Standing and Walking seem to create discomfort with pop for me

HI Dreamer,
Oh it's frustrating I know! I didn't see change for a good few months. It was really hard to believe it was really going to happen. But maybe it's worth looking at a few things? How sure do you feel that you are in the correct posture, and how much of the time? What are you doing in the day? Whilst I think eventually you can come to a place where you can do more strenuous activities, it seems to me that whilst the body is finding new balance, giving it a break from lifting etc can help. Diet? Have you considered trying Christine's anti inflammatory diet suggestions? Are you doing Kegels? They can exhaust the muscles, and make things worse especially if doing a lot.

Have a great vacation--it sounds amazing, and will I am sure be!!!

If you keep finding you aren't making progress, maybe your next holiday could take you to NM to see Christine--I have so much faith hearing the stories of so many women that this can and does work! But maybe for some we need to see it in action and have Christine help us get it truly right, to really get our bodies into the right place.

Enjoy your holiday!
Kiki

Dreamer, I am still working on the WW posture and exercises and have not found any change in my cystocele. I do no lifting, sit and stand in WW posture, but it has been 9 months and no change. The only difference is I don't think about it 24/7, but it's still there, big bulge in my vagina everyday. I found firebreathing made it worse, so I stopped that. I am lucky I don't have any incontinence, but urinating takes me forever. I still say that most of the success reported on this forum is from the younger gals, their bodies are still producing a good amount of estrogen which is the majority of the healing process. I am close to post menopause and since estrogen is in short supply these days, I think my cystocele is what it is. I will stay away from the surgery route, not because I believe the all the horror stories, just because I don't feel at this time the cystocele is ruining my life. When it gets worse, and I'm sure it will, I won't hesitate to speak with a qualified surgeon. Many of the women who used to post under the menopause forum are gone. I don't know why, but I would like to hear sometime where they are in this journey. If I still haven't given this work enough time I will keep trying but I have to say I don't think it's the answer for us older gals with diminishing hormone levels.

***EDIT***

I have removed my ferocious post to you, Connie. Our kinder and gentler angels have given you much more valuable responses.

Peace,

Christine

wish I could look into my crystal ball and tell you 'yes!'

but all I can say is that I think that the more consistent you are with the posture/exercises/etc the more likely it is to work.
it worked for me, very slowly and not to the degree that it worked for some others, but enough so that I don't think about it and I am living my life the way I would even without POP. more or less, probably alot healthier than I'd be if I didn't have POP.

I don't know any women who've admitted to POP either, but a number of women my age who've had surgical 'fixer uppers' a few months pp. if I ask any questions they clam up real quick.

this can't be easily compared to other muscle groups that respond to traditional exercise programs because the primary goal here is not to strengthen muscle. its to change posture and encourage overstretched tissue to return to its original shape. takes longer and even when you do see improvement I would think you would need to do some maintanence work or things would likely get worse again.

I hope you enjoy your dream vacation to Alaska, my il's were there a few years back and it really was a dream vacation for them.

keep at it, dreamer8

Connie I want you to consider the brain/body connection. You say "when" it gets worse. Your body hears you. The first step in healing is belief that you actually can. Forget about estrogen. Your mind is more powerful than estrogen any old day. Think about men your age. They get injured, they heal. Do you think they have tons of estrogen just hanging around? You cut your hand- it heals. You break a bone- it grows back together. What makes you think a little fascia can't do the same? Do you think the vagina heals differently from the rest of the body? You can move your bladder up. I know you can....
It is a wonderful thing to not leak urine- I wonder why it takes you so long to urinate? Have you tried the hands and knees method?
I wish the posture was working better for you. I wonder if you are not doing the firebreathing the right way. For that matter, do you feel you have a great understanding of the wholewoman posture? Maybe you need a just a tweak and you'd have it! Have you tired Nauli yet? Man those two exercises together really really help.
I think it is strange that you don't believe the surgical horror stories. Of course there are bad outcomes to surgery and the women who are brave enough to stand up and say "oh no I made the wrong choice and I feel worse" should be given at least our consideration and good faith. Why in the world would women report bad outcomes that don't exist? What would be the purpose? And if you don't believe them then at least consider the repeat surgical rates- Perhaps you intended to say you are not frightened away from the idea of surgery by the horror stories- I could understand that easily.
Keep asking questions. See what we can come up with to give you some relief from that bulge.....

I think my very early posts are not archived here anymore, but I wish they were available to those of us who work at this for so long and don't see change. It took me close to a year to see significant (ie measurable) change in my cystocele. and that's with estrogen. I was barely even bf then (my youngest was 18 mo) and back to my regular cycles.

