Zelda

Hi Judy,

Yes…I think there was a little exodus. Who knows why, but I have learned that you can’t please everyone all the time and also that women have any number of their own reasons for leaving. Most importantly, I know that several who have “gone” still read on a regular basis. Why they no longer participate is anyone’s guess.

I’m so grateful for the women who do stay and also cut me slack for not being perfect.

Here’s a little issue I was pondering, but maybe I’ll throw it out to you for perspective.

One particular woman that we poured a ton of time and energy into helping finally decided that this group – and work – weren’t for her and she made a rather pronounced exit.

She’s been posting on another forum – one populated by a very few less-than-balanced post-surgery women who give ridiculous advice and information. All she wants is surgery and has totally bought their line: “It’s no problem – best decision I ever made – yada yada.” Even as their butts are paralyzed and/or falling out.

Anyway, as it turns out this past member of ours still reads here and has begun emailing post-surgery women who land first at ww and sending them to that other site.

The only thing that bugs me about any of this is that women are being sent to someplace that imo has zero value. The information is bad and not remotely based in reality, but it soothes the desperate woman who so wants to believe in the surgical cure. At least someplace like hystersisters has such a huge demographic that there tends to be some balance. But it, too, is deceptive because the ones who post positive stories are generally weeks and months, rather than years, post-surgery. Others who moderate have often had a terrible time of it if you look back through the archives, but they respond to newbies as if it’s all a walk in the park. This Invasion of the Body Snatchers phenomenon is so common to these populations of women.

Anyway…there isn’t anything to be done about it, but I feel better getting it off my chest.

Christine

I don't know about Zelda but last I heard Anita is fine :)

To be honest to read MANY other forums I would hope - Gives a woman thinking of surgery a view (And some of these sites are real eye openers when you read the pitfalls they go through) If you read these sites - I would think - That you would think 'Eeps - This is not the way' Wether they are 'balanced' or not is not my place to say - I would send them my best wishes because the road they have chosen will more than likely be one where they would appreciate or need the best wishes of people - And I would never send anyone bad wishes, that would just be heartless. If a woman is post surgery then there are a few sites that they would meet other post surgery women, maybe they would meet other post surgery women and get something from that - Who knows, it is not like it's a club. Not a club I would wanna join anyways. It is sad. I feel sad for them. If they feel soothed by talking through their woes with another post surgery woman having problems. I would think that is possibly a good thing, as they would probably want someone to talk to...

I would have hoped that by reading these sites - Some poor woman who is thinking of surgery would read about all the problems and choose a different way. I would hope - But who knows - We do not know what is in the mind of someone else, nor do we control it.

I would say that some people move on in their life and do not read as much. Some people will always come and go, maybe they like to see how everyone is doing. Maybe they leave as the POp is no longer on their mind - There are many maybes :-)

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed. Nobody is perfect, nobody. Remember that, and remember that which they can add to your existence.

I agree - Not everyone wants to read ' The small print'
I guess some of us trust the word of a Doctor and some of us just don't - It makes me distrust them when they say 'A little Op' When they know damn well it isn't -Immediately I distrust them.

I believe that Christines work will one day be offered alongside (If not in front of) This 'Little Op' It would be nice if a Doctor would admit the fact they do know know everything instead of acting like a superior being.

I like your idea of a natural approach to hyperactivity in kids, oh so many people just run for Ritolin, and drugs like this.

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

Hey Wholewomen

I'd just like to put in my two bob's worth here. I think we need to assess every time we are in a fix whether we need external advice/treatment for a challenge we are facing. I don't think it is helpful to put down a person when they use something external to fix them, whether a drug, a doctor, an op, an alternative therapy, an exercise regime, etc.

I think it is less important to fix it yourself than it is to *decide for yourself*, with the best information you can get your hands on, and a bit of commonsense risk assessment, which options you will go for. Then, having committed yourself to the road you have to accept the consequences of that decision, good and bad.

This is life. Every breath we take takes us closer to death, *and* gives us life and physical stability. We cannot just take the good.

There are some roads in life where both forks lead to projected negative outcomes (eg the woman who has had pelvic repair surgery and is faced with further prolapse, and is offered further surgery). Then all we can do is choose for ourselves which is the 'least most risky', for us.

And please don't pick on people who take medication as a chosen therapy. We get it from enough places, without getting it here as well. Don't worry, I don't take the criticism personally, but just wanted to point out we cannot say that any woman is wrong to opt for surgery / drugs after careful consideration of all the options, inc Wholewoman techniques / non-drug therapies.

Give me the options that don't involve drugs and surgery any day, over the alternative, but there are times when drugs and surgery are literally lifesaving and lifegiving.

