New here and confused!

first, congrats on the new baby and welcome to the site. your story is more common than you might think because noone really talks about these things, not even your dr. while he's probably seen this a million times, I doubt he's ever bothered to really explain it to one of his patients. which is probably a good thing because I also doubt he has a good understanding of why it happens and what to do about it.

so here's the thing, your body's been through alot, growing, supporting and birthing a baby. 8 weeks is really very soon in the recovery phase, so DON'T overdo things. DO rest when you need to and take good care of yourself. go to the home page of this site and read up on the faq's. get christines book "saving the wholewoman" (get the second edition) and read it. read it again. learn about the posture and some exercises you can do to manage prolapse.

what we're doing here is avoiding surgery. and this is why: with posture, we are repositioning our organs over bone and helping reshape fascia to support those organs so that they dont bulge into the vagina. once you tamper with muscle and fascia with a scalpel, things are never the same. those surgeries, while they often times 'work' at first, predispose a woman to future prolapses. if you read up on the procedures and the common side effects, you will see that oftentimes women are told to never again lift more than (I forget exactly is it 20? lb) what your toddler would weigh, they often have incontinence and pain during intercourse.

I know how you feel about just wanting to fix this, make it go away, so you can have your sexy body back. I was there too. I think I was 32? when I found my prolapse, not ready to think of myself as an old lady (who else has a prolapse?), not ready to no longer be interested in sex or in feeling sexy.

I cried a LOT, shook my hands and the heavens and whined 'why me???' a LOT.
yammered on and on to my dh (finally realized it was much better for our relationship to do my yammering here, lol) and slowly slowly began to come to terms with it.

luckily for me, I was not newly pp, so I wasn't also dealing with the hormonal thing. take it slow, there is a real mourning process that goes along with this. and if you are able to believe me I will tell you something else.
it gets better. sometimes on its own. sometimes with the help of posture, diet and exercise.
and most likely, you are no less attractive to your dh. try to put this in the same category as the wrinkles that will eventually begin to form around your eyes. the stretch marks and the sagging breasts that tell of your pregnancies.
pelvic organ prolapse is a loss. for some of us it is a first, for most of us it isn't the last. you will mourn, and you will learn to cope, and you will be ok.

but please do yourself a favor, and do not rush into surgery. there is no going back. this is not a life threatening disorder, you have time on your side. you can try this approach for a while (I'd say to give it a year) and always choose surgery later (my guess is that you won't).

in any case, stick around. this place was a lifesaver for me.

Hi Lilly

Yes, the Forum can get quiet at times, particularly weekends. There are many women who come to the Forums in similar situations as yours, asking similar questions. There are also lots who lurk without registering, and others who register then don't post until they have been around for a few months. There are three of us online at the moment. There are often more, particularly USA in the mornings and evenings. Often women will find out what they need to know over 6 months or so and happily get on with life, usually without surgery, and we never hear from them again, though sometimes they will reappear again in the future.

I read your initial post today, but have been flat out with visitors. You have asked some very important questions, some of which I can answer and some simply defy rational answers!. I am off to bed now (I'm in Australia), but will reply at length tomorrow.

Cheers

Louise

just to preface this with....I am not against those who choose surgery. everyone has the right to her own decisions, and I am not here to tell anyone she is 'wrong'. so lets not get our panties up in a bunch over my opinion. but you asked, so....

If I had a medical problem that was best resolved with surgery, I'd look into it, get multiple opinions, and if my life or general health depended upon it, I'd go for surgery.

If I have a problem, that the medical community believes can be fixed with surgery, but there are alternate ways of managing it, I prefer to keep my body in its natural, unaltered state. why? well, for one thing, I believe in the body's ability to heal. but if you mess with the natural structure, you limit that ability. and second, I'm a big ole scaredy cat. I'm afraid of negative outcomes of surgery that is elective.
and make no mistake, vaginal 'repairs' are elective, for the most part.

My prolapse HAS gotten better. it has not gone away, but I am ok with that now (would NOT have believed you 3 years ago if you told me those words would be coming out of my mouth). I have no discomfort save for a few days around my period, I have no incontinence, I went on to have another baby and oh yeah, sex is great. so WHY on earth would I gamble my bits on a surgery that ***might*** make me look 18 again? my hubby knows how old I am, and if he wanted me to be eternally 18, well, I'd probably have found a different man. I plan on getting old. very old. and if he wants to come along for the ride, he's going to love me and want me that way. ok, I didn't plan on the aging process starting with a prolapse at age 32, but whoever said it wouldn't? and I'll be honest, it was not easy wrapping my mind around it. I wanted to just have it fixed and be gone. but life is not like that.
surgery is not a guarenteed fix.

now, by the sound of your description, I'd guess you might have a cystocele (prolapsed bladder) and/or urethrocele (prolapse of the urethra) only because you mention that dr said the anterior wall is weak or lax or something like that. the bladder and urethra are located anterior (or in front of) the vagina. if the bulge was at the back wall of the vagina, I'd guess rectocele (prolapse of the rectum). don't know what the pointy thing is, but you're not the first to mention it.

