Exercise

... and welcome. I am sorry you have had the need to find this website but now that you have you have found a wonderful site for support and advice.

As far as walking goes Christine recommends that you walk everyday in posture as it helps to reposition your organs so by all means get walking. You can read about the posture on the home page under the FAQ's section and it is also demonstrated in the DVD along with a workout routine.

I don't know anything about the other exercise video you have but you need to be VERY careful about doing abdominal exercises as you do not want to put strain on your pelvic floor, sit ups/crunches are not good for prolapse. I am not the best person to advise you here but there are lots of ladies that keep fit and can give you some advice and hopefully will be around soon.

I just wanted to say hi and welcome.

Anita

see other recent posts on exercise-seems that everyone here has a different level of activity that works for them. See how your body feels...I have found that any exercise that involves any kind of bouncing/jumping does NOT work for me.

Hi. I just found this webpage today. I have been diagnosed with Rectocele. This happened on December 26th. I was in the shower and felt this protrusion and I knew something was very wrong. The GYN was someone who I had not met before. He made the diagnosis and said that I could walk on my treadmill. I confirmed that later with his nurse. However, I am scared that if I walk it will "fall " even further. I have an appt., with another recommened doctor on March 10th. I cannot get in before then.
I am 56 aand have one daughter who is 26.
I was told that I wanted to avoid surgey , but I do knot see that this will get better. I am also a teacher. I am scard of the though of surgery at my age--or any age.
I realy want to work out on my home gym and walk on my treadmill. I am scared though.
Please give any advice. I am use to exercisng and feel worse now that I am not.
I do have some lower back pain, but do not know if this is partially tension and anxiety over "not knowing " what the new GYN will say.
Thanks, Rainey

If you have a treadmill you may very well find that when you UP the incline the prolapse feels better.

Please read the book of Christines and you will see why surgery is something to be AVOIDED...

If you try out lots of differing activities you will find one that suits. Try to walk 'softly' and not stamp in the steps kind arollll your foot through the arch from ball to heel etc (As if you were walking at mid night not wanting to wake a family)

Hopefully this will all help you - The posture will be the biggest help..

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

As Sue said getting in posture in the first thing you should do, you can find an explanation of this on the home page under the FAQ's section and there are lots of other posts on the forum about it. Use the search facility and type in "posture" and you will come across lots.

Walking is great for prolapse so I would say getting back on your treadmill and walking in posture would be a great idea. With any other form of exercise it is really a case of trying something and seeing how your body responds. If you feel any pressure in your pelvic area then I would stay stop and find something else.

If you can get a copy of Christine's book then you can arm yourself with the knowledge of what prolapse is and how to live with it. You can get copies from either the Wholewoman store www.wholewomanstore.com or Amazon and if you go via Amazon it is the blue cover version you want as that is the most up to date with all the latest information.

Any questions or concerns ask away.

Anita

Hi guys-
I'm still waiting on my book so sorry for another question- I have mild prolapsed uterus, bladder, bowel, urethra- I've always liked to do dancing (ballet, jazz etc), running, aerobics, bikeriding, horseriding, snowskiing. I'm scared to do them now, especially ballet as I only starting to learn last year and can't tell from memory how much abdominal pressure is felt.

Does anyone know if these things are a definite no-no or ok?
I can deal with stress incontinence if that's a side-effect, but don't want to make prolapse worse.

When Christine states she took exercises from 'classical dance', is she referring to classical ballet, or more ancient methods like indian dancing etc?

Having ok time right now, but have not done any exercise other than walking, and have diet under control. Don't want to make things worse (mine mostly worsens after bad bowel movement from observation of late), understand it can differ for each person, but still would like an idea of other experiences to weigh up options.

Cheers,
bluemama
xxoo

Hi Bluemama

The first job for you is to use the search box on the left of the screen to search "exercise", "danc", "horse", "skiing", etc which will bring up a list of topics which contain a the character string searched for. Open each of these topics then use your browser's Find function to highlight the search term and skip to it. There are heaps of posts about different women's experiences with different types of exercise.

Once you get the book and understand some more about the structure of your pelvic area and
how to use your body so you don't put further strain on the fascia that support your organs you will understand how intraabdominal pressure works and how to avoid its damaging effects by directing it in safe ways.

Once you understand these physical sensations better you will intuitively be able to stop doing anything damaging and find ways by trial and error of avoiding problems, simply because you will feel those sensations of pressure, rubbing and distension less and less as you use good posture more and more, so every time you feel it you will stop and reassess what you are doing, and how you can do it without the sensations that indicate intraabdominal pressure on your pelvic floor. There are more ways of killing a cat than skinning it alive.

Sorry if I seem evasive on this and don't seem to be talking specifically enough for you, but part of the principle of this work is that you need first to understand what is happening in every woman's body and work with the principles applied to your own body, movement and lifestyle. There are no absolute rules for what you can or cannot do, other than jarring exercises are probably unhelpful. The sensations you feel will tell you.

