Rectocele from surgery 20 years ago

Submitted by pandora on November 25, 2008 - 8:28am
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I am a homeopathic practitioner in the UK and endeavour to support women faced with, or following surgery and to provide information and natural support at the menopause. I have "Saving the Whole Woman" and on behalf of a patient of mine would like to ask if anyone has experienced benefits of this approach for a rectocele as a result of surgery 20 years ago? It looks very promising but we are concerned that too much time might have elapsed? Thank you.

louiseds

November 26, 2008 - 10:47pm

Hi Pandora

Sorry nobody has responded to your post as yet. I can't help you, I am afraid but didn't want you to feel ignored.

Obviously none of our current readers have experienced this. Periodically we do hear from women who have experienced further prolapse after earlier surgery. I can only suggest that you use the search engine to look for suitable keywords to find relevant posts, then email these women if they have enabled email contact.

It's great that you are investigating this. We will be interested in how your patient progresses. It is certainly not going to do her any harm, and she may indeed get some benefit.

Cheers

Louise

Little Me

November 27, 2008 - 10:04am

Depends on what you mean by 'surgery'. I'm a fellow Brit and had my 1st baby 25 years ago. He was brutually pulled from me with the help of forceps under general anaesthetic. Whilst I was asleep, I was butchered after being given an episotomy by a student doctor and then stitched up by another student. As a result I've had 25 years of aching pain, heaviness, and eventually massive rectoceles which now completely fill me up and protrude constantly.

I registered on this site just a few weeks ago and posted a request on how to do the 'posture', (see below) I received several helpful replies. I have continued to try to keep in posture most of the time, however, so far I have seen no improvement in my condition whatsoever!

I'm never constipated, my diet is excellent and being only 5 feet tall, I naturally have always tried to 'walk tall'. I've come to the conclusion that 20 years of sitting in different office chairs, in different offices, in different jobs, being taught by well-meaning, if mis-informed office managers, on how to sit to support your back, has done little to prevent my prolapse.

I now sit on the edge of my office chair, so I'm hoping I will eventually see some improvement.

alemama

November 27, 2008 - 6:30pm

I don't know-
I will guess that the "time factor" really does not matter at all- surgery 20 years ago or 1 year ago is still surgery and it changes the natural shape and positioning of the organs in the body.
So, is your patient scheduled for another surgery? How long has she been living with her current prolapse? Was the first surgery for prolapse?
Does she have a low rectocele or the high type (that often result from surgery)?
I am mostly just curious- I don't think I would know any better the answer to your question by having more information.

I will say that giving Wholewoman a try for a year or two certainly won't hurt anything. If there is any way she can get to a computer and join this forum that would be the best thing for her- most of us take a while to see results and it is wonderful to come here and get support and suggestions.

Tell her we say hello and that she is not alone in the slightest.

kiki

November 29, 2008 - 3:20pm

I just wanted to say give it time. A few weeks seems like very little compared to 25 years of altered anatomy. It's great to hear you say that even with severe rectocele you are never constipated--something so many of us face. That will do so much! But...give the posture time, as your body needs to relearn where to be.

Pandora, curious what remedies you use to treat prolapses. I had some great results early on with homeopathy that plateaued, but haven't ventured into new remedies for this...

Kiki

pandora

January 30, 2009 - 6:58am

Hello Kiki

So sorry to have been very slow in replying - a very hectic December for my practice followed by a bereavement. I did appreciate you getting in touch. Just to let you know that my patient's rectocele seems to have been improving significantly and we are hoping that the trend continues.

As regards homeopathic remedies - it isn't really possible to give a general remedy for this as homeopaths prescribe from a vast range of remedies depending on the individual constitution and the particular symptoms experienced. There are remedies that have an affinity for this kind of condition but again they will be tailored to the individual - if I could just post a list of remedies for everyone struggling with this condition I really would.

If you are interested in persuing this, the best thing to do is to find a qualified and registered homeopath near to where you are and to see if over time they can help you.

