cystocele worse with pain

Dear Kaismom:

What happened to you sounds serious. Did your doctor offer anything helpful? I was wondering what "fallen completely" means, anatomically speaking. And, how are you doing in the aftermath? A virtual hug to you!

We are in different stages of life, as I am post-menopausal and you are more-or-less post-partum. My prolapsed bladder remained relatively stable for a year. It was fine through June, even with some international travel thrown in. Since mid-July or so, I have felt all sorts of twinges and heaviness in my abdomen, and the cystocele hangs down lower and leaks more often. It makes me think that some ligaments just gave up and let go.

What is the future prospect for women once that has occurred? How do we tell what really is happening? Do you reach a point where the WW natural approach can't deal with the failure of bodily structures? I'm actually pretty scared right now, and I haven't felt this depressed since my POP first made itself known.

I will go see the uro-gyn doctor next month. If he recommends surgery, I don't know what I'll say. I don't want to be forever altered unnaturally, as cystocele repair surgery tends to do. However, the "natural" progression of my POP isn't too much fun either. If Louise or Christine could chime in on this, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

Saddleup

Dear WalkTall:

Thank you for the interesting suggestion. Do you think acupuncture helps strengthen anything internal? I must say I don't understand it at all, being of a Western mindset when it comes to medicine. I know we have at least one very reputable acupuncturist in our area, so I will consider checking that out.

Saddleup

Hi Saddleup,

I’m sorry to hear of your continuing problems, but you are a bright spirit and I think you will eventually understand what you need to do to improve your condition.

First of all, I think your suspicions that the Detrol had negative effects on the overall condition of your pelvic connective tissue is probably accurate. How classic that it is given “just” for the detrusor muscle, as if the surrounding fascia wasn’t loaded with receptors for many types of molecules as well. From what I understand, it is a calcium-channel antagonist, which probably means interrupting the process that causes tone to the tissues.

The inflammatory enzyme “5-liopxygenase (5-LOX)” is also present in fascia (btw, you don’t have actual “ligaments”, but thickenings of the same fascia that surrounds your organs and ultimately attaches to bone). The end result of the action of this enzyme are molecules called leukotrienes that deliver hydrogen peroxide into tissues. HP is a super oxygen radical that causes much of the destruction associated with disease.

We are referring to this process of tissue-breakdown as “inflammation”, which can be a precursor to more serious disease, or the steady, low-grade fuel that results in weak connective tissue.

Thus far, the Whole Woman work has revolved around posture, but when you also include an anti-inflammatory diet the improvements are exponential. I believe many women will find this to be true. I have been researching this for quite some time and now believe that almost all of us are “on fire”.

One of the solutions is to severely restrict Omega-6 essential fats and increase Omega-3. The balance should be about 2:1. Many people in our country are eating a diet of 25:1!! If you want to know why Americans are becoming so stupid, that is the smoking gun. The brain is largely DHA from fish oil and Omega-3 and we use this fat for eyesight and many other vital processes.

The subject of 5-LOX inhibitors is more difficult. There are none presently on the market and any pharmaceutical types will probably come with risks. There are powerful herbals in this category, but this subject is more complicated. Kiki is taking capsules of turmeric, which she is finding helpful.

The issues surrounding diet are simple, but unfortunately not easy and this is what I will present in the upcoming dvd.

It also sounds like you are not fully utilizing the posture. All I can tell you is that it helps more than anything. Do you have a wide stool that you can straddle while pulling up into the WW posture? If you can sit this way for long stretches (I sit at my computer this way), you will begin to see the benefit in moving your bladder strongly forward. This is the most beneficial seated posture for cystocele. When you stand up, realize that a strong lumbar curve will keep it in much the same position. I know now it falls right back down, but improvements happen slowly over time.

A major hurdle you need to get past is worrying that it will eventually fall down to your knees. The lowest vaginal connections to pelvic support structures prevent the bladder from ever bulging out more than about the size of half a tennis ball (in the woman with her uterus). The worst case scenario is that you would have to manually lift it up to pee. Yes, it would be quite bothersome and uncomfortable, but I can’t see a reason why you should ever get to that point.