There are some forms of exercise, like running and step aerobics that I would not recommend to anybody in a fit. Yet there are Members who love them so much that they have found ways of moving that do not annoy *their own* prolapses, and still contribute to elevating activity level with whole body exercise, which elevates mood and contributes to overall wellbeing.

So, don't limit yourself by eliminating certain categories of exercise. Try each in turn that you feel confident to try, gently and slowly at first, and not in an environment where you feel pressured to keep up with a group.

I think a lot of the problem with finding suitable forms of exercise is that any women who has just been diagnosed with or discovered it for herself feels pretty vulnerable, scared that anything physical that she does will worsen her condition, and conscious that if it all falls lower she may need to consider surgery (as it is the only option that is really offered to these medical patients, other than "do nothing and keep suffering"). It can seem to be like arriving at the gates of hell and asking whether you would rather use the boiling oil swimming pool or the tanning salon inside the furnace. No wonder we get scared!!

That is a head thing, and can only be addressed by dipping your toes in the water and discovering how much you *can* do. Just be patient until you get your book Bluemama.

:-)

Cheers

Louise

thank you for your response-
I am impatient...compulsive reader, and was hoping to have it by today so I could start my first day at 35 with a plan! Fingers crossed it will get here soon...
Cheers,
blue mama

p.s. thanks for the search tip- very useful to know!

There are many ways to move that are more comfortable.

Sunday I went on my treadmill (walking) and it made it worse - Monday I did step and it was not worse... It is all in HOW you do things...

Step = Step like you are doing step at midnight with kids asleep in bed you don't wanna wake... This will mean you 'step lightly' No jumpy bouncy moves that do nothing but bounce... When you move a part of your body you use 'range of motion' which is pressing and pulling through the muscle instead of flinging an arm into the air and then letting it fall down - This means your muscles are working harder and then it does more for your body and is not just time wasted...

Running I personally would not do as there is always a sharp impact with the foot.

Walking - roll through the foot instead of just stamping down. Walk in the posture - I have found on my treadmill that to raise the incline means you can walk slower but it seems to protect the prolapse a bit - Only if you raise incline above 8% tho for some reason...

There are so many things you can do.
Personally my boy is not that of a ballet workout type - It is more of a strength training or slow and steady but long workout type. Or - Big built - lol

I used to do alot of rowing on rowing machine. I want to try this again one day to see how it goes with my prolapse. I do kinda worry that the push through the body would make things worse. But it is all a game of try it and see...

Hope that helps in some small way.

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Rainey,

I haven't been writing here because my mom died last week, and I had a lot of stuff to do. I'm also 56 and now the matriarch of the family! I'm also a teacher and also have a rectocele and a cystocele as well -- rhymes!

For a long time, teaching with prolapse was really hard. The discomfort of prolapse was really hard to get used to and really hard thinking my whole body was collapsing. But after a retched summer and a so so good fall, I settled nicely into winter activities, and it's OK now.

I actually own a school for kids 3-7, so a lot of my teaching is in short spurts. I am on my feet as many as 12 hours a day. What I try to do is to sit as often as I can. I have a stool that I move around, and I use that to take the long hours of pressure off.

I do yoga when someone doesn't die! And I modify that to accommodate my prolapses. I find I am stronger when I exercise, and I like the process I'm making.

Surgery could make you rectally incontinent. I don't want to face that, so I'm using the posture and drinking a lot of water and eating a lot of fruit. I don't think anyone can really "fix" this thing. It's sad, but it's the price for having children, and once you realize that, it kinda makes you accept it. That's the hard part - accepting it.

Be happy to be a shoulder,

Judy

'it's the price for having children, and once you realize that, it kinda makes you accept it.'

Sorry, I'll never accept it. It may be the price for having kids, but some of us would have liked to know the price before going ahead and having kids. If I'd known the price, I'd have adopted. Definitely.

Sorry, I'm having a tough time at the moment, and knowing this thing is with me for the rest of my life is making me grumpy. I wish pregnancy books etc. actually had a warning in capital letters 'YOU STAND A 50 PER CENT CHANCE OF HAVING PROLAPSES IF YOU HAVE KIDS.' Then women can make an informed choice as to whether or not to get pregnant. I wish I'd had warning of this. It's too late for me now.

I'm facing the next 30 years or more with this (assuming I can carry on that long), no sex life, unable to sit in comfortable chairs like men can, unable to go on long walks, like an elderly relative. I'm not maternal enough to think having kids is worth it. Sorry. I've had enough.

Judy, I'm sorry to hear about your mom. The above rant is not meant to be directed at you, by the way! I'm just speaking honestly. I'm just not one of these 'the womb is a wonderful thing, it's so wonderful to be a mother in spite of everything' kind of gals. That's all.