I don't know which surgical procedure your dr is thinking of. there are a few types, mostly all with the same premise...slice out a piece of the vaginal wall and stitch it closed again to make it smaller (this is to compensate for the saggy-ness) and then to support the prolapsing organ(s). this can be done by inserting something (like mesh although I don't even know if they do that anymore, women have had awful problems with the mesh) or by tethering to the spine. splicing and tethering alters the normal orientation of the vagina and spine and I cannot imagine going through life that way. one of the big problems is that this creates a 'tent', the vaginal tube should be flat and closed. if it is tethered open, you are just begging for the uterus to descend as well. in addition, increased intraabdominal pressure will pop things right back out, so you would be told never to lift heavy things again. thats never. and you are only 29? you said, so imo, you are way too young for that type of restriction.

you asked, am I choosing to live with it instead?
yes, I am. and ya know what? I AM LIVING WELL WITH PROLAPSE. really, its not even on my list of top 10 worries anymore.

baby's in need of a diaper change, so I've got to go.
but stick around, the board will liven up after the weekend

I'm sorry about my wording - it wasn't directed at you! just in the past, those types of 'why do you want/avoid surgery' posts get people in a tizzy. I just wanted to avoid that.

I really do understand wanting to feel normal and comfortable, and it really is all about quality of life. as far as surgery making things normal again, well, I'm not sure that's 100% accurate. a surgical altered vagina is far from 'normal'.
I haven't had surgery so I can't speak from first hand experience there. but if you check out some other forums where the women have had surgery, their siggy's are scary (they list all the subsequent surgeries they've had as well).
All I can attest to is that I've not had surgery and I feel normal and comfortable and that the prolapse is not affecting my quality of life.

like I said, you have time on your side. so you can do all your reading and research and make a decision that you are comfortable with.

HI Lily,
First congrats on your baby. I'm so sorry you've had to find this community, but glad you did. It's an amazing community of women, full of wisdom and support.
I came here when 3 weeks after the birth of my second child I found my bladder hanging out, like a golf ball. it was soon followed by the posterior wall (rectocele) and a low uterus. it was horrid. i just wanted surgery to make it go away--how could i possibly live with it? then i started reading about surgery, and everything that could go wrong--incontinence, permanent pain, no sex, inability to lift anything. then i felt devastated--there was no fix to this--i just had to live with this golf ball and peeing every two minutes, but what life was that???! then i found this site...and it's changed my life.

so fast forward a year and a half. my son was sick for the last two weeks, and lived in my arms. i barely put him down (no idea what he weighs, but guessing 25lb?), and barely felt my prolapses. i never believed i could be like this. it's not perfect--i have to watch my eating so i don't get constipated which can be frustrating as it never used to be a problem (but according to my physio surgery would be unlikely to change that), i have to be careful what i lift (but if i'd had surgery it would be much more extreme), and sometimes things get a bit worse if i'm ill or whatever which i do find scary. but compared to where i started out, i can't complain.

and...8 weeks is so early. i'd say the bulk of my healing came between 4 to 8 months, but kept on going at least up until a year pp--when it really slowed down. but even then, i'm better now than i was 4 months ago...so obviously it does keep improving, just much more subtle now.

i would just say whatever you do, don't jump into anything. i know that even though i had grade 3 (ie severe) prolapses, everyone said i wouldn't need surgery, that things would improve a lot over the 1st year, and a specialist surgeon said i might choose (ie choose, not need!) surgery, but that really i was better off living with prolapses if i could. now i know the NHS is strained, but I don't think he was just trying to shorten the waiting list!

hope that all gives you some hope...so take it easy, look after yourself, take on the posture (see FAQ's), and give it time. things will change...

Kiki

and I am tired tonight. First. Look in the "articles" section under the main page (I think) to find the self-exam. You Lilly have to power to have knowledge about your body. You have the ability to know 100% more than any doctor could possibly know about your own body. You do. Find your power.
Second. Please. You have seen a doctor. You know you are not in ANY danger. Please give your body time. You are 8 weeks out. Your body can heal. Give it 18 months. If you still feel the same way then start your research into surgery. See the specialists. For now trust that your body can and will heal. Any doctor who recommends surgery to you at this point is #1. only thinking about his bottom line and #2. uneducated greatly and not to be trusted.
Third. This "condition" is so very normal. The vagina settles. That is what it does. Right now you have some laxity and muscle weakness (to be expected for sure and totally normal) - and that will improve greatly as time goes by and you get stronger but your vagina will never ever be the same as it was before having children. Hey that is fine. It isn't supposed to be the same-pregnancy and childbirth change a woman- inside and out.
I have been where you are. I have 3 kiddos and found my rectocele after the third. I am 28 years old. My "baby is almost 2 and for the last year I have felt great. Not "oh well this is my new normal" but fantastic. I can run, swim, chase my kids, stay up late, cook and clean, enjoy my vacations all with no symptoms what so ever. I only know about my prolapse because I am curious. I like to have a crazy day on my feet all day and running around and then check it out just to see how it might change- and it does. It will feel a bit larger (to my finger- not that I feel it when I am walking around at all anymore) sometimes and other times back to the normal, base -line- size I am now as used to feeling as I am the inside of my mouth- and amazingly, sometimes getting smaller and only presenting as a slight weakness in one small spot- which gives me faith that one day it will be completely gone.
At 8 weeks postpartum I couldn't cook dinner without laying down on the kitchen floor the pressure was so intense, the bulge so uncomfortable. I had shooting pains in my rectum frequently during the day and my tailbone ached. As soon as my husband got home I was in bed for the night-6 o'clock. I was so scared. I talked with him about it and he was worried for me (especially the sleeping/ depression thing I went through) and really wanted a solution. Just like I did.
I found this site and read and read and read and searched the search function and read ALL the old posts. And I started to have a little hope. One great concern I had was that women didn't report long term (and still is a concern actually)- but we now have a handful of women reporting years of Living well with prolapse and I am one of them. I got the book and the DVD and soaked up as much information as I could- comparing it to my own understanding of the body. And you know what? It all started to make sense to me. This idea of holding the body in such a way as to properly position the organs over bone. I started the posture and in just a short while the tail-bone- pain left me. I learned a type of yoga breathing that has strengthened my anterior wall so much that my cystocele is totally gone (called Nauli). Then I started having more good hours than bad- then hours turned into days- and then I would just have a few rough days a month- until all of the sudden I couldn't even hardly remember when I had trouble standing in the kitchen.
Now I guess I still sort of "obsess" over my vagina and I can guarantee you I think more about it than most of the women I know- but it is an awareness.
I still take it easy if I need to. I still pick up kids toys on hands and knees- I now let my husband do ALL the lifting- my kiddos can all climb into their car seats and they know I am not going to pick them up- but instead come down to their level.
I wanted a quick fix and I got one. If you think quick is 2 years and hard work. I do. I have no unpleasant side effects from my hard work. I move differently, I dress differently, and I eat differently and I am glad for the change. I am healthier for it.
I know you have to travel this your way and I hope that soon you will know that your vagina is sexy no matter how it 'looks'- it is such a private place that you share only with your husband and it isn't a beauty pagent-it only matters that the two of you can still have a good time together and that depends as much on your confidence and opinion of yourself as it does on him (oh man and in my intimate moments it isn't like there is a spotlight on that area anyway). Some women find that after surgery no matter how "good: their vagina looks it doesn't function right anymore and they can't have a good time- scar tissue and pain get in the way. You gave life to your babies. Your vagina played a vital role in that event (twice :0). You are amazing. Your body has done amazing things.

