I had a thought :-O

are good or reading, i find my eyes get too tired to keep them open if i read or do puzzles, i got brain training for christmas and that works great too, this might not help with you waking back up but its just what i do so thought id say it:-}

I think your recent stress over the worsening POP is playing a big part in the sleep troubles. I do the same thing. If I'm stressed about something I wake early hours and toss and turn and then just before the alarm goes off to get my son up for school I could fall into a deep sleep.

I did have a herbal rememdy for helping with sleep and I cannot remember what is was called. It was a tincture and you put a few drops in water and it relaxes the body. Will try and find it and let you know.

I got Big Brain Academy and I quite often play that just before going to sleep on my sons Nintendo DS. The concentration makes my eyes feel really heavy. I must admit I do have a TV in the bedroom and quite often watch that to help me sleep so long as I don't watch anything stressful. I remember watching a horror movie one night and before I knew it a panic attack was creeping up on me - the movie was called Creep or something like that. NOT a good choice!

as a fellow insomniac, I can say that after a few sleepless nights my whole body aches. I have fibromyalgia which flares up if I don't get quality sleep. and I'm an extremely anxious person which doesn't really help me get that quality sleep.
after years of playing with different ideas, I've finally hit on something that works for me. well, two things. first, before bed (or if I wake in the middle of the night) I jot down all the things I'm worried about and plan to worry about them tomorrow.
then I remind myself that the worst thing that can happen is that I die. and really, that's not so bad (no, I'm not suicidal, just not afraid of death itself). and then I can sleep.
I realize that this probably won't work for anyone else, but my point is that you too, can figure out how to trick your brain into letting you sleep.
its worth trying, your health depends on it

Valerian and for some Scullcap (gives some people over-active dreams).
There are others too like Passionflower, but Valerian is the big gun, it
can, after large doses give you a thickish head the next morn.. So start
with a small dose and see how it agrees with you. We all have varying
tolerances for substances... kwim ?
Often a cup of Rooibos is enough for me.
High and maintained levels of Stress releases cortisol among other substances
(with any luck someone smart will pipe in with accurate details) I believe which is
in part disruptive to sleep. The physiology of stress - I mentioned this a while ago.
I think it's fascinating, motivating and empowering to explore this side of
our health... it shakes up so many aspects and attitudes that are taken for
granted and unquestioned... We assume our reality is often outside of us and
that we are victims of circumstances... when really everything is interpreted through
our minds... Hhhhhm. I've been really absorbed with these ideas lately. The
power of choice.
In Christines' post about donations, she wrote of everything having a front side
and a back side. Something I knew , but not really thought about until framed by
Those words. My DH and I spoke about the front and back side of "Socialized medicine"
this morning. It's an eye opening exercise to think this way.
Good luck sleeping.
Zelda

I'm a sleeper. It takes me about 10 seconds to go to sleep, and I stay asleep till about 3:00 which is when I start thinking about getting up.

BUT: during long periods of perimenopause, which can last 15 years ladies, I didn't sleep AT ALL for months on end. I ended up taking Klonipin, which poisoned me, but for a while it did put me to sleep - for a few hours. I did everything I could to sleep; I believe my problem was hormones just like those sleepless nights before a period. Toss and turn, review the past, present and future, hot, cold, hot, cold, up, down. I drank whole bottles of wine, brandy, gin, you name it - nothing worked. Sound familiar?

Then when crazypause ended, I returned to my wonderful sleep routine.

I know from my husband's NEVER sleeping ever in his life, that the difference in our routines is phenomenal. I go to bed at the same time every night - about 8:30. I bathe, take my vitamins with a cup of soy milk, and 3 Advil for the arthritis. I pray, read for about 15 minutes, and I'm out till 3:00. If I stay in bed till 4:00, 4:30, it's like sleeping in.

My husband never does the same thing two nights in a row. Sometimes he's in bed by 9:00; other times it's 11:30. Sometimes he eats in the evening, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he watches TV, sometimes he reads, and always he doesn't sleep. His mind goes nuts and he wanders in his dreams.

