My process so far in dealing with my prolapse situation

Hi Aura

It sounds like you are well on the way to healing yourself. If you have prolapse now, you will always have prolapse. How you manage it now will determine your quality of life, and to a degree, how much worse it may get (or not). Christine has been doing this work for about ten years. The rest of us have been doing it for less than that, I for over four years, during which I have experienced the last of my reproductive years. I must be near the end, as I just turned 56! None of us knows what will happen with our prolapses into old age, with the help of Wholewoman techniques, though we have quite a few postmenopause Members who reassure me. Without WW techniques it appears a not very pretty scenario, though prolapse will not kill any of us.

Pelvic organ prolapse is simply an inadvertant repositioning of the bladder, uterus and rectum that results from damaged fascial supports in the pelvic area. There is nothing to heal in the organs themselves, but how we use our bodies to enable the remaining, and compromised fascial structure to support these organs that are at the bottom of the heap in bipedal life, will determine the healing we will experience.

Healing also happens at a mental level and a spiritual level, as you are no doubt aware.

The mental bit is assimilating all the WW resources and confronting all the things we read and hear elsewhere, telling us that we deserve sympathy; that we will become incontinent invalids; that we are getting old and what do we expect(?); that we need a little op to get us back to brand new; that POP is TMI; that gyno knows best *all* the time; and all the wives' tales (which they are!) about giving up an active life.

The spiritual bit is learning about the wonder of the female body, accepting that POP is a result of Western lifestyle, life's experiences, how we were taught to eat and use our bodies, the genetic legacy left us by our parents, and our inbuilt resilience. It is about forgiving our own and our parents' mistakes in our upbringing; forgiving ourselves for being born into a consumer lifestyle; forgiving ourselves for not looking after our bodies well in the past; forgiving obstetric 'mistakes'; building on little successes, losing the fear that is based on innocent ignorance, and learning to trust our bodies again. It is also about adapting our lifestyles to accommodate bodily wear and tear, and accepting our mortality. It is not about self-actualising into Superwoman.

The aim of healing for me is to lessen my POP symptoms, and send them packing if I can, and to lead my life uncompromised by my POPS, well into old age.

My Mum is 96 and her Mum was 104 when she died, so this is a longterm investment for me. I think I am doing pretty well so far, and reading the experiences of other Members is instrumental to continuing my progress. I would rate my degree of limitation at about 10%, and some of that 10% is probably unrealistic anyway, particularly for an older woman. (It really doesn't bother me not being able to knock over and turn a vigorous 80kg ewe onto her back, or to lift a 20kg bag of animal feed vertically onto a trailer. There are other ways of accomplishing most tasks, that only the inherently weak-minded female could come up with. ;-) Even men resort to mechanical aids if they have half a brain.

We are all building Wholewomanworld together, to benefit ourselves, each other and future generations of women.

Yes, you are scared at the moment, but that will pass once you have a fuller understanding of how your body works and implement the changes. Hopefully you will be able to live without the pessary eventually, or at least know when to use it and when to leave it out.

Hopefully you can resolve the candida, which may be linked to the sponge but may be other things as well. Candida is a thing many women suffer, and Wholewomen are no exception (Search it and see). I have it very rarely these days. I think it is exacerbated by a sagging pelvic floor which puts the inner parts of the vulva and lower vagina into contact with knickers, which may have traces of faecal matter containing candida on them. I think it also related to stress and fear.

Once you get into Wholewoman posture on a 24/7 basis (which may take a while) the whole pelvic floor lifts all by itself, so this cross-contamination is reduced considerably.

Hope all this encourages you.

