Mae's New Grandbaby!

congratulations on the beautiful new grandbaby, mae!
I hope your dd is healing from the c/s and that the bf starts to work itself out.
and yes, I do believe that by stripping her membranes, your dd's doctor set all this in motion. unnecessarily so. now, no one can say that had she not had her membranes stripped things would have ended differently, but based on what I know, we can say that there was no good reason to sabotage natural childbirth by not allowing labor to begin on its own.
but many women have less than satisfying first birth experiences and manage to grow from it. your dd will likely mourn the loss of her ideal birth and then take something positive from the experience she did have.

by the way, how's dh feeling?

Oh Mae, we have been wondering about the silence. Congratulations to all of you. Sorry to hear that it all got so complicated, but at least you have a healthy daughter and grandson. Who knows how it would have been different had she not been in a hospital? "What if?" is a part of debriefing after all traumatic experiences. Next time it will be different, and I am sure better, though I guess even talking about that is not even on the agenda!

I had so wished for a natural and uncomplicated first birth, which turned into maximum management with me virtually watching from the sidelines, but the second and third births were completely natural and unassisted, and they were my payback for the first. Justice was done in the end. Yesss!!

Of course DD's milk will come in! Initiation of lactation is as much a part of the birth process as expulsion of the baby, and is controlled hormonally by it. It is nothing to do with staring at your boobs and willing them to produce! Nor can you stop milk production starting except with very drastic measures. It will be fine. DD (or you) needs to get in touch with a breastfeeding support group or phone a lactation consultant if she has any doubts, but don't plant doubts. She has been through enough doubt and negativity already.

And DH?

Cheers

Louise

Congratulations on your beautiful grandson, Mae!

I am so sorry another mom and baby had to suffer the routine cascade of obstetric intervention, but perhaps there will be at least two more advocates (you and she) for changing the way birth is managed in the United States. Some of the best work in this area has been conducted and published by Michel Odent, MD. Check out www.birthworks.org.

I feel remiss in that we didn’t talk more about this and also that the ww website is lacking in adequate information on natural childbirth. You have received good suggestions from Gmom and Louise, and I will only add a prayer for circles of love drawn round your precious daughter and grandbaby.

Glad your dh is on the mend!

Christine

Congrats, Mae! :)
Liv

many congratulations to you all. so good to hear that daughter and grandson are both doing well, especially after such a traumatic and exhausting experience.

sounds like you've all been through the wringer with this. I think Louise is right that 'what if's' are a natural stage in debriefing from any trauma (I'm sure all the women on this site have been through them in relation to their prolapses; I know I still struggle to break out of that rut now) But on the other hand but one never knows whether things would have been better if one had taken a different path; perhaps it would have been even worse.

A number of good friends of mine had similar first birth experiences to your daughter, ending in emergency c-section, and went on to have one or more VBACs. And those who were distressed at not 'managing' to do it naturally first time round invariably came to terms with their disappointment very quickly. Getting a baby into the world - by any route - is a massive achievement and all mums deserve medals in my book (grandmas too, for that matter;-)! I'm sure your daughter will soon come to terms with it too, and there's every likelihood that she'll be able to have a natural birth next time. Though I bet she doesn't want to think about next time right now...!

Wishing you all lots of love and a fast physical and emotional recovery for your daughter
Mumtogirls London

I have tried to respond to this a few times and can't seem to focus on the positive. I am so sad. Another sister has been hurt and so I hurt. Of course the surgery was unnecessary- but what could your sweet little gs do? He was rushed, subjected to medicine that has been scientifically proven to cause decelerations in fetal heart rate, and his mom was under stress.
I am very glad to hear he is out and healthy and hope sincerely that your dd can return to health quickly. Mae, congratulations on your sweet new dgs.
If you want some more information on circumcision check out "CUT" you can access a free excerpt on www.youtube.com.
I suggest your daughter contact the La Leche League in addition to her lactation consultant. They do home visits and the women you meet at LLL meetings turn into your friends for life. I have a contact person if you need one (Recent transplant from S. Fl to Gainesville).
If your dgs is happy and content it is most likely your dd's milk is in- watch the baby not the amount of milk you can express.

Hey on a related note.. if you guys are interested in a movement to make childbirth more mother friendly check out this link: click me I am part of a movement! There is a link on our page to BOLD national-
and if you feel inspired to donate to us- we have paypal. All the money we raise goes to ICAN- International Cesarean Awareness Network and the Florida School of Traditional Midwifery.
Yesterday we did a performance for high school students and the response was amazing.

