sick baby

Submitted by Christine on February 18, 2009 - 2:16pm
Body: 

I need some help from our wise mamas (all of you!) after a disturbing experience yesterday.

Dd and I spent most of yesterday in a pediatric urgent care center with my darling 2-year old granddaughter who’s been sick since last Thursday. When she awoke yesterday morning feverish, hacking, completely out of it, and screaming Ow! Idonlikeit! Idonlikeit!! dd and I decided we needed help with the situation. So we bundled her up and took her to urgent care.

Her 02 sats were low (83) and they immediately put her on oxygen. Her lungs sounded “diminished” on one side and just to look at this little crumpled child nestled motionless against her mama’s breast there was no doubt she was very ill. The doctor (pleasant young woman) did her thing and then told us the baby “will have to be admitted” to the hospital.

I at least wanted to go through the facts and have a few questions answered. I do have some experience with sick babies, as both of mine - dd one year, ds the next - contracted childhood pneumonia and both required middle-of-the-night trips to the ER.

Because there were several other toddlers in the waiting room who looked just like dgd, I first wanted to know what the doc thought it was. Were there diagnostic markers for say, RSV vs bacterial pneumonia? She gave a response that made no sense, and I had to determine that she did not know the answer to that question. She said a chest x-ray would allow her to see the pneumonia.

I asked her what would be the advantage of the baby being admitted into the hospital. She said a required chest x-ray, IV antibiotics, 02, and observation.

I told her we were not interested in a chest x-ray, IV, and my daughter was a very alert mother fully capable of watching her throughout the night. What we needed were strong oral antibiotics.

Said the doctor, “What if it’s RSV? I think she has RSV.” I said, “Well how about her inflamed ears?” “Oh, that’s probably bacterial.” “Well, will you please give an antibiotic for her ears that is also indicated for bacterial pneumonia - if it is RSV, the antibiotic will be supportive anyway.”

“Well, I can’t let her go if we can’t get her 02 levels up, so I’ve ordered a nebulizer treatment (albuterol). I also want her to have a chest x-ray.” Okay to the neb, no to the x-ray we said. The doctor left and other staff members came in and out of the room to deliver the treatment and check vital signs. By this time we were getting the hairy eyeball from all of them (dd told me the triage nurse gasped when she told her the baby had never seen a doctor.) I turned to my daughter and assured her, “They are not the medical police - you are the only one who decides the course of action here.”

They then talked us into Motrin and I could not resist because I did not have anything better to give her - even though the day before we had scoured store shelves for child herbal preparations. I actually thought she would respond to the bee propolis and chaparral I’m taking to reduce inflammation, but did not have the confidence to give them to her. The Motrin didn’t seem to make her feel any better.

Immediately after the first neb treatment her croupy cough turned into a hellatious dry, whooping kind of cough - like the medication irritated the dickens out of her lungs. Her sats came up, but not enough to satisfy the doctor and another neb treatment was ordered. Baby tolerated it as best she could. Cough got worse and worse and the doctor more and more alarmed, “You know, whooping cough has not been completely eradicated.” Having had my share of medically induced symptoms, I quietly rolled my eyes. They ordered a third breathing treatment (Advent) and we sat patiently.

“What would you give for whooping cough?” asked I.
“Zithromax would take care of it”, said she.
“Would Zithromax take care of bacterial pneumonia?”
“Yes.”
“And if it’s RSV it doesn’t matter anyway, right?”
“That’s right.”

“Okay, here’s the deal. We are not interested in admitting the baby into the hospital. We are fully capable of giving her good care at home. We just need a script for the antibiotic.”

“But she needs oxygen!”
“Well then write us a script for oxygen.”
“I can’t do that.”
“Why not?”
“Anything over a half liter (she was on a liter) is not allowed.”

“Look, where is the logic here? Her lungs are undoubtedly filled with endotoxins from the same bacteria that have gunked up her ears - is it any wonder she isn’t breathing normally? Write us a script and we will take her home, watch her like hawks, and bring her back at the first sign of worsening symptoms.”

“Alright. But you will have to sign a waiver saying you went against medical advice!”

“No problem. And thanks for working with us.”

When we went to pay we learned that most of these kids get three nebulizer treatments and many of them are admitted until the hospital is full.

Lordy! The Giant Sucking Sound was unmistakable as we were being pulled into the system!! And I can only hope dd learned a valuable lesson about standing her ground.
Babydoll is much better today.

My question is, are any of you (1) avoiding these childhood diseases and (2) getting your kids through them without antibiotics? Truly, this was a Very sick baby and I can’t imagine what it would’ve been like without them. I do not have a strong connection to natural medicines, although I believe we could’ve helped her a lot more if I did. There is also the truth that babies are easily lost to pneumonia.