IMO The problem is that people assume that the solution they are given on a plate with glowing encouragement is the best solution, without critically assessing the options themselves. And we assume that silver-tongued surgeons are telling us everything we need to know in order to make decisions about surgery.

I am not my sisters' keeper, just the little presence tapping them on the shoulder, reminding them of their responsibilities to themselves and to the body they wear.

Cheers

Louise

I do like the 'two bobs worth' saying - I thought that was only English - lol

I agree - If you make a choice knowing all the 'possible outcomes' Then at leats it is an Informed decision (Not that the Doctor will actually inform you of it - You hafta do the digging yourself)

Like you - I would try to choose the non surgery non drugs if there is any way around it - I am offered alot of different drugs. Thus far I have only accepted the one for my hand and I stretchhhhhhh that out as long as possible too - I hate being 'tied' to a hospital or Doctors type situ. There are many ways to approach the same thing - And knowledge is power - Thats why Docs hate you trawling thru the net - Cos their cover is blown and you suddenly do not believe every word they try on you.

I do believe - If WW techniques could be offered from the Doctors surgery or Gynae - Then a woman would have a much more informed choice. Most of us here - Just did a search about POP and found ourselves here. We are lucky to have 'fallen over' this website... There are Oh so many women who didn't until 'after the fact'

Life is a challenge, a quest or a test. When life throws you lemons - Make Lemonade :-)

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

Hi Sue

I came across a legal paper from Bond University the other day which recommends that doctors should have to legally tell patients about all options for treatment of any condition, see http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&contex... .
I find it amazing and horrifying that they don't already. It would be a minefield for doctors, who would have to be able to advise of particular non-medical treatments as well. Can you imagine that??? But it is not about doctors, is it? It's about people's lives post-surgery.

A friend of mine recently sent me a petition being circulated by the Hers Foundation requesting

"legislation requiring that every woman is provided with HERS video “Female Anatomy: the Functions of the Female Organs” (available at http://www.hersfoundation.org/anatomy/index.html ) prior to being given a hysterectomy consent form. I will vote for any representative who proposes such legislation."

It will be interesting to see if anything comes of this petition which is circulating the globe.

I call on every Member to go to the Hers Foundation website and download and sign this petition, and pass it on to friends. My friend is hoping to get an Australian version going as well.

Of course women should be properly and completely informed!! This petition is a start. All other surgery should be included too, esp. all pelvic repair surgery.

Unless we get off our collective butts and make noise about it in the right ears, nothing will change.

BTW, there are lots of little bits of quaint English terms in Oz.

Cheers

Louise

dear christine women join this site for as much support and info as they can possible get but because some women cant live with prolapse they opt for surgery i cant afford to lose any more weight as ive been really ill so ive got no choice 8 stones is a lot to lose im not saying kegels dont work im saying they dont work for every body so with the freedom of speech im sure this lady like other ladies on this site is suffering ??? so this emotionally needy lady is probably got children to look after and wants life we are not living in 19 o blob when women had to cope there is surgery millions of ops and because its a free country women can choose what they prefer it boils down to quality of life so im sorry you feel like this i thought with a woman of the world like you who as supposed to have dedicated her life to helping women who have got pelvic health problems dont really want to help ? so what youre saying if women have surgery they are emotionally unstable by the way i think any women on this site who does opt for surgery because they have no life good luck to you all??? and same to women who dont you see we are no different at the end of the day weve all got same thing wrong with us so im a lady who doesnt sit on either side of the fence oh and by the way christine good luck selling your books i guess this is what its all about

I had to laugh (hmm, why is this printing in red? Will it be in red in the post? It's my favorite color so that wouldn't be all bad but hmm) at your "little op" phrase. A couple of years ago I had surgery to repair a belly button hernia. I was in a lot of pain, and a few years before that had had an undiagnosed inguinal hernia incarcerate and I nearly died so when this one presented itself I wanted it fixed pronto. I talked to the surgeon and told him since I was a school teacher and it was very hard to find a sub I would like the surgery on Friday so I could go back to work Monday. (since it was outpatient I didn't think it would be a very big deal) He smiled and said all right and scheduled me for a Friday. Well needless to say it was a FAR BIGGER DEAL than I had expected, and I was in serious pain all weekend. But what made me want to bash his face in was the moment when I lay in recovery, groggy, vomiting, in pain and he smirked and said "So, you still think you'll be able to be at work Monday?" What the hell was that? Why didn't he just tell me up front that I would miss at least a week of work and maybe more? Because I would have rethought it, that's why, and waited until summer vacation at the very least. So I missed a week of work, my office had to scramble to find a sub, my kids (in my class) had to endure four different subs instead of one steady one, and when I went back I still was in pain and when a child socked me in the stomach (I teach some high risk and special needs kids) I developed a lovely hematoma ALL OF WHICH could have been avoided with some honesty because 6 weeks later I was out for summer vacation and could have taken my time recovering.

