Line drawings or video of posture and not posture

Submitted by MeMyselfAndI on February 18, 2008 - 8:51am
Body: 

Can someone who is good at art or something do line drawings of 'out of posture' and 'in posture' so every woman will 100% understand it?

I have finally given in and am going to TALK to Mums gynae next month (Cost = £150 cos I wont let him do anything to me) An expensive conversation really - But oh well spose it might help - Or not who knows...

I will take the pre publication copy of Christines book with me so if he says 'Can i read that' I can let him take it and not freak about losing the blue copy. Will hope to get it back tho.

Just - Well I dont know what I am hoping for - I really dont expect to get anything of value out of it, bar to be told my cystocele is worse which I already know.

I have no other words really as I am at a loss - What do you do when you have tried everything?
Life is definitely not what it was a mere 6mths ago.
But I am sure nobody wants to know about that cos its depressing and serves no purpose.

*EDIT*
Seems I have to actually SEE a Dr at my GPs surgery to get a referral. Luckily I am seeing the nicest Dr there (Not the witch) Kind of hoping he can answer all the questions I have - Though the more I think about it the more I wonder if any answer is actually going to allay my fears - They can't tell me pessaries are wonderful - I know they are ok but not wonderful. They can't tell me surgery is tops - I know better. So Will just hafta see what he has to say on the matter and see what I feel from there...

louiseds

February 18, 2008 - 6:56pm

Hi Sue

You have obviously reached a point where you need some medical style input. You're not stupid. You know your stuff. You have nothing to fear other than fear itself, and the fear of not getting any extra input to help you get better.

At worst, you may come out of the consultation (with either the regular doctor or the gyno), knowing no more than you already know. Is that worse? On the other hand they may be able to tell you more, or find out more about what is happening in your body.

Don't second guess what might happen in the consultation. Just go and deal with the outcome afterwards. You have nothing to lose.

Sometimes all the possible solutions to a decision suck, and you just gotta decide which way to go.

My prayers go with you. You gotta do this, I can see. Let us know when it is.

Cheers

Louise

ps Re the pictures, I think we need pictures with skeletons, as women have so much padding, and different shapes on the outside.

MeMyselfAndI

February 19, 2008 - 3:24am

Its $195 I don't really have (Credit card) But will hafta see what happens.

All I feel is he will offer me surgery or pessary, but we will see.

The line drawings i feel would help - Its easier to see if you have a layover pic of in posture out of posture kinda thing you can relate (on a flabby body pic would help)

Time will tell

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

MeMyselfAndI

February 19, 2008 - 7:36am

I am hoping he will elaborate a little - But guess as he has not said anything helpful bar the surgery thing I am not really happy about paying £150 to be told this in person :-(

Just hafta find a way to deal with this myself I guess or give in to pessary...

My mail to him at bottom and his reply at top etc...
He is not a man of many email words I have noticed... And my reply to that above his (so start from the bottom and work up etc)
I will add any reply if i get another one later.
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Thank you for your reply. So there is nothing else I can do bar the pessaries or surgery? And what grade would you say my cystocele is if it peeks out a little?

Unlikely to do much harm (the tampons) meaning no harm if changed regularly?

Could you elaborate a bit please.

Many Thanks
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The silicone device may well slide out; tampons work well for most women and are unlikely to do much harm.Regular changes are a good thing

You probably cannot get rid of the prolpase once it is present. Some women find relief with pelvic floor exercises.

often people opt for surgery!

---------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Just a couple of questions
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:03:32 +0000

Dear Mr D************,

I am hoping you would be able to answer a couple of Questions for me if you would be so kind.

I have a primary cystocele (not sure what grading it would be, it peeks outside about maybe a cm tops when I am stood up alot)? Is that a grade2? Most of the time it sits just inside the Introitis and causes me no problems, when I go shopping or am on feet alot etc that is when I notice it more because it is peeking etc.