This is just excellent, Alemama! We will certainly put up a link to your site. I would love to be at your fair one of these years as well. Great work - congratulations! Christine

Holy cow! we would be honored to have you. Karen Brody- the playwright, is very strict about where the money goes- we are only allowed to use 25% of dollars raised to pay for related costs- Last year we had heavy hitter Jennie Joseph come and participate in the talkback session- anyway we have big plans for next year- we just have to raise enough $$$ to afford to bring people into town...this is only our second year....

and if you go to the "news" link there is a picture of me (last on the right) holding our newest little guy-(I used my sister's scarf as a makeshift sling) and fyi everyone else has on high heals- I took mine off so the picture would be more balanced....

If anyone is curious- click on the BEBOLD link and then from there you can find a short (10 min) informational video about the play and the movement.

And Mae- ICAN also reaches out to help with C-section recovery- I know here in town they have a wonderful Postpartum basket with tons of cool stuff in it.

I know I said watch the baby not the milk- but what I mean is- watch the baby's diapers- or my preference is to take them off totally so you know when and how much your baby is pooping and peeing.
Also you can weigh the baby before a feeding and then after- you need a nice sensitive scale- but many women find they can not pump nearly as much milk as the baby can get- you can even pump one side while the baby nurses the other side- then do the weighing thing and you will be able to see exactly what I am talking about.
There are many things to do to increase supply- herbal stuff etc... but I encourage her to put the baby to the breast every 2-3 hours.
thinking of you dd and hoping the milk is flowing now....

what a great movement. I don't know how you find the time to get so involved, you're truly an inspiration.

and I had no idea that ICAN reaches out to help with c/s recovery. good to know.

I, too, am so sorry to hear about the difficulties with your daughter's birth, Mae, and the subsequent injury to your grandson. These are very difficult at a sensitive time. Very late, but wanted to say, I had a very difficult first birth experience although it was vaginal, plus a hemmorage, and my milk didn't come in, either. They pushed supplementation --- to make a long story short, I used the Supplemental Nursing System for 6 weeks to get my milk to come in, and then dd nursed for, well, I'm not sure I can say for how long, although she's not embarrassed at 10 (yet) to tell some people how long it was (yes, she remembers). Your dd's milk will most likely come in, but this may give it a boost. I wouldn't have nursed this child without it -- meaning, I just didn't have enough milk due to many factors that are not present in your case. It took time to heal, Mae, but finally I was able to accept . . . took time though. Went on to have two home births with absolutely no complications or tearing.

Hold and love that baby and I echo Alemama's suggestion re: La Leche League.

Marie

Hi Mae
so pleased to hear the milk's in. totally echo what Alemama and others said about the amount pumped not being a good indicator of the amount of milk the baby's drinking direct from the source - no pump is as effective at extracting milk as a baby's mouth.

Re: day and night, my only advice would be that it's really very early for him to be starting to know the difference. In my experience, the first 2-3 weeks (sometimes longer) there's no meaningful pattern or cycle at all. the baby will be awake (fairly short periods usually) when he's wakeful, and asleep when he's tired, and in my experience there's very little you can do to keep a really tiny baby awake when he's sleepy. Once he's a little bit bigger, it gets easier to keep him stimulated just that bit longer so that he's awake a little more during the day (avoiding doing this at night of course) to help him 'learn' the difference. But from what I've seen in my own girls and my friends' babies, the day and night difference thing (the baby management books call it diurnal clock, I think) tends to happen naturally when they're a few weeks old.

And of course the other thing that you'll know as a mum yourself, and I know now as a second-time-round-er, is that whatever stage they're at now, no matter how intractable and endless it seems, it'll all change again a few days later!

Wishing you all a bit of sleep as soon as poss!

Mumtogirls London

I like to think of newborn sleep in terms of survival. A baby that goes to sleep and stays asleep will die. Plain and simple. You want a baby who is frequently awake at night for a few months- otherwise you have to worry. It is amazing that our babies are born with such strong survival techniques. Most mammals are born able to walk within the day. I think of humans as more like marsupials. Our babies come out not quite cooked. They need to be on our bodies and near the breast 24/7 just a they were for the last 9 moths. One thing that is so amazing about us as moms is that we quickly become so exhausted we can fall asleep sitting up in bed holding a wide awake baby (who will be content to just be there awake while we sleep). The problem comes in when we refuse to respect this biology and try to adapt the natural instincts of the baby to the adult. As mothers we start adapting to our babies during pregnancy and we never stop. I encourage your dd to shift her mind set about sleep now. Don't let experts or outsiders tell her there is something wrong with the baby- this idea of night and day mixed up is just silly- your dgs just has a strong instinct for survival! Your dgs and dd should be encouraged to camp out in bed for a few weeks. Sleep when it comes and leave the rest for later- I promise later is going to come :)

best news all day, mae!
your dd must be so happy/relieved, and dgs's probably getting drunk on his mama's milk.
the night/day mixup thing is not something I can help you with. all my kids were like that for much longer than they *should* have been.
it was useless to try to fight it, made for one cranky baby and one frustrated mama. remind mama to sleep while baby sleeps and since there's a wonderful grandma around, make sure mama gets good food and time for a shower every day.
and this too, shall pass....