Beejay

I'm with you on that post.

I love my children to bits but had I foreseen this I would have found another way and this thing makes being a mother so much harder, trying to find ways around things when I just want to do what I need to do. Yeah, I've had enough but what is the alternative. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

women want babies so bad they take fertility drugs that have a known increased risk of cancer. I would have given my arm to have mine- truthfully I would have given up my ability to walk.
We have played this game called "would you rather" and I would def. rather have my babies than have my perfect vagina.
Honestly it was pure stupidity on my part to imagine that I would birth a baby and go back to the same body- ya right!
but then my symptoms are pretty mild right now and sex is great- ask me in a few years and I may feel differently

Beejay,

No offense taken. I just spent the last few days with my dil. She is not maternal at all, and as I watched her work with her children, I realized just how non-maternal she is. Her entire outlook I would regard as "executive wannabe." She wants to be in the director's chair of every situation, but never makes the human connection that would allow her to ever direct anything well - especially the behavior of her kids. Hostile dependency is rampant and so hard for me to watch because it does not produce nice children. She's a psychologist and is now teaching early childhood at a local college.

My daughter, on the other hand, is as maternal as a milk cow or a goose with a string of goslings - can't decide which is more maternal. M has children the same age and the difference is remarkable.

I say, "human connection" because that, I think, is the key here to understand and accept that we are not alone especially in the birthing process. Just like a man's battlefield, we lay our lives on the line to give birth. We say yes to death in order to bring life into the world. We are never so close to death than we are at birth in many tangible and intangible ways. When we say yes to death, we do it heroically, and when the danger has passed, we forget, but the war wounds are in the making with everything we do.

In my life, I've given up many things to be a mother as I'm sure many of us have. But the rewards have much outstripped the losses, and for young mothers, the rewards will continue and continue. I've been a mother 36 years and can't say I'd take any of it back, even the prolapses.

The human connection I speak about I'm sure many of you have felt with your child. It's a deep empathy, a pathos that reaches beyond the flesh and into the very soul of your child. To understand another's heart; to feel his hurt or joy or discovery is a remarkable human achievement that I cannot fathom not having known in my life.

These are the things that motherhood is made of. The bit of bulge I feel would never be a reason to lose that. That's why I say it's a price to be paid. It's a war wound. I never hit the battlefield, but two of my kids did - one boy, one girl. My battlefield was on the delivery table, and this is a war wound; a purple heart. Unfortunately the purple heart is between my legs and not hanging on my chest!

Judy

There is something in these words. To find yourself actually thinking and typing such words is indeed very big and scary, and strikes to the very heart of being a woman. Putting these words out for all the Internet to read is at least admitting how deeply pelvic organ prolapse affects us, and how we perceive ourselves.

It is like the proverb, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." When you are deep in the grief of having lost a loved one it is nonsense to say, "it is better to have loved and lost", because often we think things like, "I would rather have died with them (or with the relationship) than to live through this misery", but a some time further down the track we can move on from the misery and get on with our lives, and no longer feel the injury and hurt of loss every minute of the day, but less and less often as time goes on. We can just remember our loved one (or our childless lifestyle and family?) with great fondness.

Life does go on, and I think this sort of statement and the negative emotions that accompany it are a very unpleasant sign of the grief process at work. It is just something that you need to work through until you come to a point where you accept that having children is a twin-edged sword, and move on to making the most of your situation. Kids do horrible things to people and kids lift us to the highest of highs. There is no doubting the colour and dimensions they add to our lives and those around them.

Nothing is black and white. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages, some of which we can escape from, or ignore, or pass on to somebody else. Prolapse is not in this category. We live with it in our own bodies, for the rest of our lives (and it is not our kids' fault, or necessarily caused by their birth). For some of us, not growing children inside us would make no difference at all. We would still get it for other reasons.

I am sorry if this sounds all high and mighty. It is not meant to come out that way. This is real human pain that needs to be addressed by each woman in her own way. And I think there are often situations in life where you are 'damned if you do, but still damned if you don't'. It is really hard to deal with these times and situations, but we just have to make very careful choices that each one of us can live with best in the long term; an optimum, if not perfect answer.

It is not a matter of wishing we didn't have our kids in the first place. It is more about saying, "I have kids, I have prolapses. What am I going to do about living the best I can."

Bookworm 2000, we have hijacked your topic, sorry. The lack of response may have been because Members are not familiar with these programmes. I am certainly not. I think when you read Christine's book you may answer your own questions. If not, ask the Forum again.

Prayers to those who are struggling with their bodies.

Louise

I certainly would not want to give my babies back, no way! But for me this is making my day to day life difficult and I find myself turning down activities because it makes things feel worse and I sit on the sidelines watching when I used to join in. I cannot live my life the way I want to live it, I am governed by POP.