I also have a small rectocele and a uterine prolapse. I have no problems with any of them bar the cystocele peeks every now and then - More close to period time, if I am stood up alot.

Are there any other different ways to deal with this that are not pessaries or surgeries?

I have no pain at all with this, the only thing I feel is a 'weirdness' whan having stood alot, which I assume is the cystocele peeking or trying to...

I have found when I wear tampons I feel much better, nothing peeks, as the 'doorway' is closed, and I feel totally normal again.

I found the below online - It is for stress incontinence but is like a silicone tampon, would this be bad to use in the long run? (I am 40 on my Birthday and the thoguht of pessares stretching my insides for up to another 40 years scares me that there would eventually not be one large enough, as I know they just stretch things etc etc) Would it do any damage to use a tampon or this item when you know you will be standing alot or for exercising? Obviously you wouldnt wear a tampon for days on end etc cos of toxic shock, I am wondering if it might cause anything else I should know about..

The silicone thing can be read about here...

http://www.incoshopco.uk/incostress-2-p.asp

Basically I would like to know what else I can do to help myself without having a surgery or a pessary as they worry me.

Many Thanks for your time and attention I

Sue

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

ATS

February 19, 2008 - 8:34am

I take it from his brief reply that a lot of women use tampons to help alleviate symptoms?

He certainly is not a man of many words!

I will have to pluck up the courage and try the tampon as things were really bad last night and I was relieved to go to bed in the end. Dreaded getting up this morning but haven't really done very much and not been on my feet a lot so not as bad but time will tell as the day wears on.

Just turned down another bike ride as I didn't want to upset things and end up feeling like I did last night again - no thank you!

I hope he gets back to you.

Anita

MeMyselfAndI

February 19, 2008 - 3:12pm

So I just got a reply
_________________________________________________

peeking out a little sound very descriptive to me - do not worry about grading sysytem - there are several. The tampons are a low risk treatment and work for you. Operations have more risks and complications - speak to your surgeon for more info of his/her complication rates! No treatment is without risk
---------------------------------------------------

My reply to him =
to be honest if i decided to have surgery YOU would be my surgeon - So I ask what are your risks and complications :-) And are there ANY other things one can do to help a prolapse (Which I am assuming you would grade as a grade 2 or 3)
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Hehe - That might get him to give more real answers - You never know your luck (I dont wanna be slashed up at all)

------------------------------------------------------

Thanks so very much for your replies

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

ATS

February 19, 2008 - 4:42pm

It will be interesting to see what he says after your reply.

louiseds

February 19, 2008 - 6:28pm

Hi Sue

Well, they were a bit predictable weren't they? I wonder whether you really expected that he would have a magic bullet that nobody else knew about. That's not saying, "I told you so", simply that it is really hard to stop looking for the impossible when you know the impossible is still impossible. I guess for you it is the niggling feeling of the almost constant presence of something that you would rather was not there, the desire for it to be not there, that is so annoying. How you respond to that will probably determine how well you cope with the niggling in the longer term.

Just wondering if you have ever tried a support garment, if you really do want to spend that 195 pounds you don't have. I don't know how expensive a V2 support belt is, but it might give you a rest from the niggling, particularly round period time. You could buy some damned good lingerie for 195 pounds too, or a lot of very good chocolate or very good wine. Hmmm.

The other interesting comment I picked up from his replies was that there are different grading systems. Isn't that just typical of salesmen (not meant to be a sleight on the man)? It is just like women's clothing sizes. Nothing is absolute, everything is relative. There is no way to compare one woman's experience with that of another. All those specific numbers with their precise descriptions mean is that, "This one I just diagnosed is worse or better, or much worse or much better than the last one." More blinding with unscientific science. No wonder we get different diagnoses from different doctors, and no wonder our different responses to different grades of prolapse are so variable and frustrating. We are not actually meant to be able to make sense of it. It is all just secret doctor code for worse or better.