Hi and welcome - I am Sue and I have a grade 3 prolapse - And I am still not entertaining the thought of surgery :-)

You are ok - You are post partum and no matter what scare stories the docs give yo - They only know hat they are taught - And that is to offer what they are taught and not tell about anything bad or anything else (My own Gynae I found on his secretive site for just docs talks of a different side of prolapse than he mentions to the patient! - The paperwork he gives out mentions NO bad points - But on this site I found it tells a different story!)

Apart from that in your first post partum year you will see very much change. My prolapse did not come on post partum - I believe this damage was done in a very instrumental birth I had in the late eighties...

Now - Life is a lil bit different. But I still do what I want to do. IT does not rule MY life :-)

I am sure that you will learn alot here - Meet some fantastic women and hear their stories... There are many websites that tell you about surgery - To be honest they tell a scary story...

I hope you will stay with us and know that in a year a hell of alot can change :-)

I havent been around that much lately as it's school hols and I have been out there enjoying the few sunny days we have had here - lol

Sue

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

Hey Lilly,
Welcome to the forum. I'm new as well...first posted 2 weeks ago. I'm 3 months postpartum and am having a lot of the same feelings as you. I so badly wish that surgery was a good option. I'd love to hear what your gyn doctor has to say. I haven't seen a specialist yet...but i want to. Hang in there. I was really uplifted when I read alemama's response. I'm having a lot of pain/pressure right now and it's good to hear that it resolves for some people. I think I might try a V2 supporter...especially at work b/c I have to stand up for longer than I would like.
kath333

i would just say...stick with this kath!
3 months is still so early! my organs were still settling at 2 - 3 months, forget lifting! it was around 4 months i started to really notice change, and be able to walk without feeling horrible. but i can remember--lifting the water jug was horrid, i felt so much pressure! and the tailbone pain--i forgot all about that! i had so many horrible symptoms that slowly slowly disappeared, and i would forget i ever had them.

it is true, there aren't a lot of long term stories on here--i think because women find healing and get on with their lives without worrying about their prolapses. my physio sees tons of women with prolapses and very few need surgery, and slowly life just resumes in it's own new way--same life, less lifting ;-) (give those men a purpose!). i know that now that this isn't in my mind so much i don't come as often (that and i had other health concerns--great way to distract yourself!). but i've made a conscious decision that even if it's only once a week, i'll check in--so that i offer the hope to others i too was given when i arrived, depressed, terrified, and in misery... thankfully a sad and distant memory.

kiki

I want your Gynae :-)

Now that is someone who is or seems to be - Nice - Yes he offered dsurgery in the future - But on the whole he seemed great - And - As we all know - The surgery thing - We can just bin as an Idea...

Well done to you - Wish mne was that wonderful (Mine was great at first but now seems to think 'A litle op'' is the answer to all lifes ills - GRRR

lol

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

Hi lilly

That's great news. It sounds like your gyn has things in perspective. You are lucky to have him. I really think that POP is largely a problem in our heads. It is not life threatening at all, though it *can* aggravate other health problems and reduce quality of life. Yes, of course there is also that horrible fullness and the pelvic organs do sag down but it is the effect on our self image that is the real problem; the feeling that we are damaged, imperfect, past our best aesthetically and sexually, not worthy of love and care etc. To get that sort of reassurance from a doctor is indeed good medicine!

You have the rest of your life to conserve your pelvic structures. Don't put it off until the symptoms are unbearable. Just start now and you will be giving yourself the best chance possible of avoiding the necessity for surgery later on, by restructuring your posture, rethinking your clothing and diet, and working out ways you can alter the ways you do everyday tasks to avoid the worsening of symptoms and further damage to pelvic fasciae.