My husband is Attention Deficit which contributes to his non sleep. Ritalin will help this, but I'm not an advocate. I'm hyperactive, and I know that HAs sleep well.

Now having written this, Dr. Judy thinks non sleep is probably a hormone problem. If you're sure it's not, try establishing the same routine every night for a month. It might be dull as hell but interestingly it works.

Blessings,

Judy

I love your insights, Judy. you always have another piece to the puzzle.
when I found a sleep-solution, it happened around the time that my periods became regular. Its impossible to know what caused what, or what worked, as I was doing a major overhaul (diet, posture, exercise, emotional and spiritual work too). but I think you may be on to something, and really, its all connected, isn't it?
It feels like the answer to so many problems is all about finding balance and a state of equilibrium. as one piece falls into place the others follow. I've noticed the reverse as well, when one system is stressed and failing, other problems crop up too.
so interesting.

it really helps.

Hi,

It’s late here but I’m wide awake after having had a remarkable string of luck researching my book today. My successful day is contrasted, however, with the fortified perspective that the part of the medical system overseeing women’s health needs to be replaced. It is so blind and corrupt that I do not believe it is capable of evolving to serve our needs. Forget doctor-bashing. The problem is intractable at the system-level.

In response to the earlier comments about the back and the front, at the personality level I think it’s more constructive to consider that we all have 50% assets and 50% liabilities in the way we function in relationships. And, like Freud and Jung suggested, there are probably three levels of personality that we move back and forth between on a moment-by-moment basis depending on how much stress we’re encountering in our lives.

When things are going well and we’re happy and content, we present our positive traits to the world – those developed by simply being how we like to be in the world. Add a little stress and we move down a level to draw on those parts of our personality that were socialized by our parents and teachers. Heap on more stress and we’re driven further into the core of our personality, which contains the hard-wired traits that let us respond to situations with all our most natural strengths (assets). Push us into dis-stress and we manifest the flip side of those traits, which are equally strong but also equally negative.

I can’t even think about the back and front of medicine socialized because the system itself is so very broken. In my mind there are certainly assets there. If I broke my leg or had a stroke I would want to go the hospital. But the liabilities are so great that I would need to have an advocate with me at all times to see that the hospital did not send me home in worse condition than I arrived. In thinking about it, the same can be said for every doctor treatment I’ve ever had. One unnecessarily took my tonsils; two gave me unnecessary episiotomies; one gave unnecessary thyroid medication; one sewed my bladder to my abdominal wall; one took unnecessary and painful biopsies; two ordered unnecessary ultrasounds; many have ordered unnecessary X-rays; and – oh yes – one probably saved my life by stopping a raging UTI with antibiotics. Antibiotics have been one of medical science’s (relatively few) great achievements.

Goodnight!

Christine

Hey Christine, whoa back! Did I miss something? Back and front of medicine? When did you post it, and what was the thread called?

Interesting theory, this 50% assets and 50% liabilities thing. Is having your life saved cancelled out by an unnecessary episiotomy? How do you quantify it? I think there are very few things that don't have a positive and a negative side, but they are often skewed strongly in one direction.

The problem is not having enough information when called on to assent to a procedure, or not being given a choice. There often seems to be a fair bit of pressure to just go along with medical advice. Also things that seem innocuous at the time can turn out after a few years research to be downright dangerous. It is a bit of a lottery really. Choices about treatment have turned into the risk management processes that they have always been, really.

Nothing in life is risk free.

Cheers

Louise

Hi Louise,

I’ve been holding Ohsawa’s koan in my head all day, and as Zelda said, it’s a powerful exercise. You can find where I first mentioned it in the MEMYSELFANDI thread in the Prolapse forum. Zelda brought it up again here.

I think the take-away from the teaching is this: keep the front and back as small as possible. This would translate as humbleness and transparency.

If you think about Western medicine, the back certainly is as big as the front! It’s a huge, impressive system that we send our best and brightest to. When one doc runs out of answers we have specialists, more tests, more medicine, more surgery, and when all that fails…more studies. And then there’s the other side: power, money, and the total dismantling of the art of healing.

