Rectocele, now pg with #5, will kegels or Kegelmaster device help with rectocele?

Hi Mwest

Glad you have found us. Yes, your rectocele symptoms can be improved, maybe to the point where you are not aware of having rectocele unless you do something wrong. Then chances are that it will recover after a few days. However, you have sustained damage somewhere along the line and that damage remains for ever. You will always have rectocele, but the big question is, Does it matter if you can manage it well enough that the symptoms no longer bother you?

No, low oestrogen doesn't seem to make it worse. ie weaning doesn't seem to help and research backs this up. However, once you return to oestrus your vagina may lubricate better, which always seems to make it feel better. Some lube for the time being may help that along. I use Wholewoman Bliss Balm when I am feeling a little dry.

Kegels are useful for bladder control and in focussing your attention on your pelvic floor, which is positive both for labour and birth, and your enjoyment of sex. I personally don't think a Kegelmaster would be any extra benefit, and would not be keen to introduce anything into my vagina while pregnant, other than the normal penis etc. If you are the sort of person who needs to measure everything you might not agree.

The most important thing to do is to not strain at all when you use your bowels. This means being careful to get enough fibre, both soluble and insoluble, and plenty of water to keep the stool soft. The second thing to do is to examine your posture to ensure that you are carrying your pelvic organs well forward, so they are resting on the pubic bone, not over your vagina. In this Wholewoman posture we talk about, the pelvic floor muscles are stretched quite taut. Read the book to find out why. They are not slack as they are in normal modern tucked-tummy-and-butt posture, so they don't need to get any firmer.

Others who are pregnant with rectocele and have subsequently birthed will give you a bit more of an idea of other things you can do during pregnancy and during labour and birth.

Use the search box to find posts on toileting position and rectocele in general. There are literally thousands of posts.

I suggest that you have a good look at the main site and buy Christine Kent's book, Saving the Whole Woman, edition 2 for deeper explanation of the theory behind it all, and the workout and some other goodies that are not on the site. The book is very clearly illustrated so you can get a good understanding of what is happening in your body. You are not going to find a better place than this site and Christine's book to help you manage rectocele yourself.

Call back with more questions.

Cheers

Louise

Mwest,

I recently ordered the Kegelmaster and am expecting it to arrive any time. I will let you know if it helps. Being that you are already pregnant it's best to check with your physician before trying it. I have read that low estrogen levels DO play a factor, but being that you were able to concieve while breastfeeding would lead me to believe that it's not affecting you too severely. How far along are you?

Congratulations on your pregnancy! And, warm welcome.

Your post has prompted me to search my conscience and reply, where I have previously kept silent due to fear of judgment, and my own pain. I hope what I share will encourage you NOT to use the KM while pregnant.

I used the KM2000 for about 2.5 to 3 years. I was 7 mos. pp with #3 when I discovered prolapse. Scared out of my mind. Ordered the KM2000 about the same time as finding this site and beginning to do some of the recommended exercises (Christine's dvd). So, I progressed with using the KM - within weeks all stress incontinence completely gone. When I began, I couldn't even close the device with one spring on second position. I progressed in the end to the 12th or 13th position with 4 springs. The greatest effect was with s*x. I mean, it's amazing the difference. I could barely feel anything after 3 babies, and after using the KM, it was something I had never experienced. As far as helping prolapse, it did not make it go away, which, honestly, had been my hope. However, I did find that it helped everything feel lifted up -- and, I had to do it every two days or so to keep that benefit. I would do little test trials with myself to see if it was the KM helping -- I'd stop using it, and would definitely feel the difference. This was all before Christine developed her ballet workout, which I totally love.

OK, so here's the hard part, but I think I need to share it. I hope you will not condemn me -- well, anyway; when baby #3 was 18 mos. old, I got pregnant again. I was thrilled, needless to say!! I stopped doing the dvd workout per recommendation, and stopped using the KM as soon as I found out I was pg. Oh, at the time, I was also on a course (had been for about 10 months) of pretty heavy duty chinese herbs, the kind that really stink that you boil, also to help with this condition. OK, so I hit a point after I found out I was pg, around 7 weeks, when I got freaked out because I started feeling the bulge more. So, I contacted my midwife (who, btw, has attended over 3000 births and I really trusted) and my dr. of traditional chinese medicine about whether I could use KM while PG. Both said no problem. The woman from the KM company also said yes, USE IT during pg, even 1st trimester. So, because I was freaked out, I started using it in moderation, once every 3-4 days, or so. About a week to 10 days after I started that (I was 8 wks pg), I started bleeding. And, I ended up having a miscarriage.