Best wishes

Louise

Lilly I am glad you are feeling better. I am also concerned. I don't think it is business as usual. Yes my prolapse is better- but it didn't get that way by doing a few pelvic floor exercises. In fact prolapse is not caused by weak pelvic floor muscles. I think I remember you saying you are very active and that you exercise. I suggest paying close attention to your body when you are running or lifting weights. You will know what is going to work for you and what will make things worse.
Prolapse is certainly not life threatening. Of course you could have more children if you choose (although you may notice that your symptoms return in the early postpartum phase- and also early in pregnancy). I am glad that your GYN didn't act like prolapse was some horrible thing- but it also isn't his body and he doesn't get to live with it the rest of his life- and of course he has no idea what it is like to have a prolapse or he would not have told you to go on as if nothing was going on.
Please stay upbeat and hopeful about this. I don't mean to be sour. I just know you can live symptom free with a few changes in your life-style. Slowing down has been a blessing for me. My kids love that I hang out on the floor and don't run around like a mad woman all day. I enjoy my beautiful skirts and my feminine posture. I am healthier for the food I now choose to eat and so is my family. I am also happy to be so aware of my own body and to know my physical limits (which by the way are not many- I have been camping, running, swimming...even doing back flips). I have great faith that with my continued awareness and thoughtful movements and choices I will never have to even consider surgery.
I strongly suggest getting the book and getting an education about this condition that you have and will have for the rest of your life. Or you can just trust your doctor and then you will have someone else to blame when it doesn't come out like he says it will.....

Thanks from me, too, Alemama...I've been too busy babysitting and making lunch for a bunch to respond to Lilly, but luckily you took the words out of my mouth! Learn the true story of your anatomy, Lilly, and why there is no pelvic floor! Kegels as traditionally taught are entirely misconceived and thus far PT has not much more to offer women with prolapse. Doctors have only recently taken the line, "Go on with your life, prolapse is not life threatening...surgery will come much later." What your doctor didn't tell you is that prolapse is an uncomfortable and progressive disorder unless you stabilize and reverse symptoms by once again returning to your pelvic organ support system - a conceptual framework entirely missed (and ignored) by medical science. Cheers! Christine

I represent myself with this comment, not the group as a whole or Christine.

How many people really set their ego (or embarrassment) aside to follow up with their doc that the procedure didn't work? I am a very assertive woman, but when I took my daughter in for something and the remedy the doc gave made it worse, I just told the nurse. She gave me a remedy, which didn't help in the least!! Did I call back to let them know? Did I ask for my money back? No chance. This scenario happens all the time. Let's not be so uninformed to think that humans are made for assembly line health care, that one size fits all, or that doctors really have the corner on human health. Compare the US medical care to other countries and you will find that we are lagging way behind many countries in several significant arenas. In maternity care, for one example, we are #28 in the world (behind 27 other countries)in our rates for a good outcome. 27 other countries! And the top 5 don't even use hospitals and doctors the way we do in the states, they use midwives and have a lot more homebirths! I only share this to illustrate that "doctor" is different that "all-knowing." And in the case of prolapse, their information is so limited. They are doing their best with what they've got. Christine has done more research on prolapse than one of them. That was her research focus for years. That is what she wrote a book about. See her references, anyone of those midwives, OBs or doctors that wrote her a comment about her book would admit that she is an authority on the subject and moreso than they. Just like a breastfeeding problem would be best taken to a lactation consultant over an OBGYN. The lactation consultant spent a few years on just that specific subject, an OBGYN spent NONE. The Pediatrician, who we see for feeding issues, spent less than ONE HOUR on study of breastfeeding. It drives me crazy! I recently volunteered at a medical outreach and the doc I was translating for didn't know that a woman would do well to avoid sugar if she has a yeast infection. "Well, I know yeast grows in a petry dish with sugar, but not in a body..." I was dumbfounded. A body is a perfect petry dish...and if that information was not pertinent, why in the world are we trying to learn about human body functioning in a petry dish if the results won't have human significance. He was so surprised. (A doctor of more than 20 years.)He promptly turned to the woman he was talking to and encouraged her to avoid sugar.

Okay, so back to my topic, someone having had a pelvic surgery...they just complain to their friends and family about the pain from surgery, that sex is so different, etc. that the surgery didn't work. My grandma, who is still has a busy life and is very active (she is a professional square dancer) had pelvic repair surgery on a medium level prolapse. A year later, when she could not put up quietly with the bad result, she went in for another one. When, after some time, that one passed its time of amazing renewal, she is experiencing pain and organs lowering again. Who does my grandma tell that since her prolapse repair, she has to manually push her bladder to get the urine out? That doc, like most, has 30 years of doing 20 year old procedures with people without any return policy...if it goes wrong...well, sorry, but I do have a lot of experience with that follow-up repair, which, by the way, is also no big deal. but, do you think she is going to go back to her doc for another repair surgery of prolapse surgery repair surgery? or to complain? she'll quietly just keep making herself pee manually.

There is a book about maternity care: The Farmer and the Obstetrician by Michel Odent, the premise applies here, too: the farmer gets paid for the goods that come out of his efforts.the doc just gets paid for what he puts in, despite the outcome.

I agree that we need to look forward - But - Please do not just believe what your Dr says to you - I know mine lies - I found a doctors only website and in that site he tells totally different story on acertain repair than he told me to my face and in the paperwork he gives out 'selling' this 'fix' (And i say fix as its the pitch not that its a fix)

Just because someone is a Doctor - Doesnt mean every word they utter is real. They sell their wares as much as any market trader. This is their job - Without it - They would be out of work.

I agree with Alemama - The way I finally (and it took alot o work) got to grips with this was getting through inside of myself to a different mimdset. Teling myself - This will not en my life - This oes not hurt me - It is just a pain in the a$$ to know about. Now - Coming toward a year of having a grade 3 - Life is VERY different from when I found it. Life is Good :-)

I still have a grade 3. But I have accepted lil POPpy as a part of me - And she nd I share this body... At cerain times of the month I feel it more than others. I am lucky I get no pain. I am lucky my partner and I did not let this rip us apart - In fact I think he is one of the few men who care to understand about POP and how it has affected life. It hasnt ended our sex life, it has not ended 'us' (And we wavered for a while when I was at my lowest - I wanted him to free himself of me - To move on to a 'non broken' woman. He stood by me :-) And we are stronger and happier for that.

