My POP brought me by...

Hi Blue

Pick yourself up, dust yourself down, start all over again!!

Welcome to the Forums, and welcome to tomorrow. I can see that you are a positive, gutsy and energetic woman who has had a sock in the guts. This will not defeat you. You can live with these organs of yours that have repositioned themselves (they and you have not become deformed).

You are not a freak, just a woman with an uninformed doctor who is probably as scared as you were, because prolases only seem to bring doctors puzzlement and money, when I think they would rather be able to just wave a magic wand and fix them up, which they can't! Doctors can be very useful people, but sometimes they are lacking. The trick is in knowing when to believe them. You obviously realise this, or you wouldn't have ended up here. My doctor is not perfect. Neither am I. He knows more about medicine than I do. I know more about my body than he does. We work together, and I use other health helpers as well.

Fear not, you can live with this, and you are already learning to tuck your organs away, all by yourself, which is the secret to getting on with your life, and working out how you can rebuild the dream of doing all those wonderful things in the future.

I'm glad your book is on its way. I hope it is the second edition, as it is much more clearly written, and has some useful extras, as well as an enhanced anatomy chapter, which makes the anatomical side of it easier to understand. The second edition also has a ballet workout, which is great whole body exercise, that reinforces all the muscles essential for WW posture, and makes you feel good, flexible and strong. However, the first edition is good too.

You will also need your brain for this, as you will need to learn how to get stuff done without further damaging your body's supporting structure. eg, roll big plant pots around on the edge of their base to get them from point A to point B. Get yourself a bag trolley for other heavy moving jobs. You are obviously a tough, independent person who doesn't like to be held up in what you are doing by large, heavy objects. And that is not going to change, eh?

How are you going with the posture? Sometimes it takes a while to get it right, but I found some benefits immediately evident. Nearly four years after starting WW posture I am still fine tuning it, but it is still getting better. The fine tuning is to do with some deterioration at the bottom of my neck which I think is the root cause of some upper back, shoulder and neck pain and stiffness, but the lower back and hip pain that I have had for many years has almost gone.

I am 55 and very near menopause. I have just had a period, and for the first time in years my cervix was higher than ever before. Normally just like you, peaking when not in posture, about 1cm inside when standing properly. This last week it has been about two knuckles inside. I am over the moon, as you can imagine. I know it won't stay up that high for ever, but I now know it is possible for an extended period of time. I am normally very physically active, but have not been so much in the last few weeks as I have a dicky wrist at the moment, so heavy gardening and stuff is off the menu for a while.

Well done on the weight loss. Hopefully Wholewoman will see your whole being turned around and you will be able to get that body of yours back on track and fit again for fulfilling your dreams. Just remember overall progress will probably be slow, two steps forward, one step back. The body is adjusting all the time. You make an adjustment. It reacts. You respond. etc. Don't expect miracles, just slow, steady, jerky progress. Once you understand from the book how your structure is meant to work it is easy to comply with behaviours and techniques that are logical, but sometimes awkward at first, but after a lifetime of doing it wrong, what do we expect?

I'm sure you will call again.

Cheers

Louise

I'm glad you've found this community. I like your phrase, "whether in denial now or again seeing the light" -- that's a familiar place to me too. I take it a day at a time. I agree it certainly would be good "to wake up with everything neatly tucked back up". I'm really sorry you've had this loss, and are having to grapple so hard with it. I don't think that not being able to jump puddles with your little grand's will make you any less a cool grandma to them, though. What the little ones most like is someone who pays real attention to them, something that their busy young parents can often use help with. In other words, you still ARE "a mom, a grandmom, a sister, a friend, a neighbor, a gardener, a crafter, a reader, a hiker, a biker, a walker, a dreamer", and even still "... a lover of life". I know you know that, and I know that your grappling and your post is about getting across the gap so that you can feel that again.

Welcome, and don't feel that you're lurking by reading and not posting. Women know when it's time to speak. I'm glad you spoke tonight because it's good that you're reaching out, and because it helps me to read someone put so eloquently many of the feelings I've had too.

We'll get through it together, with the fantastic information we get here and one another's support. "Moving through what's left" of our lives can be more joyous, more conscious and more aware than it would ever have been without prolapse as a wake-up call.

Congratulations on your weight loss. I think you'll find that exercise is still very possible and very necessary, and that you'll find the ways to do it that work for you now. You can use the same motivation and determination that you used to lose the weight.

