament of the spine. Interestingly, it is commented upon in the orthopedic literature that the anterior ligament is highly subject to aging and becoming brittle. It is a deep and complicated surgery, but who is to say whether you would be better off in the long run?

Hi joecodmom,
I am very curious to know what is a miniqufora and what is it used for?

Mahalo and Aloha

Yes it is the new laparoscopic operation. My surgeon says the success rate is 75%. He said that the most likely complication is that things stay the same. I do not think they would be performing such an operation if half of the patients were damaged by it. I am just trying to make myself better & if that means taking the risk with surgery, I will. I do not think it is fair for you to try & scare me with statistics & especially ones you have found online, when clearly I am trying all I can naturally to help myself. This forum is clearly not conductive for my mental health & it feels like a very negative environment. So I think I will take my leave. Thank you to surviving for trying to help.

Regarding this or any surgery, it is counted as a success if you are still doing OK at your follow-up visit. It can fail next year without affecting those stats. The point is that doctors don't give you the real picture of your chances for a better future. And laparoscopic just means you won't have such a big scar - that's great but it's not really the issue here.

Given our mission here at WW, you can't expect encouragement for any surgical procedure, much less one that none of us has had. I'm sorry we weren't more help. And we do wish you the best possible outcome. - Surviving

My intent is not to scare you. It is and always has been a seriously risky operation and the statistics come from peer-reviewed colorectal literature. It is the social art of certain surgical specialties to down play the risks, and it is uncritical allegiance to surgeons that keeps patients blind to the risks. When talking about something as devastating as loss of bowel function, even 1/2 of 1 percent should be considered very serious odds.

At any rate, the entire medical concept of rectal prolapse needs reexamination. The rectum is tightly adhered to the sacral vault. Even if these connections were “torn” or “stretched” during childbirth, why would that necessarily result in intussusception? Logic would suggest just the opposite: that abnormally strong internal pressures confronting an immovable outer muscular rectum would slowly peel off the lining of the rectum and blow it toward the anus.

So, Christine, do you think your posture will actually help this condition? Perhaps instead of giving me a science lesson on my rectum & discouraging me from surgery, you could try to point me in the direction of some alternative treatment? Because believe me, I am trying. I don't care what caused my rectum to prolapse. Why would I dwell on something like that. I just want to improve it enough so that I can poop & live a normal life. I think unless somebody actually has this condition, they don't really have the right to assume living without surgery is actually going to be better for them. I have to dig stool out of my rectum already. So what are your suggestions, do the posture, eat well & hope for the best? Is that it? Instead of creating a negative environment & scaremongering people about could give some positive suggestions...! Now THAT would be a forum I would like to be a part of!

This forum isn't actually a medical consulting service. It's just a community of prolapsed women trying to help each other with the Whole Woman work. Christine has provided a ton of information already, and you might consider taking this discussion to a private consult with her, if you wish to continue. I don't think the forum has anything more to offer you at this point, and attacking Christine isn't making you any friends here! - Surviving

I am not attacking Christine. But I honestly was very upset by her first post to me. Which focused solely on telling me what a terrible operation I am in for, if I do go for it. That's not what I sought out for here. I just wanted some support & encouragement about having another baby with this condition. I am sure it wasn't Christine's intention to do that & perhaps it is just her way. But it cannot be denied that I was taken aback by that post & I expected more from the creator of this ww work, something that I might add, I do believe helps people. I have been doing the posture for 3 years & still continue to do so :) anyway, I do not want to carry on with this discussion, except maybe to change the subject. I do not want to upset anyone, but I cannot pretend I didn't find her manner disrespectfu & upsetting. I have been very upset for days & all my negative feelings about my condition have come back. I am not blaming Christine, I'm sure it's merely my anxiety about this, but it definitely didn't help me.

Mini Qufora - you can Google this. It's on YouTube. - Surviving

I'm sorry heavenly flower I realised I didn't reply. I got it on the nhs, but I'm sure you can buy it through their website. I find suppositories unhelpful & this takes some getting used to but it does work well.

Thank you C bell for responding do you find it helpful in using the qufora? I do have a lot of problems with constipation not only form my prolapse but with all the medications I take, and it does get pretty frustrating when I don't have a bowel movement on a regular basis and then I feel like it get stuck because of my prolapse, and really their is no way I can see to get it going so I will certainly be ordering one for me soon Thank you.
I do eat a lot of fruits and vegetables but even that at times doesn't seem to work and then when it does I'm the Queen for the day on the toilet most of the day (smile) and stuck in the house....
You have a wonderful day. I ordered Christine's streamline videos I hope I can start using it soon to help with the constipation problem.
Mahalo and Aloha,

Hi Christine, How are you? it's been a while since I've been on the Forum, but I have a question about the mini qufora, I'm seriously thinking about ordering one just as a back up to the steamline videos I just ordered for my constipation problem, I'm hoping I won't need to use it after I'm able to see the videos but just in case. my granddaughter will be graduating from College next May and I will not miss it for the world but I just want to prepare myself so that everything will runs smoothly.
Mahalo and ALoha