As Alemama said I dont feel so downtrodden by it. - But at first I WAS totally floored by it. But - A couple of months of sitting feeling sorry for myself was boring as hell - So I moved on. I changed a couple of things I do - And I feel so much better for it. :-) Life is life - Women in the 'old days' They lived their lives - They didnt have surgeries to run for, their lives were much harder than ours today also...

I am glad that the words imparted to me - They fell into my head enough that for the time I was 'lost' in feeling down and stuff - That the words held fast inside of my head - And carried me through... And I can be nothing but thankful for that!!!

OK a bit of my post dissapeared - eeps... I think i pressed the wrong button...
lol

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

I just want to address the issue of whether or not the medical system is qualified to treat pelvic organ prolapse. I say unequivocally “not.”

My reasoning has nothing to do with conspiracy theories, but rather a clear understanding that medical science is without an accurate anatomical foundation from which to inform and treat women with these disorders.

In reality, prolapse is being treated by the wrong medical specialty. It is orthopedists who should be treating prolapse, but as we know, only one specialty was set aside for “diseases of women” some 150 years ago.

If gynecologists understood prolapse they would never say such things as “Don’t bear down.” We bear down all the time – just as we lift and run and jump – because we understand that when our spine is in its correct shape our organs are protected over their true floor, which are the pubic bones that come together like the straps of a saddle underneath us.

The pelvic opening is at the BACK. Therefore, we practice the beautiful human posture that nature intended and in doing so keep our pelvic organs toward the FRONT where they remain nestled in the hollow of our relaxed lower belly.

This is a huge paradigm shift that is not easily understood by women new to this work. I wish you all success with PT, Lilly, and hope you will refer all your caregivers to wholewoman.

I realize at this point it is a waste of time to even bother... No one says there is a hidden agenda. The agenda is well known. Where do you imagine the NHS gets it's funding? How do doctors justify funding for surgeries? How do they get the government assistance they run on? They have to show their necessity. That is how. There certainly would not be funding for unnecessary surgeries. Is a face lift free? Breast implants? Is it free to have your big toe removed if you decide your cute shoes don't fit as well with it as with out? I already know the answer- of course not.
Gynecology has a pretty sordid history. Even as late as the 1950's doctors in the USA were performing clitoridectomy on little girls. That is the removal of the clitoris. In infants and children. It isn't a conspiracy. It isn't paranoia. It is recorded medical fact. Women are still castrated every day for absolutely no reason. Then they develop cancer from the hormone replacement therapy (that the wonderful doctor recommended) again not conspiracy- just a well documented fact.
Here is the worst part. Women get behind these doctors. They say- "oh well, you are the specialist, you must know more than me" and then when it all goes wrong they either sign up for a repeat fix (which statistically...ahem more fact here) don't work as well or last as long) and when that one doesn't work they just suck it up and go on with their lives- just as babygotback's grandmother is doing.
No one here is anti doctors or anti surgery. We support fully necessary surgery. Operations for things like brain cancer- as you mentioned.
We also fully support each woman and her ability to make her own decisions.
I know I have probably offended you badly and you won't listen to a word I say. But please- please buy the book. Educate yourself. Know the facts.
There are many different ways to tell a lie. You can lie outright of course or you can just leave out some important information or you can lie simply because you yourself are ignorant of the truth (as many doctors unfortunately are).
You do want to know how many women find this site after they have already had the surgery. How sad they are that they were too late to know how to care for themselves.
Learn the real truth. Take a little study of gynecology throughout history. Buy the book- Saving the WholeWoman. The more truth you uncover the less crazy you will find us all.

hmm. somehow I missed the last 14 posts here.

sooo coming in late, I'd like to add my $.02

I'm a Physical Therapist. I know how to Kegel. I started a Kegel program the moment I saw a positive on the pg test I took with my firstborn. I kegeled the 'right way'. all the time. really, I had strong pelvic muscles. I kept this up for the next 8 years, through 3 pg's and pp periods. my pelvic 'floor' was so strong I could probably have cracked walnuts with those muscles. and yet that did not prevent a prolapse.

so where's the logic? If a strong pelvic 'floor' cannot prevent a prolapse, how on G-d's green earth can strong muscles prevent a present prolapse from worsening or reverse the prolapse? Taken in context of physiotherapy, this just does not make sense.

the answer of course, is that those muscles were never designed to hold up our pelvic organs. by simply changing your posture, you can keep your bladder over bone instead of hanging over a hole, and prevent further damage. add some simple exercises (ie firebreathing, plies, nauli) and you can possibly reverse the existant bulge.

so I wouldn't call your dr a salesman or a liar. I believe he truly has your best interests at heart. he just doesn't know about prolapse in this amount of detail because, well, the history's all in the book and I wouldn't do it justice paraphrasing here.
and really, what have you got to lose? no one's telling you not to see the physio. you can do both.

you don't even have to buy anything (though I totally recommend the book, it really explains the anatomy better than anything I got in PT school), you can learn anything you need to know by reading the faqs, the old posts and asking questions.

Where is Louise to make us all sound sane...

Lilly, I am SO glad you felt better after your visit. It was a real comfort that the doctor answered your questions to your satisfaction. He determined that he would not recommend surgery, a response you really hoping for. You must have left that office feeling much lighter. I am so glad for you.