I think we each come to this with our own individual set of strengths and weaknessness; be they physical/emotional/spiritual/etc and that in part determines the rate and extent of change.
Personally, I find (and not just with POP but in general) that my mind/body connection is no small thing. I've seen this in relation to my chronic back pain and migraines and fibromyalgia, and I have no reason to believe that my expectations don't affect my POP as well.

way back when I was still a newbie here (maybe three months in or so) I posted 'keeping it real' or something like that. I remember quite clearly how I felt that day, frustrated that it wasn't working, jealous of newer members who had already seen results. and me, nothing. I read and reread the book, hoping to find the secret passage that I must have missed, because I was doing everything and still no change.
and then it dawned upon me, I still didn't wholeheartedly believe this would -or could- work. I still held onto the phone number of a urogyn surgeon a friend had recommended for 'just incase'. the Physical Therapist in me still wasn't buying this new way of describing female posture or the fact that kegels weren't all they were cracked up to be. I still hadn't explored the depth of my emotional pain and what else in my life it might be related to.
so, having nothing to lose, I threw myself into facing all of that, challenging many of my beliefs that I had held close for a long time. I guess you could say I did some housecleaning, tossed out some things that were no longer working, added some new. it took time. and during that time I stayed in posture ALL THE TIME. I posted incessantly (thanks to all the women here who put up with my redundant questions!) to clarify the posture. and then one day I checked and noticed that the bulge was significantly smaller. not small, mind you, but well inside and definitely not as large.

once I learned the firebreathing I saw another jump in terms of progress. but I will say that even though I was by then an 'expert' in the posture, the firebreathing took me a looooooong time to perfect. I wonder, connie, if maybe something in the way you were doing it wasn't making things worse? its not an easy exercise (I didn't think) to learn from text. or even video. I think its the kind of thing that is probably best learned from someone else, who can spot you and really see whats going on.

now, I am not one to say that there is no place ever for surgical intervention. but I think that expecting things to deteriorate to a point where you're so impaired that surgery as a last option becomes your best option, is not giving yourself the space to allow anything else to happen.

honestly I didn't just copy your post! we're just posting/thinking in tandem tonight : )

and yes, nauli is amazing. definitely worth a try.

yes that is amazing. My three bigs are sleeping and dh is loving the baby to sleep right now so I had a spare minute- I don't know about you but before I answer a post I try to open up to the possibility of guidance from a force larger than myself- perhaps that is what happened :):)

Just thinking, for the negative thoughts...EFT is fabulous. It's about tapping meridians and saying what you are worried about / feeling / physically feeling, to break the negative energies in the body. I have found it so amazing for letting go of my anxieties, especially with my LS as I watched my body change in scary new ways! It meant I could unpick the huge fears and let them go. I'm thinking Jacqui it could be good for the depression / anxiety... But also Connie, for letting go of the "when i need surgery" kind of feeling as I agree, we have to believe for our body to follow. Yes, there might be some change otherwise, but the true change happens when every cell in our body believes. We can literally think ourselves ill, but we can also do the reverse. I think that if we throw ourselves into something believing it will work, thinking positively, and knowing we have nothing to lose so we are going to give it our best shot, we have the best chance.

I know with my LS, I have tried everything. Christine just has to think a new idea and I'm onto it (this may drive her crazy, sorry if it feels like I"m lapping at your heels Christine!) but it's because I truly believe a natural answer is out there and i have to believe that 100%. I don't see steroids as an answer (though occasionally use mild ones if i'm in agony as relief, maybe that blocks my healing, I don't know--not quite as brave or physically able to live with it as Christine, but I'm trying), but if I believe they are the answer, will the other stuff work? And it hasn't all. Makes me laugh when i think of the journey (ah, the maca--sex drive extraordinaire!!!). But I am so glad I've thrown myself onto that journey--it's been hard, but i feel like it's coming to its resting place with the anti inflamatory diet work...and i know it's worth it. And on that journey I found EFT, which has helped me let go of so many things--anxieties, bad memories, physical symptoms--it is amazing to me.

If Alemama can remind me how to insert links so nicely I'll post a few links about EFT this weekend...