Better to stay away from doctors altogether once you know you have POP, methinks!

Cheers

Louise

Zelda

February 19, 2008 - 8:30pm

Sincerely,
Zelda

MeMyselfAndI

February 20, 2008 - 2:46am

Well maybe that is why I held nofaith in the Dr, they are only able to do what they are taught - And they seem to be taught surgeries in the main.

Oh well just proved to myself that he knows nothing I don't
His latest reply (Bit of a final one by the sound of it)

He said...

find attached my information sheet

If you need any further information, please make an appointment to see me

Thanks

My reply to that.....

Unfortunately I cannot open that attachment, but I noticed it is called 'vaginal hysterectomy and repair operation' which I would not be having.
Thank You
-------------------------------------------------------

I am wondering WHERE in out talk did I mention HYSTERECTOMY?!?

I will hafta find a way to open his wordpad thing - So I can tell what it says.

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

MeMyselfAndI

February 20, 2008 - 2:55am

Treatment of Prolapse
Vaginal Repair Operations and Vaginal Hysterectomy

Information sheet for patients

BACKGROUND

Prolapse can be treated with surgery or ring pessaries. Some women will chose to have nothing done and put up with their symptoms. Pelvic floor exercises may provide some relief if the prolapse is not too severe. Sometimes the prolapse will worsen with time. It is difficult to predict how quickly or if prolapse will worsen. Childbirth, chronic coughing and constipation may cause prolapse. People with prolapse may have inherited weak tissues.

Some women will chose to have a ring pessary. This is a plastic support that fits in the vagina and holds the prolapse back in place. A ring pessary is a good option for elderly women or those unwilling to have surgery. A ring pessary needs changing every four to six months. You should not feel a ring pessary but it may be noticed during intercourse. Sometimes different rings are needed to find the correct size. If the ring is too big it will be uncomfortable. If the ring is too small it will fall out. Occasionally it can cause problems with irritation and vaginal discharge. If your health is not very good or you do not wish to have an operation a ring pessary may be a good choice. Also a ring pessary may be used to control your symptoms while you are awaiting surgery.

The repair operation has been used for many years to treat women with prolapse. A repair operation usually helps in treating the common symptoms of prolapse which are a lump in the vagina and a dragging sensation. These symptoms may be worse at the end of the day and after standing. Patients often complain of "something coming down". Sometimes urinary frequency and urgency (a need to rapidly pass urine) may be the only symptoms of prolapse.

In some women it is quite apparent in clinic that as well as a prolapse of the front and back wall of the vagina that there is also a prolapse of the uterus (womb). If there is uterine prolapse the uterus is also best removed at the same time as having a repair operation. This is called a vaginal hysterectomy. If the womb (uterus) is left in place there is more chance of having a recurrent prolapse at a later date. It is possible to leave the uterus in place if a woman has not completed her family. In some women we only know whether the uterus will need removing at the time of the operation.

Urinary symptoms may be associated with prolapse and special operations may be needed at the same time as a prolapse repair to control urinary problems. Mr ***** will have discussed this with you and he will be able to give you a likely chance of which symptoms will be improved and which may stay the same.

SUCCESS

Approximately 80% of women will have a long-term cure of their prolapse symptoms. However, 20% of women will need to have further surgery for prolapse at a later date. A few women will need further surgery within 1 year. Recurrent prolapse may be due to continued factors which have caused the prolapse eg constipation and weak tissues.

TECHNIQUE

The operation generally takes around 45 minutes to perform. If you need a vaginal hysterectomy the whole operation takes about one hour. You will be in the operating theatre and away from the ward for much longer than this.

The operation is usually performed with a general anaesthetic but it you wish to stay awake the procedure can be performed with a spinal anaesthetic (injection in your back). If you choose a spinal anaesthetic we can give you something to make you calm and relaxed. A spinal anaesthetic avoids drugs which can cause sickness.