My response earlier was based on two things: 1, a concern when I read in your posts of so much confidence in medical authority. I am not anti-doctor, I am pro-intuition, which may guide me to an allopathic (standard medicine) or alternative resource. 2, I wanted to share, since you were asking, some information about how surgery might be, based on my grandma's situation.

Anyway, I hope you can feel good. There is a lot to learn about prolapse. Christine has done so much research, I would not dismiss it lightly. You will see some mouth-dropping about her information based on her research from the medical authorities that endorsed her book. Being a women's health professional, I recognize the names of her supporters as very significant respected authorities about women's health.

Take care, Lilly. Sorry if I was more strong that was comfortable in what I shared. Again, I am not anti-doctor, I am pro-informed consumerism. It is after all YOU who will think about your procedure in 5 years, long after they have forgotten your name.

Best wishes.
BGB

Hi Babygotback

Honest, I just had a sleep for the night! It is 10.39am here at the moment and I have just read all the new posts from the last 14 hours. Whoo!!

I figured this thread would develop, as I could see that Lilly was quite fixed in her ideas and I knew that all the Wholewomen would challenge that thinking, which everyone has. I was going to do another post and go into more detail but you have *all* taken all the wind out of my sails with your very commonsense responses to Lilly.

Lilly, none of us is perfect. I have had some very good physio experiences, and some that did not get to the root of my problem at the time. I have had favourable and unfavourable experiences with general practitioners, medical specialists, chiropractors, naturopaths etc. I treat doctors and physiotherapists as two of my health care team and recognise that, like all professionals, they are fallible. They cannot know everything, particularly when a model comes along that is based on a different anatomical model. They just can't get their heads around it. There is so much information they have to take in. I don't think your doctor is lying, but some do, particularly when pressed for an answer to something they know little about, and are not prepared to admit it, or they think they know the answer. Hey, they are human and most would openly admit they don't know everything about the body. ;-)

It is my personal responsibility to choose whom I engage to treat me. To put my health exclusively and unquestioningly in the hands of a person who has a particular qualification is simply blinkered thinking. To give them responsibility for deciding on what therapy I will have, even if the research is not there to justify that advice, is giving your body away. (And I would add that there is no research to back up the use of Kegels to fix prolapse. Look for it yourself, and please post it here if you can find it! It would be great to think that Kegels help prolapse, but they only strengthen the muscles of the pelvic floor which is a relatively minor player in the POP picture. They will not fix the prolapse. Kegels will also help with some aspects of incontinence).

As you are still recovering from childbirth Kegels are still relevant because they mobilise the pelvic floor muscles and get them working again after being loose and stretched. This can be very useful. However, they will not move your pelvic organs up. Your physiotherapist will probably be able to teach you all sorts of useful stuff, but it is still up to you to use your critical thinking skills to assess any information given to you, and ensure that it is congruent with other information that you trust.

You can read my POP story in the Personal Stories Forum. I have been doing Wholewoman techniques for four years now, and have much more significant prolapses of longer standing than you currently have. There is no way I would consider surgery now. If my organs really do take a dive in my post-menopausal years, maybe I will consider it later. The experiences of post-menopausal women on this site lead me to believe that it won't get worse, as long as I keep doing what I am doing. That knowledge of other (older) women's experiences is what gives me hope, and helps me to see through the wives' tales and myths of prolapse. These are real women who have chosen not to pursue the surgical route.

Thankyou older Wholewomen for sharing our experiences! ((((Hugs)))) to all of you.

Lilly, I would have no rational reason to support Christine's work the way I do if it was erroneous. The evidence I have from my personal experience, the experiences of other Wholewomen here, the testimonials from influential writers and practitioners who have written in the front of Saving the Whole Woman, is that it is all true. What more proof do you need???? Women will get more help with managing prolapse from Christine and each other than they will get from physios and doctors.

Once again, to put it in perspective, your POP's are not major at this stage, and Kegels and physiotherapy will do you no harm, and probably a lot of good.

*However*, to ignore the postural and other Wholewoman techniques is to invite further POP as you have more babies and as your body ages. We are all so lucky to have found Wholewoman. Why ignore it when you can utilise it for the benefit of your own body?????

Hope you have read this far and will be able to open your mind over time to take in the truth of Christine's work as you read more women's stories.

Cheers again.

Louise

I hate to upset you but I am also in the UK - And Doctors DO lie here!
They are not out there just pandering to 'help' And I am sorry to say you seem very blinkered. The Gynae I mentioned is an NHS Gynae - And he said one story to my face/computer an a completely different one on his personal site, where he listed the flaws in a certain surgery that he was then 'selling' to me.

If every word a Doctor said was true - We would have no medical negligence cases, we would all sing the praises of every doctor. And even my own GP is not someone I would hand my freedom of my body to - As ll they know is what they have been taught. And as time gos by we learn more things - EVERY person who comes up with a radical new idea is called a fool in the beginning - But - Years down the line - Amazingly - Alot of these people are suddenly accepted - Because all of a sudden they realise what this knowledge holds. Keep Christines name in your mind - You will be hearing it in the future :-) In the meantime - Never lay your body on the 'chopping block' as after the fact (As we have seen here over the years) When the Doctor runs out of ideas to fix the fix of the fix of the fix, they then seem to just give up - Or pass you on to someone else who will either tell you it's in your head - Or - Hey maybe you would be lucky and get a few good years...

Personally that is a rolling of the dice I ain't a rollin.