Kiki

Please don't think you are alone in this- Pelvic organ prolapse is like a dirty word- so much so that people have developed goofy benign terms to describe the surgery for it- like 'bladder tack' as in 'oh I just went in to get my bladder tacked up'- yeish. There is no way you are alone. If you simply look at how many hysterectomies are performed at your local hospital each year you can make a good bet that a large percentage of them are for POP. And if that many women are signing up for surgery and not talking about it you gotta know there are at least that many out there who choose not to do anything at all.
I know in my extended family two of my aunts have had surgery for POP- but when they talk about it- they say things like...' I have an appointment to talk about my woman issues'
And then of course in my mom world I know tons of women with POP- they say things like 'since having child I can't make tampons work' or 'There is so much pressure on my perineum when pick up my baby' or 'when I run I feel like everything is going to fall out' or 'don't make me laugh I need to pee'
it goes on and on- and when I hear these comments I take the time to ask a few questions and it doesn't take long to find out that these ladies have prolapse- often times they have it and don't even know there is a name for it- I sure didn't. I had heard of hysterectomy before- but the work cystocele and rectocele were never in my vocabulary.
It is hard to be so in touch with your body-but in the end (after a good long while) it pays off and you don't even think much about it.

Why edit your post Christine? Didn't you have anything to say that would help or encourage us that are struggling? Or do you only want succes stories? I have always found the women on the forum to be very understanding even to women like me that have doubts about the WW work. You on the other hand are the reason some of us feel there is a problem with WW approach because you can be so rude and defensive. I'm sorry if you don't want to hear from the women that haven't become cheerleaders of the WW techniques, but newbies should know this approach isn't the key for everyone with POP like you would want them to believe. By the way, why are you still lurking around the forums? I thought you were taking an extended leave from the website. I guess you have to make sure everyone is staying in line. Another question, are you still an RN? Why did you go into nursing if you have such a dislike for medical profession?

Hi Connie,

Tonight I am working late into the evening on my computer and checking into WW every now and then.

I think if you look back into your history here you will see that I have encouraged you several times. I have spent years encouraging women - many of whom took months and countless posts to understand and finally see results.

I have been thinking in between the lines of writing my project about posting in the Emotional Issues Forum about this thread - but I truly don’t have the time right now to round out my thoughts on the matter. You can post all you want about your struggles. The bottom line on our interaction is that I ask you to stop responding to other struggling women with sweeping generalizations that these techniques do not work. I think that is a fair request.

To answer your final question, I am still an RN. I am a care-taker by nature and when I began nursing school I thought nursing in a hospital setting had something to do with health. It was a wonderful education.

Christine

I've only just spotted this thread otherwise I'd have replied sooner and right now I'm pushed for time so have to keep it fairly brief but really want to have my say because I think it's important. I'm always bleating on about this and have actually posted a while ago "when you think WW approach isn't working"

I am 52 and I absolutely know for sure that the posture works for me. Can't guarantee most of the exercises because I have a spine problem and do other exercises for my back and whatever else I can do of Christine's.

This is how I know:

1. In a recent very severe flare-up of POP every exercise made it feel worse, as did everything other than lying down - walking, firebreathing, all POP and back exercises, standing, even swimming, you name it.

I eventually got referred to a very experienced cranial osteopath and also a physio whose approach is v similar to WW. And I discovered that, even though I've been with WW for years and have been doing Alexander Technique for 27 years I WAS NOT IN POSTURE WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS. The difference was subtle but there. The reason was because of my back and some other things. With their different interventions to adjust what was going on in my back I was able to get back into posture and POP symptoms went away. Sometimes I slip out of it again and they come back. It gets redressed, by me if I can or by the cranial osteopath if I've lost it again (ie more structural stuff is going on) and hey presto! symptoms go.

I am not typical because I have particular musculo-skeletal stuff going on but that's not the point. The point is that I bet that the women who don't get results from doing WW are not in the posture. If you're not in the posture you won't benefit properly from the exercises and maybe even, as in my case, if you have other physical issues, the exercises will aggravate POP.

I think that this is a great reason for Christine to train physiotherapists because maybe loads of women need some 1 to 1 attention.

Also, although my difficulties stem mainly from my back stuff, there were other factors probably arising from physical adjustments during the pregnancy and birth that could easily apply to any women here.

I would always support any woman's right to make her own choices but I keep bleating on about this, boringly perhaps, just to support anyone feeling discouraged with WW to get themselves thoroughly checked out before giving up on it.