There is every possibility of reversing your symptoms to where you were when you traveled to London and even beyond that. Understand that there is a negative process - both structural and biochemical - that is causing the downturn.

We do not have our active form of estrogen any longer and the biggest problem with that is the anti-oxidant (and anti-5-LOX!) qualities it imparted to many tissues in the body. Outside estrogen does not offer the same benefit. What we need are anti-oxidants rather than HRT.

Urogynecologists are the first to admit that there is no surgical cure for cystocele. They may not put it in those terms, but the truth is there all the same. There is some possibility that your symptoms would be improved and that you would remain continent after anterior colporrhaphy. However, the slim chances of that occurring are reflected in the surgical picture of our time. Mesh is all the rage (manufacturer’s, doctors, and post-surgery women have different definitions of ‘rage’) because anterior repair does not work. Sub-urethral slings are implanted along side the repair because reducing the bulge changes the angle of the urethra, often resulting in serious incontinence. Probe your doctor for these simple realities and he will have to agree.

I believe in your ability to improve your condition, Saddleup. Although most of us have been subjected to factors that increase our chances of experiencing prolapse at some point in our lives, generally prolapse is not something that just *happens*. It is the result of postural, diet, and lifestyle factors that are malleable and subject to reversal.

But only you can do the work.

Christine

There is nothing to "do" with the lower body posture. If you walk with your feet pointing straight ahead, this rotates your femurs inward and correctly aligns the pelvis, as long as your lower belly is relaxed and your chest lifted (shoulders down, upper back flat, and head pulled up at the back of the crown). ;)

Hi, Christine:

I was hoping that you would still be "lurking" here even when you're officially absent! Thanks.

So, about that Detrol. Is the day before a cross-country car trip an okay time to ditch the stuff? It really has not cut down on my incontinence episodes. I had no idea it could mess up the muscle tone of surrounding tissues. Grrr.

What is your opinion of Celebrex, which contains a COX 2 inhibitor (I think)? Is that good or bad for us with POP issues?

I just purchased some Omega-3 capsules made from salmon. What quantity is beneficial?

Thank you for suggesting a stool. I will try to find one that works for me.

Mostly, thanks for saying that I can get back to a more improved condition. I can hardly stand myself right now bexause I am so angry and depressed. Bring on the anti-inflammatory foods.

Saddleup

Hi Saddleup

I took Celebrex every day for at least two years. It truly was amazing how it loosened me up. That was before I discovered stretching would untie my knots. I dropped the Celebrex like a redhot coal, cos of the other longterm damage risks. I have also used anti-prostiglandin drugs like Ponstan (mefanimic acid) but they are horrible during peri/menopause cos they can make menopause symptoms worse. Now I know a little about Christine's work on inflammation I can see why!!

I figure that all these anti-inflammatory medications have potentially damaging side effects. If they can affect the body positively, you can bet they are affecting it negatively as well. They are like pouring water on a big fire. The flames go out but they don't remove the fuel, which is the only way to put out a fire properly. I only ever take them for 48 hours max now, if I have done something really stupid, to reduce the inflammation enough to be able to stretch properly again.

Now I think about it, the time I was taking Celebrex was just before my POPs got worse. Co-incidence? Perhaps, perhaps not. I just deal with what I have to deal with.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that balancing my body is going to happen by reducing some of the things that it deals with, particularly foods, rather than adding more foods. I eat too much already. The other thing I can do is to add different foods in the place of the foods I reduce, so that there is more variety in my diet. Supplements are very concentrated, so I figure that they are just as likely to de-balance my body in a different direction, which kinda defeats the purpose. For me this means little meat, a little more fish, and more nuts, pulses and seeds, which will allow the macronutrients to balance themselves better. I will be getting less omega 6's from the dead animal flesh and more omega 3's from the fish, nuts, seeds and pulses. Less bread means less butter (omega 6) and less gluten. More green stuff and legumes means more calcium and other good things. That's what I am hoping. The dermatitis on my hand is getting smaller, and I am getting less body pain, so something good is happening!