Your operation will be performed by stitching in the vagina. In 1% of women the operation will not be concluded via the vagina and women will also have a cut on their abdomen. One percent of women will need to return to theatre for serious complications such as bleeding. You will be given an antibiotic at the time of operation to reduce the risks of infection. A serious risk of the operation is a pelvic abscess which may need hospital readmission and antibiotics. At the time of the operation you will have compression stockings on your legs and compression of your calves to reduce the risks of getting a clot in your legs. You may also be given medication to thin the blood.

Serious risks include damage to the bowel or bladder but fortunately this is extremely rare.

RECOVERY

The recovery from any operation is variable for different women. If you work you should allow six weeks to recover. Some women will take longer to recover especially if they have a very active job. You do not want to resume vigorous activities too early as this may compromise the chance of a good success from your operation.

You will have a catheter tube in your bladder for 48 hours after the operation. When this is removed some women will have difficulty passing urine and a few women will need a catheter tube for a longer time.

You should not perform any heavy lifting for at least six weeks after the operation. You should not drive your car until you have been checked over by a doctor at your postoperative visit and been cleared. You should not have intercourse until you have been checked over after your operation.

Some degree of pain is common after the operation. Some women will have a vaginal discharge after the operation. This is while the tissues are healing and the stitches are dissolving. If the discharge becomes smelly you should see your GP and you may be given a course of antibiotics. Urinary tract infection complicates 15% of operations. This often causes rushing to the toilet or frequent urination. Burning when passing water is also a common symptom of urinary infection. If you think you have a urinary infection you should go and see your GP who can test this you. Serious complications are unusual after this operation but 2% of women will need a blood transfusion due to blood loss. Some women will have discomfort after intercourse while the vagina is healing. Rarely this is persistent and will need further treatment. One percent of women will need further minor procedures for scarring in the vagina or poor healing after the initial operation.

If you have any questions please ask your surgeon

But I also read this on his 'journal' online...

Four hundred and twenty-six surgeons identified as performing TVT in the United Kingdom in the year ended 1 January 2002 were sent a postal questionnaire to identify the technique employed and the complications encountered. An 81% response rate was achieved. Over 7000 TVT operations were reported. Large numbers of surgeons perform a small number of operations each year. A variety of different surgical techniques and anaesthetics are used. Bladder perforations have been reported by 44% and de novo bladder overactivity by 37% of surgeons. Tape erosion is seen in 0.33%. Twenty-eight per cent of surgeons have seen voiding abnormalities that persist for more than 6 weeks. Fifty-seven per cent of surgeons perform short-term follow-up only. The operation is performed in a variety of different ways, by surgeons with variable experience and volumes of work. The different surgical techniques have not been evaluated prospectively and complications are seen more commonly than originally reported.

Well - That's that then.

Look into the eyes - They hold the key...
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Zelda

February 20, 2008 - 9:39am

Why are you tormenting yourself with this ? Smacking your head on this wall is NOT going to change the wall.
Love,
Zelda

louiseds

February 20, 2008 - 6:56pm

Thanks for posting this Sue. I think that those women who have thoroughly digested the chapter in Saving the Whole Woman about all the surgical procedures will have read this info sheet and thought "Huhh?" several times during reading it. It looks to me like a sales pitch a spider would use to a fly ("You might get your feet and wings a little entangled in my web, but this isn't usually a problem in the longer term!"). In the info sheet there are a lot of 'minor' problems that he lists but he does try and make them sound as if the risk rates are very low, and the consequences minor, and largely repairable. In your dreams!!

His online journal entry says it all really, and it is strange that he is still using this info sheet, despite having written contrary things in his journal. The survey is for the year ended 1 Jan 2002, so it is quite old, and would have given him ample opportunity to update his info sheet. The other thing to note is that he talks about long term cure (!) results being 80%. Just remember that long term in medical speak is 5 years only. There are very few medical research programmes that monitor past 5 years. What about the 40% of women who have hysterectomies developing vaginal vault prolapse? Oh, perhaps half of them only happen in the sixth year, so they don't count!