Sending all best wishes
pandora

pandora

January 30, 2009 - 7:33am

Hello Kiki, Alemama, Little Me and Louise

Apologies for such a slow reply - a hectic month in December in my practice followed by a bereavement.Thank you all for taking the time and care to reply, it was very much appreciated.

My patient's rectocele does seem to be improving significantly. She had an operation in the spring of last year, part of which was to aid repair and initially there appeared to be very little improvement in the rectocele itself. We used homeopathic remedies to support this condition and after 4 to 5 months there has been a change - an improvement in the vagina wall itself.

My patient had not yet embarked on the exercises and posture regimen as we were still unsure as to whether too many years had elapsed since the rectocele appeared. Although, I personally do believe that in most instances they are worth trying as the potential is so positive. However, the improvement has been such, so far, that we are continuing with the remedies and hope that the improvement will be sustained.

As with all things, I believe it is a combination of everything that we do - diet, exercise and exercises, posture, remedies....this lovely website and all of your entries show that you all know so much. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience and I shall stay in touch as it is a wonderful resource.

All best wishes
Pandora

Christine

January 30, 2009 - 9:55am

Hi Pandora,

Could you please describe to us this change in the vaginal wall? How does it manifest and how is the vaginal wall different, other than scar tissue and adhesions from the surgery becoming more pronounced over time? There is much literature to support the fact, and many women have reported to us, that after initial improvement the rectocele can be expected to return - often higher or lower than the surgical scar. Sincerely, Christine

pandora

January 30, 2009 - 10:54am

Hello Christine

Thank you for getting in touch. I am taking this very much step by step, as I hope you gathered from my response, and doing all I can to support my patient at each stage and it is of course the long term that counts.

The change that my patient has reported has occurred over the last month and has been for the vaginal wall to feel thicker and more toned. Significantly more so than before when it felt very thin, like a couple of layers of skin only. The area has also not given her problems as it used to with bowel movements, even when they have been troublesome in themselves.

The rectocele has been present for 20 years and the procedure in the spring last year included, as I understand it, attaching the top of the vagina to the sacrum to try to help, but there was no initial improvement in the vaginal wall after the surgery itself. As this kind of operation is not my field of expertise, I don't know if it would be expected to produce an improvement in the vaginal wall - do you have any thoughts or data on this?

Alongside constitutional treatment, I have been using remedies to support tissue repair and tone, and to help, where possible to reduce adhesions present from previous surgery. It is a gentle and supportive approach.

I am open to any suggestions and information that would further help and support my patient and my understanding of this condition.

Thank you for your help
Kind regards
Pandora

Christine

January 30, 2009 - 12:40pm

Hi Pandora,

Your three posts tell three different stories, so it’s kind of difficult to know exactly what was done. But I can extrapolate, given the limited array of gold-standard procedures currently being performed. It sounds like she’s had two rectocele repairs over 20 years, hysterectomy, a sacrocolpopexy, and, no doubt, a sub-urethral sling. Given her prior failed repair, it is possible they placed surgical mesh beneath the back vaginal wall. Although the failure rate of these mesh surgeries is very high, if she indeed had mesh placed and is seeing this level of improvement, she is reflecting the outcome manufacturers of these products hope for. However, it is a precarious victory because her immune system is trying to wall off the mesh and infiltrates have swelled the area in an inflammatory process. If she had no mesh placed - great! I will not argue with her success.

Sacrocolpopexy (vagina to spine) does pull the vagina into the most anatomically correct axis of any other reconstructive surgery, and therefore gives an upward lift to the back vaginal wall. However, it creates as many problems as it solves. Unlike our natural, pliable uterosacral ligaments, the material used to bridge the gap from vaginal apex to sacrum is either dead or plastic (usually plastic). This results in constant pulling of the front vaginal wall toward the back and the reason why urethral support is always included in the operation. However, the surgery virtually always results in new or recurrent cystocele.

The effects of hysterectomy/sacrocolpopexy are much more far-reaching, which you can read about in my blog post, End of the Surgical Age, http://www.wholewoman.com/forum/node/826

The post-reconstructive woman is a tragic case. No amount of vitamins, minerals, energy work, or homeopathic remedy can undo or even ease the extreme mutilation that should be, must be, exclusively reserved for cases of malignancy and trauma.