Now I don't want to down all doctors/surgeons. The surgeon who repaired my incarcerated hernia was wonderful, both before hand, during (obviously, since it healed nicely with no complications) and afterwards for the follow up care. Even when I kept calling for every stomachache I developed, terrified of another ordeal like the last one, he willingly saw me every time and examined me carefully and explained why it was not a hernia this time. (the first follow up when I had to slide my pants down and was embarrassed he told me it was a bit late to be shy with him since he had held my bowels in his hands which certainly did put that little hospital gown in perspective) So there are wonderful ones out there but there are smug SOBs out there too.

Cynthia

Dear RH,

It is not about emotionally unstable women or good/bad doctors. It is about misinformation and an area of the human female body that cannot be improved through surgery.

I beg to differ that there are viable surgical options or that women are remotely capable of making informed choices – because they are not adequately informed by the medical system.

If the medical system were truly honest they would tell you that the uterus is the hub of the wheel and that altering your vagina in any way warps the wheel and makes the breaking of additional ‘spokes’ inevitable. They would tell you to seek gentle and effective care for common pelvic conditions from other modalities such as acupuncture, nutrition, and Ayurveda and to avoid that first surgery as if your (quality of) life depended upon it.

They would also tell you that the second, third, fourth, and fifth surgeries would be unlikely to help but rather leave you permanently incontinent to the point of diapers or an ostomy bag.

They would also tell you to beware of a subset of post-surgery women who cope with the destruction of their own bodies by leading others into the same trap.

We are all about kindness and support here, RH. But what do we tell a woman who has been so very altered? None of our techniques can possibly help. There is nothing to do but wring our hands for you and pray that some doctor finally tells you the truth.

Warmth and kindness and prayers to you, RH,

Christine

* the uterus is the hub of the wheel and that altering your vagina in any way warps the wheel and makes the breaking of additional ‘spokes’ inevitable.*

I like that......

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

Well it seems that the start of this thread may relate to me! As it was Clon who started the thread and mentioned two names in particular, one of whom we know has not sought the surgical path, who does that leave … hmmmm?

Christine you have mentioned things that have happened OFF forum and were never meant for everybody. Putting something to Clon for her perspective should have been put to Clon and not the whole forum but you chose the public route to “out” somebody. I have done absolutely nothing wrong, the women who I have e-mailed have already had the surgery and so therefore have altered bodies of which I have read many times that WW techniques will do little for. I really did feel for them and simply suggested another site which may be of more help to them as they will all be in the same boat, the same way all women living with prolapse are in the same boat here. We all choose to do what we feel we need to do and I most certainly did not and have not ever contacted anyone directing them away from your work, if they want to learn to live well then I couldn’t be happier for them and wish them all the best. As said before the only 2 or 3 women I have spoken with have HAD surgery. I have never said a bad word to any of them about you or your work, infact, we never discuss this site.

As for calling me “emotionally needy”, well the same could be said for many posts on this site. All of these women here have emotions and for some those emotions get the better of us, how nice it would be if we could all be superwoman! Why on earth start another forum for “emotional issues” if there were not emotions to deal with. To say you all spent a lot of your time and energy helping “this woman” for her to turn around and leave was just down right nasty. Are we tied to this site with a ball and chain, do we sign a forever binding contract, I don’t think so. It’s all about choice and in the end we all make our own choices as to what feels right for us. People come and go on forums, it is how it works. I could say that I spent my time and energy helping newbies feel welcome and I also spent my hard earned money on your products. Nobody asked me to do that but isn’t that what a welcoming nurturing forum is all about, helping each other, not something that is tiresome and a drag!

I would also like to point out that so many times it has been said here that women leave without so much as another word about what happened to them. I didn’t disappear but put an end to my participation so no questions were left unanswered. I wish I had not done that now. Nothing seems to please you Christine except those that sing your praises and yet wasn’t it you who announced your displeasure at the “goey e-mails”. Do you know what really makes me laugh, I am still using the posture and I am still stretching and getting down on hands and elbows.

Yes I have still come onto this site reading posts and picking up tips and ideas from the ladies here on not only bodily issues but health aspects as well, I didn’t think that would be a crime.

Now even if you argue that your post was never about me it is far too much of a coincidence for my liking and never have I crossed someone wanting to hurt another when they are just trying to find their way whichever road they may take.

I do not want to get into a debate here and I am sure the backlash is coming but this is not something I want to be a part of.