If he was selling a toy for children instead of a set of surgical procedures for women he would be dragged through the consumer legislation and spat out naked and beaten, for peddling (what I read as) such misleading information. How do they get away with peddling such crap???

Buyer beware is all I can say.

Cheers

Louise

Grandma Joy

February 20, 2008 - 11:04pm

I needed that!!! (Smacking your head on this wall is NOT going to change the wall.) I had an "aha" moment when I read that! Of course, it was about other issues, not prolapse, but I immediately stopped agitating over a couple of issues and went happily on my way today doing what I needed to do! It also made me think of you several times and I would just grin to myself and say "thank you" even though you didn't hear it.

Thanks again.
Love,
Grandma Joy

MeMyselfAndI

February 21, 2008 - 8:28am

Yep, it was kind of an eye opener, that his journal says a lot of things differently to the sales pitch attachment.

Suffice to say I cancelled my £150 appointment to see him!

All I need to do is to stop it peeking when I am standing, I have been looking at my posture all the time and the more I try to 'perfect' it - The worse I feel... So I will just try to plod through it and see where it takes me I guess.

I am still seeing my own Dr - As I have this weird 'tender' patch under right arm on side of breast so I wanna get that looked at (Praying this is NOT yet another something I hafta go through am somewhat sick of somethings at moment)

Maybe in a few weeks it (POP) will feel differently. A very heavy period arrived yesterday, and I am only about 2 weeks on from Cystoscopy thing, so maybe still healing from that being manhandled? Hope so.

Just hafta find a way to get through this as I am not becomgin a Guinea Pig for him to stitch up left right and centre!

Not doing any exercise at the moment (Funnily I have lost a few pounds, Hmmmmm)

Just sitting around vegetating which I find a bit boring to say the least...

I can handle being prolapsed, just not the continual peeking, so if it will just raise itself up so it's at the door but not actively peeking out I can handle that (Thats where it was before - Just about)...

Either way - I am still waiting for the results of the Cystoscopy thing... Maybe when all this worry ends I might (You never know your luck) feel relatively human again.

Either way - His attachment said exactly what I expected - To avoid Doctors, they say one thing to your face and another thing to anyone in 'the know' Which to me is very misleading - And should be sueable!

Not a wonder I avoid them 99% of the time and even when I am really sick I try to get through it on my own.

I don't want much from life ya know - But to feel relatively normal in the small time I am stood up would be nice... Just hafta pray for that one methinks.

I must admit I do look at women on TV and think 'I bet you don't have a prolapse' - They very well might - They aren't gonna advertise the fact I spose...

Just need to find a way to get through this. Still don't understand why posture is no longer helping me :'(

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference
Look into the eyes - They hold the key.
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Zelda

February 21, 2008 - 9:32am

that comment was helpful to someone, because I kinda worried that it may have
stepped on MMI's toes, we all have a process to go through and I don't want to judge that.
We are so conditioned to believe in their carrot. I guess I've just gotten completely disillusioned
with these dolts/doctors.
It makes me sad when I see the hope that somehow it will be different with a different doc.
The lousy solutions offered are all the same, some are just bigger Dick-heads.
Zelda

MeMyselfAndI

February 21, 2008 - 10:33am

No matter what it still leaves me in a MESS trying to deal with this thing

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference
Look into the eyes - They hold the key.
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Zelda

February 21, 2008 - 11:32am

You have been on my mind and I would so like to help you see
the bell curve I've experienced with my POP and so many other women here,
seem to.
First comes horror, drama and overwhelming grief, then comes denial and
stoicism, then comes more even lower days and your fate seems sealed, then comes
compassion first for others and then by proxy - for yourself. That is when much
started changing for me. All along I've done my very best to maintain posture
as it was all there seemed to be to really start with, and all the chaos of my life
could incorporate. Gradually my body is changing, my butt has changed it's shape
a bit and things are slowly shifting. Posture has become more automatic and easy to
maintain, and hence MORE good days. Not to mention all the neck and back aches I
used to have are all but gone.
Hang in there honey and be good to yourself.
Hugs,
Zelda