Could a system of medicine be humble and transparent? I think most certainly so. First of all, it would be based on truly objective science. If answers weren’t forthcoming doctors would say so and give the highest palliative care known, instead of trying to cure with toxic and damaging treatments based on incomplete studies performed by pharmaceutical companies and egoistic physicians. Hospitals would look more like greenhouses where people were truly nurtured back to health. As it stands now, a more spirit-killing environment couldn’t be designed than that of the average hospital room.

Cheers,

Christine

Humbleness and transparency. Thank you for your focused wisdom Christine,
I'm having epiphany.
Now how to apply it with the latest "emotional thug" I'm bumping into.
I feel like I am falling off the radar. More and more men look through
me, when I've always been used to getting checked out. I don't feel that I've
exploited that and didn't find it overly meaningful for my ego... what is more
coming up is that it parallels my insecurities that POP has shocked me with,
and I know my husband has much temptation all around. Now I'm left wondering
the depth of his "attachment " for lack of better words, to me.

I live in a college town, and apparently my H has Not fallen off the radar,
and a string of little insignificant things have me so angry at men in general.
I hate that they are ruled by their visual attraction to women. I hate it most
thoroughly. my dear Dad was the worst of the worst. My first H not much better.
This one QUICKLY had someone in his bed when we split -and we weren't even divorced.
I have the biggest rawest open nerve here. I drive by the @#!#!'s house all too often,
there's just so many little things that trigger this pain for me. I mostly bury my
reaction and try to send it on it's way. But it's really not going away, and I would really
like this pain to not create itself into being and help drive him away.

For some strange reason this is all colliding and I'm just mad as hell. I mean like
truly. Shallow Bastards. Every last one I've really known. My H has gotten the
barest outline and I'm thinking I'd best stay away from him until I get a grip on this
lest I run my mouth, and he gets even more evidence that I'm a nutter.
What to do and how to do it ? I've been stuck on this one for a while.
Zelda

Thanks for that one Zelda, that's the stuff I used when my anxiety/panic was really bad and I couldn't get to sleep. I used very small amounts, only a few drops in water, and it works really quickly. You might want to give that a try Sue. I kept it beside the bed with a glass of water.

Anita

Ah yes, I agree.

L

It sounds like you are struggling with insecurities around the break-up you went through with your husband. I know YOU asked him to come back but he came back and would not have done had been unsure or not wanted to. He must love you and want to be with YOU.

Men don't seem to do well on their own and easily fall into another womans arms for comfort and support. Women tend to rough it out on their own and get over one relationship before embarking on another. My ex broke my heart, the relationship was a struggle but the one thing I did not expect was to find out was that he had another woman. "She listened and cared and supported him when he needed it" - vomit! More like she fancied the pants off him and wanted him for herself! The thing is they did stay together after our breakup but she was left insecure thinking he would always come back to me and it split them up in the end and he did come back. I told him to get stuffed and that I had moved on and he wasn't that irresistable.

I never met her nor did I ever know where she lived but it sounds like you have a constant reminder. Its hard because you need to bury that memory and move on from it, it sounds like it is eating away at you. I know that is easier said than done. Have you thought about talking this over calmly with H?

I have pondering over this post for awhile and am really struggling with the best words to help you. I can feel your anger and I can completely understand where it comes from.

and on the outside it would seem so. But I often wonder
at the mere convenience, as opposed to continuing a divorce that
would have ruined us all. I think there was a certain male - practicality
in getting back with me. And he didn't exactly fly back into my arms he didn't
want to hurt her blah blah. And for some time he was actually debating.
only a male can be this "practical".
My life experiences have REALLY shown men to be self-serving bas.....
He's ever so much better I tell myself but... I guess I'm thinking it's a matter of time ?
And I'm at a place where I NEED a generous Partner. I'm trying to accept
that he is not a demonstrative person. Plus I'm not joking that I think he's got some
PTSD going on and is scared of being too close to me on top of it.