Anita

Glad you're doing well, Anita, and hope the posture is helping by now. Would only ask that you send women to hystersisters instead so they can get a more realistic picture. G-day. Christine

Once is the amount of times I have done that but I shall not do it again. Nobody wants to feel themselves being slated for trying to do something they thought might help. No one is perfect and I certainly did not deserve that.

when women have severe prolapse [hanging out] who do they turn to i wonder??? do they sit and read a book ? do they just hope prolapse fairys come and wave a magic wand to make it all better ? do they just sit and hope it goes away or do they do kegels do they live with this ??? no ill tell you what they do they go find a competent surgeon and these people who are worth their weight in gold operate ? yes surgery yippee for doctors who go to medical school and learn need i say more ??? there isnt anything to be done about it but i feel better getting it off my chest too hooray im finally having my op in 2 weeks already had hystrectomy and rectocele repair and if any thing else drops ? ill have that done too because i am emotionally needy yes ill admit but who isnt im not an unstable woman a very fed up woman ? ive not done any damage to my body because prolapse has already done that job for me but im not going to sit and suffer when there is help?? my symptoms cant be any worse than they are now no life cant even walk cant eat properly yes i have had it rough ? prolapse happens prolapse gets repaired ? any way what suits one might not suit the other its called options ladies you dont have to be a raving looney just because you opt for surgery its what best suits you ive heard storys about terrible outcomes of surgery but ive also heard brilliant ones too id rather not have surgery what women do ? but when your uterus is half hanging out what choice would you opt for

Hi Judy,

I remember my experiences with hyperactive children when I was teaching Kindergarten. To my way of thinking, it is such a shame that so many parents (and teachers!) think that over active children need to be medicated. It is just an easy way out for them. However, that being said, I found that the truly hyperactive child benefited greatly from the help of the much needed medication that would allow him/her to be able to function as needed to learn, socialize and become independent in a classroom setting.

It was always so sad to see a normal, over active student spaced out on medication he or she really didn't need, but it made my day when a child who could not funtion well before had calmed down enough to learn and grow and be happy! Such a child could finally be happy because his or her world was finally as it should be because the child was finally getting what was truly needed.

The secret is knowing which children really need the med's and which ones don't and would benefit from other measures, such as diet and behavior modification. Seems to me the doctors should be able to do a better job of figuring that out! There I go, bashing doctors again!

Warm regards,

Mae

not sure how to reply. Clearly there are many choices in life. I have never experienced SEVERE prolapse. When I discovered my mild prolapse I did exactly what you said- I read and read and read. I read surgical site after surgical site- the entire time not feeling a good fit for me in any of them. And then I found this site. I read THE BOOK. The only book I have found so far that spoke to my womanly intuition about my own body. This work is the only solution I have come across that makes any anatomical sense. I also wished it would go away. And in a very real measurable way it has. I imagine that "if" I had severe prolapse I would do the same. Educate myself and make changes and choices.

RH-you endorse surgery for POP. It is strange though. You are not living well. You sound miserable. I am sorry you are living with such extreme symptoms. I wonder if they could have been avoided if you had implemented WW principles instead of having surgery. What would have happened if the Doctor you saw said "Hey, read this book and try this posture and see me in six months" ? I am sorry you found WW too late in your search for solutions. I hope that after your surgery in two weeks you will feel relief. Best of luck to you and please let us know how you are feeling - it is only through honest women like you that we can truly understand the effects of POP surgery.

Christine, the only thing I think you could have done in that situation would have been to do just what you did- ask the person to please also recommend a more balanced site- with a warning that even there you really have to search for realistic results.

Anita, glad to see you back here- sorry you are feeling singled out. How have you been? Has the posture become yours yet? I have to be fair and say that in the history of the year and a half I have been here Christine has freely given (well I say freely but truthfully it has probably cost her quite a bit) information, advice, and support. She has welcomed challenges to her way of thinking and has never stepped down from a difficult question. I am glad that you felt comfortable enough to share your feelings here. I wish you didn't feel so angry. If there is anything I can do to help you through this please don't hesitate to ask.

here is the thing. I know with a certainty that not all children are cut out for classroom living. That is just life. Now that doesn't mean that the parents of those children don't still need to go to work everyday. So then you end up in a little catch 22. In a perfect world for the child the parent would figure out another method of education for the child- but that isn't what happens. Instead they tell the child that there is something wrong with him- they label him- and then they give him a magic pill.
your heart is in the right place- but think this through a little more. Wouldn't it be amazing for the child if he was allowed to learn as he pleased? Maybe to learn about the ocean by going there and running on the sandy shores instead of sitting in a classroom and looking at a book about it and then when he has no interest telling him there is something wrong with him? The thing is those same kids who can't manage to pay attention in school can sit in front of a video game for hours. Humans have an amazing capacity to learn-especially as children- but what are we teaching them?
I know this is an unrealistic solution to the problem- but I just want it out there that IMHO there is nothing- absolutely nothing wrong with those kids who are medicated for ADD or ADHD- basically the meds are just treating the symptoms. The real problem is that there is nothing else to be done because most parents can not give up the second income- or in some circumstances there is only one parent- and stay home and work with the child. This to me is another example of how we choose not to take responsibility for our own health or the heath of our children. Instead we take the advice of the schools and the Drs. and drug our kids.