Cheers

Louise

I am so concerned for you. I hate that you are in pain-I wonder what it is from? Could it be misalignment? Or Pubic symphysis disfunction? Have you tried rest, ice, compression etc...for the injury? I encourage you to consider other reasons for your pain- nerve damage? or entrapment? Gosh I just don't know- but that kind of pain and a little one to take care of is not a great combination.
Hopefully the silver lining is that now you have natures pessary and nothing will be falling out!

HI all,
I'm just back from a trip and exhausted, so need to sleep...but quick post!
As Christine said, i've been experimenting with turmeric and the diet for a few weeks now. The results have been mind blowing. And, I feel like i only know a part of the puzzle--i can't wait to hear more from Christine!
I eat quite healthily, but when i looked at what i was really eating i was amazing at just how much Omega 6 i was getting w/o realising it. When I looked at ratios, eek! Those lovely nuts i ate tons of have ratios of 30 or 40 omega 6's to every omega 3... My innocent oat cakes are made with vegetable oil. non dairy milks have vege oil. and i used some margerine as my little one is allergic to dairy. eek! forget the curry paste, healthy bean stews i'd get at the health shop if i didn't pack lunch...all full of it!

So, i had a few very good weeks when i cut out all the 6's I could find except for a few oat cakes, and i personally in the short term chose to take fish oil--my main reason was for my LS & I wanted to go full force--I didn't expect it to impact on the rest of me. I also cut out anything inflammatory ie caffeine, sugar etc... and as Christine said, took turmeric. Wow, did i feel amazing. my itching went way way down...my POPs felt fab (what POPS????). but also my energy shot up, my pelvic pain subsided, i lost weight despite eating a ton of butter---i felt fabulous!
then i ate horribly for a few days and bam, it was all there again.
went away on vacation and ate a ton of fresh fresh sea food every day, and again cut out most of the nasties and felt a good deal better--not as good, but then i'm not eating as well...
thing is i know i'm not quite there yet as my LS is still there though much less, and also i'm not a huge fan of fish oil (there aren't enough fish in the sea for me to do this for eh next 60 years!) so i know we need a better solution--which is what Christine is working on, so it will come... but in the mean time, i feel like i'm part way along a great start.

main challenge is it's thrown my digestion--thinking it could be the turmeric? or just need to tweek my diet to replace the fibre i lost as i cut out a few things i would eat a lot of ie nuts and some other stuff. but i'll get there.

anyway, i encourage everyone and anyone to try this! I know Christine has more to share on this that is coming soon (i'll be first in line to find out!!!)...but until then i think even moving in the direction of getting balanced could impact massively on all of us here.... and then, when we get the full picture, it's realy just tweeking to do.

(sorry, hope this makes sense, i'm absolutely wiped out and heading to bed now!)

Kiki

Hi Kiki

What a heart-warming post, it's very interesting and thrilling to hear about your progress with diet, so glad for you.

Your comments about your diet made me realise that I'm more ignorant then I thought I was about how to get the balance right with Omega 3s and 6s, because both are needed. I assumed that it would be enough to cut out the polyunsaturated veg oils and processed foods, using only butter and olive oil and eating oily fish a few times a week, plus a fish oil supplement, things I've been doing for years because of other health issues. I hadn't though about avoiding beans, oats, nuts etc. There seem to be so many things to think about here. I rely on quite a high fibre diet to avoid constipation, which aggravates the rectocele obviously. It seems that you've done some research here so any tips would be useful.

I used to take psyllium but stopped because it gave me terrible bloating so I'd be a bit short on fibre if I stopped the beans etc

Thanks, Judith

HI Judith,
First of all, sorry i wasn't very clear! Beans and oats are fine--it's the stuff they get mixed with. I had not realised the extent to which vegetable oil is used in EVERYTHING. Oatcakes, those healthy stews, Soy/rice/oatmilk you name it, it's in there. wow it's hard to avoid! And i always thought I ate well!