Cheers

Louise

Louise,
Thank you for a well written post. I have just joined the forum and am glad to have found Whole Woman. I was just booked for an abdominal surgery, including mesh support, for pelvic prolapse. I do not feel right about this operation and started looking on the web for alternatives. The surgery sounds too invasive, too many risks, and not enough benefits (particularly, no promises). I had ordered the first book "Saving the Whole Woman" on Amazon before I found this site. It sounds like the second book is superior, but as I am from Canada, that book would cost me over $100 - and like I mentioned, I just ordered the first book. Anyways, I will read all the info on this site - it sounds very promising. It's funny that my doctor never mentioned any alternatives, just a push towards surgery.
Kitty

Your reply certainly encouraged me Loise. I'm a newbie to this site. Have posted a couple of times, but in the wrong forums I suspect!

I've had a rectal prolapse for years which never really bothered me. I was training to be a yoga teacher (I'm 55) but had to give up due to injury and suddenly something is going on. Today another 'thing' presented itself at the opening of my vagina. Bladder I suspect.

Have been going though the health system with depressing/annoying/frustrating results. All that you say, Louise, makes perfect sense. I know that the 'answer', acceptance, lies with me and I'm working towards that. I want to live as the women here strive to, to the very best of my ability. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Sally

Hi Sally

There is more to it than acceptance though. You can get real freedom from your symptoms once you learn a new way to use your body. And you will be able to continue an active lifestyle, albeit with a few workarounds. We cannot do everything in this world. Life is too short. Leaving out the things that are 'men's jobs', and using mechanical aids for heavy lifting etc (or, perish the thought, getting some help) and using your body and exercising in ways that reinforce, rather than undermine female structural integrity will enable you to do almost anything reasonable. Some women can get away with abusing this, but once you have POPs you really do have to respect your body's needs.

Hopefully you will be able to get back to your yoga. Have you read Christine's blog entry called "Why we need a new yoga for women". You can find it by scrolling down the lefthand frame, right at the bottom on my screen.

Cheers

Louise

Wow, fascinating blog post. My yoga is very gentle at the moment because I'm afraid things are going to fall on the floor! Seriously though, bending forward from the waist is strangle uncomfortable for my pelvis organs. I don't know why. I still haven't had a proper diagnosis but I've decided how I feel is more important than what it's called. I'm still kinda at the stage of obsessing about it, looking at it in the mirror every two minutes and poking about, none of which is helpful I'm sure. Trying just to let it be whatever it is.

Sally

Sally,
I am fairly new to this prolapse problem too, about 3 months now since I discovered the bulge. Mine is a cystocele, bladder bulge. I have been doing the WW posture and some of the exercises from the book and DVD. I am sure it hasn't gotten worse, but I am not seeing much change yet either. I know it takes more time, I am trying to be patient, but this uncomfortable bulge and irritation is driving me nuts! What is maca root? Did you even notice a slight improvement when taking it? I am willing to try about anything. I tried Vitamin C and tissue salts with no change. I never have had much luck with natural products working for me. I also tried the sea sponges, that was waste of money for me. So irritating I couldn't stand it. A large tampax will help for awhile, but after a few hours will work down and start to pinch. I look in the mirror way too much too. Maybe if I would stop looking I could relax alittle more. Connie

I think it is helpful to remember that adopting the WW way is like any other body sculpting action. It takes time. When one starts weight training, it may take 6 to 8 weeks before one notices even the remotest increase in strength, but then it builds and builds. A month of lifting weights will not get someone ready to compete as a body builder, nor can a month of yoga classes allow someone to achieve the advanced version of the postures. Funny how most of us expect this to work faster (probably because we are in some physical or mental discomfort that we just want solved). WW methods are sculpting the body, and it's going to take a while . . . but small benefits build into larger ones as the commitment continues. That's how I see it, at least. I've often seen the advice to try this for a year before deciding if it works. Think if you do dedicated weight training for a year and how different your muscles WILL end up. I think it is the same with this . . . .