I would add that no condition of ADD or ADHD is caused by a methamphetamine deficiency.

Hi Alemama,

I totally agree with you Alemama-what a wonderful world it would be for our children if we could live the kind of life you would have us live! Unfortunately, life is not like that. It is what it is, and we, as teachers, have to do our best with what we have to work with. I believe YOUR heart is in the right place, but think about it-not EVERY child can be helped through diet and behavior modification-that's just not realistic. Every diabetic can't be helped through diet and lifestyle changes, although many can. We have to work with each case, use the least invasive form of treatments, or methods, and try to meet the needs of each child, with an open mind..that's what a good teacher does!

Christine, I am not sure what is in the med's the doctors prescribe for these children..but it works for some, not for all and I, for one, have seen success after success when it is properly prescribed. Thank goodness for that!

Warm regards,

Mae

Hi Wholewomen

I am wondering if this ADHD thing is relevant to the rest of the discussion in this topic? Much valuable stuff is being said, but I don't think we will reach consensus on it, no matter how long we gnaw away at it. I have very strong opinions on ADHD and its treatment but I am not going to express them here, as these are POP Forums.

I would like to suggest that those who want to discuss ADHD and its management/treatment take it somewhere else?

If the discussion is about the merits of taking responsibility for yourself and your own health by putting in the hard work, rather than handing all responsibility over to a doctor, then it does belong here. If it is about the difficulty of discerning what to do about a condition / state that can be altered with medical/surgical intervention with all its warts, but that may be manageable without intervention, then it also belongs.

Let's keep it in the context of POP and related subjects.

Louise

Spot on Judy.

I have found myself several times sitting in a doctor's waiting room in the last few months, for an appointment where I ultimately found out that all is normal and healthy, contrary to what they initially thought. I was pretty resentful about that, because I had paid for the fuel to get there, spent hours in the car driving and polluting the planet, had to sit and wait (which I detest), carried the gap cost over the top of health insurance rebates and missed out on playing in my garden. All I got out of it was some benchmark test results and a clean bill of health, both of which are, I will admit, very good news.

*But* each visit I had to question each doctor's reasons for recommending further tests, and question them again once the results came back, so I understood his answers. I had to know what I was talking about, so I could ask the right questions each time. Each of us has the responsibility to do this for ourselves. Once we have straight answers we are in a position to choose which treatment, if any.

Had I not asked any questions I would by now be taking blood pressure medication for (White Coat Syndrome) high BP which would probably make me unsteady on my feet at times and set me up for unnecessary falls. This in itself would prevent me from getting up on ladders and doing other strange physical stuff that keeps me fit. I would be booked for major pelvic repairs and be facing the prospect of going under anaesthetic as a patient who takes hypertension medication. I would be well and truly on the treadmill to losing my health, autonomy, and quality of life, regardless of the 'success'(!) of the pelvic repair surgery. It was just like you and your non-existent kidney cancer and diabetes!

Variations from normal are always a challenge, particularly when there is a herd mentality, whether in classroom or doctor's surgery. This seems to be the way that humankind operates, and when you are one of the herd you have to take the initiative if you want to do things differently, something that seems to apply to me every time.

Like I said we all make our choices and have to live with the consequences. We also get to enjoy the rewards!

No, you weren't stirring a can of worms. I think we just got a little off track.

Cheers

Louise

What angered me Alemama is the original post was written like I was some kind of letch and then went on as if I had been diverting women in their droves to other sites. I did it once, ONCE, and it was because the woman in question was suffering after she had already HAD surgery. She didn’t know whether her next surgery was pelvic organ related or not so I thought I was trying to do the right thing to help her make sense of what was happening.

I also opposed to being singled out in such a way when I have done nothing to hurt anybody else, I think those who remember me from my time here know I am not a spiteful person. But if you are going to make a statement about somebody knowing full well they will more than likely see it then you should expect that person to retaliate. If there was a problem I would think it would have been nice to be contacted off the forum and perhaps a respectful discussion taken place.

Your comment “I have to be fair and say that in the history of the year and a half I have been here Christine has freely given (well I say freely but truthfully it has probably cost her quite a bit) information, advice, and support”. If you read my post correctly you will realise that I was not trying to make a point about the money but that it was MY CHOICE to spend it and was in defence to being made out that you had all wasted your time and energy on me whilst I was here. Was it not your choice to give that time and energy? Is it not your choice every time a new lady lands at WW not knowing what road they will eventually take?