I ached to have a baby and I had 2 miscarriages before I had my son and I was so afraid I would not have children. The love that washed over me the minute my son as born was amazing. My daughter's birth was a bit different and I didn't have the same instant overwhelming bond but I was going through a really hard time mentally with the trauma left over from my sons birth. It did not take long for the bond to happen and I love them both to bits.

I do however feel I have paid a high price for having children - the quality of my life. I do not blame my kids in any way shape or form for my situation as it is not their fault but I do feel we as women should be informed and educated BEFORE we become pregnant about what can happen. We are told about everything else that can go wrong so why not about this as well. Things NEED to change.

When I say I would have done things differently had I known this would happen I am not sure what I would have done. I cannot imagine my life without my kids.

I think for some of us working through the different emotions of this is really tough and I am not sure how to get the quality of my life back. Sure there are many things in life that change us and there are many things that can happen but this is what I am dealing with and I am trying to find my way through.

I am rambling but just wanted to clarify that my kids are most definately LOVED.

I have always said that I would die for my children and if put in a situation and I had to choose them or me, I choose them everytime. I really would die for them and do anything not to see them in pain.

Yesterday I went to my son's choral concert. He's 12 and in 5th grade.
He's a head taller than most of his class. A high School choir sang first
and they were just incredible. Then the kids.
I sat there with such joy in my heart as I looked at all these wonderful kids.
I don't know how to convey how very much it fed my spirit.

I am not the most maternal woman, truth.
But I have come to not want to imagine my life without them. I'm a bit ashamed to
say when they were little I was often frustrated by the limitations. I had been very
active rock climbing, back-packing and hard-core Mountain biking.

Apparently I had enough Maternal instinct to know I had to quit these things,
but not cheerfully.
I ramble,
Zelda

I wish that I knew about prolapse before I got pg. I still would've had my babies though. but more than that, I wish I had known how to PREVENT prolapse during labor and delivery. how to protect my pelvis with posture and positioning, an active well supported labor and NO PERINEAL CUTTING. This matters. I don't believe that there has to be a 50% risk of prolapse with childbirth. yes, sometimes a well planned natural birth turns into something else {{{{jane}}}}, but that should be well below the 50% mark.

so yes, we've paid a price for our babies. but infuriatingly, it was a price we might not have had to pay if only this knowlege was out there.

Ladies,

That's where I agree wholewomanly. I think the idea that these are battle wounds before the fact is a medical disgrace. The chopping, snipping convenience for the doctor when the result is years of discomfort needs to bring drs up on charges! I want to say learn your craft!

I don't know if any of you delivered so many years ago when the enema was still given so Mr.Wonderful wouldn't have to deal with any poo. So they full your already suffering body with a quart of soap.

And we were also shaved from head to foot as if we were entering some dreadful surgery.

Lots of things have changed, and agree - more - lots more needs to change. When you think of how painful it can be to deliver, and the priority is making the doctor comfortable, you do just want to scream.

when I was born my mom was put into 'twilight'. she has no recollection of my birth, but my aunt says that it wasn't pretty. she (my aunt) knew right away that I was a 'forceps baby', she recognized the dents in my head from her own babies. my mom's ob didn't even tell her about that, and when mom asked about it, the ob said 'so no big deal. all the babies need to be helped out one way or another, why do you care how?'

so yeah, we've come a long way. but there is still so much room for improvement! slowly though, we're paving the way for our daughters. my sister is pg with her 8th and asked her OB if he'd allow her to birth standing up. he said, well, as long as I can figure out how to catch the baby, it shouldn't be a problem. [my doula can give him a tip or two! she managed to catch my little guy in a tiny bathroom. somehow she got herself under the sink,lol.] now lets see if he will actually get on the floor to catch my little niece/nephew when the time comes. but at least he's saying he will try. its a start.

and btw, my sister has no prolapses.

.. how you have prolapses but your sister on her 8th pregnancy has none - Wow!

My sister carried LARGE babies and was H U G E when she was pregnant. O.k. she had c-setions for both as they were so BIG but she has not a single problem, not even the odd stress incontience. I have read that c-section protects us again prolapse but then I have also read stories from women who had c-sections say otherwise, Zabadee being one.

Nikki's MIL springs to mind aswell, 7 children and a hysterectomy and no problems. Geesh I wish.

Anita

I too, am in the group that says "while I wouldn't give away my children...this is a price that isn't necessary we pay". My sister has had c-sections. And, I know they aren't perfect, but she has NO problems. She can have another baby - no questions, no issues. I want one more, but it is worth having my bottom fall completely out? Ugh. And, even if I elect a c-section at this time the damage is already done as Anita has dealt with. With a c-section you run a risk of like 2 in 100,000 dying. With vaginal birth, the way it is currently practiced in the US and UK, you run a 1 in 2 chance of life-altering POP. I would have gambled with the c-section.