MeMyselfAndI

February 21, 2008 - 11:42am

When I came here I went all through that. I got into posture and it was amazing and it went back in and I could all but forget aout it and LIVE my life once more (As far as i can already being disabled)

Then after about two years (I think its about that long - maybe more) IT arrived back (Late last November) and has not gone away since even though I am checking my posture all the time and reading all the blue STWW book wtc wtc

This is why I am lost -NOt because I do not know what posture is - MORE because I DO, and I am mystified as to why it has suddenly changed, and I have read and re read everything and still I am plagued by this thing.

If it were as easy as posture - I would find that easy. But posture is not helping me now and that breaks my heart more than mere words can say.

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference
Look into the eyes - They hold the key.
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

Soupy

February 21, 2008 - 12:21pm

it might be worth spending some of that money you wont be spending on the visit to the gynae on some alternatives?

i've had reasonable success with homeopathy so far..or if you dont want to go see one you could try a stab in the dark sepia 30 and see if that helps.....

i'm off to see a bowen therapist on sat,she feels she can help too.. i've been advised to give it 3 sessions and will know if it helps or not by 3 sessions...

zelda already mentioned she felt accupuncture had helped her...

you can get several visits to these for as much as a single visit to that dr and will probably come away feeling a damn sight better, at least mentally if not physically.

ATS

February 21, 2008 - 1:06pm

Let me know how you get on with the Bowen Therapy.

Anita

ATS

February 21, 2008 - 1:10pm

I know where you are in your desperation with this thing and how incredibly frustrating it is. I agree with the others that if we can't do surgery and we don't want to try pessaries (yet) and posture etc is not working then why not try some alternative therapies. I quite like the idea of accupuncture and will wait to hear from Soupy about the Bowen Therapy. I use the Maya Massage on a daily basis and I have used homeopathy in the past for other things and also Thought Field Therapy for emotional stress.

Spend that £150 on yourself and make yourself feel as good as you can, if not physcially then mentally. You deserve it girl!

Hugs to you Sue.

MeMyselfAndI

February 21, 2008 - 1:14pm

I don't actually have that £150 in cash you know. It would have been on Credit Card and I hate making that so I cannot pay it at end of month - I like to always clear it so I never pay interest!

I don't know of anyone around here who does that maya massage stuff (I dont even know what that is to be honest)

I don't know of anyone who does accupuncture either. Will hafta look into that one as it's menna be good for lots of things (Is it expensive?)

I don't know. I am just *thinks of right word* Nope - Can't think of right word bar - *gutted* that the posture has seemed to have ceased working and I cannot understand that?

Guess something (i hope) will turn up happening in the end...

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference
Look into the eyes - They hold the key.
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/img/maddy544x150Banner.jpg

ATS

February 21, 2008 - 1:26pm

Forgot you mentioned the £150 was going to be charged. I'm the same, have to charge everything!

I found my therapist for the Maya massage by visiting www.arvigomassage.com, I saw Hilary Lewin in Surrey who is lovely. You are taught to do the massage yourself which is easy and during appointments you get massaged. You only need to see a therapist once just to learn the technique if you want. I am supposed to go back and see Hilary at some point but haven't got the money right now. I think I paid £60 for my first appointment which was 1 1/2 hours.

I haven't ever had any accupuncture done so I myself will have to find someone if I want to try that out. Not sure how much they charge either.

I can completely understand where you are coming from having felt you licked this thing with posture for the last 2 years and now its back. Hopefully in time it will go back again. Once you recover completely from your biopsy you can start using tampons again to hopefully make you feel more comfortable.

Anita