We are all such very different people and all react differently, wouldn’t life be boring if we were all the same. I certainly do not pass the buck and expect anybody else to take care of me, I put my family first and foremost and then spend what little time is left taking care of myself. Yes I am still living with my POP, happily … no, but living with it all the same. I am not fully opposed to surgery because I do not know what will happen, therefore my presence here is not welcomed and I realise that and I am not saying this with a nasty tone.

I did not come here to start an argument but simply protect and stand up for myself, as anyone of you would not hesitate to do, I hope you can appreciate and understand that. I never wanted any animosity.

Anita

In my time on many forums I have said many many times that words... Whether in txt talk ot in text - The written post etc - Can be recieved in a myriad of ways - I could say one thing in a jolly tone and you might recieve it in an antagonistic tone. People need to understand and re-read a post sometimes back to themselves 'in the eyes of another' And understand that written words do not hold the inflection or changes in tone of a 'voice conversation'

This can cause alot of problems, and does many times in forum life. One of the hardest parts of being a 'Mod' is being 'moderate' alot of time tempers flare (not so much here per se but definitely in mens forums lol) And being a moderate mod and an intermediate can mean alot of problems and calming of waters etc etc Some people have a 'way with words' and some don't - But this does not mean they mean to hurt someone - I would hope not here anyways...

A forum needs certain abilities to make Mod-life easier. - Moving threads, locking of threads that become 'inflamed' among other things.

Ya know - If Prolapse was not it's given name and it's name was POP - It would not seem half as scary. Sometimes just the words can instill fear into a person.

To be honest - From what I have seen on this site (And I have seen alot on this past three or more years) I do not believe anyone has come here with bad intentions. The emotional aspect of POP can make people react in ways they would not recognise as themselves. POP cam make one very upset and angry and oh so many emotions...

The women I have seen, whether they still be here or who have left - Have been wonderful women trying to live their life to the best of their ability. I believe that we are all 'Sisters in POPhood' And no matter whether we like each other or not we all hold this common bond...

Words can be weapons at times. Or percieved as such.
If we all think about what we want to say, and read it back to ourselves with 'anothers eyes' then we may see things within our wording that would upset. This is something that most women have never heard of. We have to have understanding of the fact that we make our own choices as to what 'road' to take with all problems.

*OK the front door went and I lost my thoughts - lol*

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

I am truly sorry for singling you out and I will try not to do that ever again. It never occurred to me that you would read it almost as soon as I wrote it (or maybe a “little birdie” told you again) or that you would bother to out yourself by responding after having publicly left the group.

Understand that for me this is like a battle and sometimes I lose the trees for the forest.

Please understand something else unrelated to the original issue, but irritating all the same…

Yes, this is the Web where everything is supposed to be free, but I’ve poured everything I have – and a lot that I don’t have – into this thing because I know its true value. It can be a little wrankling to have someone publicly announce that this work and group are not for them and then learn they still take full advantage of our knowledge and wisdom on a regular basis. Make no mistake that my intention has been to give freely to the world of women with prolapse, but also understand that it is not an easy pursuit and situations like these do not help.

I think we should all lighten up.

((((((((((((((((((Group Hug)))))))))))))))))

Christine

Sometimes it takes alot to apologise - Especially publically. And when you have something that is 'Your baby' You fight for that passionately. It makes you somewhat unable to step away from things at times. :-)

Apologies - Especially when given freely and meaningfully can mean so very much. :-)

I would appreciate that Anita :-) You are a wonderful woman :-) I know this.

Having always bigged up WW passionately from when I got here. Both here and on other sites. It becomes part of your BEING and your LIFE. Christine is very close to WW, and it is her baby. We hafta know that she wants the word 'out there' and wants it to go to all women to give them power of the knowledge etc

Just remember words can heal - And words can hurt, even if you write a little comment you may deem nothing - It can hurt someone and you hafta appreciate that fact.

*Apparently tweeting* Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

I like that Sue! Good one..

((Hugs))

Mae

You are absolutely right on Louise! You know how to say all the things I feel, but can't put into words like you do. Thank you for your "presence" and the kind "tapping" on the shoulder! It is most welcomed and appreciated!