Hi Connie

I know exactly how you are feeling and how distressing it is. This is going to sound all very nambly pamby and new-agey but I believe for my own sanity I must come to terms with it as it is. It's taken me a while to come to this conclusion and I still shoot off down avenues of 'I can't stand this'. I try to bring myself back to be in the moment and not let it make me blind. That's what I was thinking yesterday was I walked by the sea on a beautiful day. I'm still surrounded by all this beauty and love and if I focus on that rather than my faulty bits I can have mental relief for seconds at a time....eventually it becomes minutes. Staying in the moment is the answer for me and practicing focusing my concentration on other things, from my breathing to the soles of my feet to my knitting. Anything will do. It takes away the sense of helplessness. Okay, we can't fix (but can improve) our bodies but we can greatly improve out state of mind (I believe) by just practicing this concentration thing. Good luck, you're not alone. Sally

Hi Sally

I just picked up a couple of points from your post.
"bending forwards from the waist is strangle (sic) uncomfortable for my pelvic organs". Yes, it will be, if you are bending from the waist, because you will have to slouch over and flatten your lumbar curve to do it. Down go the organs. Bend from the hip joints with your lower belly relaxed, and you will find that your organs will have enough room so they don't go south. They just go forwards over the pubic bone, instead of over the vagina.

Leaving your lower belly relaxed makes a little pozzy for your pelvic organs, out front. Always keep your lower belly relaxed whether sitting, standing, walking, lifting etc so your organs have no easy way of sliding back and down the plughole.

"I'm still kinda obsessing about it...". Rule number one is only have a look once a week, then get on with your life the rest of the week. Also, inspection from the front is bound to produce a visible bulge. Bend over with your butt towards the mirror, and look between your legs. Do it by bending from the *waist*, then by bending from the *hips*. Notice the change in the sensations.

Cheers

Louise

Can I ask a question about sex please? I would like to stay sexually active for as long as possible/appropriate. I also read that if you are able to reach climax is does help with the general health of your organs. But sometimes I do feel that it makes my discomfort worse afterwards. If anyone would like to share or offer advice that would be great. Thanks. Sally

Hi Sally

Aha! My favourite topic. Yes, I know what you mean about that. When you say "I feel that it makes my discomfort worse", does "it" mean sex or orgasm? I can give an opinion either way, for what it's worth.

I think one's POPs can feel more uncomfortable after sex for several reasons.

Firstly, sexual arousal makes all the genital tissues engorge. They literally get bigger, so if your POPs are a bit low beforehand, they may feel low and bigger afterwards, particularly if you have had little penetrative sex, which can push your organs back up again. Penetrative sex is great for repositioning the uterus, so sometimes POPs feel better afterwards. You never knew sex was good physical therapy, did you? Doctors certainly don't suggest it!

Secondly, the positions you use during sex can affect your POPs. You probably know what I am going to say next. Yes, use your WW posture principles during sex too! eg On top, astride your partner, kneeling, is good. On your back with your legs on his shoulders can be bad, because your lumbar curve disappears and your belly is compressed. Missionary position can be really good, particularly with a little pillow or rolled towel in your lumbar curve and your arms over your head, holding the bedhead. (So that's what the bedhead is for?). Your partner will notice the difference if your lumbar curve is maintained and arms are up, because it stretches all the pelvic floor muscles lengthwise and sideways for better contact (see Saving the Whole Woman edition 2). Use your imagination to subtley change how you do it and you may find a more satisfying experience for both of you.

Thirdly, there is a natural bearing down for many women just before female orgasm, just like second stage of labour, when the lumbar curve straightens and allows the organs (or baby to descend, and your body just pushes outwards quite spontaneously. I guess it is looking for more clitoral or G spot stimulation, or something. If this happens to you, repositioning your organs before getting vertical again might help. Try hands and knees and pelvic tilts. Rest in WW posture afterwards, not slouching on pillows. Just lie flat, first aid recovery postion is good, cos your belly flops forwards and makes room for your organs again.

