Can prolapse shift our bones?

welcome to the site and congratulations on the new baby!
I'll try to answer some of your questions..

re:prolapse and bones shifting. it is more likely that your bones have shifted either causing the prolapse or as the prolapse developed, than the prolapse causing the bones to shift. bones shift with pg and labor, bones shift with age and types of activity. inner organs have no choice but to shift alongside their supports.

re: feet. I know there was a discussion (or two) about this here a long while ago. flat feet oftentimes develop during pg due to hormones causing ligaments to relax as well as the weight gain. I sometimes get that painful feeling you describe in my feet, I've always just attributed it to part of my fibromyalgia, but maybe its something else entirely. somehow when I'm well rested, well fed and active, they feel better (those things tend to mitigate my fibro)

re:carrying your second baby lower. not sure if this is indicative of prior prolapse. I think most women carry the first baby highest, probably due to abdominal muscles not being all stretched out yet

my second birth was fast like yours too. fast births tend to be more intense than the slow ones, and your dd was one large baby! wtg mama!

now I think you CAN learn to live with this, and I think some degree of healing is possible. even for a busy mom like yourself. I remember when I first found my prolapse, the hardest lifestyle change for me was to give up multitasking. I used to just pop my youngest on my hip and run around doing twenty things at once, never really sitting down. it just isn't like me to let the dishes sit in the sink, kwim?
but not only was it good for my body to take things slower, but its been wonderful for my kids. me too. I've learned that the dishes aren't going anywhere and I'm (still) trying to be ok with that. In the meantime, taking the time to really *be* with my kids on the floor, or sitting with them during a meal rather than getting a head start cleaning up the kitchen makes a huge difference in the quality of our family life. well worth the trade off.

and dont' forget, the 6 week pp thing is a myth. 10 weeks is still very soon. your body's been through and ordeal and it will take some time to get back to normal. you may never have the exact same model of sportscar, but you'll be beautiful and sexy and functional nonetheless.

it takes time, but that's ok. you have all the time in the world.

{{{{{hugs}}}}}

Yeah, I pee forwards, and have for many years. I think it is a certain sign of cyctocele. I guess doctors don't tend to ask women this question. Maybe they can't think of a way of expressing the question in a dignified way, or something? Poor little darlings! Still, I guess they would be more understanding if they peed out front as normal and found that they were splashing the insides of their ankles. Then they would get some idea of how hard it is for girls to pee on the side of the road!! ;-)

Don't toddlers smell just so delightful? I think this is why I used to pick mine up all the time. Then they stick their hot, sticky little hands inside your bra in public, and smile, and you wonder why you love them so much.

Sarahlove, this WW posture can be very challenging to get right, esp if you have been using different posture for years. The lower back pain may be because you are consciously tipping your uterus forward, or your coccyx up, with your back muscles, which then get tired. It needs to be more of a whole body thing.

Try going from the ground up. Feet parallel, knees unlocked, buttocks unlocked, belly loose, breasts on display, shoulders relaxed, chin relaxed and tucked slightly. I still get upper back pain which doesn't want to go away, but I am on a different tack to sort this out. You're right. It does SUCK!! But my prolapses are good.

Cheers

Louise

how did I stop multitasking? by asking myself this question a million times a day 'which ONE thing is most important right now?'
so yeah, we used a lot of paper plates in the beginning, and I'm all for reducing my carbon footprint. but there's a time for conveniences. my dh stepped it up a bit too, and he's awesome around the house. we budgeted for some cleaning help and fewer shoes and clothes. I got used to a messy house (well, ok, I still dont' like it but I'm learning not to stress out about it) and the kids got used to pitching in. the big surprise is that even though I'm trying to take it slow and do one thing at a time, everything important still gets done. and now that I'm mindful of my posture as I move around, I'm more mindful of my emotional state too. strange, but even mundane chores become an exercise in counting my blessings. don't know how to describe it.

if your eliptical is making things worse...STOP
2.5 mo pp is really soon. at that point all I was doing was some walking outside. in posture. but remember, too, that I've been doing this posture thing for YEARS. first get the posture down, then worry about exercise. I started up normal activity gradually. I had to first feel secure that nothing was going to fall out of me. I started with brisk walking outside then on the treadmill.
and then, when I felt confident that things had stabilized, I got pg again. this time around I knew enough to take it slow after the baby. its like setting tomato plants out too early. you don't gain anything, they're too cold and they don't produce any sooner than the plants you waited until late may to transplant.
now, at 13 mo pp, I can do anything I want to do. I'm not the most athletic woman here, so maybe that's not enough for everyone, but its more than enough for me.

the peeing forward thing is not uncommon. try sitting on the toilet in the posture, see if that helps.

re: upper back pain, well that's gonna happen somewhat. after 9 mo of pg, your muscles are not what they were. everythings shifting back. carrying around 13 lb is going to have its effects. but I'd do it anyway! I find it near impossible not to carry my babies around. it goes so fast. do you have a sling? they help distribute the weight and keep your hands free. a wrap or meitai is even better because the weight goes over both shoulders.

and feel free to whine all you like. we get it.