Thanks for listening!

Christine

luvmiboyz

February 18, 2009 - 5:04pm

one of my best friends 18 month old son has RSV....she took him to the ER a couple nights ago and they put him on some medication(not sure what kind) and nebulizer treatments as well....she said he is sleeping a lot better now and it doesnt look like it will turn into pneumonia
She is very anti dr. and anti medicines of any kind.....her son had been sick all winter and she would not give him anything and thats why it has turned into what it has i believe
I myself will be giving my children vaccinations that protect against some of these illnesses.....not a 100% guarantee but it has worked for us so far....neither of my children have ever had anything more than an ear ache and a couple colds.
Im sure a lot of people here are against vaccinating and i was for sometime but after hearing how sick her child has been i know i am making the best choice for my family. Ill be curious to see some other answers..maybe they will help my friends child and if i am ever in this situation too.
I hope your granddaughter gets over this quickly I will be praying for her.
~Amanda

Christine

February 18, 2009 - 7:28pm

Thanks so much for responding, Amanda. It’s really not that we’re anti-doctors per se. And dd was actually given a referral to a pediatrician in town who is supposedly very health-minded - she just hadn’t gotten around to making the appt. Although I did make the comment to the doctor that I wouldn’t mind if dgd lived her whole life never having been to a medical facility - unrealistic, I know.

I guess it’s more like I wish we would acknowledge two systems of medicine - acuity and chronicity. Our system of medicine deals splendidly with many kinds of acuity and I would want to be no place other than a hospital if I had a heart attack, broken leg, or serious infection. The major problem with our system, though, is that it’s completely driven by profit. The entire protocol is driven by profit as we saw with the doctor trained to discount the fact that dgd would be much better off at home than a traumatic hospital stay. They should support what is healthy and natural as much as possible. I understand that many parents would prefer to hand their kids over to a hospital and there has to be room for them too.

Oh...I called this afternoon and dgd answered the phone with a cheery "Hi Gamma". No dearer words could I have heard! Thanks for your prayers.

mommynow

February 18, 2009 - 7:35pm

I am not as confident in modern medicine since my first daughter was in the hospital and put through all sorts of tests and torture (from the screams coming out of her)for nothing. I was the one that ended up researching and figuring out that she was sensitive to dairy and soy and had reflux. With this daughter I have used a homeopath with wonderful success. My girls respond very quickly to remedies and I can usually catch something before it gets bad because infants can take remedies too. However if there was an emergency situation I wouldn't hesitate to take them to the hospital.

I am glad she is going better.

louiseds

February 18, 2009 - 8:55pm

Hi Christine

Sorry to hear that you have all had this horrible 24 hours. Thankfully DGD seems to be on the mend and you can all breathe easy again.

What is RSV?

I have no medical background at all, other than as a rather difficult patient. I had a lot of friends who had babies and toddlers the same time as I did. The Mums always seemed to be talking about the latest medical emergency in their family, and their children often seemed to be hospitalised. I do not know whether these children had mothers who were too aware of the medical risks of illness in children, trusted and used the medical system too much, were very used to the medical environment, didn't have the confidence/energy to deal with it themselves, or just had sickly kids.

Our children all had their fair share of the contagious illnesses that they contract at playgroup, kindy and school, but none was ever hospitalised, except for DS2 who had grommets fitted to both ears at age 6. I would love to be able to say that we managed without pharmaceutical drugs, particularly appropriate antibiotics, but they were a godsend to get over the acute bacterial infection so they had the resilience to recover from there. They were all fully immunised, and I would do the same again after hearing the horrendous stories from older women about caring for children with polio, diphtheria and whooping cough during the 1940's and 1950's. I also know some adults with brain damage from measles and blind from birth as a result of rubella in the mother. However, there now seem to be so many diseases that babies and children are immunised for, and I do wonder now if so much immunisationon is a good thing, challenging their immune system so often in ways that trick it.

Thankfully, with most of the community immunised against the 3 big ones, we never see the epidemics of polio, diphtheria and whooping cough of past generations. On the other hand, our generation has never seen them so we cannot pass on the horror to future generations so they can decide for themselves on the wisdom of immunisation.

I do agree that medicine, appropriately used, can be lifesaving. However, I have suffered from overkill with asthma medication that exacerbated my respiratory difficulties. All I needed to do was to learn to breathe again at the age of 52. No more problems. The very expensive, throw-everything-at-it-when-you-don't-know-what-it-is approach can be costly and may or may not produce a positive result in the end.