If you don't climax and your partner does, and does his dozing off trick, it can leave you aroused with nowhere to go. This would be a little like a man getting an erection and not being able to have sex, cos he is fantasising in an elevator at work, or on a building site, or somewhere else inconvenient. Men don't like it. Neither do women. It is very unsatisfactory, for want of a better word. You might mean this sort of uncomfortable? The answer is more foreplay so you don't get left behind, and some consideration by your partner, who may not realise where he has left you. Talk about it with him.

Rough sex can leave your vagina and vulva sore and irritated. There will be inflammation too.

The presence of candida or any other organism can cause a more persistent form of discomfort afterwards.

These are a few of the factors that may be at work. There are probably others. Some of the other Members may chime in too.

Cheers

Louise

Oh thanks Louise. That was the best laugh I've had all day. I'm not being rude, it was very useful and sensible advice but worry not, there is no danger of my legs getting anywhere near his shouders!
More advice please. Some days my pop is quite livable with, other days it's really nasty and nippy. Is that just the nature of the beast? Also I can't bare knickers we call them in the UK, panties with you I guess but some of my summer cothes are getting marked because I put vaseline on my vag to help reduce the friction of walking, etc.
All this grusomeness and I still have the inclination to think about sex. Man, I'm impressed!
Sally

Hi Sally

Hey, I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. You can't take sex too seriously, can you?

Yeah, I know what you mean about knickers. My solution is to make short waist length petticoats that come down just below mid-thigh at the back and just below crotch level at the front. I make two semi-circles of tricot, one for the front and one for the back, and overlap them by about 100mm at the sides, so it is a slim fit, but not tight. Trim the bottom edges with lace before assembling. Then sew a casing around the top and insert soft elastic.

The tricot does not stick to outer clothing, and doesn't ride up or migrate around your body. The extra length at the back is sufficient to cover the back of your skirt when you sit, so outer clothing does not get stained. The shorter front is for modesty with plenty of air flow, and the two separate, overlapped pieces ensure that there is plenty of side ventilation in summer, and it expands so it doesn't compress your belly or ride up when you sit. Also, both front and back pieces sit nicely. You could add a narrow lining of voile, lawn or single knit jersey to the back panel if you find that the tricot sticks to your vulva.

Another solution that I am still perfecting is a g-string made from single thickness voile or fine silk. It is a long rectangle of fabric with ribbon ties on each corner. My current prototype is 300mm wide at the back, a little narrower at the front. It is very light to wear and has plenty of fullness over the vulva so it doesn't rub, and protects outer clothing. If you get the length of the rectangle right for your body shape and the ribbons the right length, it doesn't irritate the anus and it doesn't move around.

Yes, you will find that your POPs behave differently on different days. Hopefully, you will eventually find that it doesn't bother you at all, for most of the time. Only action on your part, detective work on what behaviour/factors cause problems with POP, time, and a bit of luck, will tell that.

Glad you can still be spunky enough to think about sex. I think about my whole body, vulva and vagina quite a bit over the last few years. IMHO, thinking about sex is just another aspect of that. Just cause you have POP doesn't turn you into a eunuch. Actually most men wouldn't really know you had POP. Their minds are on other things. ;-)

Enjoy!

Cheers

Louise

Louise, you are a miracle! So glad to have found this group. Makes me feel totally empowered in the battle of the POP. But please, what is tricot?

Tried out some of your advice about initmacy with excellent results, thank you. The fear thing extends to my partner too so as I learn more, I am able to reassure him. He did like the concept that he might be doing a good job repositioning my organs! Have sent for Christine's video and book. Look out POP, this is game on!

Sally

Good secrets are meant to be shared. Otherwise, what is the point of having them?

Tricot is the fabric that slips, petticoats, and other lingerie is made of. I think it is nylon, but maybe polyester (hence the suggestion of a cotton panel.)? I would have to check a label. It is a firm knit that looks like it is knitted in one direction on one side, and knitted at 90 degrees on the other side. It stretches on both diagonals, but not vertically or horizontally. It is soft, slippery and drapes beautifully. Pity you can't get cotton tricot. I hate synthetics but it is so perfect for the job. Because it is synthetic I would not personally use it for knickers.