Mae

hi i asked you what women should do if the uterus was hanging out ? do they stick with kegels ? when a woman has got gross pelvic floor weakness and her womb is falling outside of her vagina and she cant have a pesserie because of the very large rectocele also very high mucosa prolapse [internal] and is in a lot of pain are you sticking to your guns and saying that these women need kegels??? when its as severe as this ? i was told that a uterus left outside the vagina can ulcerate and get infection .would you say that in your choice you would live like this ? or would you admit it needs surgery ? or would that be ruining my body i believe if a womans pop is only mild then kegels will help ? but i think when its severe then we havent got a choice because im sure that a uterus hanging out no amount of therapy would and could not put this back .....so through no fault of our own this has happened what do we do???

sorry i wont ever come on this site again ?christine you might be helping on this freely as you have said but on this site you are gaining hands down ? because you are selling your book and thats why you slate women for having surgery and thats the truth ? i doubt very much if you got severe prolapse with no quality whats so ever of life you would put up with it you would want relief away from pain and suffering and the reason i know this is due to the fact its human nature ?? vets dont let animals suffer like doctors dont let humans suffer so its alright for surgery then ? if someone has been run over ? or needs a transplant or needs heart by pass im sorry but ? its still in the body it can still be fixed it begs me to differ that surgery is so wrong and damaging to our bodies if this was the case then people would be dying in millions ? instead theyre waiting for blood transfusions? organ transplants i could go on [womb] [bladder] [anus] [bowel] they are all internal organs like your brain ? heart lungs? i still could go on but im not going too because women what have surgery ? are wrong and were doing damage to our bodys im so sorry i dont mean to be blunt but i disagree with your theorys its alright for surgeons to operate when it suits some people ???

Hey RH. I think it might be a good idea for you to get the book and read it. You do not seem to have a good grasp of what this work is or how it even works. What is so amazing is that this work is POSTURAL. It has almost nothing at all to do with kegels. The theory is to reposition the pelvic organs in their correct place over the pubic bone with every breath that you take.
Of course you are always welcome here. I think you have much to gain. If you are able reserve your opinion for a little while and just devour the information here on this site and also in the book Saving the Whole Woman.
I would also like to offer that I strongly believe a severe uterine prolapse like you describe is able to be reversed to manageable degree and stabilized with out surgery.
And for the record this site is not anti surgery just unnecessary surgery.

definitely food for thought, judy

as a parent of a kid who's not the 'typically developing type' I will only say that it hurts to know that my parenting skills are not up to par. I know you didn't say that, but its the truth. very few parents know what to do with a high energy kid. the travesty is that the 'experts' dont' know either, but instead of saying so, they push drugs.

but I wholeheartedly agree with you. these kids need to learn to maximize their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses, just like the rest of us. masking the problem with drugs is a dangerous game, imo.

its a frustrating thing though, knowing as I do, that parents don't get enough support when they buck the system or explore unorthodox options. and what about respite? we have no family nearby, so our for-lack-of-a-better-term difficult child is ours 24/7, 365 days a year. so far for 9.5 years. sometimes we are at the end of our ropes and say to each other, lets go for the drugs. of course we snap out of it, but I can see parents getting to the point where they -the parents- can no longer cope without giving their child meds.

ever read 'raising your difficult child' by dr stanley tureki?
I went to a lecture of his and he said when parents come in seeking ritalin for their child, he first recommends valium - for the parents.
I thought that was genius.

but I'm rambling now...sorry

I thought we could go offtopic in the emotional forums. I'll stop if its bothersome, but I like being able to talk about issues other than POP here.

Hey granolamom. So sorry. I reread my opinionated post and saw that it could indeed be interpreted as critical. The reality of the situation is that there is so much more to it than what I mentioned. I guess I was just thinking in a perfect world- but this is reality and parents need all the support they can get.

Hi RH

I am trying to work out what you are really wanting. As I understand it you have had a hysterectomy and a repair. You are trying to decide whether to have more surgery for a large rectocele and high mucosal prolapse (not sure what that is, but it doesn't sound like a cake walk).

We all go through times when we are emotionally needy, and at risk of toppling with all the stuff that happens in life. Nobody is accusing you as being guilty of anything. Hey, you're going through a really rough patch. It is just something we all have to work our way through it when it happens.

You seem to have decided to go ahead with this next surgery and I really hope that it will make your life more bearable. I can only wish you well, and hope that it is successful and gives you better quality of life. As you have already had extensive surgery it would be difficult for you to get as much benefit from Wholewoman techniques as a woman who has had no surgery, simply because many of your natural pelvic supports have either been removed or damaged by the previous surgery. Christine has always maintained that this would be the case where a woman has had surgery. You can go to the HERS Foundation website, www.hersfoundation.org , to find out what happens during hysterectomy and about its follow-on effects on the body.

I am reading betweens the lines her, but you are also talking about a woman who has her uterus hanging out. It is hard to know from your style of writing if this woman was you prior to your hysterectomy, or whether you are talking about another woman.

You have expressed a lot of opinions, but I agree with Alemama that it takes quite a bit of effort and reading to understand WW work, both here on the Forums for women's experiences, and in Christine's book which has all the theory behind the work, and helps women to understand how their bodies work. Then it takes weeks or months of perseverence to make it work for you. Please don't discredit Christine's book and work without at least reading it, even if you cannot benefit greatly from it. If there is another woman you know who has prolapses, only the woman concerned can decide for herself whether the WW path is for her. If it is another woman please encourage her to register as a Member so she can talk with us for herself.