We have all come to this site because of one thing - POP. If you read other forums who sell sell sell surgery as the anser - And you read or questioned - You would find (Not only in their siggys that list the surgeries they had year by year) You would find it's not all a bed of roses. The surgery is not a fixit - That much is obviouswhen you read read read.

Louise talks sense. If you do nothing else - Read the FAQs with an open mind and if you read other sites - Read between the lines in the words they say.

Good luck :-)

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

I don't think anyone has ganged up on you - I just found your replies to be blinkered believing that a Doctor (or any human) knows all

Sorry if that hurts - I really am - But here we say what we feel.

If you think the ideas are ridiculous then I feel sorry for you, because I am probably one of those people who believe nothign - But I came here and within WEEKS my POP was not the initial problem it was - It has been about 4 years now - And if it was all in my head - I woulda noticed by now As pre - WW - My POP was a right pain - Now it isn't.

I think one day you will find that the support here is not surgery related as if youhad read the literature, you would see what the 'little op' truly emtails.

I am sorry your mind is not open to a new way of living. It saddens me.

If you are a sceptic - That is fine - But if you have tried and tested the work that has taken oh so many years to perfect - You would see it from a different angle.

Christine has put many many years into this work. In the book alot of Doctors have congratulated her and said this WILL cause a stir - When has a new angle on things not? Once upon a time it was just a thing to do to give a woman a routine episiotomy - Now it isnt as they found - Over the years - That this is not needed, and not good. Everything starts as a theory and works from there. Christines work may not be what you have heard of here in the UK. But - It will be... I am in the UK - I have seen many doctors for many things - And I know they do not tell the truth as I have lived it (Not POP related - They aint touching me there!!!)

I am sorry that you feel ganged up upon - That is not the case - I found your posts to be inciting replies - There are oh so very many women here who live with POP and live well for their whole lives. This is why we are here - But we do not believe that surgery fixes all - As we have read the literature and had women come here to tell us their stories of surgery - And it was not a happy story to read to be honest.

To be honest I personally felt like you were ridiculting Chrostines work. We all stand by her here - She has done alot for us. She has done alot for me - And I cannot sit idly by and read her theory ridiculed.

You said
If you want to believe that the entire medical establishment knows nothing about prolapse, that's your decision. You're obviously privvy to information that they are not. If you presented all your observations about the female body to the world's Doctors, would they all gasp in surprise...? If they'd only known what you know, prolapse would've been handled / treated so differently...? Sounds like fantasy to me.

That is ridiculing Christine - And I personally ask you not to. Because she has spent half her life working on this - And to spend tie and money on it and then for someone to cmoe in and say its a fantasy - HURTS feelings.

YOu said her crusade is bordering on the ridiculous - That is closed minded - As any new theory is discounted until suddenly accepted and its all wahey great.

This is not ridiculous or paranoid. This is learning - sharing and changing lives. Had you read the book, your mind would be imparted with far more information.

To be honest I have the feeling you ont read the book as you have discounted it already. I am sorry for you. But in the meantime our lives will move forward until all of us - Will come out and show how this work - VERY important work - Has changed our lives.

Sorry if thatupsets - It is not meant to but your posts hurt :-( Saying this is ridiculous - That hurts.

I hope you find your answers, I am sorry we obviously do not fulfil what you want from us.

I would hope that other people could learn that when something works - It works - And you dont care what others think. I would hope that you find your way, without surgery Lilly. And I am sorry we are not what you want.

You said in your first post you were confused. Please take time to open your mind - Confusion will leave and when understanding settles - Then you will know what we know and you will be able to know you will go through your life without being manhandled internally and changed forever more - In ways you cannot undo.

I am not against surgery in any way - But THIS surgery - That is different. I had surgery for something lastyear (Not POP) But not all surgeries are equal and not all doctors are as open - And if my NHS gynae can tell me two differing stories - So could yours.

Please just read through the site and learn. Always keep an open mind.

Take care....

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

lilly, I again, apologize for my unclear post.
I didn't accuse you of 'having your panties in a bunch', though I admit it may have come across that way. I thought I explained that already, but maybe that wasn't clear either. so I'll double apologize.
what I meant was that sometimes people think I mean I am against all surgery and I am against all women who choose surgery. you asked why I am choosing to avoid surgery, and that's all I meant to answer. I was hoping to preempt a heated 'surgery vs anti surgery' debate and I see that it was poorly worded.

so again, I'm sorry that I came across offensive. but it WASNT aimed at you.

lets all take a moment to remember that on the internet 'tone' is lost. so what I say sounds benign in my mind, and comes across offensive to someone else. I readily admitted as much.

it goes both ways, sometimes I take offense when the author of a post meant nothing negative by what she wrote.

I think, just based on what I know of alemama, sue, and everyone else who's been posting on this thread, that no one meant to drag you down. no one feels threatened by your desire to listen to mainstream medicine. we just wanted to point out the flaws in your drs advice. if he sends you to physio and says future surgery might be necessary, and we know of a method by which future surgery would be unnecessary, why would you want us to keep that to ourselves?

speaking for myself here, I don't dismiss conventional medicine out of hand. I've learned some lessons the hard way and only hoped to spare another woman the trouble. conventional medicine has its place, but I will never again be one to believe that my dr (or anyone's dr for that matter) has all the answers. at the end of the day, I live with my body, with the decisions made regarding it. even if your gyn is a woman with a prolapse, she can never be the expert on your body. only you can be. and that doesn't mean that you don't ever call in other experts as consultants! I'm no expert on anything else, so I need all the advice and experience I can get. but I will question everything everyone tells me and take it in the context of what I do know - my body.
thats all.

we're a bunch of strong personalities here, so maybe we came on too strong for your liking. I'm sorry if that was the case, and I hope we can move past that.

argueing isn't good for prolapse (I made that up)

I'm sorry i just find the tone and certain words in your post argumentative and belittling and a tad sarcastic and - Well I won't go on as there is no point.