I watched Rachel Ray (and the PBS Parrot program) yesterday. Two couples, both
women had failing Kidneys. The opposite's husband were the donors. I
just sat there and cried. I see my H sticking with me yes, but out of duty not deep affection and LOVE.
It hasn't been pretty, and I get the feeling my "rawness" is inconvenient and annoying.
for him. Like I'm doing it to him. He asked today if I just HAD to have a problem? I can't tell you
how hurtful and shaming it felt. Oi. And you know what ? Seems kinda self-serving to me.
Whew ! I feel better just vomiting that all up. it's like I just can't digest this.
Thanks for being there - I truly appreciate it. I don't feel so lonely - Ya know ?
Zelda

... yes they are. I find my H's ignorance over this POP issue infuriating. He has not made the slightest attempt to even try to understand or learn more about what is going on with me. He just gets frustrated that I don't do all that I used to and when I mention its a bad day I get the rolling eyes, I feel like a problem and a burden. I have come to realise that he will not be the man I would like him to be so I have to accept who he is as much as it angers me sometimes.

If the shoe were on the other foot I would be there supporting him in the best way I could but when its us they seem to bury their head in the sand and think of themselves. Not all men are like this, I realise that, but I have yet to meet one.

Insensitive comments like "do you just have to have a problem?" sounds all too familiar.

Hang in there Zelda, I hope you come out the other side soon so you can find a place of happiness and yeah I know!

Anita

ask nicely for what you want and make no excuses at all POP or not. Men prefer the direct route. Honey I'd like to take a bath. Will you please arrange dinner and gather up the laundry?
done.

Whine and go on and on and all you get is hurtful sighs and rolling eyes.

I've been trying to figure out how to say that.
My man's a good guy, but he really doesn't want to hear about the prolapse. I have a hunch it makes him queasy. But that's ok, when I tell him I need to get off my feet and ask him to do x,y, or z, he's (usually) happy to oblige and then gets to feel like he's taking care of me, he likes to do that. makes him feel all competent and manly, you know : )

we women are strong for the details and outpouring of emotion, men have their own strengths, they like to do and fix. use that to your advantage!

When I try that direct and sweet approach , Mine will often
get sort of put out, and do it like a martyr.
Do an incomplete job. and at some other juncture will ruminate
about men being "Mules", and all the women who 've used him.
He approves of independent capable women. My POP has
increased his load. Sometimes I think he doesn't like Women
very much. Kind of fears their non-linear ability to change and
move around. Mine's a Capricorn, an earth sign =
Stubborn Man squared ?

I need a Vacation in the worst way. I need an Ocean at my
toes to remember my simple truths.
Add it to the list of things just not possible in the forsee-able
future. Maybe I could just find a puddle 'n eat some worms.

Workworkwork ad nauseum !!! My thoughts are so challenging
these days- I fear cracking up. Like I just can't keep this pace.
The price is looking like my sanity. I'm so insecure with him these
days and it's just bringing up so many ugly things I've seen
in Men. I don't think I've realized how much anger I've tucked
away - being a rather non-confrontational type. I am at wits end
to find an appropriate outlet either.

I guess I've just never needed one to be "there" as bad as I seem to
now. Wordless sex and then rolling over to sleep is just not
cutting it. It's been a f@$%^& theme in my life too ! With a Casanova
like my Dad I guess I never had a chance. Curious to finally meet my
D's first serious BF... so curious.

I don't want to spend the rest of my life being the walking wounded.
Somehow I think I need to throw it all to the wind and see what lands.
I thought I've been doing that but now I wonder if it isn't just more
of the same bad choices with good intentions. I'm sure this is cryptic
and all a whole lot of TMI. I apologize.

I'm emotionally,physically and spiritually tired. There it is.

I know he's tired too. He just wishes I would withdraw as
a coping skill... like he does. Like that would be playing nice,
and fair too.
Zelda

emailing you

I find I am stuggling to at the moment with my H. I am angry more than I can express in words this evening with him.

I know you ladies have offered advice on how to speak with them differently but to be honest nothing works for me. He doesn't want to do anything with me or for me. I ask in a nice way and weeks later I am still waiting, so I ask sternly and he snaps and then it turns into a shouting match.

