Exercise Question - IS IT SAFE TO DO SQUATS WHEN YOU HAVE PROLAPSE?

Hi Lilly Anne

I can't see why you couldn't do squats with weights, as long as you can get your belly far enough forward over your thighs. Your pelvic floor will tell you if you are taking it too far.

I guess you need to ask your instructor which muscles you are attempting to strengthen with this exercise, and which other muscles you have to use to do it. Get some personal instruction on this particular exercise. If it involves contracting muscles that will push your pelvic muscles backwards off your lower abdomen and over the pelvic floor, then I wouldn't do it. If it involves full squats I wouldn't do it, as you are carrying extra weights in your hands.

The other question to ask your instructor, if you are doubtful about it, is what other exercise/s you could substitute for this particular exercise.

Cheers

Louise

Hi Lilly Anne!

I'm so glad you're feeling better - yeah!

What kind of squats are you doing? Can you tell us how your feet are pointing and where you hold the weights?

:) Christine

First of all, I question why women want to do this sort of exercise. It’s entirely male-patterned and just basically uncomfortable for women. That men teach it at the gym is what makes it attractive, no doubt. And that is absolutely no commentary on you, Lilly Anne, for many many women are drawn to this stuff. I think the fact that you are a young, strong woman who has never given birth also makes you less perceptive of your female-body parameters. You think you can do anything they can do and really, that's not the case in the long run. And it is a fact that men cannot do things that are fabulously easy for us.

Beyond that, I believe that sort of weight lifting is anatomically unsound for women unless you squat way down so your spine and thighs create a right angle (see fig.17 in my yoga blog) and you are Truly protecting your spine by pulling up your chest, blowing out your upper abdomen, Absolutely Not pulling in your abdominal muscles, and maximally sticking out your butt.

The Entire Theory of Pulling in your Abdominal Muscles to Protect your “Core” is WRONG!!! We protect our TRUE core, which is horizontal, by contracting the latissimus dorsi muscles of our back as well as our gluteals.

Lilly Anne…by pulling in your abs you are greatly destabilizing your spine and with it your pelvic interior. You can feel this yourself!

Squat down just as you describe (abs pulled in) while holding your palm across your lower back. You will not feel that large plane of muscle working across your lower back.
Now, lift your chest (shoulders down and upper back flat and broad), blow out your lower rib cage and relax your lower belly. Do you see that these large muscles that criss-cross with your gluteals to TRULY protect your spine are now engaged?

WE ARE AN ENTIRE CULTURE OF EXERCISERS ENGAGING THE WRONG SET OF MUSCLES TO PROTECT THE SPINE!!

Now do the same thing, but externally rotate your hips. The knees MUST stay over the second and third toes. You will see that your buttocks muscles are now also engaged, providing the other end of the criss-cross that supports your sacrum in its most stable position.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH DOING SQUATS WITH EXTERNAL HIP ROTATION? I’ll tell you what…it is a classically FEMALE position that you will rarely find in any male discipline – including yoga!

I am very happy your instincts told you to question such exercise. I am trying to educate the world about such all-pervasive, backward, and dangerous-for-women exercise.

Love, Christine

I used to have a machine (Total Trainer 2000) It was like a rolling board where you kinda laid down a bit and did squats in a a completely different position to stood up squats (You were able to add about 20kg weight to this or in itelf you could adjust the percentage of your body weight)

*EDIT* - I searched it so you know what it looks like...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Total-Trainer-2000-Exercise-Equipment_W0QQitemZ300...

You could do squats but never a 'stood up' squat. It didn't affect my POP at all. I only got rid of it as it took up like 8ft of space in the house...

Makes me wonder if this laid (Or tilted back as you weren't laid down completely - Kind of like / but more laid than / ) Would this protect the female body somewhat from the problem of squats?

Pic - http://i19.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/f7/90/3c76_1.JPG

As I said I sold it years ago as it took up 8ft in length and 3ft in width of the house - So not for a small place... But I remember when I first had my POP - When it was at it's real worst... Using this didn't make me feel any worse (Is that because of the angle?)