On the other hand I can see that you are venting your frustration and anger because you cannot make your body work properly, and are looking for some sort of support to help you come to grips with the best way to deal with it. RH, I wish we could help you. I doubt that there is anybody on these Forums who has travelled the same path as you. You will only find women who can relate to your history on Forums where there are plenty of women who have had the surgeries you have had, and will be able to relate to what you are going through, and the fears that you no doubt have for the future.

I really hope the surgery goes well, and gives you some relief. I will be thinking of you in July as you recover.

Cheers

Louise

I raised one and he helped make life interesting. He was into everthing as soon as he could crawl.
I thought I knew everything about raising children as my first one was very quiet and easy to manage. What a shock when the second one came along, he educated me in a hurry.
We got through it and now he is a very pleasant person and a joy to have around. He is still high energy and into all sorts of activities. So granolamom I'm sure your bundle of energy will grow up to be a fine person.
The upsidedown tomatoes have lots of flowers on them but this has been the coldest June in over 30 years so I'm not sure how well they will turn out if we don't get some warmer weather soon.
regards,
Flora

thanks for the update, flora
I got a chuckle though, reading that as the next line. these high energy kids are like upside down tomato plants sometimes, different than we expect, but with appropriate care they too can flower and set fruit.

and even though I go off on tangents, to me, its all connected, as it is all part of life just like a prolapse. each facet of my life closely affects the others.

just as with high energy kids, or a clinical depression (also discussed here), a prolapse takes a woman down an unexpected road. I'm very opinionated and strong willed and have always thrived on doing things my own way, so its no surprise that I found it easy (thrilling almost) to try the ww approach rather than track down a surgeon.
but I think that many women don't have enough support to try it. if you are used to going with the mainstream (not necessarily a bad thing) and your family and friends are encouraging you to fix it, rolling eyes at a 'natural' approach, then its hard to go it alone. especially if your not tempermentally fiesty. I grew up a fighter due to a rough childhood and looking back I can see that the skills I learned have become very useful.
and that is life, is it not? whatever decisions we make, whatever circumstances we find ourselves in, its all a learning experience. you get through it somehow and it changes you, and changes the next set of circumstances and options.

so RH, my heart goes out to you. you sound scared. I hope and pray you find relief with the next surgery. as louise said, the ww approach is based on having your uterus and no prior pelvic surgery. so it is unknown how helpful it can be for someone who's already had surgery. and as alemama pointed out, it is alot more than kegels (infact kegels are not really a cornerstone of this work at all, they are almost inconsequential), you might find the book interesting. or not.
I am not antisurgery. and honestly, if my uterus were hanging between my legs and I couldn't bring it in with posture and exercise, I might arrange a consultation with a surgeon. but I would definitely try the posture and exercise for a year before surgery

and alemama, don't worry about your post, I took no offense. I think that most parents would consider options other than meds if they had the support to do so. 'cuz it aint easy.

You are so right Gmom.

Ilove the way you write things - Temperamentally feisty - :-)
I like that!

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

It just never occurred to me that I would be missed or wondered about. Even though I had done it with Kit for instance. I searched my name merely expecting my own posts.
It feels thoughtless and self-absorbed in hind-sight. The real reason I pulled away was time, I had to cultivate real discipline to turning around my financial situation. If you remember my brush with foreclosure and the assistance of my dear MIL ? Well things are getting better all the time.. In fact I often hum that Beatles song to myself.

I'm sorry girls.. there's so many of you that I feel I've come to know, unique strong voices that still echo in my head and heart. I'm really in tears - overwhelming gratitude for the power of sister-hood that lives here and this sadness that I haven't believed myself to be anything more than another sad cry for help here - and who would miss that ? how interesting the way we hold up mirrors for each other that help us really SEE ourselves.
Zelda

I think about you often. You were here when I first became a member. Those early days for me - the members who spoke - you, Kit, Anita, Judy, Sue- it's not the same without you all, though we do hear from Sue from time to time. This IS a very powerful sisterhood. You were not just another sad cry for help - you were a link, a vital piece of this complex puzzle, a very important voice. I'm so glad that you're doing OK. Please stick around and visit more often. I miss you.

Goldfinch

you're a part of this sisterhood, zelda
each of us, well, most of us, started out as a sad cry for help. but none of us was ever only a sad cry for help. each exchange is read by so many and interpreted in so many ways, its impossible to even imagine how many women have been comforted by you. that they are not alone. that someone was voicing their concerns and fears. and every time you connect with another person, that person has the opportunity to learn something. you are as important as anyone else.

I'm happy to hear that your financial situation has begun improving, I do remember how stressful it was for you. and I'm happy you found the time to post again.

Thank you.