I'm not minimizing how you're feeling. We have to feel all of that. But I hear much wisdom and joy in your voice, and these things are not destroyed by prolapse. Hold onto the hope. There's every reason to have it. Life is still a beautiful adventure. It is NOT a given that the condition can only worsen. It IS possible to improve our general health, improve our condition, and avoid the unnecessary and dangerous risks of surgery.

Keep sharing, it's good to know you're with us.

Blessings,
Ellen

I don't often get a chance to check out the vagina's of my buds or the ladies in the grocery store- but I am confident that POP is very common. Talking with other women and sharing why I sit and stand the way I do (man you would think no one would notice but I get comments on my posture weekly) I have learned that most women have some symptom or another of POP and I am so happy to share WW techniques with them and to direct them to this site. And selfishly I am glad to be in good company. I am convinced that there is some real settling that happens to a vagina after birthing babies and not just the loss of tone etc. that everyone talks about-and I have come to think about it in the same way I think about wrinkles or droopy breasts-just one of the signs a body has made it through a little bit of life.
If you are curious about what kind of prolapse you have you can search for the self exam article- posted under articles.
Now about the pictures on the internet. Here is the deal- many of the pictures have been taken right before surgery. I imagine that the Doctor has in one way or another made the prolapse more noticeable just for the ability to see what s/he is dealing with. I believe if you looked at some pictures real women have posted of their vaginas you will find that the POP is not such a scary thing to see. There was a site posted here a while back for this type of picture.
What else can I tell you? I guess crazy fun granny would be cool- but as a kid I think cookie baking, story reading, quiet nature walking grandmother is simply a beautiful change of pace. In our home now Daddy is for crazy running around wresting lifting activities.
I'd like to knock out that silly doctor who didn't talk with you and had you feeling like a freak. How absurd.
I have had pretty good success with the techniques developed by Christine Kent. And also with an abdominal isolation exercise I stumbled upon. I also choose not to lift very heavy objects alone and make multiple trips with things like groceries and laundry. I play on the floor with my kids frequently. Sometimes I do things I simply can't resist and pay for it but my symptoms always resolve over time when I return to my good behavior.
I am glad you decided to post here. I will be looking forward to hearing how you are doing.

Blue --

Good for you for letting the heavier stuff be done by others more able to push and lift. Like you, I prided myself for decades on "doing my share", and would lift and carry more than I was really able. I did not know I could be doing myself harm. Now I let my husband and co-workers do the heavy stuff at work. They are perfectly willing, and I find it frees me up to do OTHER stuff that they don't have time to do, or don't know how to do. The result is more specialization and a more productive business. It needed to happen anyway and yet I couldn't bring myself to let the physical stuff go until I was forced to do so.

We can use the closing of one set of abilities as an opportunity to explore other abilities that have gone undeveloped. At least that's what I'm trying to do.

Isn't it great to have a supportive spouse, I'm happy for you in that.

Ellen

Well said Ellen. I think every woman needs to ask herself if it is a good thing to literally bust her guts doing heavy stuff if it is not strictly necessary. So many of us have gone through our lives being able to do anything, whether it was necessary or not.

Blokes get bad backs from doing stupidly heavy stuff (being the hero?) while women get busted internal supports from doing stupidly heavy stuff (proving something?).

For me, I used to lift it if I could! I would squat deeply, stack my vertebrae on top of each other, brace my abdominals, then lift with my thighs. Max pressure on the pelvic floor. Now I stick my butt out and up, and bend my knees to a half squat and shake my organs into my loose belly, then pin them there with my sacrum before lifting with my leg muscles. I can lift a bit less than before but feel little pelvic floor pressure.

If I can't do it that way, I get somebody stronger to do it, or rethink the whole task. If only I had learned these new ways when I was a strong teenager with a total belief in my own immortality!

Cheers

Louise

Blue,

Just reading the latest posts, and I saw your conversation with Louise and Ellen and I just want to welcome you too. I'm 57, been through crazypause, and have a pop that's up and down like a roller coaster. I'm active like you and just came back from Florida visiting my grandchildren, 17, 4, 2.