So, of course, that was the first thing I thought of -- I caused it. And, who knows? I do know that my pg symptoms were much milder than before -- I had been really sick with my other 3 pgs. I mean, all 9 months sick. And, I barely felt sick- real on and off- with the most recent one. Also, I lost my pg symptoms a few days prior to miscarriage -- my midwife said that meant baby died, and that km wouldn't have caused it. Also, my chinese herbs were pretty intense. And, right before, I got sick and developed a couple of days of high fever. So, someday, I'll know, I guess.

Of course, I felt a lot of guilt and sorrow over this. I wish I had never used it. I still think sometimes about how I'd have a year and a half old baby now. And, I had really wanted a 4th child. Then my dh and I went through 2 years of me wanting another and him not. I may never have that 4th child. I guess what I m wanting to say here, is don't take the risk!! I wish I'd listened to my inner wisdom, like Louise said, not to introduce anything foreign into the vagina during pg. It's hard for me to admit that I even did it it seems so ridiculous.

So, that's my story, friends. The answer, like most difficult issues, has involved self-forgiveness. Even if I did cause it, that I forgive myself and let go. In truth, it may have happened anyway.

After it happened, I contacted my KM rep - a really nice woman who genuinely seems to care about people - because of my experience, she's now recommending that women don't use during pg.

I used the KM, a little, months after the miscarriage -- but my heart was too broken to go back to it. Not saying I'll never do it again - but with Christine's work and my rebounding work, I'm managing it better than ever. Also, there was a woman here on the forum once who believes it caused her rectocele. Conversely, there are testimonials on different sites promoting the product that say it helps with rectoceles too. I guess every person has to make their own decision and I just say, proceed gently and with caution.

Marie

Hi Mwest

I am sure that you will work through this prolapse business, as we all have. Quite honestly, it will reach a point where it does not control you any more than needing to eat and sleep, watching for traffic when crossing the road or avoiding looking directly at the sun. And you certainly won't suffer loss of quality of life once you have your management fine-tuned. And you will lose your fear.

Every day we take risks and suffer wear and tear on our bodies, taking us closer to the grave. As we get older changes happen, like slowing down, wrinkles, grey hairs and for many of us, dicky knees or hips, deteriorating eyesight or thinning skin. They are all simple body characteristics, just like the gawkiness and pimples of the teenage years and the lacerated knees of the boy learning to ride a bike. Do I still play competitive netball at the age of 55? No. Do I still climb up on the roof to clean gutters? Yes. Do I still body-surf? Yes. Do I ride bulls? No. Do I still do heavy gardening work? Yes, (but now I have a bag trolley and split up big loads and I spread the job into chunks over several days). You just work around your body's current limitations, have a bit of a grumble about it and move on.

Understanding your body is the key to not being intimidated by it, and looking after it is the key to maximising its usefulness.

Cheers

Louise

Hey mwest. I am pregnant now- in my third trimester. I posted a first trimester summary somewhere on here you can read- this is my #4. I have a 5 year old, 4 year old and a two year old. I found out about prolapse after #3. I was shocked of course- but thinking about it over several months helped me realize I had it since the first birth-and severe tear-after #2 my husband noticed it when looking at my stitches from the tear- and asked what it was- I didn't know and it went away- totally- during all my pregnancies I received care and not once did anyone notice it- after the third birth I complained to my midwife about pressure and achy feelings in my unstitched tear (they did stitch it- it just didn't hold- they ripped out) and when she was checking it out she mentioned to me that she thought I might have a 'cele' and told me to look it up on the internet.
and then I found this site. Thank goodness.
Anyway- I just thought I would let you know that for me the rectocele was at the worst in the first trimester (bulgier)- got much better during the second- and is pretty unnoticeable now that I am in the third but at the end of a long day I am in hell. but I don't think it is from the rectocele. I just hurt at my pubic bone and the ligaments that support the belly and the ones that connect the leg to the pelvis. But hey- I am 20 lbs over my normal weight and it is all in the front. I never had this trouble before- but it is something that I figure just happens after having multiple children.
Also regarding the estrogen debate- don't even think about it. I wrote a long post on here somewhere- but the basic idea was that less estrogen is actually very protective of your pelvic floor- if you do any reading on here you will stumble on how women feel before during and after a period-it boils down to an asymptomatic prolapse showing many symptoms and feeling very uncomfortable up to two weeks of every month. When you don't ovulate you can not get pregnant- this is caused by less estrogen- what could be better for prolapse than spacing pregnancy and childbirth? If you think about it more and more you will realize just how amazing the design of the body is- That nursing keeps periods away allowing the uterus to stay light and the vagina to rest- not having to bleed for months and months- that you can not get pregnant again until your body is ready- it really is beautiful. Many doctors make the 'low estrogen' comment- and it is not well thought out- yes estrogen helps healing- yes it plumps up the vaginal tissues- but it does not ever make a prolapse go away- NEVER. no matter how much you have or how much you add artificially. Think about men. They also produce estrogen- much lower levels than women- but when a man is injured a doctor does not recommend he take an estrogen supplement. It is goofy. You have more than enough. You are an estrogen queen. Especially if you can get pregnant.
Nope prolapse is caused by stretched out or damaged facia. Plain and simple.
When your baby is born you will be able to start the work we do here- until then hang around- let us know how your pregnancy is going. And chart your progress after the birth. For now you can practice the posture until it is impossible and eat supporting nourishing foods.
Congratulations on your pregnancy. I hope you will be able to enjoy it more in the coming months. The second trimester is a beautiful thing- the uterus pops forward and pulls everything up with it.
oh ya and...keep on nursing if you like- it is a beautiful thing :) and won't bother your prolapse.