Anyway, I am so glad that you were able to stand up for your rights, and have the knowledge to back it up, and avoid a hospital stay for DGD. Children just take my breath away with their ability to bounce back, with appropriate help. That's another nightmare that is now behind you, rather than in front of you.

Cheers

Louise

granolamom

February 18, 2009 - 10:01pm

nothing worse than a sick baby. glad to hear she's feeling better.

to answer your questions, we are doing our best to avoid these childhood illnesses with varying degrees of success. its not all in our hands, you know. I do my best to get the kids through them without antibiotics, also with varying degrees of success. I dont bring them in to the ped at the first sign of illness. my rule, based on not much more than what seems right in my gut, is three days. if after three days they are still getting worse, I bring 'em in. our ped, while still very medically minded, is not med-happy. If he recommends antibiotics, I take the script, fill it, and wait 12 hours. if there is ANY positive change I don't give the meds. if not, I do. because antibiotics do save lives. yes they are overprescribed, and yes, you can often find other ways of treating disease, but I don't always know of any other ways so I do what I can.

the hospital was most likely covering themselves. THEY don't know that your dd is a good mom. all they know is that if they discharge you with O2 and you're an idiot and don't use it and die, you'll sue.

I have to say, that this scenario is precisely why you need a pediatrician. so that if or when your baby does become ill with something more serious than a cold, you have an advocate to save you from protocols meant for the masses. and we know that whenever there's a protocol in place for the masses, it has to protect the least capable among us. of course, it sounds like you and your dd advocated pretty well on the baby's behalf, but its still easier and more reassuring when you have a dr backing you.

back when I had my nasty uti/kidney thing, our dr kept me out of the hospital. you know that had I checked myself in, and I WAS that sick that the thought crossed my mind, I'd have been there at least three days. possibly closer to 10. but thank G-d I had a good dr, so I got antibiotic injection rather than IV. he has a lab in his office so I went in daily for cbc and urinalysis. he knows us, and knew dh was taking days off to care for me and make sure I was drinking/voiding.
but the hospital staff wouldn't know that. they wouldn't be able to responsibly tell me its ok to stay home. what if I didn't show up for repeat cbc because I didn't take it seriously? or if I had no one to care for me at home?
while I'm usually the cynic, I can see why these protocols are in place.
now why each child needs three neb treatments, I don't know. why they didn't start her on antibiotics sooner, I don't know. I get the chest xray, even though I would have refused it too. I worked in a childrens hospital and kids really die from lung infections. quickly sometimes. and that's scary. I believe that's what motivates alot of the unecessary testing.

Christine

February 19, 2009 - 9:39am

Louise...respiratory syncytial virus - not sure when it became such a big deal, but was probably identified in the eighties or so.