Cheers

Louise

Hi Ladies

Your experience would once again be most appreciated. I have a new visitor presenting itself in the opening to my vag today. From the previous 'chicken's neck' thread I think it might be my uterus? Anyway, if I stand up and examine myself, at the top of my vag I can feel a sort of ledge or shelf (pubic bone?) and the whatever it is has sort of fallen off this shelf and is hanging down (slightly) I can see it presenting between my urethra and my rectocele. I can push it back up and it falls down again. Not painful.

Not as tearful or as panicky as I was before I found you all but I must admit my heart has sunk a bit. I've read some amazing stories here and I only hope I can be as strong and determined. Many thanks. Sally

I feel your pain, tinyshinythings. soon after I got here with a cystocele, I noticed a small rectocele appearing too. to say it was disheartening doesn't even begin to describe how I felt. I'm pretty sure that I technically have a uterine prolapse too, but I refused to believe it (denial, anyone?). a couple years later and my cervix is no longer pointing forward and to the left, but to the center-back. so to me, that's a better position. I think if you take the long view, based on the experiences of those who've been tracking their progress here for a while, you'll see its very much a two steps forward, one step back deal. and while I have nothing scientific to back this up, I think that sometimes things fall apart a bit before you are able to put them in order. like dumping out the bookshelves before alphabetizing the volumes, rather than swapping book by book. personally, I'd rather do it the book-by-book way, but nobody asked me how I'd like my prolapse to heal. so as long as over time, I can see that it IS healing, I'll take what I can get.
and then there's always the concept of 'nature's pessary', that if all three prolapse a bit, they actually stabilize one another so nothing can actually get out. maybe that's why so many of us do develop prolapses of all three, to varying degrees. the truth is, that if you have no symptoms and can live your life as you like (albeit with a prolapse-friendly lifestyle), what difference does it really make if your uterus is low? just some food for thought...

I'm happy to hear you're feeling less tearful and panicky. that's a good sign. grief is a process and cannot be rushed along. you'll get to the other side. it takes time. we're here rootin' for ya.

Just back from the doc. Laxity in my anterior wall but no additional prolpase. Just need to get stuck into the exercises. Yeah! Sally

well, that's certainly good news!

Tinyshinythings, I have the same front wall prolapse. It comes down with my urethra. It is exactly how you describe, like something has fallen off the shelf. I can push it back up, and it falls immediately back down. I cannot feel my cervix, and I'm not sure whether I have a mild rectocele. My back wall feels a bit soft, but does not move with bearing down. I also have hemmoroids which developed during pregnancy which sometimes swell. Did your doctor think the fron wall laxity would improve with your cystocele?

Sorry davemayamom, not entirely understanding the question? It's only a rectocele I have (see, I boasting now!). Doc was very dismissive. That's good I guess? Sort of said (I'm reading between the lines here) What do you expect me to do about it? Get out of here and get on with your life. Still I guess that's what we want. No medical intervention. Just can't wait for Christine's DVD to arrive to get started. In the mean time she recommended 100 kegels a day. That and my VERY gentle yoga will have to do for now...and a bit of swimming.

She was keener for me to start HRT but I wasn't. I seem to be sensitive to so many prodcuts I'm sure that would be another nightmare journey. Good to know it's always an alternative if things don't work out, but they will (think positive). Not so much a door, the HRT (I've been reading Louise's marvellous Two Doors post), more a kind of cat flap.

Good to have alternatives to think about on your down days. I was whistling and singing today though. My discomfort was no different and it just made me realise how much of managing prolapse is down to state of mind. Interesting. Sally

Hi Tinyshinythings

That sounds like a lot of kegels to me. More is not necessarily better. You could end up with very tired p/f muscles with that number every day. Then they will just sag, and say, "Too hard!"