I guess I just join in in saying that Doctors should and must tell us there is this possibility. That way it isn't such a shock when it happens and we can look at ways to minimize our risk before it happens.

I dream about going back in time and having c-sections. The birth of my 2nd DD (which I 100% believe caused my problems) was nothing short of traumatic. Nothing was good about it at all, except that she arrived healthy. But, she could have done that through a c-section as well and I wouldn't still shudder at the memory of her birth.

Anyway...let's keep spreading the word in hopes to spare others.

guess what ladies. there's alot the docs don't tell you about risk of c/s too. my friend had one (after 4 vaginal births - no prolapse) and now guess what, almost a year pp she not only still has pain at the incision site, but adhesions too.

my sil had a c/s with her first. the baby was 'overdue' and 'large' and the c/s was 'recommended'. now she says she wished she knew then what she knows now. no one told her that a c-section limits the number of babies you can have safely. she and my brother always wanted a very large family and now she was told no more than 4 or 5.

and there are inherent risks to the baby with c-sections. vaginal birth is safest (meaning life and death safest, not prolapse or other 'minor' problems) for both mother and baby.

and like others have said, no guarentees in life. there've been women here who didn't have any kids and developed a prolapse. so just think, what if you chose to forgo children and wound up with prolapse at age 45 anyway? now its too late to have the babies and you've paid the price anyway. no way to know what will be. you gotta go with your heart's desire sometimes and deal with the sh*t when it happens. if not prolapse then something else. that is life. if you live long enough, you WILL have challenges to overcome and difficulties to deal with

I'm sorry - this tread has become very upsetting to me. A woman I work with who is MY age just found out she has breast cancer. She has 2 children - I have 1. I have prolapse - she doesn't. She has breast cancer - by the grace of God I don't.

What is this??? It is the price of being alive. Prolapse is the price of being alive, like anything else that might happen to us.

I thank God for every new day, for my daughter, for my granddaughter...for my prolapse, because I am alive.

GF

yep, that's what I was trying to say

so sorry to hear about your coworker, though. praying she successfully fights it and comes out healthy on the other side.

we've got a morning prayer we say as soon as we awake. Thanking G-d for granting us another day. somedays its hard not to let the problems overwhelm that sense of 'life is precious', and I can totally relate to that, but once you get it in perspective, it seems easier to cope. at least for me.

You are so right, Granolamom. Once you have perspective you can get on with life without this monkey on your back 24/7. It is still there, and needs to be considered with a lot of tasks and activities but it doesn't rule your life. It is just another thing to consider as you move through your day, along with traffic, bad weather, sunburn, dehydration (for us down here on the bottom of the world), drugs and alcohol, selfish dickheads, and nutters. Prolapse, schmolapse! If it is the worst chronic challenge I have to face before I meet my maker, I will be going OK!

Here's to finding some perspective.

Cheers

Louise

Thanks, Louise - that is how I feel. It is all about having perspective.

And Granolamom - I have a morning prayer, too, for starting the day. Thanks.

GF

I didn't mean to upset anyone with my comments. I just needed to be honest, even if I've touched on a taboo subject among mothers!

We're not all blessed with the maternal gene, and when POP happens it seems to amplify your feelings about motherhood and the price to be paid.

Your postings are full of wisdom, and I'm trying to take it all on board, but some days it's difficult to put everything in perspective when POP overwhelms your entire day's activities (or lack of activities).

Judy, I understand what you mean about the price to be paid, etc. I'm just saying that when my husband & I decided to start a family, we didn't realise that POP was part of the price.

I agree totally with ATS. We should be educated BEFORE we become pregnant.

For some of us, advance education about POP would make us consider adoption; for others, advance education about POP would mean going ahead with pregnancy, but with posture changes and better informed decisions about childbirth practices. What I'm saying is, in my situation, I would probably have gone down the adoption route if I'd had advanced knowledge. I shouldn't be criticised for that decision (not that you are criticising it, of course. All your comments are very helpful), just as I wouldn't think any less of someone who decided to go ahead with pregnancy fully accepting the price to be paid.

Louise, you're right - 'kids do horrible things to people and kids lift us to the highest of highs.' That describes my teenager perfectly. Sometimes I think 'I wrecked my body for this ungrateful, morose, needs-a-bomb-behind-him-to-get-him-to-move teenager' but then he is an amazingly talented musician. If he hadn't been born, we'd never have heard his music...

Regarding the cancer comments - yes, that does put things in perspective. I know, and I keep reminding myself, POP is not life threatening. But it's where it is. When it's something between your legs, it's a constant discomfort whether you walk, sit or stand, and on the blackest of days you just wish to be normal again, to run with your kids, walk round the shops and ENJOY browsing instead of thinking 'where's the nearest chair for this prematurely-aged mum to sit down for ten minutes - and I'd better not carry anything too heavy?' Then there's the constantly depressing thought about the future - will I be doubly incontinent? Will it swing between my knees? (Okay, that last one may have been a bit exaggerated. Maybe it'll swing between my thighs, then.)