Hey there C bell. I just wanted to say that you are not alone and to offer my support if nothing else for what you are going through. I have had 2 vaginal deliveries and have some degree of intussusception and as a consequence I can no longer fully evacuate without some kind of 'assistance'. I completely understand your misery, it is awful and the temptation of surgery is overwhelming some days. As for your wish to have a 3rd child, this is such a tough decision for you, one I obviously cant help you with except to tell you that both physically and emotionally, I feel myself that I cant afford to have a 3rd even if I wanted one. I feel blessed with 2 healthy young ones and feel that for me this is enough. But that is me and of course only you can know what is right for you. Just remember to take care of yourself, you sound like you deserve it and that you are looking at all of this very logically, weighing up risks/quality of life etc in a very rational way and doing what you can with the posture. Well done to you and I truly hope your journey gets easier from here x

Hi C bell,
Although I do not have all the prolapse issues you have, I do have some, I am 31, and I am also considering/intimidated about the concept of having a third baby. So I feel for you on that end. I also recently made a similar post on the subject of having another baby, perhaps you can find it on here and read some of the responses. You might find them encouraging, most of them positive. :)

And I would just encourage you to continue educating yourself as much as you can. Although you might not have liked Christine's advice or the way she said it (believe me, I too have been offended on this forum by other members... i think there's just a loss of communication and intention when not having in person communication), but nonetheless she has accumulated a vast range of stories and experiences from other women, and I think her caution is worth looking in to regarding the surgery. I personally thoroughly trust her dedication to this issue. So far I have not found another person that has educated herself so much in regards to all avenues related to prolapse. My plan is to go to the conference this year and learn as much as I can.

Not sure what to tell you (not sure even what to tell myself at this point!) but perhaps you could just give it some more time before you decide to have #3? And see if anything improves? wait a year or two? I know it's hard to do, but I am noticing very slow positive changes in a wide variety of areas as my body continues postpartum (i am at one year) and I nurse less.. and of course doing WW posture. 6 months ago looked a lot different! And I was more freaked out, so maybe this can be encouraging. If your condition significantly improved in another 6 months, could you live with it then? Everyone has their breaking point, and maybe your already there... but if not, perhaps some more time would be the least invasive option for the mean time.

Wish you well and all the best

Hi, C-bell, did you do the mesh rectopexy? If you haven't think twice. I had it by supposedly the inventor who has a big website advertising it. It was the most horrible mutilating experience in my life, it aggravated all the problems that I had - pain, obstruction, incontinence and prolapse. It surpassed the obstetritian's abilities to ruin my pelvic floor. Deeply regret it, it costs me tons of money together with the many subsequent surgeries to try to correct all the damage it did. I wished I could go back in time and never done this horrible thing.
Concerning future pregnancy - I had one after the first delivery damaged my pelvic floor. The second pregnancy was uneventful and I requested a C-section which was a breeze, most marvelous experience, fully enjoyed the baby, it was painless and there was no further damage to my pelvic floor.

I just want to let you know C Bell that I have almost exactly what you've described in your post. I understand the frustration and pain involved. It's difficult to live life this way and very debilitating. I'm sorry you're dealing with this too. I cannot offer you any advice as I've had my condition for 5 years now and am only worse. I'm trying the whole woman posture, and jiggling but I'm no better. I am also seeing a homeopath as well. I'd try just about anything to fix this, except surgery. I'm very worried surgery will only leave me worse off in the long run. Christine, perhaps there is extra advice you have for those of us dealing with our intestines prolapsing in? Is there anything more than the posture? Is there hope for those of us who have to manually extract stool from our rectum?

Buy colon irrigation kits from Lifesavers. Stool comes right out.

Thanks for the tip notomedhrectopexy. Is there a certain kind that works best?
I was also hoping Christine would reply to my past as well. The colon irrigation kits are a way to deal with the problem, but they won't fix it. I've seen such little to no change since starting whole woman. Christine, is there something extra that those of us who have intussusception can do to help? It seems so hard to reach this area of the body with posture and to heal it as well. It's barely livable now and I'm just 39. I cant imagine how hard d it will be 30 years from now.


Are you still around? If so, I'd love to get an update on your intuss. I'm 40 and had my 1st and only baby in jan. 16. Like you, I want the problem FIXED!! I don't want to put bandaids on the problem. I'm so tired of doing battle with myself. Ever since I was 9, I've been forced to deal with one medical issue or another. I've had several surgeries/procedures....only to still hurt. These issues can be very debilitating and it totally screws up your life. It's unfair to have so many problems that affect your appearance at a young age and you struggle ALL your life trying to overcome said problems so you actually look the way you feel? No matter what you try and do to better yourself....whether seeking employment or the right doc, it all blows up in your face! Im sick of maintaining the illnesses...I want them GONE!!

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