If I want to do something for myself and ask if I can have some time its "how long are you going to be", "what are you doing", "where are you going", "what time will you be back" and the list goes on. Its not solely because I am going out but that he is being left with the kids on his own. My husband has no time to give me.

My POP has made me feel less able to cope and I know that shows. I try so hard to not let it take over my life but it is. I get so angry with having to pretend its not there just to keep everyone else happy.

emailing you too

i hope things improve with your H, i know they dont understand our problems all the time, but i sat down with mine months ago and explained that if i didnt have the little bit of help i looked for then what would happen was i would get worse and then he would be left to do a lot more than i asked him to, i also asked him what would happen if i was not around at all. i was only looking for help and i think when he thought about me not being there at all he realised i wasnt actually asking for much, we need to get them to understand that things could be worse and where would they be without us.. we hold things together for them... for our families, i dont know if this is any use to you but sometimes i think they need a dose of reality, hope your doing ok, take care,
rhonda xoxo

I'm actually a pretty good sleeper. I loooooove my sleep. But occasionally I can't sleep because I have too many thoughts wizzing through my head, especially if I've woken during the night and can't get back to sleep.

When I can't sleep because I'm thinking too much I try to picture all black with a single candle burning. I watch the flame from the candle in my mind. I learned it in meditation once. It's great because it's one way of clearing your mind of thoughts by focusing on a single image.

I also try reading if really struggling - but sometimes that doesn't help.

Also, if you're waking to get up for the toilet, try having your last drink no closer than two hours before bed so you're less likely to wake for that reason - that's what my PT suggested to me anyway and it helps me get through the night uninterrupted.

hey Anita,
I am aggravated with my husband too. He says he is willing to help but he doesn't follow through. Then it makes me the big nag. Last week I was hemmoraging with my period(had to sit on the toilet for over an hour because there was so much blood coming out)...got up the next morning and went to work and got not one bit of help at home. When I point it out to him(in as gently a way as possible) he just gets defensive and says he does help! Argh!
I empathize with you...
S

Ladies,

I've been married nearly forty years. I met my husband in an all girls Catholic boarding school. He was the teacher; I was the student. He swept me off my feet. Ten days after the wedding, he changed and became a closed, nasty, mean spirited, selfish, lazy SOB. I blamed myself and worked diligently to make him love me again. I struggled through four children, and a host of problems that I had no one to share with. If I was sick, pregnant, worried, frightened, alone, grief struck, I handled it myself year after year hoping and dreaming of the time he would finally be convinced I was worth loving. To demonstrate the extent of the idiocy, I even went to the doctor towing my children along. His response? There was no response.

The upshot? After nearly 40 years, I'm the strong one. I'm the one with the friends, the knowhow, the experience, the life, the name, the business, the reputation, and the love and respect of my children. He's completely lost.

My advice to anyone in a tough marriage situation is to rely on yourself to make your own way in the world without having to lean on a man. It is my experience that men have enough trouble keeping their own bad habits afloat to recognize anyone else in the pool. They think about getting laid, eating, sleeping, and their free time probably in that order. I have house cats that probably are more caring than most men. I don't think I've ever met a man who I would consider genuinely caring.

Years ago I simply did all the housework, cooking, shopping and childcare. I also worked 60 hours a week. He would invite his friends over (mine were never allowed) and I'd be maid, butler, governess, and scullery, and they would all be chatting away in my living room while I waited on them. Yes I was exhausted and sometimes resentful, but I came out the winner after all, and I believe it was my ability to work.

My daughters say they would never have endured it, but for me it was the only way. Sometimes things are tough and you just have to rely on yourself, but that shouldn't frighten you; it should make you strong and determined, and quite frankly, take ownership of all the big guns.

Telling a man that you have vaginal problems is just going to make it all worse. The very idea that you might be "sick" more than 3 hours is a life sentence to a careless man. And then there is the male cycle. It revolves around his desire for sex. If a woman's body cycle is contrary to his, the world comes crashing down, and of course it's her fault. Best scenario? Keep quiet, keep working, and keep your emotional distance. Anger only begets anger. Hostility, hostility, silence, silence, but joy begets joy, and laughter, begets laughter.