And for a lot of diseases, doctors don't know the exact cause, so can't always inform about preventative measures. But for POP, doctors KNOW there's a good chance mothers will get it, but DON'T WARN you in advance. That's what makes you feel like screaming in frustration at something that you could have been warned about, but weren't.

Beejay

I welcome your comments. In my opinion, this is a place that we can all be truly honest about our feelings. I believe that the other ladies here would agree. This should not be a place to hold back. We have to do that enough in our lives.

I agree with Stella.

Anita

I've had many similar thoughts about Maternal Instinct and Ease. By
ease I mean the curious ability some Women have to shift gears
when they start baby-time. Dykwim ? They fall into the bliss of it with
grace and selflessness.
I did and didn't. I was enjoying MY life and was just finding great direction.
(I wanted to be a Naturopath/Homeopath and move to Germany where I have family)
I Did learn much "Bliss of Babes" and all the heart-ache Too.
"The balance of all things
being in their
opposites."
I salute you in being honest with yourself. Not minimizing it. Exploring and recognizing
how we feel is the only way we can have a chance to really respond ? And I salute you
for doing it without an air of self-consciousness. Without timidity, shame or fear of
judgement. All traits I aspire to. Slightly taboo in certain crowds and in my Libran fashion
I so totally understand why.
The curious thing about feelings is they change depending on perspective they are not
who we are... so much as HOW we are ?
I'l look for your posts. Oh - and I really laughed at the description of your teen-ager. I'm
blessed with an overly bright independent and utterly gorgeous !6 yr Old D. And I thought I
was alone in my bomb fantasy.
Zelda

Sorry if I sounded terse. I still stand by what I said about getting it all in perspective. However ...

What you say is very true. Challenging the wisdom of having children, and expressing resentment at what they have done to our bodies on a public women's forum is pretty confrontational and pretty honest and pretty brave and pretty necessary. As you say, if we can't express and explore these ideas here, where can we do it without being labelled selfish anti-life nutters? Please don't think I am labelling anybody as such. If any person denies their true feelings about themselves, and pretends they are not thinking these thoughts it is impossible to 'play with' the ideas and try to make some sense of them. I think this is a very valid part of the grief process, and this Forum is an excellent place to do it.

I think you are getting closer to the mark with your call for more doctors to be open with patients about the incidence of prolapse (related to vaginal childbirth) and be a lot more honest with themselves about the role they play in increasing that incidence by inappropriately interfering with natural body processes. The whole obstetric industry's lack of sympathy and acknowledgement of the natural processes of pregnancy, labour, CS and vaginal childbirth is, I believe, more related to risk management for them, rather than the wellbeing of the patients (newborn and mother) with regard to allowing labour to go at its own pace, and the mother's body to be able to birth a baby in its own time, aided and abetted by their genuine desire to prevent and shorten pain and suffering where they are present. Also, for them prevention of maternal and neonatal death is a higher priority than prevention of POP, and I would stick my neck out to say that is a good thing.

I don't personally know whether episiotomy is more or less damaging than a tear. We have heard many personal accounts of different degrees of tearing with varying degrees of healing. We have also heard many stories of episiotomies, which are usually large and often for the purposes of allowing access for forceps, and may or may not heal well.

As I see it, having babies has always been the most dangerous time in a woman's life, and being born alive gives a person a good start in life. Maternal and newborn death and rates have never been lower in the developed world (even though unnecessary birth injuries for mothers and seriously disabled babies who would otherwise die are parts of the current story). Elsewhere, having babies is still relatively dangerous. I really don't think any of us would want to go back to natural childbirth without medical backup, but if I had my childbearing days again I would be staying away from hospitals births if I possibly could, because we have good community midwives and good medical backup.

I think we should be pushing hospitals (when hospital birth is deemed desirable or necessary to save the life of mum or baby) to understand the very important role of being vertical or forward during labour, to allow gravity to assist the labour process and open up the birth canal, whatever weight the women is, and whether the mother is capable of supporting her own body weight or not. Delivery tables and stuff need to be chucked out and replaced with some other way of supporting a woman's body in the optimum way for her body to birth. If that means obstetricians and hospital midwives need to lie on their backs under the mother, so be it. They just need protective gear to keep body fluids off them, and comfortable and mobile things to lie on. If they have to do their work in full scuba gear in a heated pool, then so be it. If the birth thingy needs to be able to swivel through 360 degrees so that all parts of the labouring mother are accessible if necessary, then so be it so that necessary procedures can be done well by obstetricians and midwives. This birth thingy also needs to be convertible to a surgical table in case an emergency CS has to be done.

There is not excuse in the world for encouraging/allowing a women to birth vaginally if she has to do it in a less than optimum position for her.