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

Hi Lilly, I have been a long time member of the forum and just checked in to the thread. I am so pleased that you had such a positive appointment with your doctor. Personnally I found physical therapy very helpful check back on my old postings for more information. The posture has been invaluable to me and I remain very active with running, weight lifting etc. You seem to have realistic expectations of PT in that it is not a cure but with the right physical therapist (as I found) it can be a good compliment for Christine's work. I have worked for several years to find the right balance of how many kegels to not aggravate the rectocele but still help to prevent incontinence.

I'm not sure what happened with this thread but my interpretations of your posts was all positive. I don't read any criticism of the WW work, stick around for the support you will need. This has been my first forum experience and online posts definately can come across unsupportive even when thery are not intended in that manner. It is easy for those of us who have been around for awhile to forget that this a is a learning curve that is unique to each of us for what works and does not work. Good Luck!

Please feel free to post and gain all you can. I am sure thi thread can be put int he past and to be moved beyond :-)

Sometimes youre holding someone else's heart in your hands. You can drop that heart & bruise it. You can squash that heart & hurt it. Or you can stomp on it & totally annihalate it. You stomp on that heart or bruise it. It can forever be changed ♥

All are welcome, sometimes I log in and just read and other times I lurk (read without logging in) depending on what computer I'm using. If you go through old posts you will see several occasions of "intense debate" and some occasions of miscommunications that are resolved. I really believe that these discussions are very important to building the information base that is needed to help further research on women's health in this case POP. Forum exchanges can come across harsh and are more difficult to resolve than direct verbal exchanges. However just think where we would be without this forum, sitting isolated in our homes thinking we were the only ones with POP,afraid and with without any information.

Lilly. You have made some pretty darn inflammatory statements in this thread. I just went back and read this whole thing and with the exception of my "your ignorance is frustrating" NO ONE has said anything unkind or unsupportive. I stand by my statement (though I acknowledge I could have said it in a more sensitive way). You say your mind is open yet you made two very sarcastic remarks directly to Christine (which by the way no one called you on until Sue's post and she did so in a very kind way- stating that she personally felt attacked). You made many blanket statements about this forum and the group paranoia, conspiracy theories, and our hypocrisy. You accused us of being saleswomen for goodness sakes (which as granolamom kindly explained there is no requirement to buy anything and as Louise explained we all are just so grateful to have this information we want to share it with everyone). Your posts come across as demeaning, sarcastic, and rude.

I have seen some very kind apologies to you (more than once for the same thing even)- sincerely made and everyone giving you the benefit of the doubt. A true testament to our core nature.

We have given of ourselves to you. We have lifted you up and supported you while kindly suggesting you learn a little more about your condition and pointing you in the direction we all found relief from.

At this point there is nothing left to give you. I am glad you found this forum. I am sincerely glad that your condition is mild. I hope that you will learn WholeWoman techniques for managing your prolapse and that you will join us in gathering information about non-surgical management of prolapse.

Hi Lilly,

I agree with PA Runner. I don't see anything negative in your posts. In fact, the only negative thing I saw in any of the posts was about your ignorance being frustrating. In my opinion, that was rude and uncalled for.

What I got from your posts is that you are seeking all the information you can gather so you know what options are available to you. That's the wise thing to do. I urge you to continue to do that. Please continue to make WW part of your research. You will get much valuable information here. Ignore the people with tunnel vision. There is no one right answer for everyone, no matter what they say.

I wish you good luck with your decision and whatever that decision is, I believe it should be respected. Only you can decide what's best for you.

Warmest regards,

Mae

I'm new here as well and your posts really connected with me. I have yet to see a dr b/c I have no insurance at the time (I'm in the states). Your posts really helped me immensely, as did some of the positive replys that you received. I do hope you continue to post and share your progress. I'm reading over the boards as often as I can to find information that I can use (I'm working on the posture although I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly...lol) and I found what your dr said very interesting and helpful as well. (Not that I'm diagnosing myself through your visit, just taking what info I can.) Thanks again for posting and thanks to everyone who have shared their experiences here. I feel like I've found somewhere that other women actually understand and talk about what is going on within their bodies! Many blessings!

This site is amazing and I only wish I had the information 10 years ago before my hysterectomy to ask important questions. Although to be honest, I was a cancer patient, so surgery was my option. (thank heaven I had my children)So as you all put it so well, it wasn't elective. However, this mesh and sling suggestion is!!! My question is....will the exercises and posture correction (already doing them) help if I have no uterus, cervix or ovaries? I will NOT have an elective surgery. Please someone answer.
Grateful to be alive,
Deborah

Hi Deborah

Christine initially said that once you have had the uterus removed the whole pelvic area was structured differently, so it was unlikely to help. However recently I think she has had a little success with teaching firebreathing to someone who has had surgery. She has posted about it within the last couple of weeks. There is also the nauli exercise that comes from yoga, and the postural principles, particularly in relation to supporting the bladder. I believe that the Wholewoman model of pelvic anatomy is more accurate than the medical model. Therefore, IMO you have only something to gain by amending your posture to WW posture and doing the exercises Christine has designed specifically to reinforce female pelvic structure, and not to damage it or set it up for further damage. You may have some difficulty because of the scarring that is now in your pelvic cavity, but I guess that 'suck it and see' is the way to go. If you run into difficulty then reassess. You have nothing to lose.

Cheers

Louise