One thing to keep in mind is if you have not had a period since November, you are doing the crazypause thing, and there is a pernicious little fear involved that will make your usual bravado toward this nearly emotionally invisible. Somehow the tidal wave of hormone exchanges going on triggers a horrible fear that makes you feel like you're an inch tall and everyone around you has a sledge hammer. This could be contributing to your anxiety about this pop thing.

I have the same anxiety about doctors you have. Hate them;like walking into the little house of horrors; rather be burned at the stake then go to a doctor.

At this stage in your life you are probably experiencing vaginal dryness even if it doesn't feel that way to the touch. Dry will make it seem so much worse. I've been using Replens and it's super. During the vacation, I used this product in teh a.m. and I didn't even notice the pop all day. Tomorrow it's 8 hours on cement floors, so we'll see how soon the droop returns.

I'm as involved as you are with many interests and many loves. This thing is manageable with some suggestions from others who have done this or that. Posture is a must.

Louise what did you mean by lower neck issues?

At any rate, I feel your distress. Know that we are all distressed from time to time, but the ladies here are always willing to put us back on track.

Good to meet you,

Judy

Hi Judy

Welcome back. Hope Florida treated you well.

Lower neck / upper back. Hmm, seems to be the new theme for me. I do have some 'arthritic' deterioration at the base of my neck, and a stiff or sore neck is pretty normal for me. I have not yet cracked the combination for dealing with it. Stretching has a part. Massage has a part. Bowen has a part. Wing flapping has a part. Dance (bellydance and ballet workout) has a part to play too, in keeping that part of my body supple. My sore wrist (for over a month now and not getting better) has really put a damper on physical activity for me. I am still doing a bellydance class once a week, but my normal physical activity at home is related to doing stuff, and a sore wrist really hampers me. Good grief. Anyone reading this would think I am a cot case. I am trying to at least do some dance each day, and lots of wing flapping type things to mobilise my neck and shoulders. I really don't think the neck/upper back problems are related to posture. They have always bothered me, right back to early adulthood.

I do not think they are caused by WW posture, but I was rather hoping that WW posture would help alleviate the problem, and it is not.

I think the Feldenkrais has solved the lower back problems I have had for many years, and it may just be that the problem is slowly moving upwards. The upper back may just be the next bit to get sorted out.

However, I too share your reticence about going to the doctor, and being told the bleeding obvious, ie menopausal, getting older, can't expect the body to take as much as it used to, etc and being given a course of corticosteroids for something that I suspect they will not be able to diagnose. All these factors may have something to do with the neck and wrist, but I am not happy about the prospect of paying out gap payments to be told what I already know. I think I will go to a sports medicine clinic to try and find out exactly is the problem with the wrist. At the moment it is hamstringing me with all my other activity.

My nettles have germinated out in the paddock, and are now about 6inches high and have adult leaves, so I can now harvest some for tea making. This may help the upper back and neck, and may even help the wrist.

So that's the story. I am off to find some gloves and long-handled scissors to harvest nettles.

Cheers

Louise

Dear Louise,

First of all…welcome, Blue…you will most likely be feeling quite well in a few weeks or so – I continue to run and jump on a regular basis, btw.

Louise - I am sorry to hear about your aches and pains – the neck symptoms of which I’m all too familiar with. Let me explain so that you might find something useful from my experience.

My horrendous neck pain started in my late forties – and was actually what drove me to develop the posture concurrently with the pelvic improvement I had experienced after taking up classical Indian dance.

Like the rest of you, I am a “force” when it comes to getting things put where I want them and I also move so fast that sometimes I don’t notice things creeping up…like over the top neck pain.

So…one morning I opened my eyes in bed and looked up at the ceiling, which seemed to be slowly turning around in circles. When I moved my head to the side I encountered the most terrifying of sensations…like my brain was an unbalanced load spinning around the washing machine of my skull.

I thought it had to be inner ear stuff (if not a brain tumor – it was really scary) and so tried to make appointments with the only ear/nose/throat specialists in town. Neither of them would see me before I went through an exceedingly expensive test - a machine that can tell if the problem is coming from the ear or the brain – and even then it was weeks out.

Fortunately we have a friend who recommended his acupunturist - an older Chinese man with lots of experience. I made an appointment that day – walking was not easy and I was constantly nauseated. When we met, the doctor said that although it could be something more serious, most times these symptoms arise from the muscles at the base of the skull becoming so very tight that they compress one of the cranial nerves that sits at the very bottom of the head. Welcome to VERTIGO – unlike any dizzyness you’ve ever had! He said in his broken English, “If the treatment is good, it should work immediately.”