Labour and birth are still very unpredictable, as Jane has recently related. All that means is that hospitals need to be much more flexible to respond to the labouring mother, not the mother having to be more flexible to fit in with the hospital processes, policies and equipment.

Another area that needs improvement is that episiotomy and the suturing thereof needs to be recognised as a complex piece of surgery that it is, rather than an incision in a particular direction which can be stitched up like a bag of grain. If the complexity of these procedures, and the risk of getting them wrong, was properly recognised they might be less likely to do them in the first place. As I have said before, if penis surgery was done with as little seriousness as episiotomy we would all be on the streets protesting! It is atrocious that the sex of the patient, and the fact that the scars are hidden means that the procedure is not given appropriate significance and attention!

After all this we need to realise that it is not the decision to have kids, or birth vaginally that causes the prolapses. It is IMAO, the fact that we fall pregnant in the first place, lack of general respect for women's needs and the sacredness of the labouring woman's body and the role of birthing mother, bad antenatal education, intransigent hospitals, non-mother centred birth processes, fear of litigation, doctors' crazy, professional insurance policies, poorly informed obstetricians and midwives, the power struggles between hospital staff, inadequate funding for childbirth facilities, medicalisation of the birth process, byproduct results of surgical (CS) birth , the hallowed position of medical practitioners at government policy level, poor posture, poor exercise, movement and fitness education, our emotional and physical vulnerability as birthing women, faulty anatomy models, bad diet, Western lifestyle, genetic pre-disposition, lack of judgement about when birth intervention is necessary, lack of prestige for community midwifery services, scar tissue and fascial damage from previous, unrelated surgery, and fear on the part of everybody, probably other causes as well. Sometimes a woman simply draws the short straw on a number of these factors and is left terribly and chronically injured for the rest of her life.

This is where I think we need to look at all the causes, work out which we can personally work on, both in our own bodies and out in the community, get very angry about it, and just get on with continuing work on our bodies and in the community. Repair surgery may end up being a part of this.

Sorry about this little rave. I get very cross too, but I think it is important to remember and act on the Serenity Prayer to keep us real.

God, grant me the ability to change the things I can change,
And accept the things I cannot change,
And grant me the wisdom to know the difference.
Amen.

Louise

I adore your rants Louised ! they give us all the most articulate voice expressing our reality.

Terse ? couldn't find it , didn't notice anything I would call terse. And what's wrong with terse ?
Being Succint/terse has a certain economy.
No worries.
Zelda

Amen - Louise! Wow - that nailed it on the head. I said I wish I could go back and have c-sections. Let me clarify...under the current medical practice of vaginal birth...(insert what Louise said here) I wish I could go back and have c-sections. Or, at least have my child in a home or birthing center with a midwife and in WHATEVER position my body directed me to do it. Not...on my back with my legs at my ears. Not...with NO knowledge of prolapse even though we have a VERY good friend who is a urogynecologist, and though my mother had the surgery twice, and my own dh is a doctor. What the heck?!?!?! Why the secrecy about damage to the vagina. A little over 1/2 the population of the world has a vagina! Why the secrets?

My own little rant.
Nikki

Thanks Zelda and Louise and everyone else! It's been so good to be able to talk honestly about feelings about all this. We all have different personalities and we're all going to have different ways of looking at things, so it's good to be able to share openly like this. If we couldn't, we'd go mad, wouldn't we? :)

You're right, Zelda, about feelings changing depending on how we are. On good (well, not too uncomfortable POP days) I think I can deal with this. On the bad days I wonder how far things will fall out and that's when I get these dark, dark thoughts. And then I think about getting the whole lot sewn together, even though it means no more sex, because I think to myself - sex is what got me into this sorry mess in the first place! KWIM? But apparently, the sew-it-all-shut op is not terribly successful either. Oh, well...

Back to the posture and exercises. Wretched gravity. Maybe there should be a gravity-free space station built especially for POP-ladies to live the rest of their days... We could broadcast warning messages to the ladies still on earth, so they can avoid POP (unless they fancy living in space too). And surgeons won't be allowed up there. Surgeons who have carried out unnecessary and damaging ops on women can be blasted towards a distant planet, maybe... or we could direct a few aliens with probes in their direction...

Okay, now you're going to think I'm bonkers.