alemama

February 19, 2009 - 11:02am

Christine- well obviously you have knowledge of the medical system and the meds offered given your background. We had our only hospital experience when my first was almost 2 (at the time my second was 4 months or so). I let it go too far before I took her in (stubborn mom just "knew" she would get better all on her own). By the time we got to the hospital her sats were under 80. We were immediately trucked up to the PICU. I refused to let them give her any medications while they were running tests. If it was a bacteria I wanted to know which one and same for a virus. My baby was so exhausted from trying to breathe she couldn't stay awake at all. We had never been to the doctor for a sick visit and she had never taken any medications. At one point the head peds dr. came in and told us he was not sure she would live. They wanted to intubate her, catheterize her, and heavily medicate her. I said no to all things. The ran every test they could think off- blood, X rays, swabs for RSV etc, and urine cultures and nothing came back positive. All we knew was that she could not breathe and the effort of it was killing her.
After 12 hours or so we all decided something must be done and we agreed to try racemic epi as a breathing treatment (this is nasty stuff and she experienced the serious side effect of heart damage). It was instantly effective. After 24 hours the head of peds came in again and talked with me at length about giving abx- he pointed out the the hospital was crawling with bacteria and that though she did not have a bacterial infection many are airborne and could be passed by the nursing staff- So I allowed them to give her one dose of IV antibiotics. By day 3 we were getting antsy to check out- and did so.
All we could conclude was that she had a massive allergic reaction. Earlier the day she went to a play ground that had just that day gotten a new load of sand- and when she got back from there she was wheezing.
She was of course amazing through the whole thing. I was miserable- leaving her once every 4 hours to nurse my baby in the parking lot and sleeping in shifts with him so I would continue to make milk for him.
I was also so upset at the antagonistic relationship I had with the hospital (at one point I was actually threatened that they would remove her from my care if I didn't consent to "life saving treatments"). It was a very hard experience for me and I was traumatized.
Her heart has repaired now- and so have her lungs- for almost a year after the sickness her lungs would react to any little thing and I kept her away from other kids for 6 months and didn't take her anywhere- we lived in a bubble. Gradually she got stronger and we started exposing her to the world again- and now she is amazingly fine.
4 years later I have never given her or any of her siblings antibiotics- We have all been sick and sometimes seriously (the worst was a 9 day fever of 103 with my 2nd) but I don't take them in to the doctor unless it is to confirm what I already know and I would go if I wanted traditional meds-
I now own a stethoscope and otoscope- I look and listen to them all on a weekly basis to keep my baseline understanding current.
The best thing I can recommend is to keep breastfeeding- breast milk is amazing- it is anti-viral, anti- bacterial, and a microbiotic. Research studies have confirmed that as small os 6 ounces is enough to convey maternal immunity.
I feel that peds do much fear mongering and give way too much advice about things they know nothing about (like breastfeeding and vaccines). If you were to want information about vaccines and side effects or even effectiveness you would want to talk with a endocrinologist researcher, an immunologist researcher, and a chemist researcher- there as so many factors to take into consideration when giving any medicine and vax are loaded with chemicals that disrupt the system. But your doctor only knows what the pharma rep shares with them and then of course go with the blind recs of the AAP etc. I refuse to open a can here- we are not necessarily anti vax-and I have vaxed some- but I wanted to address the "prevention" comment- in that vaccinations do not prevent your child from contracting childhood illnesses- as a child I got mumps and I had been vaxed against them- it is not a guarantee.
So I guess the short answer is if I were your daughter I would get some diagnostic tools- breastfeed- and catch sicknesses before they even start. I use GSE, teatree oil, garlic, vitamin C, probiotics, breast milk, steaming showers with essential oils, chest percussion, no sugar (immune system depresser) and other dietary changes depending on the symptoms. For ear infections I treat the ear, the sinuses, and the whole child- so it is a three pronged approach- with respiratory distress I treat the lungs, the sinuses, and the whole child. When one child gets a sickness I immediately put all the other children off sugar and on vitamin C-
We had pink eye a year ago or so and I found some homeopathic drops for that- When my second child had that 9 day fever I just supported him- bringing the fever down with baths, hand feeding him, carrying him everywhere, holding him every minute of everyday-(went and had blood work done that confirmed mono) and he finally broke the fever and was much more himself within 9 months or so. Most parents would have used a fever reducer, an antibiotic, and eventually a hospital stay (hey they need the money right)- I figured it was mono after much research and read that there is nothing to be done for it in allopathic care.
Keeping your dgd our of day care will help greatly to reduce exposure- as well as simple measures like hand washing (for the mom) and informing the child about "germs" how they work and how they get into your body- (through your nose, eyes and mouth) and to keep fingers away from your face and wash hands well before eating or nose picking or anything like that.
Also it is good to make some contacts with an herbalist or naturopathic doctor who does have the knowledge of alternative meds- and TCM.
For me- setting aside my fear and properly diagnosing my child as soon as possible is most important to me- if I decide I want abx you better believe I will go into the urgent care center knowing that is what I want and even which one I want.
We have been so healthy since our one and only emergency room visit. We did have a recent experience of ingestion of lantanna berries (fatally toxic) but got through that sitting in the parking lot of the ER waiting to see if there was going to be an emergency situation instead of going in right away-no death that day.
I am glad to hear she is better. I don't mess around with breathing trouble now-I own a nebulizer- and I use it at first sign of wheezing- you can use seasalt in there. Basically it is just a confidence thing. You have to be ready to take responsibility for your diagnosis and know when to call in the professionals.

Zelda

February 19, 2009 - 11:07am

What a story - and here you are savvy to the industry. "Hairy eyeballs" I love that - cracked me up.
I haven't much to add - I think you were spot on in all your choices in how you handled it. Not liking the "Biz" as I do I would have still gone in too, and I have always struggled with the medical police and their hairy eyeballs because I didn't immunize the way they wanted me to.

You asked if any of us alternative Mama's had anything to suggest...

Homeopathic flu remedy known as Oscillococcinum can be taken one pellet daily in a clean mouth as a prophylactic and would really help protect our little ones with all that they are exposed to. I bet you could even find a homeopath that makes a specific combo for some of the known nasties that are out there. And there are no side effects, toxicity or over-dose risk with Homeopathics making them so safe for our little ones.