Oh Granolamom and Alemama

You have no idea how wonderful it is to here your sane voices echoing very commonsense approaches to Moms and new babies. You are absolutely right! I remember people saying to me back in the 80's that my babies were manipulating me because I would feed them whenever I thought they wanted the breast. Manipulation and newborns somehow don't go in the same sentence for me. I think these words came from the mouths of control freaks who had no respect for a baby's instinctive survival techniques.

When I was doing breastfeeding counselling we were taught that a baby that feeds less than four hourly, ie 6 feeds in 24 hours, including night feeds, is unlikely to develop and maintain its mother's milk supply in the early days. The idea that a baby is 'good' if it goes a full 4 hours between feeds is blatantly false. I think that statement was probably planted in the minds of child health sisters by Mr Nestle for the express purpose of sabotaging mothers' ability to breastfeed their babies and generate sales for them!!

I really think my babies would have died if I wasn't breastfeeding them. Sterilising bottles, calculating concentrations and preparing formula was way beyond my capabilities as a new Mom. I couldn't really see the point in it when there was all this perfect food on tap in a place which was safe and warm, and I could have all these lovely little lie-downs about 12 times a day. What more could a Mom want? I would see baby completely relaxed into slumber at the breast, and in three seconds flat I would be out to it myself.

Yes, I agree. Babies are programmed to survive, and they do eventually work out that grownups are not much fun in the middle of the night. They do get it, in their own time, if allowed to get the milk factory running smoothly first, which is their main priority.

(Hey, I just remembered that lovely thing that happens when baby is almost asleep and starting an obviously delightful dream. A big smile comes over his face, and he grins from ear to ear, while still sucking!! That used to just break me up!)

Cheers

Louise

ps. Re the milk coming in. I told you so. Nya-nya!

hi mae
One other thing I learned the hard way first time round was to stay a million miles away from baby 'management' books. These days, the bookshop shelves are stacked with reassuring sounding guides which promise you the 'knack' of looking after your baby, getting him/her to sleep through the night, wean themselves, change their own nappies etc by the age of 6 weeks.

For first time mums tossed on an exhausted sea of anxiety and conflicting advice, they seem such a good idea at first but, in my experience, that way madness lies. Just when you're at your most vulnerable to internal and external pressure, when everything's new and the learning curve feels totally insurmountable, comes something which tells you never to trust your own instincts, only some set of rules - explicit or implicit - that will guarantee you an instantly manageable baby. When I'm sure you remember (and I'm reminded of nightly at the moment!) there ain't no such thing!

My (wonderfully sane) mum was amazed how much BS there has been published since she had me (when all there was avialable was Dr Spock and whatever tips you got from your fellow mums). But there's a whole industry out there and it's as full of dogma, 'my way or the highway' and subjective twaddle dressed up as 'wisdom' as any other.

Your daughter's lucky to have a lovely mum to hand too, who can step in and give her a break when she needs one. This is often really helpful at night, since I found with my first daughter it wasn't so much the regular night awakenings as the waiting for her to go back to sleep afterwards that did my head in. Having someone to hand who can take the baby off you for an hour or so at 3am so you can go back to sleep, even if it's just one night a week or a fortnight, can be so helpful.

I'm sure you're just the support she needs!

Mumtogirls London

those baby books nearly destroyed my dd. between the baby books and the bad advice I was getting from the ped and my friends, she (and I) was a crying mess nonstop for almost three months. when finally I tossed the books in the trash, stopped picking up the phone and stopped listening to the ped and started following my heart. baby wanted to nurse 24/7? well why the hell not? I just couldn't believe that would be bad for her. certainly not any worse than withholding the breast for two hours so that she'd ???what exactly??? while she screamed and rooted at everything.
and that, my friends, ::::::chuckle:::::: was the beginning. I used to be, in my pre-baby life, very mainstream, very medical minded, pretty much the polar opposite of what I am today. so thank G-d for colicky babies ; )

...and super crunchy mom, I agree wholeheartedly with the previous posters.
You can have so much rest while nursing! My almost 7 month old sometimes nurses through the night, and sleeps a lot during the day. It is good for me, b/c I can play more with my bigger girls and nurse my 2 yo a lot during the day.
Anyone wonders why I have menopausal symptoms? lol

Liv

Hi All

In the 1980's I had Penelope Leach's Baby and Child whom I soon realised did not have all the answers, and passed off a lot of general ballpark norms as accurate facts, but she did have some good stuff in there as well.