I haven't had time to properly read the replies in this thread so really sorry if I've repeated stuff. Judith

I take issue with this most recent post of yours. This mission you have to make sure newbies know this approach isn't the key for everyone is strange. What is the deal here? Do you not believe in each woman's ability to decide for herself- take what she can use and then leave the rest?
This approach is free! It has no ill effects physically- in other words women who change their posture and see no change are not going to be in any worse shape because they tried something- and they may even like the way they look or feel in other ways beyond prolapse with implementing the changes suggested here. I know dressing differently, eating differently, moving differently can not hurt anyone (different = wholewoman techniques).
I know for me as a newbie I needed hope. I needed it like a life raft while I was swimming in the ocean of my own depression. If someone like you had posted to me telling me 'it doesn't work for everyone' I would have felt terrible. It was hard enough to hear that it could get worse before it got better.
I bet you are frustrated not to be seeing results. I wonder though- in light of this recent post (where you respond only to Christine and not the women who replied to you with suggestions and support) if you really don't believe this can work for you. I can tell you that making half an effort will not yield results. This work is not instant- it is not over night- this is an everyday lifestyle change and it is WORK.
Come on Connie- talk to us. About YOU. What do you think about what we wrote in to you (granolamom and alemama writing almost identical posts for goodness sakes- doesn't that peak your curiosity?), the posts from menopausal women saying WW works for them-don't you want to engage in your life, your work, your health?

Most people are not aware of this, but nursing is distinct from medicine and has been since Florence Nightengale lit her lamp. A physician diagnoses and treats illness, and a nurse diagnoses and treats the human response to illness. Take cancer -- a physician is concerned with how powerful a round of chemo needs to be to eliminate cancerous cells in a patient. A nurse is concerned with how to best position that cancer patient to relieve nausea, how to stimulate appetite, and how to ease pain. So really, an RN training is the perfect background to create something like Whole Woman. Relief of the human response to prolapse . . . . (in this humble opinion, at least)

Bad_mirror...you will make a wonderful nurse! From this side of life I tend to look at medicine as two systems - acuity and chronicity. Acute care is often miraculous, but chronicity is not served well by our current system. Outside of broken bones and ruptured arteries, the system is not great at returning people to health. Actually, the numbers of people killed each year by pills and procedures is staggering.

However, like you, I understood and dearly appreciated what women brought to medicine. Today there are many male nurses and many female doctors, but the system is built upon a cultural foundation with a very strong male/female division of labor and worldview. Nurses (women) ARE and always have been the patient advocates and the system would not have survived without this perspective. Doctors have always been under the watchful eye of the old, wise nurse.

Unfortunately though, this has resulted in many more stressed and burned out nurses than careful and thoughtful doctors. Historically, nowhere on the planet (well, certainly in the nuclear labs at Los Alamos, NM) has there been more absolute male autonomy than in medical institutions. It is absolutely true that doctors can think up an operation at night and perform it the next morning.

Many strong women have brought good things to nursing. But again - outside of acute care sorts of settings - wound care, etc., they have not been able to do much with their talents. Nursing Diagnosis is a perfect case in point. In the 1990s a huge amount of effort went into educational programs to train nurses to diagnose along different and more holistic lines of reasoning than M.D.s. But as far as I know, nothing ever became of it.

I know it’s easily assumed that I hate doctors and the medical system, but that is missing the point entirely. Rather, I believe we need to recognize that only half of the medical industry is serving us well. The other half, frankly, needs to be replaced. I think there needs to be created a valid alternative medical system that deals only with prevention and chronic disease. Hospitals would care for people with infections and broken legs, and greenhouse-like sanctuaries would tend to people with diabetes and cancer. Death would be accepted as natural, and heroic measures to avoid it undesirable.

I wish you all the best in your nursing education and I can’t wait to hear how you respond to the lectures on prolapse!

Please keep us posted.

:) Christine

Thank you for the well wishes. There is certainly a strong emphasis on applying nursing diagnoses at my school and the word holistic is stewn everywhere, so maybe that is good. Yep, I'm absolutely dreading the OB rotation, as I'm sure there will be a lot of tongue biting on my part. I will certainly try to light my prolapse lamp wherever a student nurse can dare! :-)

I really couldn't see lasting improvements until I was over my depressive days. As soon as I arrived at the acceptance phase (now-looking back- I can say I have), things started to change positively. I still have setbacks, but I can see the light at the end of this tunnel.

We are here for you, Connie, don't chicken out! lol

Liv

Hi Dreamer

Glad the cruise went well. I am in fits about the thought of playing pingpong in a heavy swell! It must have been a pretty big ship for pingpong to be possible.

Our family went deep sea fishing a couple of years ago as a birthday trip for DH. This boat was about 15m long and we struck a 4m (13ft) swell once we left the harbour. Until I got very seasick I found that Wholewoman posture was very effective for staying on my feet. After that the seasickness took over, and the rest of the trip was a very expensive and horizontal nightmare for me and DS2. Everyone else stayed upright for the whole trip, but only two fish were caught that day by the whole group of 12 people. I decided not to ever tempt fate again on the open sea. It wasn't my first encounter with seasickness.

I did realise though, that seafaring is very good whole body exercise. I bet your body feels good now.

Cheers

Louise