Returning women to their true pelvic organ support system is of urgent importance and not simply “worth trying”, although this is truly not possible in cases such as your client. I urge all women to work to abolish these morbid operations.

Christine

pandora

January 30, 2009 - 1:25pm

Hello Christine

Thank you for your reply - just a brief initial response to your post. I think perhaps some of my efforts have been lost in translation! I am a supporter of your work and encourage women to explore the options available. I personally regard both surgical and pharmaceutical interventions as last resorts, but there are women who need help and support who have already undergone surgery, or are considering a proceedure, or taking pharmaceutical medicines. Professionally I will still do all I can to help.

My comment about the approach you have pioneered being "worth trying" was meant to be positive, i.e. I completely agree - I suffer from the English condition of understatement, and apologise if my comments seemed anything other than supportive.

I simply wish to do all I can to support my patients wherever possible - whatever stage in their process they happen to be in. Your book and website are of tremendous value and I appreciate the opportunity to explore and develop knowledge in this area. Thank you.

Kind regards
Pandora

Christine

January 30, 2009 - 1:44pm

Thank you for your reply, Pandora. I totally understand your motives and have also worked for years to understand the needs of the post-surgery woman. But the needs of womankind come first in my mind and I try to elucidate and emphasize that whenever possible. What came across for me was that “women facing surgery” (esp. women facing This level of surgery) might rest assured that they can be helped before and after with homeopathy. It is not unlike suggesting aspirin for a critically burned patient. Also, the vagina does not have the capability of acting like a true “wall”. It is a misconception that strengthening the wall will prevent or improve cyctocele/rectocele. The walls are supposed to be soft, contoured, and yielding. The best your client can hope for is that both walls come together again in some semblance of natural anatomy and she can live well by supporting bowel movements if need be (no straining), good diet, massage, swimming, aromatherapy, etc. Heartfully, Christine

pandora

February 11, 2009 - 10:04am

Hello Christine

I hope you are well and thank you for your latest reply. I am always very straightforward in my practice and when a patient of mine is facing surgery I do my absolute best to prepare her for the almost inevitable onslaught of fear based persuasion tactics that will be unleashed in order to give the surgeon carte blanche...and we all see the consequences when they are. It astonishes me that in 2009 women are still facing this kind of surgical approach, but they are and hopefully the more of us that are out there sharing information about staying whole and the more natural ways of maintaining health then things can change.

Whilst homeopathy is the most wonderful system of medicine and approach to health, and I have seen it move mountains, I am also careful not to imply that it can "reverse" or negate the impact of this kind of surgery. I will put the potential help or support in context. Homeopaths can sometimes also offer help to women that might support them in avoiding surgery - such as helping to reduce fibroids and the symptoms they may cause, and although they usually naturally shrink after menopause, I have worked with a number of women who have been offered surgery but that wanted to keep their uterus.

I will do and recommend all I can, including your suggestions, to support my patient with the rectocele and will watch to see how it does in the long run. Thank you for your thoughts on that - they are valued greatly.

Just before signing off - to thank you for your section on Lichen Sclerosis and the hormonal link. I have a patient with this condition and I passed on this information and we have tried a hormonal balancing approach which so far has begun to improve symptoms.

In my practice I specialise in helping women at menopause - offering natural alternatives and approaches to HRT, help for women who want to come off HRT, etc. In addition to teaching students of homeopathy, and natural menopause classes for the general public, I am giving a lecture to fellow homeopaths in the South of the UK this spring and in London in the autumn and will be passing on details of your book and website because so many of the issues that arise overlap.

One other piece of information from this section on Lichen Sclerosis that I was delighted to find and to be able to pass on to my patients and colleagues is the role of the post menopausal ovaries in androgen production - it is another reason that patients can give for not wishing to have their ovaries removed "just in case" because they, according to the conventional medical wisdom, have no role after menopause.

So thank you so much for all this information and your work - I try to pass as much as I can on to the general public, patients and my colleagues because we are all women in this together.

All best wishes
Pandora