It's been a VERY, VERY long time since I've been pp or had a newborn (18 years!!)---but I do have two grandbabies and some chronic conditions that make it severely painful to pick them up or carry them for any length of time. This prevented/prevents me from caring for them, but I refuse to not pick up or hold the youngest (12 months.) The three year old I canNOT carry, but she climbs up on me, etc. and I encourage that a LOT so I can 'love her up' as much as possible.

Anyway (sorry---started getting off topic) I wanted to share that when I do want to pick up the baby (12 mo.) I do it from a sitting position (less of a 'lift') and then I stand---but when I'm holding her---I kind of sling her belly over my shoulder (so her bottom is right by my face) and that keeps the weight distributed evenly so I can walk around with her at least a little bit. She's usually happy to look all around from that height and spy all the things she'd love to get into---and then she wants to get down and run, of course. (She's been walking since 8 months---so she's VERY mobile!) I find that carrying her this way does not strain my shoulders and neck as much.

I remember when my babies were small (I have grown kids ages 28 to 18) I hauled them around on my hip all the time while trying to pretend nothing was different and keep up with all the everyday chores and the other kids, etc. All the specialists I've been to (not for pop) have explained how this was really bad for my posture/muscles/bones and spine.

I used cloth diapers for all my kids (until I got pg with the fourth one and still had one (under two) in diapers and I "gave in" and switched to disposables---sigh...)----and remember coming home from the hospital after my second baby (difficult birth--long labor---cord wrapped around his neck--almost nine pounds---and they cut me clear through my butt, I can still feel the scar all the way up the back of my vagina) and hauling the (VERY heavy/wet) diaper pail down the stairs to the basement to rinse and wash them. I started bleeding a lot and was told to "take it easy" (no stairs, no lifting, etc.) but since I felt I had no other way to do things I did not/could not listen. (Little did I know the consequences I would live with...)

I also had a two year old who really 'acted out' when I brought the new baby home. And I'm sure you all know that "remote control parenting" does not work! There was a lot of having to pick him up and drag him away from things to enforce rules or keep someone from getting hurt. (Easier to say no lifting, etc. than to actually do it.) I'm sure this was the 'start' of whatever pop problems I now have. If I had known about this I would have insisted on more help and been more protective of my body. (We feel we are invincible when we're 22, though, huh?)

Sorry for the long-winded post---I just wanted to share that it's NOT worth it to overdo and push yourself past the point of 'OK'---listen to your body and take the time you need to heal. No one will remember the clean house or the perfect meals---what they will remember is feeling loved and having a happy mom!~smile~

Just a few thoughts from someone who "didn't listen..."

Peace,
S&G

Thanks S&G for putting this so clearly for Sarahlove. Thanks to Granolamom too. I think all of us who have been Mum to new babies and toddlers will recognise the situations S&G and Granolamom have described, and how difficult it is to 'decide between the devil and the deep blue sea'. There would not be one woman amongst our Members who has not at one stage or another, as a new Mum, thought "Oh-oh, I shouldn't have done that!"

I don't think we have to wrap ourselves in cottonwool, but the less times we are overloaded the better, and the more we can use WW posture, the better, particularly when we are early postpartum. The more we can think our way around everyday tasks that put undue strain on our recovering (or ageing) bodies, the more we can put off heavy tasks until we can hijack a man from somewhere and/or swallow our pride and ask for help, the less likely we are to suffer from worsened prolapses as a result of circumstances and stubbornness.

As Christine is always saying, "A woman's body is designed to resist prolapse." I personally think there are a lot of factors that contribute to prolapse. If you pile enough of them on top of each other, your fascial structure may suffer. One by itself is not likely to be the only cause.

Not an original quote, but "Wisdom can be defined as learning from the mistakes of others."

Cheers

Louise

Hello everyone:

I am still afraid that something else will fall or is still falling out. I just keep hoping it gets better rather than worse. Everyone here keeps stating that you can get back to your life and do most of what you used to. I hope that is true.