I know Christine will soon give us a lot more wisdom on all this. My idea at the moment is avoid veg oils and olive oil--just use butter if i can. as for more 3's, i'm not totally sure. Yes, you can eat more fish and take a supplement. I don't really like fish oil--what happens to the rest of the fish? Is it sustainable? I haven't read enough about it. But, I'm not sure of the alternatives, but I know this is what christine is researching like mad at the moment so the wisdom will soon be with us ;-)

so no, i think the beans are fine, I still eat my oatmeal, I eat yogurt (1:1 ratio), fruit, veg...
beyond that I need to do more reading, but I think quite simply eating really health unprocessed natural foods will get us a good way down this path!

let us know how you get on...
Kiki

Hi Kiki

Thank you for that prompt reply, v helpful. Just one thing - I thought that olive oil was ok because it's mono-unsaturated, but maybe that's a red herring, so to speak, . Judith xxx

I'm just going on the bit I've read from Christine and the short reading I've done. There are so many layers to the health benefits of every food we eat. This is about it's inflammatory properties, not the other issues. So, whilst olive oil might be considered a good fat, it has a lot of omega 6's in it--ratio of around 10 omega 6's to every 1 omega 3 (ie 10:1).
Christine talks about getting the ratio down to a 2:1

Nuts are also high in 6's, but i just read that you then need to look at how much omega 6 they have, as you can then balance it with your 3's...some have a high ratio (ie 60:1), but actually very little 6 in them... yeek is it confusing!
but we'll get there!

Hi Kiki I wonder if I've missed something that Christine wrote where she mentions olive oil, as it doesn't ring a bell. Sometimes it's quite hard to go back and find things. Re nuts, I think walnuts are supposed to be good for omega 3 but they're also supposed to be acid-forming so I don't eat many of them. Yes, you're right, there's alot to grasp but I'm sure we'll get there in the end. Judith xx

I've been doing much research (personal) into anti inflammatory diet. I have read that olive oil is relatively low in it's Omega 6:Omega3 ratio. I've read that it's about 3:1 (which is not 2:1i know). However, almost all diets (and I've been sticking to clearly well researched ones) recommend the use of olive oil and/or butter as fat.

I realise that I have by no means embarked on the research that Christine has but thought I'd share these findings. I'll be interested to hear Christine's findings on this one. I too can't recall her discussion of olive oil.

Cheers
fc11

Thanks FC12. I suddenly remembered about coconut oil which is also supposed to be one of the "good" ones, though not necessarily with regard to Omega balance, I'll have to check it out. It's good because it remains stable at high temeperatures. I did try cooking with coconut butter once and hated it - made the food taste of coconut (well duh, you might say). But I've read that there is a coconut oil which has been slightly warmed in processing, still ok, but no coconut taste. Judith

I just made my first curry paste tonight with coconut oil instead of the ready made curry pastes with vegie oil...let's hope it works well! (still cooking).

re olive oil, i read 13:1 or 10:1...wow, there is so much info out there it's hard to find reliable answers! i just decided butter was a safe bet, coconut a close second. and i love butter, so i can't go wrong there...any excuse to eat it! ;-)

I'll let you know how the curry works

Kiki

Thanks Kiki, for your earlier reply to me. I couldntrecall how to log back on, but I've beend reading sometimes. Still a lot of read. Thanks for the links too and I now know what the abbreviations like POP stand for!
I'll reply later-actually wrote up a long reply yesterday and then it disappeared somehow and went back a page and I couldnt recover..just wanted to know I appreciated your friendliness and offer of help:)
Jandi

That curry paste sounds terrific- any chance of a recipe?
I use coconut oil and butter and I've been into all the nutrition stuff so far I've read here for many many years:-) At least I know I agree with all of the nutrition stuff so far:-)
Jandi
PS I do have a question as to what oil is nonirritating when put in the vagine (youk)- I'm still self conscious of this stuff.. I have pessaries made for progesterone and they use all the worng oils- and actually I suspect them of causing the prolapse , either the oils or the progesterone or progesterone withdrawal morelike.. but its only a possibility so far. Will ask in more detail in a separate question with correct heading, after I do some more reading and learn more.
Jandi, and many thanks