Beejay

Since we seem to have a running thread on this topic, I have to put my two cents in!
I have been a student midwife for a long time and I have learned over the years how very different medical(hospital) births are from homebirths. At least in the US, homebirth midwives have a completely different approach to pregnancy and childbirth than do obgyns. To a homebirth midwife, pregnancy and birth are a healthy normal phenomena. When we attend a birth, labor and delivery are directed by the MOTHER. We follow her around the house so that she can have the ease and comfort that she needs; she delivers WHEREVER and however it makes her feel comfortable(assuming it is safe. Many women believe that they can have a homebirth-like experience in a birthing center or even in a hospital with a doula. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Hospital midwives(for the most part) have a different kind of training and approach than do homebirth midwives. Their training, though tending to be more holisitic, is still based on the medical model.(FEAR!)
I am also a doula. And as wonderful as it is to have a doula at a hospital birth(and it is truly helpful), we can only provide labor support-not take away the influence of the medical establishment if that is the setting that has been chosen.
For all of you moms who plan to have more babies, I can assure you that homebirth with a qualified midwife will likely be the safest and most gentle on your body. Statistics show that there are less complications with homebirths as well.

? Or a compact inversion table that fits in my purse ?
Or a magic wand ? (never mind - I'll borrow my husbands)

I know what you mean "wretched gravity" I now move like I have
glass baubles inside me.

Homebirth is as marvelous as birth can get. I knew that fortunately,
and had successful ones w/ both. Even with all the politics that had
heated up around it in Wyoming. My 2nd was 11 lb. 12 oz. no tears,
no signs of prolapse. but who knows ? the last time I'd checked,
I was prolly 8.

I did this to myself working too hard is the sad thing. I am however
coming to terms with what is. My condition is progressing however
- if you can call it that. I'm really wondering where it will stop. I was
alarmed to hear that it even affects the small intestine.. I have visions
of a gut pile hitting the ground. It would be most inconvenient.
A new use for the baby slings ? Wouldn't that freak people out when
you go shopping ? Meet my small intestine, isn't it cute ?

Speaking of shopping and freaking people out... I was at the grocery
store a few days ago and at the end of the aisles I kept running into a
Woman with her four children in tow. She ended up apologizing, and
I said "no worries It's like grocery store Ballet..."
Well she looked at me and said "Are you a Ballerina ? I thought you were-
You look like one." I was as grateful to hear that as you can imagine...
and stuttered a "no but but but That means more to me than you could know"
and I ended up telling this total stranger the odd phenom of yer parts fallin' out.
I won't minimize - she was clearly horrified, but also had a light come on
and said "That's what's ailing my SIL, but she won't talk about it, all I knew was
it was something with her bladder !" So I told her about SWW and gave her
my business card if she had Questions.

And I whittle away at the shame this gives me. I can't tell you how often I want to
warn women that we are not draft horses and ARE fragile in our own fashion.
but only once at Petsmart. A young woman with !2! bags of food in her arms,
she didn't know what to make of me. And the pregnant women. Can you imagine
how bad That would be though ? It's scary enough being preganant w/out real
horror stories. "Funny" how many women will share their bad birth experiences
w/ a pregnant woman. I sure won't.
Zelda

Louise:
Thank you for your insightful and straight-forward post. We are all open-minded and intelligent women here, and need to learn as much as we can about the reasons for this malady so that we can move forward in educating others.

Which leads me to another thought that I have been having lately - just about every newcomer here starts out by saying "I’m so glad I found you". Finding us probably was the result of a Google search on one of the key words: prolapse, cystocele, etc. But finding us after the damage has been done is not the solution. I think we all agree with you that women need to find us before they become pregnant or before they even think about having children.

I know this might be farfetched – but I think we would all concur that the only person who can really help get this message out is Oprah. Don’t laugh, it is possible. You mentioned that you are coming to the United States in 2009. Well, there is your opportunity to partner with Christine and get on Oprah’s show. You both have a year’s time to write a letter, talk to her representatives about the topic and share the book and website with them. Millions of women would watch and listen. Millions would buy the book. The wave would be started, and there would be no stopping it. It would gain momentum and there would be no turning back.

Zelda educated the woman in the grocery store and passed her a business card. I wish we all had the opportunity to do that. Good for you, Zelda! You have helped someone else, and who know how many people that woman will tell, and so on, and so on... But if we could educate millions in one hour – I just can’t imagine.

Sorry to put you on the spot, Louise. I’m just trying to look at the grand picture, and since you’ll be here anyhow...you and Christine together...what a formidable pair!!!

Love, Goldfinch

how many active members are there here? I wonder?
I'm just thinking if there was a campaign started to petition Oprah- how many of us would be there? I mean 1000 letter would make a much bigger impact than 2.
and Zelda. I love the idea of whitling away the shame by sharing and helping someone else. It is the truth.

That's a great idea! Maybe we could all send our letters to Christine and then they could be mailed out in one giant box. Whenever Oprah has a show about a certain 'topic', it seems the audience is filled with people who are connected to that topic. The show organizers must have ways of finding people and bringing them in (maybe paying their airfare, etc). It's sure seems worth a try...

I wrote to Oprah and Dr.Oz several times and told them all about this site and how we need to get the message out before women prolapse.
So far no response. But I know this info will be on the Oprah show someday!

christine on stage with oprah and all of us in the audience?
now THATs a fun day : )