My 3 year old daughter was running down the hall yesterday and wanted me to chase her and I just couldn't. It broke my heart. I tell her now that she is too big for mommy to carry and I want to cry. I hate this. I keep wondering what in the hell will I be able to do as she grows older. I have been going outside and playing with her on the ground fill up sand in buckets, snuggling with her in her princess castle and playing make believe. But apparently I can't seem to make believe that I am happy. My daughter turn to me the other night and said, "Mommy, I wish you weren't so sad."

I am changing the way I eat, my exercises and how I go on about my life. With those things I have implemented I will probably live a long life. I just hope it is not a life of I just wish I could do this or if I do this then I could create this problem. I feel like I am paralized (don't think this is spelled right) by fear. I know that everyone hear is against surgery and what is currently out there scares me. But I do intend on hoping that in the future(hopefully in my lifetime) that research can find ways to address this problem and find a cure or at least a procedure that restores a very descent quality of life.

I personnally would love to here AnneH's story. It helps. Maybe because I can see that people can go on with there lives. Of course, I keep telling myself that no one really has much of a choice but to do so. I still hope against all hope though that everything will get better and the prolapses will go away.

Shiloh

I agree with this comment to a point. I truly believe there is natural settling of the pelvic organs. For women who have many children it may happen sooner- but that it happens for all women. Honestly what part of the human body doesn't sag over time and with use? I really think we are designed to all acquire "natures pessary" at some point and then to just move on to the rest of life. Honestly. I think most of the problems come with surgical intervention and restructuring of the vagina. I know this is cavalier- I just think if women were honest and not made to feel broken when they talked about it (jerks of Doctors who tell us our 30 year old vaginas are that of a 70 year old and other such nonsense) we would all come to realize just how normal a little setting is.
The best thing for the body is to move gracefully in strong WholeWoman posture.

Make her wish come true. You can do this. You can chase her down the hall. Just tell her that you want to be a camel(hands and feet with legs and arms straight and bum in the air) and that she should be one too and chase her that way. This feels great for the POP and is also a really nice leg and shoulder work out. And hold on to your hope.
Look it may very well get worse before it gets better. But it will get better. Be patient. It really does take time. In a year you will look back on this as your early days. I know in the early days I was worried about snuggling on the couch with my kids and a book (oh no I might get out of the posture) and looking back that was so silly. I slouch down and read stories for hours some days with no noticeable effect on my prolapse. Everything just seems like too much in these early days and it is hard put on a happy face when you are in total panic mode.
I did some pretty serious meditation because I would get really anxious and feel sick. The meditation really helped calm my nerves and then I could be kind to my husband and playful with my children. I know how it is to feel so upset about the prolapse you can not even enjoy the day and it's gifts. But this will pass. But while you are in it please try to realize that your vagina is just one part of you. An important part for making love and having babies, But still just one part.
Go on and grieve the loss of your perfection and then move on to the joy that is your life.
oh man. Now I am really gonna but in here but.....I think you could tell your girl that you would love to hold her- and then find a seat so she could climb up- or when out and about sit right down on the ground and give her a big squeeze and then remind her how strong her body is and how amazing it is that she can walk all by herself just like mommy (or some other silly thing) and avoid the "too big" thing if you can.
When you think about this condition in a way that highlights what you can do instead of what you can't your perspective changes a little. And right now I can do what ever I want- but that is because whatever I want has changed. I no longer want to have such a clean home all the time, I no longer want to lift the heavy cooler, I no longer want to carry the baby while I cook dinner- I don't mind if it takes me five more minutes to bring in groceries- I don't want to be the only one un-racking the dishes or carrying the laundry. What I want most is to let this body last me for the duration.

hi shiloh
I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but a few years ago I broke down and cried at the mall. we took the kids out one sunday shortly after I found this prolapse thing and I just couldn't keep up. walking was too much. so I sat on a bench and dh had a fun afternoon with the kids while I cried.
you can't rush the mourning process. you can cry, scream at the heavens 'why me', hope for it to be gone in the morning, hope for a new 'fix' to be invented, plan to exercise it away, and that's all normal. I can't tell you how, but somehow I got from that scary dark place to where I am today. plain old happy. I hope that the lifestyle changes I made bring me to a ripe old age, this is a good life I have.
loss is hard to cope with, but I don't think it necessarily means decreased quality of life. and the truth is that not only have I been coping better, but really, my prolapse has gotten smaller and I have no symptoms. so maybe alemama is onto something. maybe it really isn't any different from the laugh lines developing around my eyes. maybe it only feels that way because of what I've been conditioned to believe.

and just so you know, I can carry my 4 yo around. I couldn't in the beginning, but I can now. it takes time. stay hopeful.