So what's the point of marriage? Marriage is different for a man. Men love the hunt. They hate the nest. So keep them hunting and keep the nest too good to be true, and in time they will hunger for what you are offering - the whole you. Mine did.

For Anita: Get a sitter even if you have to get a sitter right under his nose. He'll be paying for it. Don't ask, just do it. Maybe he'll volunteer next time.

Judy

I consider myself to be fortunate because although he has been, and is thoughtless at times, and is in no way perfect, my DH really does care about me and our family. Yes we have definitely had our issues, one of the main ones being our difference of opinion on how many children to have which was rather a biggie, but generally he is a good, kind, and hard working man who wants what is best for us all.

I know what drives him nuts is when I imply what I need instead of coming right out and stating it. It took me a while to figure this out with the help of a counselor, but now that I have it makes things a great deal simpler. A bit like Alemama, I need to say, "honey, I am feeling low, tired, down, stressed, etc today, and I need this from you to help me to feel better." It's not very romantic but it is a way of me getting what I need without leaving it up to him to figure it out, which for men can be difficult I think.

I do my very best to meet his needs which are surprisingly few I have to say, and generally things tick a long OK with the occasional blip or irritation, like the other weekend after my irrational running jealousy issue! :)

I so empathise with others here though. Marriage is not easy, and it took us a while to get our system going after a few years of marriage, a couple of kids, and some marriage counseling which was a godsend. Hang in there and try to keep lines of communication open, otherwise the resentment festers away and does no good for anyone.

My sister says you gotta watch a British series called Little Britian.

and I love the last little bit of your post- I loved it all actually.

Anita, have you tried simple, genuine, sad tears, rather than being all strong and determined. They are not threatened by tears, but they don't know what to do, except look after you. He might growl a bit, but just ask him for a tissue and see how fast he scrambles for the box. They love to be needed, and for us to show them our weakness, especially if it is unconditional. Good luck.

I think this was how I got through to my DH when I said I was leaving him. I don't think I had ever previously cried genuinely sad tears (which he was the primary cause of). I was back living at home again properly within 6 months, and he is now a very different man and it is a different marriage. It wasn't a conscious manipulation on my part. I was genuinely broken up by his lack of connection to me, neglectful emotional abuse and just couldn't take it any more. And I felt so sorry for him because he had no idea what had happened, and no idea he had caused me such heartbreak. Be genuine. Good luck.

Louise

wow Judy-
you make my man look like a saint!!!
He actually is a good man, we just aren't on the same page!

Wow Judy, I loved your post and your advice. My 1st husband was like your, but after 10 years of marrage it was over. DH #2 is a keeper - been married for 26 years and he would do anything for me. Now with POP, he does all of the heavy housework on a regular schedule. It's not always as good as I would do it, but I certainly don't complain. He's a sweetie!

Yes I have done the real heartbreaking genuine sad tears when all this started. I sat and sobbed for ages and spilled our everything in my heart and I really felt like a broken woman emotionally and physically. I think I may have seen a tear in H's eye but within about 48 hours all was forgotten and it was back to the norm.

I have always had a hard time crying in front of people and this is something I have tried to tackle in therapy. I feel ashamed so usually I go into another room and try my best to hide it which is hard to do when you are an emotional person. So for me to cry openly like that you would have thought he would have found some level of understanding as to how bad I felt.

I think I need to accept that I will never get through.

Anita

I'm just so thoughtful I don't know what to say now, but-
Thank You All !!!! It helps.
I Have to go work even though I'm bleeding like a
slaughter-house. My inner thighs are sore right down
to my ankles. So bizarre.
Everyone say "Fortitude" 'cause I need it. I feel like the
palest shade of me.
Love you guys,
Zelda

Hi Anita

Well, it was worth checking, I guess. I am sorry, I had forgotten that. I remember now when you posted about it. You may be right. There are some things we cannot change, no matter how hard we try. It is sometimes a matter of living the best we can in the spaces available to us. Maybe he just *cannot* connect, for whatever reason. ((Anita))

Louise