I also wondered about a rowing machine - One day I may test that theory, as I believe with a rowing machine you could affect your POP if you were someone who did the wrong position of row (Being that you do not lie back toooo far when you are in the rowing stroke) I no longer have my Concept two rower as that took up another 8ft of my room - I used to have a home gym pre moving here - Pre alot of things... But I will one day test the theory POP wise when I find someone who has a rowing machine.
A rower like my old one...
http://i23.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/f8/92/de1f_12.JPG

http://i15.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/f6/f5/2d7e_1.JPG

Tho I do wonder if rowing could affect POP or not...

Its not as jarring as jogging no 'downward slamming' of the body - If you row correctly it is a smoooooooth movement. But I haven't rowed in years - Tho I will always wonder if rowing could or would make POP worse or better or affect it in no way at all... (For those that may wonder what I am on about the rowing stroke is legs - back - arms - You straighten your legs, back goes back a little bit - NOT a complete lie back like you see many people do - Then the arms holding the 'oar' or rowing handle on a single handled machine - Come to your belly button) But I do think that if you leaned back too far rowing would affect POP just like situps would - But I wonder if you only leant back a small bit as you actually should whether it would or not...

*EDIT2*
I found the technique of rowing from the C2 site - As you can see you really should not lean back too far at all in fact very very little... But - I still wonder as I cannot test it as this machine costs the earth here...

http://www.concept2.co.uk/training/technique.php

OK I went on a ramble...

I do wonder if people who wanted to bulk up muscle or whatever in legs, or tone them etc - Would this type of machine be better for them than a standing squat, being that you are at an angle, and not 'over the abyss' in a stood up pose.... Somewhere around I have a leaflet about the 'Kinesiology of rowing' - Interesting - But only to a rowing enthusiast prolly lol...

Thoughts anyone?

Hopes that made some semblance of sense...

Sometimes you are holding someone else's heart whithin your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed.

Lilly Anne it's good to hear from you!!! I have been doing squats for several years and continue to focus on correct form. The gym I belong to is a powerlifting gym although I don't compete in powerlifting. I squat with a 45 pound bar with additional weight for 3-4 sets with the last set to failure. Belonging to a powerlifting gym using amost exclusively free weights has let me weight lift in WW posture. On my last set I go to failure but unlike the competitive lifters my failure is never one in which I strain. The owner of the gym stresses correct form which for squatting is to go very low, think of how a toddler squats down, at no time am I sucking in my abdomen. Squatting and free weights in general has allowed me to develope core strength because of the constant stabilizing and balance that is needed. For me squatting has been a great all over exercise and I really believe that it has helped my prolapse. I have become a believer of the discussions focused on healthy fascia and it being a whole body issue (for lack a better way to word it). I think that it is Louise who has had some great discussions about fascia in her posts. Anyway it just makes sense to me to get strong which then allows me to stay in posture and move with more ease in my daily activities.

Thanks so much, PA runner, for giving balance to the issue of weight lifting and also for illustrating how it is properly done!

Hi All

I think this topic has highlighted what it is *possible* to do when you have prolapsed pelvic organs.

Common belief out their in womanland is that the onset of POP means that the woman can no longer do everything that she used to be able to do. It is perceived as a weakening of the body, and a lessening of the woman's ability, for the rest of her life. She cannot push her body physically any more. I do not believe this is the case, and to give in to a sedentary lifestyle is not only self-limiting, but unwise healthwise.

If a woman has repair surgery this is certainly the case, ie she is advised that she can no longer lift xxx lb of weight ever again. In addition to that many woman have their lives further limited by side effects of the surgery, eg the very real risk of further prolapse (particularly where hysterectomy is involved) and changes to her bladder and bowel emptying, nerve damage, scar tissue pulling, pudendal nerve entrapment and other pain, etc.

We need to be realistic here and say that there are things that Wholewomen can no longer do too. Among these things would be awkward lifting, where it is not possible to lift in Wholewoman posture, or where Wholewoman posture would make lifting unsafe, eg lifting an unsupported trailer drawbar onto a towbar, where getting in close and personal puts your feet in a dangerous spot if the drawbar falls on them! But nobody should be doing these things anyway, male or female, prolapses or not! Another example might be lifting ungainly loads, where there is a lot of balancing or load sharing involved, and external forces might put the woman off balance and force her out of Wholewoman posture.