The one who really saved me was William Sears' Creative Parenting. Again, there were some things that didn't sit naturally with me, but on the whole his philosophy gave me permission to follow my instincts, and give these tiny, naked babies everything they needed until they could provide it for themselves. There was little in the way of 'baby management', but a lot of listening to the baby's needs and allowing myself to respond.

Yes, Granolamom, I did get plenty of sleep and rest with three under five, most of it with a baby attached, and much of it with a toddler sleeping beside me as well. I didn't get a lot of other stuff done, and I didn't do much outside of home, except for keeping house and training as a voluntary breastfeeding counsellor which fed my mental needs. DH was building his practise up and was working long hours, six days a week, so the prospect of his getting up to babies at night and helping around the home was out of fairyland. It didn't take long to figure that DS1's need to be at the breast from 6pm to 9pm every night for the first three months was not negotiable. Once we figured that out, the evenings were peaceful. I guess after a whole day in the real world he was just about ready to go back to the womb at that time of the day, and attached to the breast was about as close as he would get!

My Mum was 160km away, but came to visit and help for a few days every month or so, but she was 70 when DS1 was born. Her help was holding babies and reading to toddlers, and playing with them so I could get on with the things that needed two hands. How grateful I was for her patience and her love of her grandchildren. She, the poor darling was, in 1953, a victim of Dr Truby King's control freak style parenting and walked the floor for hours with me screaming for food. No wonder I was only nursed for 3 months. It nearly drove my Mum and Dad mad, but this was only a few years after WWII, and discipline, self-control and obedience to the unmarried, childless, Child Health Nurse was compulsory, so we all suffered along. She loved seeing me parenting by my own instincts and she was at last allowed to follow her own instincts as well.

I figured that we needed basic household hygiene, nourishing food, clean dishes, cleanish clothes, shelter and warmth, and lots of nurturing love. That was all, during that time.

Our kids have all grown up without hospitalisation or allergies or food poisoning, and they all still have all their fingers and toes, so I guess we did OK.

DH's nephew and his wife had their first baby just last week and are going through those initial adjustments. It just occurred to me last night while I was preparing dinner (without a screaming newborn) that the baby instinctively knows everything it needs to know. It is up to the parents and other close adults to figure it out from the baby's limited signals. Trying to 'manage' a newborn is a bit like herding cats. To be a content Mum you just have to be content to work around them.

It must be an enormous challenge for women my niece-in-law, who is a litigation lawyer, engaging in control and powerplays during her working day, to let go of the need to be in control all the time. It is indeed paradoxical that little warm, pink, beguiling babies can reduce competent, professional women to tears from feelings of inadequacy and fear!

Mae, I am sure that with your warm, supporting nature, this little family of yours will do just fine! And I am sure that NIL will do just fine too!

Cheers

Louise

I read your story and had to post quickly. This is quite an impulsive reaction I know. I'll read the other post as soon as I'm done. First of all, I'm an advocate for genital integrity especially for those who can't speak for themselves. Bluntly, your daughter should sue that doctor for reducing her son's normal healthy male anatomy. The forskin is not a birth defect! She should take pictures of his injury and contact this lawyer: David J Llewellyn from Atlanta, GA. He has won several cases that sound just like grandson's.

The other thing, you might be interested in this film called, "The Business of Being Born" by Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein (both are Jewish and both did not circumcise their boys). Riki had her second son at home. The first was a hosptial birth gone wrong.

http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/dvd.php

You'll understand why that doctor behaved the way she did. Its almost as if there is a formula to get a section out of a laboring mother. C-Sections is a lucurative business!

I'm sorry your daughter had such a traumatic experience. At least they both survived. Hugs to you mama. Hold your daughter tight. Hope she is healing well. I'm happy for you! Newest additions are a joy! :)

Slightly off topic: in response to alemama post on the ICAN awareness.

I read your site and fell to tears. It is truly a worthy cause!

I love that you're reaching out to teen fathers too.

from the site:
"At one point someone said the way for a man's body to rock is to be supportive of his partner in birth and parenting and a number of young men in the audience stood up and applauded."

That is so amazing! Now, all we need to do is get a movement similar to this one and empower fathers (and mothers) to say NO to unwarrented gential reduction surgery on healthy new baby boys and healthy male children! Maybe 'Intact America' can do something like that...

Saw your picture too, you're really beautiful alemama. I'm amazed that you made that sling from a scarf. I support ICAN even tho I've never had a cesarean. I'm apart of that group from facebook.

Thats another thing, FL has a 80% c-section rate, I've heard... sounds right to me. Is that right? I'm going to do some research on that. I forget where I read that statistic.

FL has an 80% c/s rate?! that's insane! and I though my part of town's stats (50%) were out of control.

This site says 70% . Thats still very high.

http://www.unnecesarean.com/blog/2009/5/9/kendall-regional-in-florida-bo...