I honestly don't have words to express what's in my heart. only I'm so so sorry you lost that baby, and I know how badly you want/ed a fourth.
I'm sure there is some Greater Plan, and whether or not the KM had anything to do with the loss, it was NOT your fault.

I like to think there is a set of common experiences that will eventually define the healthiest path for women. In other words, that we ourselves will eventually define the right course of action regarding health procedures, practices, etc. Thank you for this important contribution, Marie, and I so feel your pain!! xxxxxxxChristine

THANK YOU so much for your heartfelt response. I really feel your support, and can't tell you how much it means to me. It is a gift to me because I really felt embarrassed sharing this with you all. It was hard. Having Mwest post about thinking about using the KM brought up feelings because in a way, I wish I had posted here about it before I used it. It caused me to reexamine it again. We share a bit of sisterhood, Gmom, as we were pg at the same time.

I agree you are right -- there's no way to know what caused it. And, I don't want to give you the impression that I live everyday in grief over it -- I don't!! But from time to time it surfaces. And, my dh and I are doing just great -- we've reached a real point of solidarity over this issue; whether it means there will be another baby or not, I don't know. There are many complex factors at play. I feel so grateful to have such an amazing, supportive, loyal partner.

And, MWest, even though it triggered feelings, I am so grateful you thought to ask - and for such a warm, supportive and lovely response. I certainly wish you well through your pregnancy. I know that pg with prolapse must not be a piece of cake. It's good that you have the encouragement of other women here who are paving the way. And, I meant to say, there is so much reason for hope for you -- I for one am so grateful for the pioneering work Christine is doing here.

These past days, I try to say the serenity prayer "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". And, I do have a sense of a greater plan -- thank you for reminding me!!

Warmly, your friend,

Marie

You were hugging while I was writing to gmom!! Thank you so much. Your words about it ring so true -- just wish lessons weren't so painful sometimes. Thank you for your contribution to helping us learn to listen to ourselves and our guidance within. You all have helped me to feel glad about taking the risk to be honest. xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxooxoxox Marie

Okay ladies,

I did receive the KM and it's sitting upstairs in my bedside drawer. If you read my original post, you would know that we are trying to concieve. THANK YOU for posting about your very personal experience Marie. I have been nervous about using it for the same fear. Now that I have read your post and those posted by others I feel that the risk/reward trade off isn't worth it. Best of luck with this pregnancy and I try to remember that the Lord doesn't throw more at us than we are capable of dealing with at any one time.

Shantell

I am extremely grateful that my experience using KM while pg has deterred two of you from using it. While it's unknown whether it really had anything to do with my miscarriage, it's my firm conviction it is NOT worth the risk. Dealing with prolapse during pg presents intense challenges at times, I am sure. I know it did for me post partum. Most distressing was how anxious it made me feel about my ability to hold my insides in. Do all that you can to stay comfortable -- GMom, Alamama, Full of Grace and others of you are paving the way to living well, pregnant, with POP! And, know that in the future, you will be able to use the strength and experience of this group, your anatomy, and our body's inclination to be well and heal, to live well post partum. I'd imagine the challenge while pg is to not let it get you down. Good luck to you, Shantell as you ttc!

Warmly, Marie