The key seems to be shifting "the point of failure" back a notch, and include in it 'that feeling that there is pressure down there', to protect the body's integrity, as PA Runner has suggested. This is a brain shift of great magnitude for a committed athlete.

In the same way, OHS guidelines, that in Australia dictate that no worker will lift more than 25kg at a time, and that heavy objects that are manually handled should not be stored above chest height. It is a *major* brain shift for some of us to convince ourselves that we will not lift that extra weight (just this once), or put that heavy object up there where there is the right sized space for it.

I think one of the main factors that makes us lift unreasonable weights day to day is the 'hurry' factor. We are so busy (or are under so much external pressure to get things done) that we push our own bodies over the edge. You might get away with it repeatedly with an intact body, but with POP is it dicing with further POP, and risking further limitation. Sure, we can handle the occasional, and unavoidable awkward manoeuvre, but making a habit of it is not wise, cos it might take a week to recover. Learning to slow down can have a major impact on how much damage we do to our bodies. Just taking the time to work out if there is a wiser way to do it, even if it takes more time, or you have to wait for a helper. eg getting a household trolley and using it to shift stuff around, teaching our toddlers to climb up onto our knees. (They will climb anyway, so you may as well give them something sensible to climb!!) Some jobs are just not meant to be done by one woman, but a well-designed trolley can increase your capacity greatly.

I have even been known to shift a piano using a set of rollers that you put heavy whitegoods on! It was not hard to do, but it took me half a day to figure out how to do it and get it moved. The problem was that I wanted the piano in a different spot, and DH would have come home and said , "You have got to be joking. That's too heavy, even for both of us!" If the rollers had not worked I would have left it until I could get two men.

As far as physical fitness is concerned I think the list of sports/activities that women with prolapse cannot do safely is shrinking. Our own members are showing us this. 'It is not the sport you choose, but how mindfully you do it, that will determine how your body handles it'. This may involve directly disobeying directions from your instructor, cos you can assume that they are operating from a 'butt-under-belly-in' paradigm, unless they demonstrate otherwise.

However, to understand how far you can push it you need to develop a very good working knowledge of your body's structural dynamics, and I think the only way to do this is to study Saving the Whole Woman thoroughly, cos you sure aren't going to find such well-thought out information anywhere else at this stage of human history! These Forums are also a very useful source of info about what activities women do, and how they have adapted them to accommodate POP. The Search box is a very useful piece of equipment as long as you can get your keywords right, AND TAKE THE TIME THAT IS NEEDED to find what you are after.

Then it is up to the individual to read the clues in their body's behaviour and take responsibility for what we give ourselves permission to do.

There will always be other factors to consider, Waiting 12 months after birthing before you really ramp your performance up. Factor in other injuries. Back right off if you go over the failure line once. How much you need this particular activity in your life, and availability of other enjoyable alternatives. Keep your environment controlled, eg use a gym and a good instructor, rather than doing it at home. Accept than even elite athletes eventually have to accept changing sports and dropping a grade as their bodies deal with the results of injury and ageing. (This is another brain adjustment) Often they will just drop off the radar when they can no longer improve their personal best times or break world records. Then they just go into marketing. ;-) That's a bit sad, unless they take up another sport to keep themselves physically active.

So, is there any activity a woman with POP cannot do *at all*?

Louise

the only addition I could make is to get rid of the bar and use dumbells. The bar worries me because if you put it in front of your body then you can't use WW posture very well and if you put it behind then you risk hurting your shoulders. With dumbells you will be able to put them in just the right place- not forward and not backward.

Christine will you expand on this idea of the core being horizontal? It is a really interesting concept to me.
And Louise I am thinking-I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

Hi Alemama,

This is my favorite subject and the "core" of the ww work. I love to write about it - but am just swamped atm. I'll try to get a blog post in within the next week or so.

xoChristine