I'm so glad she's better.
Love to you and yours Christine,
Zelda

Christine

February 21, 2009 - 12:16am

Thank you ever so much for all these great responses. Alemama, yours was the textbook in natural care I was hoping for and it took my breath away (probably not an appropriate colloquialism given the subject matter - lol). I will print the whole thread to give to dd who is searching to reinforce this area of parenting. I did comment to her at least a couple of times that I have no idea how non-bf mothers get their babies through these ordeals.

Side note: I ended up with the crud and it’s pretty bad - sore throat, no voice, lethargy, and the first earache I’ve had since late childhood! I bought an ear syringe, hydrogen peroxide, and some organic drops made of aloe, calendula, mullein, St. Johns wort and rosemary. Had dh administer first the H2O2 - let it bubble up and sit a minute or two then turned to drain onto a towel. Same with the drops - although I think you’re supposed to leave them in - only two or three drops. I was in alot of pain and Really didn’t think this would work, but husb came in about 30 minutes later to check on me and I was sitting up in bed writing and had forgotton about my ear - the pain was gone! I can feel it’s still affected and will re-dose tomorrow.

I think Amanda is right about low-grade infection. The baby has been (mildly) sick a lot and we’ve been sick more than we have in decades. I’ve had the feeling of water in my (same) ear for weeks - I do think I must’ve gotten water in it during a bath - but that horrible sloshing feeling every time I turn my head has been rather obnoxious and I could not shake it out. Whatever this bug is glommed onto that environment and went berserk. I will take Alemama’s advice and be more vigilant in this area - I love salt water!

Bless all you dear women!!!

xxxChristine

Christine

February 21, 2009 - 10:24am

I have had two experiences with dgd at playgrounds that made me wonder at the time and now with Alemama’s experience with her dd think it makes sense to ask the question, Is playground sand treated with chemicals?

The first time she got sick - the whole respiratory thing (runny nose, cough, etc.) - over the course of the hour or so we were on the playground. I mean, the child was fine when we arrived and sick when we got home. I did comment to dd how strange it was. The second time we were at a park playground and when we left we walked by swings and I sat down with her on my lap. She was just beginning to talk at that time and she leaned back against me and said, “I’m tired” and got very droopy. It was odd because she had never expressed that to my knowledge, it wasn’t her usual nap time, and she just checked out. She had a long-term runny nose afterward.

Good grief...could they be spraying some “cide” or something to keep dogs away??

a6a25725

February 21, 2009 - 11:29am

I googled the above just to see what the results could be....quite enlightening and
frightening. Some of these chemicals can cause a reaction in animals as well as people and of course children have a lower resistance to a lot of the chemicals and pesticides

It might pay to ask your local government what kind of chemicals or pesticides are used on children's play areas.

Some local governments are passing legislation or bylaws to ban the use of spraying harmful substances anywhere.

Hopefully it will become the law everywhere.

Just a thought in passing.

Regards to all.

Flora

Christine

February 21, 2009 - 4:39pm

Thank you so much for telling us about the links, Flora! This is an urgent wake up call to parents who thought playgrounds were germy, but generally okay. sigh...

kiki

February 22, 2009 - 12:45pm

i keep wanting to reply re your sick baby but just haven't had time...
but i'll quickly say re sand--apparently part of the issue is that playground sand is much finer than beach sand, and thus gets into the lungs--and is toxic as well. California puts health warnings on teh sand:

What California says about crystalline silica saying it's carcinogenic.

so, she may have sensitive lungs to that (who wouldn't!!!)

sorry i didn't reply about the whole illness thing but she's been in my thoughts hoping she's mending well. and so much wisdom here already!!!

stella

February 25, 2009 - 8:16am

Hi Christine and everybody!
I have stayed away from here the last few months(denial! ha ha) but just decided today to pop on and saw Christine's post. It sounds like things are under control now? I didn't have much time but quickly read through the posts in response so sorry if I missed something. Did you have a final diagnosis? I got my kids through pertussis, pneumonia, and all kind of things WITHOUT antibiotics. The most effective treatments for my children have been anthroposophical remedies. (A derivation of homeopathy). It sounds like you got lots of feedback here but if you need more suggestions, let me know.
My purpose for coming back was to share my experimental exercise regiment of the last several months. Being an avid outdoor sport enthusiast, I have been trying to figure out what works regarding the prolapse and what aggravates it. I suppose it varies for different women, but I feel that I have learned quite a bit now. I would be happy to share in more detail if anyone is interested but for now just briefly, I have found that the best activity that seems to actually help the prolapse is cross country skiing. I unfortunately discovered that biking was aggravating it. If any of you other die hards would like more details, let me know and I will write.
Blessings to you all!
Stella
and Christine, I am glad your little sweetie is better-I can still recall her cute little face from last summer!