Hi Sarahlove

The devil is indeed in the detail.

If I go out into the backyard when the family are all out - TMI! (we have no close neighbours) and have a standing up pee into the garden with my pelvis tilted back and my butt tucked under, I pee straight forward.

If I sit on the pan in WW posture, leaning forward a little, or straddling the pan, I pee straight down into the water in a fast, narrow stream, just like a teenaged virgin. It feels so good!!!

If I just flop down on the pan the urine will hit the ceramic in front of the water.

(Man-oh-man! I say some 'out there' things on these Forums! I wouldn't say them in public, don't fret!)

As for the manoeuvre you describe, I think it sounds a bit like Alemama's 'stomach vacuum' exercise. If it works, refine it as much as you can and use it for what it is worth.

I do agree; my prolapses are almost undetectable in the mornings, but are detectable later in the day if I am not careful, particularly standing at the kitchen bench or washing up in the evenings.

The random pinching pains are a bit of a mystery. Not related to intestines moving around? Ovulation coming up? There are so many nerves and ligaments as well in the pelvic area. It is probably quite easy to compress one momentarily with gut contents moving around. Can you make them go away by doing your exercise that you described? I would think that with a radical change in posture there is a lot of adjustment that needs to happen, probably the normal position of every joint is altered, and the equilibrium position and contraction/relaxation state of each muscle is altered as well. Diarying it might be useful, to see if you can pick up any correlations with anything, and how long it takes to stop etc.

The lower back pain might be from trying to lock your pelvis forward by contracting your long back muscles. In WW posture the pelvis just falls forwards naturally when the lower belly is relaxed, just like a full large softdrink bottle standing in a laundry bucket will flop to one side when suspended by the handle, when the bottle is allowed to tip. The thoracic area is more where the spine posture adjustment throws the breasts forward and makes a larger radius lumbar curve, and tucking the chin which makes the top of the spine more vertical rather than craning the head forwards, so the thoracic curve almost disappears altogether, but I think it is still necessary as part of the springlike structure of the spine, which allows the downward forces of a load to be transferred to the lower body without jarring. Something like that, anyway.

Try doing hip circles (move your hips in a big horizontal circle, both directions) using only the bending and straightening of your hip joints to inscribe the circle. Don't use your back or tummy muscles at all. This will probably take some practice, and you may not be able to do it at all at first. Do the lying down, described in the next paragraph first.

Then do the following one sitting down where you can plant your feet firmly on the floor with your knees slightly lower than your hips, in WW posture. Imagine you are drawing a circle on the seat underneath you, using only the pressure of your sit bones at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, your pubic bone at 12 o'clock and your coccyx at 6 o'clock. then try and go through all the numbers on the clock face. Then try and go from 12 to 6 and back, repeatedly, and the same with 9 & 3, 11 & 5, 10 & 4, 1 & 7, 2 & 8. Just play around with different combinations like 12, 1, 2, 3, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1 etc, and reverse (figure of eight), do the same thing starting at 3 and going from 6 to 12 across the centre. Concentrate on each number you pass, and go back a number and repeat it if you miss one. Don't lift your feet and don't use your back or stomach muscles at all.

You could also do the same sort of thing lying down (which is easier - do this first before you try it sitting). Lie on your back with your legs bent. Pubic bone joint is 12, top of sacrum is 6, right and left sacroiliac joints are 3 and 9. Press each number of the clock face into the floor just by straightening and bending your hip joints. Don't use your back or tummy muscles at all.

These exercises are Feldenkrais exercises that have freed me completely from lower back pain. I still do a few almost daily, cos they feel nice. It is better to learn them from an accredited teacher as there are some subtle points that I might have missed out or got a bit wrong. My brain had forgotten how to get my pelvis stable using all those little muscles described in Saving the Whole Woman.

Cheers

Louise

check out Nauli or abdominal vacuum - this is an amazing exercise and if you can do it you will find that your cystocele may go away.....mine did.
Sorry about the pain- sounds nerve related to me. Is there anyway to get a massage a few weeks in a row? I used to have that pinching pain in my tailbone and rectum sometimes- I had no clue what it was but it is gone now- so maybe WW posture will just correct it over time.

I found this website that is fairly descriptive

http://www.yoga.com/asanas/nauli.html

Shiloh

I went to the link - it says page not found and it redirected me to another page.
GF

'Life is not holding a good hand; Life is playing a poor hand well'

http://www.yoga-age.com/asanas/nauli.html