Kegels will help you some with bladder incontinence, and will help you to become more aware of your pelvic area and its sensations. It is always better to have strong pelvic floor muscles than weak ones, so you can do (sex) tricks with them, but there is not any research at all proving that Kegels will fix prolapse.

The pelvic floor muscles are not built like arm and leg muscles. They are sinewy and quite thin, and not designed for bearing loads. You can't change the type of muscle they are made from. They are fine for stabilising from the rear, which is what they do very well. They are able to withstand, and rebound some intraabdominal forces, and in that respect act just like the abdominal muscles, and perhaps the diaphragm. But they are further protected from intraabdominal forces because they are kind of around the corner from all that (the vagina lies at 90 degrees to the axis of the abdominal cavity). They are all boundaries of the same abdominal/pelvic cavity, kind of like the walls of a balloon.

Wholewoman posture stretches the p/f muscles tauter, because of the way the two halves of thel pelvis rotate slightly around the sacroiliac joints, on each side of the sacrum, and making the pelvic diaphragm larger. A larger pelvic dialphragm sounds counter intuitive, but try thinking about it as the same sized drum skin stretched over a larger drum in Wholewoman posture. This is all described much more neatly by Christine in Saving the Whole Woman edition two, with great illustrations.

Christine, could you please confirm that I have the previous two paragraphs correct?

To see Christine's Blog entry, "Kegels the Right Way", scroll down the left frame.

Cheers

Louise

Right on, Louise. Tiny, I think you need to see for yourself the uselessness of kegels. We have many self-reported “Herculean” pelvic floors here, yet few women singing the praises of kegels as good for their prolapse. It seems like squeezing the hole at the bottom as tightly shut as you possibly can *should* work to keep things from falling out, until you understand that there is no bottom and no hole. There is only an invagination at the back of the body that is slowly turned inside out - like the finger of a glove - by the forces of intraabdominal pressure. The object of the game of natural pelvic organ support is to keep the organs toward the front of the body so that internal pressures (created every time we take a breath) pin them into position instead of blowing them toward the back. This can only be accomplished through posture.

Thank you ladies both. I appreciate your concern for me. I did read Christine's blog post about kegals the right way(DVD sent for) but I have a couple of problems. I have a strained muscle in my buttock which makes sitting crossed legged v. difficult and is greatly aggravated by forward bending. I've been doing a 'sort of' version, a kind of prana mudra vinyasa if that means anything, flowing with the breath, from standing, bringing my arms up to the sides to meet overhead, the widening my arms at the elbows as I bring my hands down through my centre. I'm doing this in conjunction with a slow kegal. I guess my problem is I don't know the difference betweed kegalling and contracting my pevic diaphram. The doc did offer me a physio but said it was pretty invasive. Seemingly they insert their hand into your vag to check what you're squeezing! Think I'll pass on that one but your long distance help is much appreciated.
Sally

When I 'kegal' or whatever I'm doing, I can feel it between my hips bones and round my back....if that helps identify if I'm on the right track? Thanks
Sally

sally, I'm not 100% sure, but that doesn't sound right to me. I've never felt a kegel in my back. not really between my hip bones either. I can feel the contraction at my perineum.
not that I recommend, but just for the sake of satisfying curiousity, if you stop and start your urine flow, you're doing a kegel.

Thank you granolamom.

Just back from gynae who was quite good this time. Woman - alway better - who poked about long enough to find where it was actually hurting. Says not my prolapse. Yes, do have small enterocele as well as rectocele but she says I just look like someone who has had two kids. Shouldn't be enough to cause me discomfort. She is it's oestrogen deficiency causing vaginal atrophy. Last lot of oestrogen ortho-gynest made me hugely uncomfortable so am going to try somethng else. They all carry pretty scray warnings though. Anyway, I'm going to give it a try.

Sally