Well…what transpired next was pretty funny. First of all, his office was not like we’re used to in the States. The waiting room chairs were all tattered kitchen chairs and let’s just say “décor” was not a priority.

I wanted my husband to come with me, which was fine with the doctor, and we giggled nervously as I climbed into the gown I was given – which had what looked like several cigarette burns in it.

The doctor came in and had me lie on my stomach and then he did his thing – several needles throughout my back and neck, which toward the end of the treatment he connected to an electric amplifier. I didn’t like the feeling of electricity coursing through my central nervous system, but tried to relax all the same. After that he unhooked the juice and applied a few balls of compressed herbs (”moxibustion”), which he proceeded to set on fire – hence the burns in the gowns. After that he removed everything, sat me up and gave me a strong massage.

I lifted my head – turned it from side to side – and the vertigo was completely gone! I was so very appreciative and amazed at this marvelous healing method. Unfortunately, his office disappeared a short time later and I’ve always hoped he wasn’t frowned upon by a public that might’ve seen him as too different.

I also saw an ayurvedic practitioner around this time who told me these symptoms were descriptive of “vata” imbalance and it was true that we were in the vata season and I was eating a lot of vata-imbalancing foods. So, this neck pain/vertigo thing surfaces each fall/winter if I’m under too much stress and not carefully watching my diet – although never to the degree of that first bout. Whenever I feel the slightest of those sensations, I pay very careful attention to my health and have been able to avert more serious problems.

I think the nettle will be very good for you – and I would also seek out a well-trained acupuncturist.

Cheers,

Christine

Thanks Christine for your experiences and thoughts. I know that the last time I had acupuncture for a dicky wrist it did fix it, after two treatments and then a couple of weeks, so I do have some faith in acupuncture. I have been tossing acupuncture around as a possibility for the wrist and for the neck/back as well. With your extra encouragement I will look into it.

Re the vertigo, I have experienced vertigo first thing in the morning, particularly at times of stress, eg in-laws visiting, also during the day related to a difficult workplace situation. It is not nice at all. It could be that there was some neck involvement then, though I can't remember any particular neck involvement. This was some years ago.

Anyway, thanks for your input. I will let you know the outcomes.

Cheers

Louise

Hi Blue

I really think you are right about knowledge Blue, particularly as there seems to be nobody out there except Christine (and now us, thankfully) who has this knowledge, and will volunteer it freely. This knowledge is kept from us by the 'society' which entrusts, by default, gynaecologists to be the custodians of knowledge about our pelvic area and its organs, and the fitness, fashion and beauty industries to tell us what our bodies 'should' look like. In its place we are offered surgical techniques that will permanently stop us from using WW techniques properly, and have us enslaved to out gynaecological surgery for life.

The modern androgenous, youthful body shape for all ages of women is as ridiculous as the use of corsets and rib removal surgery to create wasp waists and high, hemispherical breasts. No doubt we will look back in a couple of hundred years and laugh uproariously at the beginning of the third millenium as an era of human folly in many respects.

Pelvic repair surgery is about as logical as amputating the foot and lower leg of a person who has sprained their ankle, and giving them a prosthetic foot that has no ankle.

It is a scary concept that the appointed 'custodians of fixing dis-ease' would limit their own knowledge in order to create a market for their services. Cynical outlook on my part? Perhaps, though I prefer to look at it as realistic in practice, which is what makes it so scary!

Re learning posture, it is normal to have an adjustment period at first, when you might have some pain and discomfort. Your whole body has to adjust to different orientation. What's more, your brain needs to adjust too, and will probably try and revert to your old posture. That's why it takes a while to truly get it. After nearly 4 years I am still trying to overcome the holding in of my belly, a conscious practice of forty years duration. I am persevering because I know my prolapses instantly move forward when I relax my belly. I know it is normal to have a bit of a belly as a mature woman, and particularly after childbirth, when I see pictures of women from cultures where few clothes are worn, or artworks from an era prior to the 20th century, and I see their natural body shapes.

If WW posture was artificial, and there was no historical evidence of its existence I would be very sceptical about its long term use, but the evidence is there. A picture tells a thousand words. It is worth persevering to get it right.

Cheers

Louise